New Car, But Engine Is Constantly 'Pinging' (Or 'Knocking')

[funlovinkid]

Hi all,

I have a new (2011) Toyota Vios with 5K kilometers on it, which has been through both the 1K and 10K mileage checkups at the Toyota dealer with no problems found. However, the engine is constantly 'pinging' (also known as 'knocking', I believe), regardless of the fuel I use. I always use at least grade 91 'benzene' (not gasohol), which is sometimes marked as '91 Unleaded' at the pump. I took it to the dealership a couple days ago and carefully explained the problem, but they pooh-poohed it and said if there were any problems with the fuel/air mixture (or anything else which could explain the pinging), there would be a warning light on the driver's console. They ended up telling me to get my fuel from either Shell or Esso, and to avoid the other fuel stations. I then filled it up completely with '91 Unleaded' at the nearest Shell station, and the pinging continues.

I know it might help if I start using 95 octane gasohol, but it's the most expensive fuel available at the pump, and it seems ridiculous if it's not necessary. The car is capable of using '91 E20' fuel (which I think is a high-quality gasohol), but I happen to live in Chiang Mai, and I'm told that it's not available here. So I continue to use 91 benzene.

Has anyone else had this problem, and if so, how did you get it resolved? I know that engine pinging actually causes engine damage, and I would like to get this figured out! Many thanks to any thoughts or suggestions.

[transam]

Sounds like an ECU (on board computer) problem. The ride must be connected to a Toyota Main Agent computer which will diagnose the problem.

[stevenl]

I always thought Shell had higher gasohol content than the others, so would have though PTT would be better for you than Shell. But probably the dealer know best.

[mogandave]

Take it to a different service center and be sure to let the service manager know why.

[hansnl]

Knocking (pinging) of petrol engines.

Controlled by knocking sensor

Possible reasons of knocking:

- Ignition

- Wastegate

- Cooling system

The ECU should be able to control the knocking to a value where knocking by high or low rpm is optemised by manupilating the ignition or wastegate.

The cooling system might give troubles uncontrollable by the ECU.

Probable reason

ECU or ECU connector problem;

Knocking sensor;

Wastegate;

Cooling system.

Try to require your dealer to connect the ECU to the computer any Toyota dealer should have.

Read in the correct values.

If well programmed, the ECU should be able to cope with all the different fuels available in Thailand

Sometimes oil on the connectors of the ECU can be the problem.

Cleaning the things might help, if not a new cable should be installed free of charge

The result reading of the ECY should indicate incoming or executing faults from the wastegate, knocking sensor and possibly the cooling system.

If they do not want to do this, call Toyota Thailand.

Explain the problem, and ask them to help you.

Their knowledge of English is sufficient to handle your complaints and solve them.

(Info: chief mechanic Autohuis the Netherlands)

Edited March 19, 2012 by hansnl

[transam]

ECU problem!

Try to require your dealer to connect the ECU to the computer any Toyota dealer should have.

Read in the correct values.

If well programmed, the ECU should be able to cope with all the different fuels available in Thailand

Sometimes oil on the connectors of the ECU can be the problem.

Cleaning the things might help, if not a new cable should be installed free of charge

If they do not want to do this, call Toyota Thailand.

Explain the problem, and ask them to help you.

Their knowledge of English is sufficient to handle your complaints and solve them.

Correct, but a new ride l think will not be troubled by blockages. Can be fixed by competent Toyota dealer.

[funlovinkid]

ECU problem!

Try to require your dealer to connect the ECU to the computer any Toyota dealer should have.

Read in the correct values.

If well programmed, the ECU should be able to cope with all the different fuels available in Thailand

Sometimes oil on the connectors of the ECU can be the problem.

Cleaning the things might help, if not a new cable should be installed free of charge

If they do not want to do this, call Toyota Thailand.

Explain the problem, and ask them to help you.

Their knowledge of English is sufficient to handle your complaints and solve them.

Correct, but a new ride l think will not be troubled by blockages. Can be fixed by competent Toyota dealer.

Many thanks, guys! I have an appointment scheduled for later this week with the same Toyota dealership, and now I'm armed with some very useful knowledge.

[WarpSpeed]

Knocking (pinging) of petrol engines.

Controlled by knocking sensor

Possible reasons of knocking:

- Ignition

- Wastegate

- Cooling system

The ECU should be able to control the knocking to a value where knocking by high or low rpm is optemised by manupilating the ignition or wastegate.

The cooling system might give troubles uncontrollable by the ECU.

Probable reason

ECU or ECU connector problem;

Knocking sensor;

Wastegate;

Cooling system.

Try to require your dealer to connect the ECU to the computer any Toyota dealer should have.

Read in the correct values.

If well programmed, the ECU should be able to cope with all the different fuels available in Thailand

Sometimes oil on the connectors of the ECU can be the problem.

Cleaning the things might help, if not a new cable should be installed free of charge

The result reading of the ECY should indicate incoming or executing faults from the wastegate, knocking sensor and possibly the cooling system.

If they do not want to do this, call Toyota Thailand.

Explain the problem, and ask them to help you.

Their knowledge of English is sufficient to handle your complaints and solve them.

(Info: chief mechanic Autohuis the Netherlands)

Yep a new car should not be knocking on nearly any available fuel but most especially not on a benzine fuel, there's a problem and of course they don't mind passing it off as it will probably last well through your warrantee without showing it's teeth but then................................................... It's your baby..

[RakJungTorlae]

Octane rating for Vios is 93, there for 95 will get ride of that knock. gasohol 91 should also clear it up but as you state its hard to find up north, ill would go the 95. do what i did, slap a LPG converter in there.

[thaicbr]

try a different dealer

[funlovinkid]

try a different dealer

I have another, completely different question--after having the initial 1K kilometer checkup done at the Toyota dealer, I noticed that the fan belt was loose, as evidenced by the fact that it would squeal every time I started the car. I took the car back to Toyota, and they fixed it in about 5 minutes. But it made me wonder: what were they doing during the 1K checkup that would require them to loosen the fan belt? Normally, this is something that would only be required if something needed replacing, like an alternator or an AC compressor, but I'm having trouble imagining what part of a 1K checkup would require this. Of course, paranoid as I happen to be, I couldn't help but wonder if they were taking some of the new components off the engine and replacing them with used or refurbished stuff, and reselling the originals.

Anybody out there know if there would be a legitimate reason for a loose fan belt after a 1K checkup? After my recent encounter with them related to the 'pinging', I'm beginning to have doubts about this dealer.

[sirchai]

You should go to a garage where people actually know what they're doing. Could be ignition, knocking sensor, etc.

A check with a computer based soft- and hardware will show what's wrong. Ordinary places can't check or fix it. You'll have to have the right software, Toyota might be the best address.

[sirchai]

try a different dealer

I have another, completely different question--after having the initial 1K kilometer checkup done at the Toyota dealer, I noticed that the fan belt was loose, as evidenced by the fact that it would squeal every time I started the car. I took the car back to Toyota, and they fixed it in about 5 minutes. But it made me wonder: what were they doing during the 1K checkup that would require them to loosen the fan belt? Normally, this is something that would only be required if something needed replacing, like an alternator or an AC compressor, but I'm having trouble imagining what part of a 1K checkup would require this. Of course, paranoid as I happen to be, I couldn't help but wonder if they were taking some of the new components off the engine and replacing them with used or refurbished stuff, and reselling the originals.

Anybody out there know if there would be a legitimate reason for a loose fan belt after a 1K checkup? After my recent encounter with them related to the 'pinging', I'm beginning to have doubts about this dealer.

If you've got only one belt with a permanent tensioner, a real good question. Should you have two or more then they might wanted to adjust the belts, opened the screws and forgot about it. Could also happen in Somalia or Mongolia.....

[hansnl]

try a different dealer

I have another, completely different question--after having the initial 1K kilometer checkup done at the Toyota dealer, I noticed that the fan belt was loose, as evidenced by the fact that it would squeal every time I started the car. I took the car back to Toyota, and they fixed it in about 5 minutes. But it made me wonder: what were they doing during the 1K checkup that would require them to loosen the fan belt? Normally, this is something that would only be required if something needed replacing, like an alternator or an AC compressor, but I'm having trouble imagining what part of a 1K checkup would require this. Of course, paranoid as I happen to be, I couldn't help but wonder if they were taking some of the new components off the engine and replacing them with used or refurbished stuff, and reselling the originals.

Anybody out there know if there would be a legitimate reason for a loose fan belt after a 1K checkup? After my recent encounter with them related to the 'pinging', I'm beginning to have doubts about this dealer.

try a different dealer

I have another, completely different question--after having the initial 1K kilometer checkup done at the Toyota dealer, I noticed that the fan belt was loose, as evidenced by the fact that it would squeal every time I started the car. I took the car back to Toyota, and they fixed it in about 5 minutes. But it made me wonder: what were they doing during the 1K checkup that would require them to loosen the fan belt? Normally, this is something that would only be required if something needed replacing, like an alternator or an AC compressor, but I'm having trouble imagining what part of a 1K checkup would require this. Of course, paranoid as I happen to be, I couldn't help but wonder if they were taking some of the new components off the engine and replacing them with used or refurbished stuff, and reselling the originals.

Anybody out there know if there would be a legitimate reason for a loose fan belt after a 1K checkup? After my recent encounter with them related to the 'pinging', I'm beginning to have doubts about this dealer.

Now then, this is a very dirty idea.....

But.......

[damo]

engine is not advancing spark to ingnite fuel/air earlier to allow for the additional amount of fuel in the combustion chamber when the motor is under additional load.

or

ecu, doubt it, but could be, try using 95RON or better, use a popular petrol station you'd think has a reliable turnover of fuel, not some outback jacks.

[damo]

try a different dealer

I have another, completely different question--after having the initial 1K kilometer checkup done at the Toyota dealer, I noticed that the fan belt was loose, as evidenced by the fact that it would squeal every time I started the car. I took the car back to Toyota, and they fixed it in about 5 minutes. But it made me wonder: what were they doing during the 1K checkup that would require them to loosen the fan belt? Normally, this is something that would only be required if something needed replacing, like an alternator or an AC compressor, but I'm having trouble imagining what part of a 1K checkup would require this. Of course, paranoid as I happen to be, I couldn't help but wonder if they were taking some of the new components off the engine and replacing them with used or refurbished stuff, and reselling the originals.

Anybody out there know if there would be a legitimate reason for a loose fan belt after a 1K checkup? After my recent encounter with them related to the 'pinging', I'm beginning to have doubts about this dealer.

You might have found someone who knows what they are doing, they could be aware of inherant issues which are simple and easy to fix, your mechanic may be aware that a Yaris may come from the factory with overly tight alternator, aircon, pwr steer belt (your car does not have a fan belt) and makes this small adjustment because it is something that is easy to do and is just something pro-active he can do to save you the hassle of coming back in 5000 km's with a shredded belt that was over tight from the factory.

If your dealership is busy they would actually loose money if they were doing things they are not getting paid for, like swapping parts, etc. Loss of reputation, etc, wrong tree I think. Have a look at your service scedule and read right in to it, the tension is something that may have needed to have been examined, they have have just made it a little too loose.

If you want to give the dealers mechanic an indication you have some nouse around motors and make him be truly professional then pull your air cleaner and mark it in a obvious place on the paper with the delivery date, likewise with your oil filter, and other consumables listed on your service scedule, or you can be sneaky and mark the underneath of you oil filter etc to see if they replace the concumables not knowing you are watching.

Edited March 20, 2012 by damo

[ataloss]

Which Toyota dealer are you going to for service? There are three handy CMai - Saha Phanich on Chotana, the one by the airport which used to be called Nihom Phanich at which I have always had great service, and the third opposite Makro on the way to HangDong.

You are not compelled to go to the dealer from which you bought? Actually I am surprised you have not been looked after more diligently: possibly a Head Office heads-up is needed. Send them a link to this topic.

And what model 2011 Vios? I'm thinking of buying the Vios or may await the new 2013 Altis CNG; but will wait until your issue is resolved to your satisfaction. If this becomes a continuing Vios saga I will reconsider and buy Honda; no sense both of us being disappointed. Good Luck.

[Kwasaki]

There's never many issue's with the 1.5 engine if any one of the most reliable unit's in the market for years.

What you want is a diagnotic ECU check, already mentioned, sensors maybe or just mapping out, things can happen even if the battery is disconnected or discharged too but only a computer will find out what it is, and put it right.

A good Toyota dealer should be able to do this or find one that can, simple easy with the right plug in equipment can be done in a few minutes.

Fuel for Vios is 91 gasohol waste of money putting anything else or 91 benzine now and again to give the injectors a bit of a clean out, and give it some stick now and again 1.5 vvti love it.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Kwasaki

[Jobo]

If you think those idiots at Toyota dealers know what they are doing hear this. My friend bought his wife a new Altis late last year. After a couple of months he decided to drive it. Brake pedal nearly going to the floor. He told her to take it back and have it fixed. They said,as we expected,nothing wrong. That's normal.

He told her to take it back again. Same story. Next time he went and got a bit heated with them. He said quite clearly that there was air in the system,at the very least. They bled the brakes. OK for a few days then the same again. We diagnosed it as a faulty master cylinder confirmed by a trusted mechanic acquaintance. Took it back demanding a new master cylinder quoting our mechanic friends diagnosis. Reluctantly they did. The moral of the story is that unfortunately you have to know more than they do which with most of the Somchai's is not much,otherwise you are left driving a dangerously faulty car which the average Thai will think is normal.

And a bit of googling turned up a recall somewhere in the world for the same model with the same fault. Of course it can and is covered up here! Must save face if not lives.

[Kwasaki]

If you think those idiots at Toyota dealers know what they are doing hear this. My friend bought his wife a new Altis late last year. After a couple of months he decided to drive it. Brake pedal nearly going to the floor. He told her to take it back and have it fixed. They said,as we expected,nothing wrong. That's normal.

He told her to take it back again. Same story. Next time he went and got a bit heated with them. He said quite clearly that there was air in the system,at the very least. They bled the brakes. OK for a few days then the same again. We diagnosed it as a faulty master cylinder confirmed by a trusted mechanic acquaintance. Took it back demanding a new master cylinder quoting our mechanic friends diagnosis. Reluctantly they did. The moral of the story is that unfortunately you have to know more than they do which with most of the Somchai's is not much,otherwise you are left driving a dangerously faulty car which the average Thai will think is normal.

And a bit of googling turned up a recall somewhere in the world for the same model with the same fault. Of course it can and is covered up here! Must save face if not lives.

Well we are talking fueling issues here braking issues can be fixed and diagnosed easily keep taking it to your trusted mechanic by all means but does he have the Toyota ECU computer codes to check the mapping on the ECU fueling system within the car.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Kwasaki

[Jobo]

Same principle different problem. You obviously don't get it. They couldn't diagnose a simple brake problem so they have no chance of solving a complex ECU/Fuelling problem either because they don't know where to start. And that is evident from telling him to change the fuel. My point is proven in that one line.

My comment was a reference to their diagnostic abilities and competence (lack of it) in general and not specific to anything. The point being if he doesn't take the car into Toyota and tell them as strongly as needed what needs to be done nothing will happen.

If they think they know more than the customer then they know better from my experience.

[how241]

Try High octane gas. See if that helps. Probably the ignition timing is too far advanced.

[transam]

Try High octane gas. See if that helps. Probably the ignition timing is too far advanced.

BUT, it is computer (ECU) controlled.

[Kwasaki]

Try High octane gas. See if that helps. Probably the ignition timing is too far advanced.

BUT, it is computer (ECU) controlled.

Well apparently I obviously don't get it, and we own a car with exactly the same engine no problem what so ever running 91 gasohol green pump, every now and then shove some 91 benzene red pump in.

What the OP needs, is to find a competent Toyota dealer, the one we have here is bloody useless but they can manage to do a diagnostic ECU tuning.

[funlovinkid]

I appreciate all the feedback here. Please allow me to add the fact that, since my original post, I've run two tankfuls of Shell Unleaded 91 Benzene through the engine, and it still knocks. Anyway, I took the car in today (April 20th), explained the problem again (they remembered me from the previous visit), and they humored me by checking the ECU as I had asked, using their hand-held Toyota computer diagnostic thing. They did this while the car was parked, with the engine idling (not sure if this matters or not, but I thought I'd throw it in). The service guy told me that the diagnostic computer was reporting everything normal. I asked him if we should be checking the ECU while the engine was under load or not (i.e. while driving), he said no, it didn't matter. So I asked them (the technician guy and the friendly English-speaking female Thai Toyota employee who accompanied me for translation purposes) if they could give me a printout of all the information being displayed on the handheld computer. They said no, not possible. I noticed that the computer had a USB port on it, so I asked if they could export the data onto a USB flash drive so that I could download it to my laptop (which I happened to have with me at the time), and they said they didn't have any USB flash drives available, but if I had one, that would be OK. Unfortunately, I didn't have one with me, so I walked away with exactly nothing, not even a paper record of the fact that I had been there for service. Same thing the first time around--they never actually registered my complaint and logged me into their system, or if they did, they apparently never felt it was necessary to give me a copy of the service record. So I have no proof that I actually tried to have the problem fixed, twice. In hindsight, maybe I should have insisted on receiving a copy of their attempt to resolve the problem, in whatever form that might have taken.

For what it's worth, my impression of both the people described above was that they really were trying to help me. The technician guy was middle-aged, and appeared to be somewhat of an authority, maybe a Technical Advisor or Service Advisor whom the less-experienced technicians might consult when unsure about how to solve a problem. The female Thai translator's English was very good, and it was my impression that she was faithfully explaining to the technician everything I was saying, and back to me as well, from him. The technician seemed resigned to be unable to solve the problem, for reasons unknown. He also repeated something that was said to me on my first visit, which was that engine pre-ignition knocking was "normal", which really bothered me, knowing as I do that it's absolutely not normal.

I Googled the issue earlier today, and found some articles by other Toyota Vios owners complaining of the same problem, and of the inability to get anyone to solve it (not all of them happen to be in Thailand). This got me wondering if Toyota might have a problem with its ECU, or the associated firmware, and is trying to avoid a recall. I also took a snapshot of the ECU inside my engine compartment, complete with the barcode, serial number, etc. Can't help but wonder if it's the right one for the car.

Anyway, I figured the next step would be to call Toyota Customer Service in Bangkok and explain my concerns, which I did today. They took down all the relevant information and said they would contact the dealer to arrange some resolution to the problem and would call me back, but now I'm wondering if the lack of documentation at the dealership about my service requests will present a problem. "Sorry, we have no record of this car ever being brought in for this problem!" hehe

Thanks again for all the thoughts and suggestions herein; I will follow-up soon with an update.

[MegaRanter]

If all fails, you can take a hammer to it in front of the dealership, but make you invite the cops and the press.

That's how we deal with such unsolvable new car hassles in Bangkok.

The car might actually be too small for a decent sized farang.

Buy a focus, it never let's you down

[funlovinkid]

Sounds like an ECU (on board computer) problem. The ride must be connected to a Toyota Main Agent computer which will diagnose the problem.

Sounds like an ECU (on board computer) problem. The ride must be connected to a Toyota Main Agent computer which will diagnose the problem.

Hi TransAm,

I thought I might offer an update here:

Several months ago, Toyota sent a customer service rep from Bangkok (I’m in Chiang Mai) to oversee the process of collecting data on their handheld computer while the car was being driven, in order to hopefully determine the source of the problem. So I drove around near the dealership with three Toyota guys in the car (one of which was the rep) for about 10 minutes while the data was being collected. Beforehand, the rep asked me to tell him whenever I heard the pinging, which I did during the drive. At the time, I was under the impression that data was being collected during the entire drive, so I thought his request for me to report hearing the pinging was only for his benefit, so that he could determine if he heard it as well. Unfortunately, after we returned to the dealership, they told me that the computer was NOT collecting data during the entire drive, and that it could only collect data in 6-second increments, which the technician had apparently been doing while we were in the car. I have no idea when he started and stopped this data collection process, and whether it was being collected during the pinging episodes or not. Of course, they reported that the computer said everything was within the normal limits.

Fast forward to now: as the car is still 'pinging', I recently sent a very explicit email message about this on the Toyota website, and received a call back the next day from Toyota Bangkok, saying that they would get in touch with the dealer (that I purchased the car from), and that the dealer would contact me about a solution to the problem. Of course, I received no further contact, and so I decided to send an email to the Toyota representative who I met with the first time they tried to diagnose the problem, asking for his help. So here we are a week later, and I still have no reply from him, or anyone else.

I've owned (and serviced) cars since 1972, and I know the sound of an engine when it's pinging (or technically speaking, "knocking"). So it galls me to drive around in what is essentially a new car (11K kilometers) with a pinging engine, because the manufacturer has basically chosen to thumb its nose at me.

One of the things I would like to consider is whether the ECU in the car is the correct one. When I asked Toyota if they could tell me the correct part number for the ECU which should be in the car, they said there was no information available about that. So I've included a picture of the ECU ID tag, which shows the model number, serial number, etc. For what it's worth, the numbers on the tag, from upper to lower, are:

89661-0DA61

212000-3911 12V

*2003911G*

Wondering if you could tell me how to confirm whether this is the correct ECU? I also happen to be wondering about the green pen mark diagonally through the tag, and what this might mean, if anything. As a reminder, this is a 2011 Vios model G, 1.5 vvti. As you can tell, I'm grasping at straws here! Many thanks for any feedback.

Edited January 25, 2013 by funlovinkid

[WarpSpeed]

Sounds like an ECU (on board computer) problem. The ride must be connected to a Toyota Main Agent computer which will diagnose the problem.

Except that if the CEL (check engine light) is not on as they say then it won't give them a code to diagnose with.. Correct the ECU is not compensating or receiving the malfunction code and there are times when a sensor can be operating within OEM specs and still not quite right due to various conditions, this sounds like one of those cases, the knock sensor is not working properly it seems..

I'd see about ordering a new knock sensor and having it installed to see if it solves the problem and if it does insist they cover it under warrantee and tell them that up front, if it doesn't solve the problem then you have a real conundrum and a new knock sensor . But what choice do you have under the circumstances?.

OP JFYI the 91 E20 is not necessarily a high grade gasohol, it's a higher percentage alcohol content gasohol.

Edited January 25, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[BSJ]

Seems like you need the services of a good lawyer when dealing with the numb-nuts Toyota dealers service department.

[monty]

I'm not a car engineer, but from what I remember from my days tinkering with/tuning motorbikes, I was of the impression that an engine constantly running pinging will self destruct in not that many km's.

Pinging, i.e. the mixture igniting before the piston reaches tdc, places a tremendous amount of stress on the engine.

I have seen such damaged engines, usually bad tuning (ignition too far advanced) maybe combined with too low octane fuel, and they did'nt look pretty.

Hence I kind of wonder how the OP's engine keeps doing this for 14,000 + km...