I Don't Get Gay Culture

[DrMoggles]

Hi everybody!

I'm a 25 yo swedish expat living and working in Bangkok.

Geek that I am, I usually prefer to hang out on IRC and not so much on web forums but the discussions going on here seem really interesting and intelligent!

So, here is my rant:

I just don't "get" gay culture and most gay men I meet.

The stereotype I'm supposed to fit into is driving me crazy!

It's like the exact opposite of who I really am.

I guess to some my appearence and persona falls under the "straight acting" label

but let me assure you that I am 100% "me acting", or simply not acting at all.

Right now I have absolutely NO urge to do any of the following things:

* Read or think about fashion

* Listen to female divas singing or burst out into song myself

* Decorate my home

* Going into show business, hair saloon business, beauty product business or gym business

* Watch TV

I know I'm just listing some old stupid stereotypical points here, but ... too often THEY ARE TRUE!

Now for some highly condensed history:

Religion arrives, men stop having sex with other men in the open to fit in with the rules of said religion.

Religion and society dictates the norm for how people shall live their lives.

Men who want to have sex with other men grow frustrated and want out.

They band together, fight for their rights and form a sub-culture, or counter-culture if you will.

This counter-culture adopts the name "gay" or "queer" and if you happen to be a man who wants to have sex with other men you are automatically assumed to be in it.

This is the situation we have today as I experienced it when I came out.

I think it's about time the media and the "gay movement" start promoting a more individualistic

and diverse ideal.

The basic problem is that we have a huge culture based on something so relatively insignificant as who you want laying beside you in bed.

A phrase such as "I like to have sex with men but I'm not gay" sounds incredibly stupid when in fact, it's not.

Identifying oneself as gay today means so much more than sexual preference .. with the identity comes a package.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, how can two guys like the same kind of music, watch the same kind of TV and enjoy the same sorts of activities just because they both suck dick?

Doesn't make any sence to me!

Be yourself, not who "they" say you oughta be!

Wow, my rant turned out pretty incoherent but I typed for so long that I'm just gonna hit that submit button and see if anyone understands what I'm trying to say

Guess I'll try to break it down next time...

[Guest endure]

You say you're from Sweden?

[DrMoggles]

You say you're from Sweden?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes endure, that is correct.

[thaibebop]

I understand what you are saying. But I don't know what to say to it as I am not gay, and I don't wish to speak for the community. However, I know of being apart of a demographic that makes me think to find safety I would have to relocate to the moon. I am a white yank, enemy number one for the world. And I really wonder why "my" people just can't stop fcking up and making things worse.

So, in the end I have to say that you just need to be you and if anyone has a problem with it.....fck 'em.

Words to live by,

Fck This

Fck That

Fck Them

Fck It All

&

Fck You

Have a nice day!

[Guest endure]

You say you're from Sweden?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes endure, that is correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a remarkable grasp of the American version of English for a 25 year old Swede.

[ProThaiExpat]

There are many more gays that live their own lives, not "gay lifestyles", than you might think. On the other hand, it is the militants, "in your face", gays that push the envelope of acceptance by society, and I am thankful for them, as the world's level of acceptance for gays would be much less if my type predominated, those of us who live without placing any emphasis whatsoever on who we sleep with.

[JungleBoy]

DrMoggles, you are the man of my dreams. Or should I say, the man with the mind and heart of my dreams. I don't care anything about the gay 'life style' as presented by some of those who have gone before us. Let me say here tho, that ProThaiExpat has expressed views that I agree with 100%. If not for the bold, courageous, 'in your face' gays, gay acceptance would be like it was in the 50's and 60's, an era in which I found that I could not live as myself without putting my life on the line. It takes a special kind of person to put their life on the line for any reason and I whole heartedly thank those who have. They have made my gay 'life' so much easier for me to live today.

Being gay to me only means who I have sex with. Nothing more. I eat, drink, walk, open doors, tie my shoes, put on a rain jacket when it rains, wash dishes, ride my motorci, hook up my computer etc. just like any other human being. Who and what I do in bed is my business and my business alone (partner included). If you have or find a desire to 'champion' gay rights, please go ahead and do that. If not, then enjoy what has been 'championed' for you....and be gratefull that others have what it takes to be themselves. Being yourself, the way you have presented yourself, will be an inspiration for those who just want to be a human being who has sex with another man (your post is confirmation that I'm not alone). I don't think for a moment that gay 'rights' have gone as far as they can go, more needs to happen, but the progress has been nothing short of sexual freedom for me.

So, to quote you, 'Be yourself, not who "they" say you ought to be!

Words to live by.

jb

[DrMoggles]

I understand what you are saying. But I don't know what to say to it as I am not gay, and I don't wish to speak for the community. However, I know of being apart of a demographic that makes me think to find safety I would have to relocate to the moon. I am a white yank, enemy number one for the world. And I really wonder why "my" people just can't stop fcking up and making things worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe, I think we all are holding our collective breaths as a planet for that to stop

It seems my country and others are trying to catch up on the world domination thing at a very rapid rate though.

Please take me with you when you relocate

[DrMoggles]

You have a remarkable grasp of the American version of English for a 25 year old Swede.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why, thank you!

I blame it all on teh internets

Unfortunately my thai is still on a 20 words level.

[DrMoggles]

DrMoggles, you are the man of my dreams.  Or should I say, the  man with the mind and heart of my dreams.  I don't care anything about the gay 'life style' as presented by some of those who have gone before us.  Let me say here tho, that ProThaiExpat has expressed views that I agree with 100%.  If not for the bold, courageous, 'in your face' gays, gay acceptance would be like it was in the 50's and 60's, an era in which I found that I could not live as myself without putting my life on the line.  It takes a special kind of person to put their life on the line for any reason and I whole heartedly thank those who have.  They have made my gay 'life' so much easier for me to live today. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh absolutely, I agree with you guys.

I'm very thankful for everything that has been done for gay rights.

Now my only remaining question is:

Where do I find MEN LIKE YOU?!

We should start our own movement or something.

The "gay slob" movement as I saw it described in some tabloid

[DUMPSTER]

People try to be something they are not just to fit in and please others. Straights and gays alike fall into this trap. You are what you are and you like what you like and if you live your life that way you might find something that resembles happiness. Living your life for others will only bring misery.

Endure you often sound very condescending. You actually feel the need to point out that a non native speaker can actually write good English. I think this is not the first time I have read such a post from you.

I'm not sure if you are a travelled man but it sounds as though you have been living in a cocoon for the last 50 years.

[bina]

i want to add:

identity by dress/action/likes etc is society's way of helping u find others 'like u'... like 'gaydar... or like my grandfather in newyork talking with someone and saying 'MOT' (members of the tribe?) as in , are u jewish?? teenagers wearing the same kind of 'freaky' clothes so they can id other 'freaky' types rather then id or be identified as 'cool' or 'punk' or whatever....

or in israel the types that were the 'ethnic world traveller clothes' to id as those just out of army, travelled and 'hippie' type....

every group has its thaaaang......

except for those of us that dont... we are the marginals (an anthropology and sociology term for those that are on the fringes whether accepted or not in to the predominant or any group ) (just a reminder that there is a thread going on about cliques in the forum and my comments are the same there) and we just do what we do without trying to dress/eat/do the things that help us find others like us whether its gay, feminist, hi tec geek, or whatever

so just being yourself may make it more difficult for your 'gadar' to work if u are actively seeking other gay men for instance... didnt it used to be an earing in the left ear, or right ear or something as a sort of code???

i also dont care who sleeps with whom, or what... even professors have to use the toilet ... and i dont pigeon hole anyone but some folks need that...

and it is always the 'in your face' types that do the hard work in teh beginning for gaining rights : black militants, sufragettes, flaming queens , etc... that allow the rest of us mortals to just 'be' whomever we are.... amen to those that dare....

bina

[Ijustwannateach]

Perhaps OP is new to gay culture; a similar thread was recently started by PB (who came to gay culture a bit later in life as well, after living as a straight man for many years):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46032

Otherwise he'd probably be aware that there are many different gay subcultures, including a large population of men whom you would never suspect for any reason of being gay simply from observing their surface.

Part of the "camp" gay subculture in the U.S. arose out of the need to have identifying signals and common interests in an era when it was much more dangerous and socially stigmatising to be gay. This culture has perpetuated itself even though it no longer needs to fill its original purpose.

Bina's right about what we owe them: the rebellion against police at Stonewall, now considered a landmark part of the fight for gay rights in the U.S., was largely fought by campy drag queens.

"Steven"

[Guest endure]

Endure you often sound very condescending. You actually feel the need to point out that a non native speaker can actually write good English. I think this is not the first time I have read such a post from you.

I'm not sure if you are a travelled man but it sounds as though you have been  living in a cocoon for the last 50 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not condescending but cynical. Being a 'travelled man' I tend not to take everything I see at face value. If you find my posts not to your liking there's an ignore button which will remove them from your sight.

[Guest endure]

Endure you often sound very condescending. You actually feel the need to point out that a non native speaker can actually write good English. I think this is not the first time I have read such a post from you.

I'm not sure if you are a travelled man but it sounds as though you have been  living in a cocoon for the last 50 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Furthermore as long as DrMoggles seems unconcerned about my posts I suggest you mind your own business.

[DUMPSTER]

I don't believe in ignoring a problem as unfortunately they never go away. Cynical or condescending call it what you want, it's still a negative behavior pattern. If you don't take things at face value how can anybody take you at face value? If DrMoggles is a fake as you initially assumed, then so be it. As long as you don't let it affect you then it has no power over you and therefore the need to be cynical is redundant.

[Guest endure]

I don't believe in ignoring a problem as unfortunately they never go away. Cynical or condescending call it what you want, it's still a negative behavior pattern. If you don't take things at face value how can anybody take you at face value? If DrMoggles is a fake as you initially assumed, then so be it. As long as you don't let it affect you then it has no power over you and therefore the need to be cynical is redundant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't always not take things at face value - I look for indicators. 'Joined today' poster using first post to initiate controversial thread rings alarm bells. Poster allegedly has English as second language but posts in idiomatic American English rings alarm bells too. If I'm wrong about DrMoggles I'm more than happy to apologise to him. You do seem determined to interfere in things that are none of your business. Please save your amateur psychology for someone who needs it and as our friends across the pond say - 'butt out'.

[DrMoggles]

Perhaps OP is new to gay culture; a similar thread was recently started by PB (who came to gay culture a bit later in life as well, after living as a straight man for many years):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46032

Otherwise he'd probably be aware that there are many different gay subcultures, including a large population of men whom you would never suspect for any reason of being gay simply from observing their surface.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I realize now that I am far from alone and that the exact same topic has been discussed before. Sorry about that

I just can't seem to find anyone that cares more about world issues than the latest season of

[country] Idol

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't believe in ignoring a problem as unfortunately they never go away.

How to solve a problem then? I believe we all have things to learn from each other, and fortunately one of our very own members has the solution:

As long as you don't let it affect you then it has no power over you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorted! You learn something new every day! So, Dumpster, all you have to do is remember not to let Endure affect you- then he will have no power over you.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

DrMoogles, your posting resonates quite strongly with my own experience.

Nearly all my life, living in a western country, I thought I was the only one in the world like myself. (I know, a somewhat limited perspective!)

I enjoyed working on my car, outdoor sports, martial arts, hunting, backpacking with the guys in the mountains-- basically enjoying "guy" things. I loved risk-taking: starting my own businesses, a wild snowboard ride down a mountain side (hoping to start an avalanche that I could outrace), traveling to marginally dangerous countries for the thrill of adventure. I've faced angry Soviet border guards (who were confiscating my camera), a threatening Palestinian militant, and faced the unfriendly ends of US national guard rifles (Berkely, circa 1969). Indiana Jones was my hero (although archeology was never my thing). I haven't "acted" this part--it was (and is) genuinely me. [Alert! Understatement coming!...] Not the gay stereotype in everyone's mind at the time.

The downside: As part of this life-style, I was attracted to only straight-acting men who enjoyed the same lifestyle. I was not attracted to "gays" because I thought all gays were effiminate. I didn't even consider visiting the gay bars, bathhouses, or "certain" parts of town, because I thought I'd only find "femmes" there. Inside I knew I was gay but rejected the "gay lifestyle."

Of course, this limited my options considerably, because straight-acting gays don't "put out the signals" as openly. Ergo: I never found a counterpart in over 50 years!. I had (and have) tons of straight friends to whom I was secretly attracted. But what a miserable one-way relationship. Whenever my feelings of fondness deepened, there was that line I dare not cross--and that line was clearly and conservatively drawn in the sand in my culture! Even a hand on a shoulder could become suspect. I was clever enough to hide my true feelings, so they never caught on (thus no one was frightened off).

Then, I found Thailand.

Here, I found a culture where straight-acting gays and genuinely straight men are not afraid to express same-sex physical affection. What a breath of fresh air. This "grays" the lines of "what's acceptable" in man-to-man interraction to the point that it's so much easier for non-effiminate men to connect on a deeper level, here.

Just when I thought I was a 50+ yr. old wash-out in my own culture, I came to a country where 20-somethings and 30-somethings really went for older guys. And they weren't all money boys working in bars. Some were established, self-sufficient professionals who enjoy the "guy things" that I do!

So now what's the new scenario for me?

In just a very short time in Thailand, I've had several very handsome and quite "macho" Thai men become close friends with me, only to find out, after nearly a year, (yup, kinda slow, but sure) that they had the same feelings for me as I had already had stirring within me (memories of old western-culture days, but with a nicer ending).

I discovered another delightful twist of events from what I see as the typical "gay scene": There's something very sweet about finding reciprocal romance AFTER developing a close bond of friendship, as opposed to the reverse order. It's like being surprised with a very satisfying cream filling in a filled pastry (e.g. Bavarian cream puff?), after having already enjoyed the surrounding pastry. With these guys, didn't do the wild sex--just some very nice "cuddle sessions" which was deeply satisfying to us both.

Ironically, now I have the opposite problem, compared to my western upbringing. Now I'm in a country where openly straight-acting guys are attracted to me. Further, I'm a reasonably good-looking (I'm told, bless them), physically fit, and well-adjusted middle aged guy with a decent personalilty. So now, with these handsome, sensitive yet manly guys, I have to deal gently and honestly with their emotions and romantic desires (No, I'm not promiscuous, and believe that monogomous relationships are ultimately more fulfulling in the long run--and definitely less complicated!).

But I like this new problem. I'll deal with it...

So DrMoogles, I believe you have finally found the culture that meshes with who you are inside AND outside. As you've already discovered, you can just be yourself here. And the deeper other similar guys get to know you, the more they will likely appreciate and even love you. (AND they won't be afraid to show it!)

You're very lucky it only took you 25 years to find this place! Enjoy, and happy bonding!

[PeaceBlondie]

Dr. Moggles, welcome to thaivisa.com and its Gay Forum.

Your written English is commendable, but it's not much better than the Swedes who winter in Hua Hin. As a teacher of English as a foreign language, I find it a bit provincial when someone's surprised that a non-native speaker can speak or write like a well educated native. Of course you can; millions do.

Thanks to Ijustwannateach pinning my earlier thread, you have access to my similar rants on this subject. I was a minister of education and youth, a husband and father, and an accountant long before I decided to act on my gay nature. So, I never walked like a woman, spoke in falsetto, etc. However, I always have enjoyed Broadway musicals from the 1950's, but that's almost a function of age and straight culture in my case.

The campy style is an aberration, a marginalization, and quite grotesque. Thai katoeys are stuck into camp worse than the gay Euro-Americans. My long term live in Thai boyfriend, however, didn't behave like a katoey.

I don't play games I don't enjoy. I don't frequent incredibly noisy, hot, crowded, drug-crazed discoteques, and my 'dancing' is a joke.

So, the whole point of being gay, IMHO, is being yourself, whoever that is.

[Guest endure]

Dr. Moggles, welcome to thaivisa.com and its Gay Forum.

The campy style is an aberration, a marginalization, and quite grotesque.  Thai katoeys are stuck into camp worse than the gay Euro-Americans.  My long term live in Thai boyfriend, however, didn't behave like a katoey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As has been pointed out before the majority of katoeys in Thailand aren't gay. They're men who want to be women.

[Guest endure]

The campy style is an aberration, a marginalization, and quite grotesque.  Thai katoeys are stuck into camp worse than the gay Euro-Americans.  My long term live in Thai boyfriend, however, didn't behave like a katoey.

So, the whole point of being gay, IMHO, is being yourself, whoever that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aren't those two statements rather contradictory (and rather intolerant of your fellow gays)?

Edited December 18, 2005 by endure

[Ijustwannateach]

What a weird thread this is becoming. I'm still having trouble digesting Mr. Gay Indiana Jones up there (shades of all the former RAF/CIA/Super Special Secret Forces types that are always supposed to be around here). You don't have to stretch things quite that far to prove your straight-acting credentials, dearie!

(there, a bit of camp myself!)

And I would think the Swedish boy would have found plenty of sensible Swedish gays.... they can't ALL be cross-dressing Abbaphile fetishists, can they? Most of the northern European gays I've run into are *very* intellectual and politically well-versed. Or is your complaint Thai-specific?

And we have PB- for whom I entirely agree that "camp" would be a grotesque lifestyle to assume, but whose circle of acquaintance I happen to know is verrrrry broad and inclusive- accused of intolerance! I think it's partly a generational thing.... PB and I are both relatively recent gays- part of the generation that didn't have to hide QUITE so much, and for whom perhaps camp has become less relevant. I think that in countries where prejudice fails, camp *will* be eventually regarded as an aberration and a historical anomaly- something in the same line as older men who won't frequent gay establishments even now because they've been so firmly in the closet all their lives. As prejudice dies out, I think the need for camp and the number of people who value it as a component of their identity will decrease- not to say that those who incorporate it now are inferior or wrong for doing so.

I would guess PB's opinion is more regarding the historical role of camp and not individual campy people, at least if they don't reach extremes. I'm quite amused by them myself as long as they're considerate enough not to deliver ear-piercing screams next to my table in the bar.

"Steven"

[Guest endure]

There's nothing wrong with Abba

[Ijustwannateach]

Of course not.

[Guest endure]

And we have PB- for whom I entirely agree that "camp" would be a grotesque lifestyle to assume, but whose circle of acquaintance I happen to know is verrrrry broad and inclusive- accused of intolerance!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're assuming that campery is some sort of 'lifestyle choice' that a certain type of gay adopts. Not being camp I can't contradict you but I'm not sure that effeminacy is optional for some people.

[Ijustwannateach]

That's true... but I think we need to draw a distinction between campery (which I do regard as a voluntary affectation) and effeminacy (which I agree may not be optional for many).

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

My opinion, of course, is just the opinion of one non-camp gay man who hasn't been doing the gay scene ever since the 1960's. In my proud opinion, I think the over-acting that's so popular in Thailand is grotesque.

Gosh, Endure, I don't know if two gay Thai men agree exactly what a katoey is and isn't. I take your opinion that "...the majority of katoeys in Thailand aren't gay. They're men who want to be women" as just that - the opinion of one non-Thai gay man. The katoeys I've met were eager to have sex with another man with male equipment, pre-op. That's gay enough for me, and as long as they aren't transvestite at the time, it doesn't keep me from copulating with them. I'm waiting right now for a date that looks very girlish, but in fact is barely bisexual. The most girlish one I've dated had no problem being top. There is not enough of a pattern to make sweeping generalizations. Just when you think you've got a partner figured out, they do something unpredictable (like the one last night....). I knew a 6 foot 3 inch middle aged White man who was totally hetero, but transvestite.

I stand by my opinion that the over-acting, lipsticked, hip-swivelling, screeching Thai male is playing a grotesque role.

[DUMPSTER]

Peaceblondie wrote. Your written English is commendable, but it's not much better than the Swedes who winter in Hua Hin. As a teacher of English as a foreign language, I find it a bit provincial when someone's surprised that a non-native speaker can speak or write like a well educated native. Of course you can; millions do.

I couldn't agree more and which only confirms endure's negative, cynical and provincial outlook on life.

Steven wrote So, Dumpster, all you have to do is remember not to let Endure affect you- then he will have no power over you.

It’s not the affect the post has on me that is of concern it’s the affect he has to the whole forum. Someone who insinuates and who is so negative to a newbie can only be a deterrent to others to post which is why the ratio of views to posts is very high. Many people seem to read but don’t post themselves and with the likes of endure giving such an insinuating welcome in stark contrast to Peaceblondie you can understand why some might be reluctant to post. I say give a guy a chance that’s all.

So endure as for butting out, if you post, you are open to same scrutiny as a newbie, so [insult deleted]

Edited December 19, 2005 by PeaceBlondie