Run Flats Suck

[WarpSpeed]

Yokohama Advan, GoodYear, Bridgestone, Dunlop, Nitto, BFG, Toyo, Michelin..................................... Do I need to list any more?

Yes please.

A standard tire that isn't run flat, but fully compatible with BMW's RCC system, would work for me.

Then, you wouldn't need to alter; the steering geometry, change suspension components and amend the ESC algorithm.

Making changes which detract from the design definition and so, no longer comply with the design requirement, may be acceptable to some. It isn't for me. If I want a dog, I buy a dog. Not, a cat and a mod kit.

No you're being silly any of the tire brands listed are more then adequate.. I will give you credit though you've managed to fall for all of the sales PR and engineering gobbledygook hook line and sinker falling for that "no other tires will work properly as the suspension is custom designed for these tires only" spiel..

Silly? No.

I just have a different opinion and I believe that it's up to the OP to make his own decision on the way forward. Basing that decision on more, not less iinformation which is freely available.

At no time, have I said that standard tires can't be fitted. I did say that; if you do so and don't make other changes, then, BMW's design will have been compromised. It's up to the OP (or any-one else for that matter) to decides on a remedial course of action, for themselves.

Personally I don't see the point in paying a premium price for a car and then, downgrading it's features. If it was miy new car, I would have been talking to BMW. If the problem was solely road noise, then improving the sound absorbing matting would help to bring the noise level down to an acceptable level, if it didn't fix the problem entirely.

As far as falling for all that 'engineering gobbledygook' (whatever a 'gobbledygook' is) goes. As a qualified engineer, it aint gobbledygook (good word) to me. Admittedly, the price of replacing these tires is high. Especially when considering that they are a sacrificial item in the event of a puncture. Hopefully, as/if this tire technology is used more widely, the associated costs will reduce. Think back to all the everyday items you see today, which commanded a premium price not too long ago.

The documents that I quoted have different titles in different industries. They form part of a 'process set' which is a mandatory requirement for ISO 9000 accreditation. BMW is accredited with international standards ISO 9000 and ISO/TS 16949.

Having said all that, it seems the OP has already made his decision and I hope his choice works well, for him. Thanks for the 'gobbledygook', I'll try to use it in future.

No, instead you said they can be fitted with all sorts of additional costs and suspension revamps which as I said is nothing short of gobbledygook and you went a lot further then an opinion. You went on to include a bunch of irrelevant engineering and nonsensical gobbledygook to try to illustrate your point and scare the OP into following your fallacious information. Another new word for you to add to your expanding personal encyclopedia BTW..

Edited March 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[Brissance]

It seems that any-one who doesn't share your ideals and offers an alternative argument, to yours, needs to be brought in line.

It appears that you probably see them as a threat to your feeling of prestige and iIf you can't get them to submit to your vour view, by a technical argument you become abusive.

How you choose to interpret what I said and alluded to, is up to you.

I maintain that BMW's design team have a superior knowledge of their product, when compared to yours. They designed, tested and produced their product using the gobbldygook you seem to hate. Within that gobbeldygook. there's also procedures for support of the product. It's a relatively new car, so BMW, should be the first port of call, in order to address the problem.

What the OP does, is entirely up to him!!!!

I will continue to post my view on matters, within this (and other) forum(s) on TV, whether you agree with them or not! I will not submit to bullying.

A word for your dictionary:- 'Ogliarch'.

[stevenl]

I am with WS on this one, and really don't believe that the design of a car is compromised if you change the tires.

[WarpSpeed]

It seems that any-one who doesn't share your ideals and offers an alternative argument, to yours, needs to be brought in line.

It appears that you probably see them as a threat to your feeling of prestige and iIf you can't get them to submit to your vour view, by a technical argument you become abusive.

How you choose to interpret what I said and alluded to, is up to you.

I maintain that BMW's design team have a superior knowledge of their product, when compared to yours. They designed, tested and produced their product using the gobbldygook you seem to hate. Within that gobbeldygook. there's also procedures for support of the product. It's a relatively new car, so BMW, should be the first port of call, in order to address the problem.

What the OP does, is entirely up to him!!!!

I will continue to post my view on matters, within this (and other) forum(s) on TV, whether you agree with them or not! I will not submit to bullying.

A word for your dictionary:- 'Ogliarch'.

No, what I did was counter bloated misinformation to the OP, that's what is supposed to be done on a forum that is intended to provide less informed members with an informed perspective as was the OP's intent..

It also seems that several other informed members have sided with my position including one who is well into the tire manufacturing and installation industry, so to continue the argument is just making you look even sillier it would seem..

Oh, just noticed, where did I abuse poor little Brissance in my previous posts??

BMW engineers have a superior knowledge over mine eh? And just how do you know I'm not or have not been a BMW suspension designer?? I'm not mind you but my experience with performance suspension is second to none when it comes to enhancing for stock based cars in track conditions so I'd say I'm pretty much on par with some of their top designers just not the electronic trick stuff only found on street cars and not necessary nor desired on the track..

You got one thing right though, what the OP does is entirely up to him which is why I countered your gobbledygook with real world facts and perspective..

So where is the bullying? This ain't no school yard and there are plenty of well informed members here so stop pouting, if you can't post the proper facts then expect to get countered by me or someone else as equally versed so grow up a little will ya?

Edited March 29, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[steelepulse]

20 inch rims and tires look nice on the 5 series. Of course BMW wants you to buy their run flat product, but will the car ride and handle without them? Of course it will!

[Spoonman]

Why is bimmer warranty not voided if one swaps out the runflats to normal tyres ?

[hakku]

All M5's come with normal tires, that is top of the line and for that car they choose the best solution available..

The runflat is not an upgrade, it is a cost and weight saving for the manufacturing process.

H

[mortenaa]

A few months after buying a 3-series, I changed the tires from run-flats to normal ones. Wow, what a huge difference! More quiet and smoother ride The showroom told me many people do it, and its absolutely OK from their side, but not from a safety perspective.

[transam]

It seems that any-one who doesn't share your ideals and offers an alternative argument, to yours, needs to be brought in line.

It appears that you probably see them as a threat to your feeling of prestige and iIf you can't get them to submit to your vour view, by a technical argument you become abusive.

How you choose to interpret what I said and alluded to, is up to you.

I maintain that BMW's design team have a superior knowledge of their product, when compared to yours. They designed, tested and produced their product using the gobbldygook you seem to hate. Within that gobbeldygook. there's also procedures for support of the product. It's a relatively new car, so BMW, should be the first port of call, in order to address the problem.

What the OP does, is entirely up to him!!!!

I will continue to post my view on matters, within this (and other) forum(s) on TV, whether you agree with them or not! I will not submit to bullying.

A word for your dictionary:- 'Ogliarch'.

No, what I did was counter bloated misinformation to the OP, that's what is supposed to be done on a forum that is intended to provide less informed members with an informed perspective as was the OP's intent..

It also seems that several other informed members have sided with my position including one who is well into the tire manufacturing and installation industry, so to continue the argument is just making you look even sillier it would seem..

Oh, just noticed, where did I abuse poor little Brissance in my previous posts??

BMW engineers have a superior knowledge over mine eh? And just how do you know I'm not or have not been a BMW suspension designer?? I'm not mind you but my experience with performance suspension is second to none when it comes to enhancing for stock based cars in track conditions so I'd say I'm pretty much on par with some of their top designers just not the electronic trick stuff only found on street cars and not necessary nor desired on the track..

You got one thing right though, what the OP does is entirely up to him which is why I countered your gobbledygook with real world facts and perspective..

So where is the bullying? This ain't no school yard and there are plenty of well informed members here so stop pouting, if you can't post the proper facts then expect to get countered by me or someone else as equally versed so grow up a little will ya?

Behave Warpy, you never were a BMW engineer, but everything else to do with 4 wheels it seems, ''we know'' eh.

[Woodsie888]

I used to have a Thai spec E60 525i without Runflats and also a UK spec 530i with Runflats at the same time. The 530 ride was very harsh compared to the 525, although to be fair, the 530 was a Sport version and on low profile 19" tires. The 525 was on 17". By the way I had both cars in the UK, so was comparing them on the same roads.

My 320d Sport here has 18" Runflats and the ride is very, very choppy. I am also currently driving a new 5 Series here which has Runflats and the ride is perfectly acceptable for me.

BMW have freely admitted ever since they started fitting Runflats that their biggest headache has been ride quality. However I am of the opinion that they are slowly, along with close the collaboration of the Tyre Companies improving these issues.

The suspension tuning of these cars is without doubt different from the cars not fitted with Runflats. Obviously changing a car Runflat car to non Runflats is not a major issue, but the fact remains, the cars do have different set ups.

It seems to me each new model they release is significantly better in this ride quality than the superseded model and I am keen to try the new F30 3 Series when deliveries start, although they are going to be on 17" rims compared to the current E90 Sport version's 18".

Perhaps that is a good thing in view of the road surfaces here.

Anyway, this is only my personal opinion and experience with these tyres and others may have an entirely different thoughts.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Woodsie888

[WarpSpeed]

It seems that any-one who doesn't share your ideals and offers an alternative argument, to yours, needs to be brought in line.

It appears that you probably see them as a threat to your feeling of prestige and iIf you can't get them to submit to your vour view, by a technical argument you become abusive.

How you choose to interpret what I said and alluded to, is up to you.

I maintain that BMW's design team have a superior knowledge of their product, when compared to yours. They designed, tested and produced their product using the gobbldygook you seem to hate. Within that gobbeldygook. there's also procedures for support of the product. It's a relatively new car, so BMW, should be the first port of call, in order to address the problem.

What the OP does, is entirely up to him!!!!

I will continue to post my view on matters, within this (and other) forum(s) on TV, whether you agree with them or not! I will not submit to bullying.

A word for your dictionary:- 'Ogliarch'.

No, what I did was counter bloated misinformation to the OP, that's what is supposed to be done on a forum that is intended to provide less informed members with an informed perspective as was the OP's intent..

It also seems that several other informed members have sided with my position including one who is well into the tire manufacturing and installation industry, so to continue the argument is just making you look even sillier it would seem..

Oh, just noticed, where did I abuse poor little Brissance in my previous posts??

BMW engineers have a superior knowledge over mine eh? And just how do you know I'm not or have not been a BMW suspension designer?? I'm not mind you but my experience with performance suspension is second to none when it comes to enhancing for stock based cars in track conditions so I'd say I'm pretty much on par with some of their top designers just not the electronic trick stuff only found on street cars and not necessary nor desired on the track..

You got one thing right though, what the OP does is entirely up to him which is why I countered your gobbledygook with real world facts and perspective..

So where is the bullying? This ain't no school yard and there are plenty of well informed members here so stop pouting, if you can't post the proper facts then expect to get countered by me or someone else as equally versed so grow up a little will ya?

Behave Warpy, you never were a BMW engineer, but everything else to do with 4 wheels it seems, ''we know'' eh.

Sure gramps, I am behaving, just calling a spade a spade is all.. Once you learn that you'll finally catch on too..

Edited March 31, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

I used to have a Thai spec E60 525i without Runflats and also a UK spec 530i with Runflats at the same time. The 530 ride was very harsh compared to the 525, although to be fair, the 530 was a Sport version and on low profile 19" tires. The 525 was on 17". By the way I had both cars in the UK, so was comparing them on the same roads.

My 320d Sport here has 18" Runflats and the ride is very, very choppy. I am also currently driving a new 5 Series here which has Runflats and the ride is perfectly acceptable for me.

BMW have freely admitted ever since they started fitting Runflats that their biggest headache has been ride quality. However I am of the opinion that they are slowly, along with close the collaboration of the Tyre Companies improving these issues.

The suspension tuning of these cars is without doubt different from the cars not fitted with Runflats. Obviously changing a car Runflat car to non Runflats is not a major issue, but the fact remains, the cars do have different set ups.

It seems to me each new model they release is significantly better in this ride quality than the superseded model and I am keen to try the new F30 3 Series when deliveries start, although they are going to be on 17" rims compared to the current E90 Sport version's 18".

Perhaps that is a good thing in view of the road surfaces here.

Anyway, this is only my personal opinion and experience with these tyres and others may have an entirely different thoughts.

This was never the issue..

[transam]

It seems that any-one who doesn't share your ideals and offers an alternative argument, to yours, needs to be brought in line.

It appears that you probably see them as a threat to your feeling of prestige and iIf you can't get them to submit to your vour view, by a technical argument you become abusive.

How you choose to interpret what I said and alluded to, is up to you.

I maintain that BMW's design team have a superior knowledge of their product, when compared to yours. They designed, tested and produced their product using the gobbldygook you seem to hate. Within that gobbeldygook. there's also procedures for support of the product. It's a relatively new car, so BMW, should be the first port of call, in order to address the problem.

What the OP does, is entirely up to him!!!!

I will continue to post my view on matters, within this (and other) forum(s) on TV, whether you agree with them or not! I will not submit to bullying.

A word for your dictionary:- 'Ogliarch'.

No, what I did was counter bloated misinformation to the OP, that's what is supposed to be done on a forum that is intended to provide less informed members with an informed perspective as was the OP's intent..

It also seems that several other informed members have sided with my position including one who is well into the tire manufacturing and installation industry, so to continue the argument is just making you look even sillier it would seem..

Oh, just noticed, where did I abuse poor little Brissance in my previous posts??

BMW engineers have a superior knowledge over mine eh? And just how do you know I'm not or have not been a BMW suspension designer?? I'm not mind you but my experience with performance suspension is second to none when it comes to enhancing for stock based cars in track conditions so I'd say I'm pretty much on par with some of their top designers just not the electronic trick stuff only found on street cars and not necessary nor desired on the track..

You got one thing right though, what the OP does is entirely up to him which is why I countered your gobbledygook with real world facts and perspective..

So where is the bullying? This ain't no school yard and there are plenty of well informed members here so stop pouting, if you can't post the proper facts then expect to get countered by me or someone else as equally versed so grow up a little will ya?

Behave Warpy, you never were a BMW engineer, but everything else to do with 4 wheels it seems, ''we know'' eh.

Sure gramps, I am behaving, just calling a spade a spade is all.. Once you learn that you'll finally catch on too..

Gramps, , This ''gramps'' was quicker off the line than the youngsters.

[WarpSpeed]

No, what I did was counter bloated misinformation to the OP, that's what is supposed to be done on a forum that is intended to provide less informed members with an informed perspective as was the OP's intent..

It also seems that several other informed members have sided with my position including one who is well into the tire manufacturing and installation industry, so to continue the argument is just making you look even sillier it would seem..

Oh, just noticed, where did I abuse poor little Brissance in my previous posts??

BMW engineers have a superior knowledge over mine eh? And just how do you know I'm not or have not been a BMW suspension designer?? I'm not mind you but my experience with performance suspension is second to none when it comes to enhancing for stock based cars in track conditions so I'd say I'm pretty much on par with some of their top designers just not the electronic trick stuff only found on street cars and not necessary nor desired on the track..

You got one thing right though, what the OP does is entirely up to him which is why I countered your gobbledygook with real world facts and perspective..

So where is the bullying? This ain't no school yard and there are plenty of well informed members here so stop pouting, if you can't post the proper facts then expect to get countered by me or someone else as equally versed so grow up a little will ya?

Behave Warpy, you never were a BMW engineer, but everything else to do with 4 wheels it seems, ''we know'' eh.

Sure gramps, I am behaving, just calling a spade a spade is all.. Once you learn that you'll finally catch on too..

Gramps, , This ''gramps'' was quicker off the line than the youngsters.

And?? How does your missus feel about that?? See that's what's good about circuit racing, you get more seat time as it's more about endurance and you get to savor the curves and shift gears and even your missus can play with the shifter before the real event kicks off ..

Edited March 31, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Sadly, she was never interested in the noisy stuff.

[stevenl]

Stop the bickering please.

[transam]

Stop the bickering please.

A new Moderator eh, welcome.

[Woodsie888]

I used to have a Thai spec E60 525i without Runflats and also a UK spec 530i with Runflats at the same time. The 530 ride was very harsh compared to the 525, although to be fair, the 530 was a Sport version and on low profile 19" tires. The 525 was on 17". By the way I had both cars in the UK, so was comparing them on the same roads.

My 320d Sport here has 18" Runflats and the ride is very, very choppy. I am also currently driving a new 5 Series here which has Runflats and the ride is perfectly acceptable for me.

BMW have freely admitted ever since they started fitting Runflats that their biggest headache has been ride quality. However I am of the opinion that they are slowly, along with close the collaboration of the Tyre Companies improving these issues.

The suspension tuning of these cars is without doubt different from the cars not fitted with Runflats. Obviously changing a car Runflat car to non Runflats is not a major issue, but the fact remains, the cars do have different set ups.

It seems to me each new model they release is significantly better in this ride quality than the superseded model and I am keen to try the new F30 3 Series when deliveries start, although they are going to be on 17" rims compared to the current E90 Sport version's 18".

Perhaps that is a good thing in view of the road surfaces here.

Anyway, this is only my personal opinion and experience with these tyres and others may have an entirely different thoughts.

This was never the issue..

It is exactly the issue. The OP wanted to know if it is possible to change over.

Your know all, condescending attitude does you no favours. I am sure after reading many of your posts, you consider your self an expert in the subject of Automobiles. Like me, I feel very certain that many others reading this forum beg to differ.

[WarpSpeed]

Stop the bickering please.

What bickering Steve? This is light hearted banter for a change..

[WarpSpeed]

I used to have a Thai spec E60 525i without Runflats and also a UK spec 530i with Runflats at the same time. The 530 ride was very harsh compared to the 525, although to be fair, the 530 was a Sport version and on low profile 19" tires. The 525 was on 17". By the way I had both cars in the UK, so was comparing them on the same roads.

My 320d Sport here has 18" Runflats and the ride is very, very choppy. I am also currently driving a new 5 Series here which has Runflats and the ride is perfectly acceptable for me.

BMW have freely admitted ever since they started fitting Runflats that their biggest headache has been ride quality. However I am of the opinion that they are slowly, along with close the collaboration of the Tyre Companies improving these issues.

The suspension tuning of these cars is without doubt different from the cars not fitted with Runflats. Obviously changing a car Runflat car to non Runflats is not a major issue, but the fact remains, the cars do have different set ups.

It seems to me each new model they release is significantly better in this ride quality than the superseded model and I am keen to try the new F30 3 Series when deliveries start, although they are going to be on 17" rims compared to the current E90 Sport version's 18".

Perhaps that is a good thing in view of the road surfaces here.

Anyway, this is only my personal opinion and experience with these tyres and others may have an entirely different thoughts.

This was never the issue..

It is exactly the issue. The OP wanted to know if it is possible to change over.

Your know all, condescending attitude does you no favours. I am sure after reading many of your posts, you consider your self an expert in the subject of Automobiles. Like me, I feel very certain that many others reading this forum beg to differ.

It is not the issue as the issue raised by the BMW "engineer" was that the OP would have to change his entire suspension set up at a considerable cost to change from run flats to normal tires and as I and others pointed out that is not the case but it was too late for you as you sided with him. Your post above was backtracking from your original support of his point when you realized you were on the wrong side of knowledge..

You know what, I had an entire response laid out but I just realized your not worth it, you're too obtuse to even understand so rather then post it and have one of the many over sensitive children here complain just to have it deleted because your authority has been questioned, I'll just post this dismissive and "condescending" response instead..

You have a lot of inward searching of your own character and knowledge before casting dispersion's about someone else is all I'll say.. It's obvious to those who matter here you've turned this personal since you lost the point by siding with the BMW "engineer" on the previous page and are now trying to save face....

I see once again that T/A has sided with the wrong side of justice just to oppose me, what a character....More like a lack there of..

Sorry Steve it was light hearted banter but I should know better then to even try...

[Woodsie888]

I used to have a Thai spec E60 525i without Runflats and also a UK spec 530i with Runflats at the same time. The 530 ride was very harsh compared to the 525, although to be fair, the 530 was a Sport version and on low profile 19" tires. The 525 was on 17". By the way I had both cars in the UK, so was comparing them on the same roads.

My 320d Sport here has 18" Runflats and the ride is very, very choppy. I am also currently driving a new 5 Series here which has Runflats and the ride is perfectly acceptable for me.

BMW have freely admitted ever since they started fitting Runflats that their biggest headache has been ride quality. However I am of the opinion that they are slowly, along with close the collaboration of the Tyre Companies improving these issues.

The suspension tuning of these cars is without doubt different from the cars not fitted with Runflats. Obviously changing a car Runflat car to non Runflats is not a major issue, but the fact remains, the cars do have different set ups.

It seems to me each new model they release is significantly better in this ride quality than the superseded model and I am keen to try the new F30 3 Series when deliveries start, although they are going to be on 17" rims compared to the current E90 Sport version's 18".

Perhaps that is a good thing in view of the road surfaces here.

Anyway, this is only my personal opinion and experience with these tyres and others may have an entirely different thoughts.

This was never the issue..

It is exactly the issue. The OP wanted to know if it is possible to change over.

Your know all, condescending attitude does you no favours. I am sure after reading many of your posts, you consider your self an expert in the subject of Automobiles. Like me, I feel very certain that many others reading this forum beg to differ.

It is not the issue as the issue raised by the BMW "engineer" was that the OP would have to change his entire suspension set up at a considerable cost to change from run flats to normal tires and as I and others pointed out that is not the case but it was too late for you as you sided with him. Your post above was backtracking from your original support of his point when you realized you were on the wrong side of knowledge..

You know what, I had an entire response laid out but I just realized your not worth it, you're too obtuse to even understand so rather then post it and have one of the many over sensitive children here complain just to have it deleted because your authority has been questioned, I'll just post this dismissive and "condescending" response instead..

You have a lot of inward searching of your own character and knowledge before casting dispersion's about someone else is all I'll say.. It's obvious to those who matter here you've turned this personal since you lost the point by siding with the BMW "engineer" on the previous page and are now trying to save face....

I see once again that T/A has sided with the wrong side of justice just to oppose me, what a character....More like a lack there of..

Sorry Steve it was light hearted banter but I should know better then to even try...

I fail to see where I am either back tracking, lost the point, saving face or in fact siding with anybody. You however are still exhibiting the characteristics previously mentioned.

[skippybangkok]

Called BMW today, they kinda still recommend run-flats, and say that the normal tires are too soft ( but they are willing to put Michelin on @ same price as others.

Down side, they want 15k baht for the mini spare wheel with tyre which can run 80km.

I still recon go this route, as i think with run flats you are supposed to replace them if you get a nail in them ??????? ( patched on a year or more back, still going fine )

[skippybangkok]

Waow !!!!! What a difference. Got new tires last night, and what a massive difference. Cabin so quiet now.

If you ever get run flats as an option, decline them as they are so ^#%{ annoying in terms of noise after about a year

[skippybangkok]

Pps......

It's perfect in terms of smooth ride now compared to the *#^%+#* run flats.