What An Awful Way To Go.

[theblether]

I think the Embassy should have done more in this individual case given the nature of the illness he face. This is not the typical story of a Brit abroad in distress expecting to be bailed out and have their hand held. This is a disease reportedly with no cure so one would have expected more in this extreme circumstance.

And let's not forget this is not a British national who had no cover, he should have been covered by Thai social security (money deducted from pay check by employer but not forwarded to Government).

What extenuating circumstances should prompt the Embasy to get involved if the above does not?

@ste860 I am sorry for your loss, to see a friend deteriorate is a terrible thing.

There appears to be no doubt whatsoever that the Thai employer is at fault here, it seems to be a callous fraud has been perpetrated, and as others have pointed out the lesson for many may be to check the reality of your insurance payments to your Thai employers, don't just believe the promise.

This gentleman appears to have been a long term ex-pat who lived with a chronic degenerative disease. If that is the case then he should have flown home to his family. We UK citizens know that the NHS would have treated him, let's not get into the rights and wrongs of people flying in for treatment, we know that the NHS would have done it.

If this gentleman has chosen to die in Thailand rather than fly home then as far as I'm concerned the Embassy is absolved of responsibility.

[KarenBravo]

The job of the British embassy is to drum up business for British companies.

Individual British citizens in need (even if it's just a replacement passport0 are considered a nuisance.

[Swiss1960]

I am not British, this is from an Australian perspective. Firstly, my sympathies to this poor chap and his family.

Secondly, I for one would always register with the Australian Embassy if I planned to live in a foreign country for some time. I have no doubt that the Australian Embassy, and the UK Embassy, would do their best to assist their nationals in difficult or dangerous circumstances, but I certainly would not expect them to assist in situations of personal hardship that could have been mitigated by sensible use of health and/or travel insurance.

Taxpayers pay for the services that Governments offer, and most, probably the vast majority, of taxpayers would not approve of their Governments providing services that should be paid for by the individual when they travel to foreign countries, particularly when the purpose is to work there.

I know its a reality of life but it saddens me to read this and many other posts about the costs to the british tax payer. surely a life trumps any amount of money. i know i am not being realistic but it really upsets me that money is the be all and end of all. it really makes me want to cry sometimes.

I agree that it sounds sad... but fact of life is that in any society (not only the British), there are too many people who see the government and all of it's offices (social welfare, unemployment, health etc.) as "self-servicing" organisations where they can go and ask for money when they have yourself f** up and / or are just to lazy to get themselves out of trouble...

Of course, the case here is different, however government organisations have huge troubles to differentiate such cases from their "standard" self-serviciing clients and the rules that they have to follow and the resources they have available don't give them much leeway for such a differentiation. This is true not only for British but every government worldwide... and the worse the economy, the more the government needs to safe money, the less flexibility they have.

[inthepink]

I think the Embassy should have done more in this individual case given the nature of the illness he face. This is not the typical story of a Brit abroad in distress expecting to be bailed out and have their hand held. This is a disease reportedly with no cure so one would have expected more in this extreme circumstance.

And let's not forget this is not a British national who had no cover, he should have been covered by Thai social security (money deducted from pay check by employer but not forwarded to Government).

What extenuating circumstances should prompt the Embasy to get involved if the above does not?

@ste860 I am sorry for your loss, to see a friend deteriorate is a terrible thing.

There appears to be no doubt whatsoever that the Thai employer is at fault here, it seems to be a callous fraud has been perpetrated, and as others have pointed out the lesson for many may be to check the reality of your insurance payments to your Thai employers, don't just believe the promise.

This gentleman appears to have been a long term ex-pat who lived with a chronic degenerative disease. If that is the case then he should have flown home to his family. We UK citizens know that the NHS would have treated him, let's not get into the rights and wrongs of people flying in for treatment, we know that the NHS would have done it.

If this gentleman has chosen to die in Thailand rather than fly home then as far as I'm concerned the Embassy is absolved of responsibility.

In answer to your earlier post (I can't be bothered to go back and quote it) you need to read all three article that pertain to this case in order to find out all the facts. One of them states quite clearly that his brother did at one point fly over here. It is also stated that he was diagnosed with CREST syndrome a year ago, by Thai doctors. This was after UK doctors had found various auto immune problems but had not yet come to a conclusive diagnosis. Furthermore, he was admitted to hospital as an emergency case in January with respiratory problems.

Given all of the above, and I am in no way trying to detract from the sadness of this case, it is clear that he knew he was ill even before he set foot in Thailand. It is also clear that he knew he was suffering from an incurable disease a year before he passed away. The emergency visit in January must have made him realise that his condition was worsening.

None of this excuses the educational establishment in question for not paying his contributions into the scheme but I am a little unclear as to what difference this would have made? Surely he would have ended up in a government hospital anyway? As for the British Embassy, I don't think it was their responsibility to interfere in this case.

Edited March 28, 2012 by inthepink

[StreetCowboy]

Some good points there theblether. IIt all boils down to reliance on the state as usual...whether home or abroad.

I favour neither in any circumstance..and not even insurance companies. Better to have a few bob tucked away for use in an emergency in my view.

Edit: That is not to say I don't have adequate insurance. I do. Its simply sensible belt and braces....etc.

Unfortunately, we can't set aside enough to cover all the risks to which we are exposed. Insurance companies can, through the magic of actuarial averaging.

I would far rather raise the limits on my insurance cover, and also raise the Excess, which I can cover with set-aside, or by selling up ready assets. But what I can't cover is a huge sum for ongoing treatment... particularly not if my illness renders me unfit for work

SC

[KimoMax]

Far too many people traveling to Thailand and many other parts of the world away from their home Counties fail to take proper precautions and expect their Embassies to come to the Rescue.

It is up to each individual to take care of their own self and plan accordingly in case of medical or financial problems.

If that can not be done, Then Don't travel to a foreign Country.

No wonder Immigration is on expats to make sure they have money in the bank or a substantial income.

[wamberal]

I am not British, this is from an Australian perspective. Firstly, my sympathies to this poor chap and his family.

Secondly, I for one would always register with the Australian Embassy if I planned to live in a foreign country for some time. I have no doubt that the Australian Embassy, and the UK Embassy, would do their best to assist their nationals in difficult or dangerous circumstances, but I certainly would not expect them to assist in situations of personal hardship that could have been mitigated by sensible use of health and/or travel insurance.

Taxpayers pay for the services that Governments offer, and most, probably the vast majority, of taxpayers would not approve of their Governments providing services that should be paid for by the individual when they travel to foreign countries, particularly when the purpose is to work there.

I know its a reality of life but it saddens me to read this and many other posts about the costs to the british tax payer. surely a life trumps any amount of money. i know i am not being realistic but it really upsets me that money is the be all and end of all. it really makes me want to cry sometimes.

You are obviously a caring person. There are plenty of ways you can care for others, my wife and I do our bit, both in cash and in kind. We are also taxpayers, and we watch governments being voted in and out of office, largely these days on the question of financial discipline.

As individuals, some of us have a conscience, and we should show compassion as and when we can. I was simply stating the obvious: governments have unlimited ways to spend money, and limits on the amount of money that they can spend.

[StreetCowboy]

If you're not happy about dying in a foreign country, you shouldn't be living there.

Its bound to end sooner or later, we don't get to choose when, so if you have strong feelings about where you want to die, the sooner you move there, the better.

Residents should expect their health care where they live and pay tax, and make appropriate provisions, not necessarily from the same country where they get their passport.

SC

[edwinclapham]

Far too many people traveling to Thailand and many other parts of the world away from their home Counties fail to take proper precautions and expect their Embassies to come to the Rescue.

It is up to each individual to take care of their own self and plan accordingly in case of medical or financial problems.

If that can not be done, Then Don't travel to a foreign Country.

No wonder Immigration is on expats to make sure they have money in the bank or a substantial income.

My feelings entirely! I unfortunately had a legitimate reason to turn to the British Embassy during the Phuket Tsunami both in Phuket and Bangkok . Given the magnitude of the disaster I made many allowances for them to get their act together. I was not the only one left very unimpressed and extremely isolated . Did Jack Straw make contact with his own citizens on his "jolly" to view the aftermath .. nope. Were the Embassy staff in Bangkok helpful.. nope!. actually they were downright insolent.

My travelling companion at the time was an Australian, the care and attention she received from her embassy was outstanding.

No one of course predicted the scale of the tsunami but the Australians/Americans etc appeared so much more organised in the handling of their citizens.

However..Hurricane Katrina and British citizens were let down once again! One would imagine that a "Disaster Programme/Policy" ( as any large Uk hospital has on a regular basis) would be put into action, but all I can say is that they failed their own people dismally.

I have since become an Australian citizen and whilst many Australian bemoan the fact that their embassy "have failed them" over some matter, I remain more impressed with them then the Brits which is extremely sad.

These are the occasions that I expect to turn to the embassy for guidance and assistance not for sickness/travel arrangements or for a large amount of petty incidences .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/11/uk.politics

The Foreign Office was accused last night of failing Britons abroad as details of its treatment of victims of the Asian tsunami were laid bare by The Observer.

Families who survived the tidal wave accused officials of a catalogue of errors - among them being slow to evacuate Britons and repeatedly failing to answer pleas for assistance - raising questions over the service to UK citizens abroad.

The Foreign Office said it had 'apologised unreservedly' to one survivor, Michael Holland, son-in-law of the film director Lord Attenborough, whose wife, mother and daughter died in the Boxing Day disaster last year.

It has also admitted failing to give proper help to Kate Rage, a widowed British mother. She was turned away when she asked officials for help, because her husband was Swedish and the three children had Swedish passports.

Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, faces a parliamentary grilling next month over the care given to survivors and the future of consular services, supposedly the first port of call for Britons in trouble abroad.

Politicians said the scandal raised serious questions about the resilience of embassy services in the event of another disaster. British families caught up in Hurricane Katrina also say UK officials did nothing to help them in the key first hours of the New Orleans floods.

'The government said the Bali bombings had been a wake-up call for consular officials, yet the tsunami caught them napping. According to those caught up in Hurricane Katrina, they remain fast asleep,' said Liam Fox, the shadow foreign secretary.

The families interviewed by The Observer had all been staying in Khao Lak, which bore the brunt of deaths; the British consular team based themselves more than 100km away in the resort of Phuket.

[GentlemanJim]

The Blether is bang on track with all his posts.

This is in absolutely no way anything to do with the British Embassy. When you travel, YOU are responsible for your travel, accommodation, food and medical bills. YOU have to make sure that you have adequate insurance cover. The people totally negligent here, that need a class action slapping on them is the employer. How on earth do you expect the Embassy to take care of you medically? What should they have done? They are not a visiting service, though they do more to visit British Nationals in prison than ANY other Embassy. They cannot pay your medical bills! Imagine the consequences! Had they paid the guys medical bill then why am I paying 500 pound a year for medical insurance? With such a legal precedence set I should and could expect the Embassy to have to pay?

As regards the Embassy staff being difficult and sitting around doing nothing, the complainers could not be further from the truth. I have been inside the Consular section and met all the people at their own desks and spoken to them. Great, pleasant, amenable and helpful professional people that take pride in what they do. Many are paid local pay rates (yes that is correct, local not British!). They do everything they can to help..and more. The prison visits are regular, I have seen staff stop on route, buying soap, pens, food etc for prisoners, that comes out of their own pocket, they dont get reimbursed for it. How many of you would spend 500 baht a week on prisoners? I have been behind the glass during consular opening hours and witnessed the barrage of abuse that the staff get. I saw one woman and husband come in

Woman "My <deleted> of an uzband ere lost our money and credit cards last night while he woz pi**ed"

Embassy staff "And how may I help you madam",

woman "well can we get a loan or can you issue us wiv another credit card"?

Embassy "I am sorry madam we are unable to do that",

woman "well thats no f***ing use to us is it you tart, what are we supposed to live on now, we aint got any money, I want to speak to your f***ing manager now"

Manager comes out, same same, womans expletives get worse and are eventually led out by security.

I could nbot believe my eyes and ears, and that was just one story. I saw a few, all of them nightmare people. In all honesty it is amazing the Embassy staff can be civil to people at any times given the amount of abuse they get. They have my utmost respect.

My condolences go to the mans family but this was a family and personal issue, and one that was exacerbated by the University's fraudulent activity. We would all do well to learn from this tragedy.

[HeavyDrinker]

http://www.goworkabroad.co.uk/understanding-embassy-services.html

[harrry]

"Most British people abroad that need to contact their local British Embassy or Consulate have an issue that is related to the law, drugs, money or health. Although the offices are keen to point out what they will not do, they are also passionate about helping British people in difficulty, so even if they cannot ‘solve’ your problem, they can help you to solve it. This means that it is always a good idea to contact your local Embassy or Consulate if you find yourself abroad and in trouble, as they will help you." http://www.goworkabr...y-services.html

Does not sound as if Assif is very passionate about helping.

Edited March 28, 2012 by harrry

[KNJ]

Sad story condolences:

Woman "My <deleted> of an uzband ere lost our money and credit cards last night while he woz pi**ed"

Embassy staff "And how may I help you madam",

woman "well can I get a new husband, preferably one with cash and a credit card on his possesion"?

Embassy "I am sorry madam we are unable to do that",

woman " welll the phone was lost too, can you contact our bank/brother so they can wire some money to us"

Embassy"Lets see what we can do"

They are not bank, social security service, medical insurance company nor lawyers on standby.

I would be surprised if they had not offered to contact relatives in UK for this poor man that is about all they can do.

Did they react well in the tsunami, or Katarina absolutely NOT, and that is shameful, and the staff, especially the ambassador and his aides willl have those incidents on their records and conscious till their deaths.

Clearly this guy had been sick a while, and in Thailand a while as well, how did it take so long for him to find out he was not covered by local insurance?

tests in January, why did he choose to remain till now?

Full kudos for those expats and locals who tried to improve his situation, but without more facts it seems his situation was very much self induced, and the consulate could not have done very much more

[StreetCowboy]

Sad story condolences:

Woman "My <deleted> of an uzband ere lost our money and credit cards last night while he woz pi**ed"

Embassy staff "And how may I help you madam",

woman "well can I get a new husband, preferably one with cash and a credit card on his possesion"?

Embassy "I am sorry madam we are unable to do that",

woman " welll the phone was lost too, can you contact our bank/brother so they can wire some money to us"

Embassy"Lets see what we can do"

They are not bank, social security service, medical insurance company nor lawyers on standby.

I would be surprised if they had not offered to contact relatives in UK for this poor man that is about all they can do.

Did they react well in the tsunami, or Katarina absolutely NOT, and that is shameful, and the staff, especially the ambassador and his aides willl have those incidents on their records and conscious till their deaths.

Clearly this guy had been sick a while, and in Thailand a while as well, how did it take so long for him to find out he was not covered by local insurance?

tests in January, why did he choose to remain till now?

Full kudos for those expats and locals who tried to improve his situation, but without more facts it seems his situation was very much self induced, and the consulate could not have done very much more

As I recall from previous threads, he discovered that he was not insured after seeking treatment; that was when he discovered his employer had not been paying his national insurance on his behalf. Perhaps the embassy could have reasonably taken it upon themselves to have tried to get him the benefit of local healthcare that he would have been entitled to, had his employer complied with the law and made the NI payments. Maybe they were doing so, but I imagine that when the embassy officials pushed, the wheels of bureaucracy could grind exceedingly slow and fine in such a case. WHat the embassy could not justifiably do was step in and bankroll his treatment in the absence of the insurance that he was entitled to from his employer.

SC

[Orac]

If I was lying dying in a hospital in Bangkok my family would be on the first flight out. You better believe it.

Where was the brother in all this????

To be fair to his brother he did fly over and also ran out of funds himself according to his post on here a couple of weeks ago.

[GentlemanJim]

Sad story condolences:

Woman "My <deleted> of an uzband ere lost our money and credit cards last night while he woz pi**ed"

Embassy staff "And how may I help you madam",

woman "well can I get a new husband, preferably one with cash and a credit card on his possesion"?

Embassy "I am sorry madam we are unable to do that",

woman " welll the phone was lost too, can you contact our bank/brother so they can wire some money to us"

Embassy"Lets see what we can do"

They are not bank, social security service, medical insurance company nor lawyers on standby.

I would be surprised if they had not offered to contact relatives in UK for this poor man that is about all they can do.

Did they react well in the tsunami, or Katarina absolutely NOT, and that is shameful, and the staff, especially the ambassador and his aides willl have those incidents on their records and conscious till their deaths.

Clearly this guy had been sick a while, and in Thailand a while as well, how did it take so long for him to find out he was not covered by local insurance?

tests in January, why did he choose to remain till now?

Full kudos for those expats and locals who tried to improve his situation, but without more facts it seems his situation was very much self induced, and the consulate could not have done very much more

Yes the Embassy did offer to contact anyone in the UK that could help with the dilemma of the woman who was suffering from tourettes and her still drunk husband.

As regards the Tsunami and Katrina, people need to realise that dealing with such disasters really needs specialist training, and as is often the case the need for that specialist training is only identified and delivered after the horse has bolted. Many embassy's now do have crisis management training and God forbid with any such future events, systems will be in place to help the staff deal with the needs of our people. Don't get me wrong, I am not an embassy lover and have had my gripes in the past (and I detest my countries Government and politics), but I just think in times of difficulty and trauma it is often too easy to blame them instead of taking a close look at our own short comings, poor planning and poor preparation.

If nothing else guy's please please use this tragedy to take a close look at your own situation. We are all mortal when it boils down to it. Are you adequately covered if you run into a major (medical) problem? Do you have good insurance and do you understand what it covers and importantly does not cover? have you got relatives anywhere that are aware of your location and whom would help if an embassy staff member contacted them? Are your family/loved ones catered for in the event of a tragedy and does your wife/gf even know how to access money you may leave (you can always leave sealed instructions with a local solicitor)? There are ,many more questions this sad situation raises, I can only think of a few. I have no idea how it would go down with your employer if you were to check your status with them in terms of your health payment schemes out here.

Stop griping about those that cannot help and get stuff down on here that you find out would be beneficial to people and maybe we can avoid this situation occurring for other well meaning expats in Thailand.