Racism Against Farangs

[maxme]

I think a good starting point for defining racism would be discrimination in treatment due to (apparent or perceived) race or nationality.

Aha.......so now we have a " How many angels can dance on the head of a pin " type question.

We end up getting lost in philisophical debates about definitions while young boys are getting their teeth smashed in on the streets of London.

I have more pragmatic view of it, start with the clear and compelling danger, start with the obvious, eradicate that then let the philosophers deal with the nuances.

We both know due to our backgrounds that bigotry is colour blind too.

Even your opinion fall under that category then.

[StreetCowboy]

I think a good starting point for defining racism would be discrimination in treatment due to (apparent or perceived) race or nationality.

Aha.......so now we have a " How many angels can dance on the head of a pin " type question.

We end up getting lost in philisophical debates about definitions while young boys are getting their teeth smashed in on the streets of London.

I have more pragmatic view of it, start with the clear and compelling danger, start with the obvious, eradicate that then let the philosophers deal with the nuances.

We both know due to our backgrounds that bigotry is colour blind too.

I think discussion of assaults in London is irrelevant to consideration of people's treatment in Thai shops, just as psychos murdering people in California is irrelevant to whether or not to marry a Thai muslim.

If you're really bothered about London violence, I am sure there is a more productive and relevant forum in which to take up cudgels.

I was just trying to make sure that we were all using the same version of the English language, and that it was relevant to the thread under discussion.

SC

[theblether]

I think a good starting point for defining racism would be discrimination in treatment due to (apparent or perceived) race or nationality.

Aha.......so now we have a " How many angels can dance on the head of a pin " type question.

We end up getting lost in philisophical debates about definitions while young boys are getting their teeth smashed in on the streets of London.

I have more pragmatic view of it, start with the clear and compelling danger, start with the obvious, eradicate that then let the philosophers deal with the nuances.

We both know due to our backgrounds that bigotry is colour blind too.

I think discussion of assaults in London is irrelevant to consideration of people's treatment in Thai shops, just as psychos murdering people in California is irrelevant to whether or not to marry a Thai muslim.

If you're really bothered about London violence, I am sure there is a more productive and relevant forum in which to take up cudgels.

I was just trying to make sure that we were all using the same version of the English language, and that it was relevant to the thread under discussion.

SC

[connda]

Last thought about racism before I let this thread go. Something to think about by Martin Luther King:

"We must learn to live together as brothers or we are going to perish together as fools."

I think that pretty well sums it up. Ya'll have fun!

[pxlgirl]

We all have our quirks, some people are ok with it, some are not. Your life style is your choice, as well as your appearance, personality and atitude. All of this reflects on you and depending on how good you get the job done, people will perceive you that way. It always takes two, no matter where in the world you are.

So, live your life, develop, improve, adapt, improvise and be aware of the consequences, good and bad. Other than that, grow some balls and accept that not everything is just about you.

[StreetCowboy]

We all have our quirks, some people are ok with it, some are not. Your life style is your choice, as well as your appearance, personality and atitude. All of this reflects on you and depending on how good you get the job done, people will perceive you that way. It always takes two, no matter where in the world you are.

So, live your life, develop, improve, adapt, improvise and be aware of the consequences, good and bad. Other than that, grow some balls and accept that not everything is just about you.

She'll struggle with that advice more than most of us...

In my previous employment, it was rumoured that one of our senior managers had the intention of getting rid of all the farang. A couple of my paler colleagues were released, and one could, if one chose, become paranoid. Or one could accept that the company chose to operate the way that it did, and that our careers are no more secure than anyone else's.

I made no secret of the fact that I considered myself on borrowed time, and that as soon as a local could be found that could do my job for a local salary, that I would be out. But until that time, I considered my job reasonably secure - other than some other concerns which were of a less specific or personal nature.

As it happens, since that time the number of farang has stayed more or less the same - perhaps a slight decrease; I have left, a few have been made redundant, and a couple have joined. In my previous company (a farang company), there was perhaps a preference for brown-nosers, and I felt no less discriminated there, and less able to compensate to overcome that discrimination.

SC

[arthurwait]

F1fanatic: I can't quote your comment. I get: The number of opening quote tags does not match the number of closing quote tags. even when I don't add any quotes. It happens a lot.

Here's my reply:

Humm. A couple of examples of preconceived notions: I thought that the word Farang was derogatory. Now I feel it is a fairly general word to refer to foreigners of European decent (although there are TV members that will disagree). I thought that Buddhist monks were dedicated, meditation practicing, ascetics. I was really wrong on that one. I thought modern Thais were less ethnocentric than they are. I thought Thailand had a pretty good educational system. Now that I've worked within the educational system, I was way off on that one too. I thought petty crimes against foreigner was pretty rampant, but it seems to be localized, i.e., Phuket and Pattaya come to mind.

A typical preconceived notion a new expat may have is all Thais are friendly, smiling people. 555 to the TAT PR folk! Excellent PR campaign! The Southern provinces are a dangerous place to go (I still think that). It's socially acceptable to walk around the city drinking beer out of a bottle (you can but it really isn't). For younger tourists, its OK to drink, smoke dope, and drop X at the full moon parties (no it's not and it will get you thrown in jail, possibly for a long time). Thai food taste great (my God, there is some Lanna village dishes that just turn my stomach). We should ask thebleather. I'm sure he could come up with more, and probably funny ones at that. Oh, and I thought Thai women could actually be romantically enamored with their partners (a few years of marriage and her having one affair that I know of with a "rich" farang has changed my mind on that. And I've heard her talking with her friends, most of whom try to keep multiple farangs sending them money. And my wife's been doing the same over the years. Yeah, silly me for being naive. "It first of month honey. You have money?"

There's millions that are you just need to meet the right ones.

Another of your examples though: A young farang on the sky train with a bargirl looking girl on Friday, I don't think either could speak much English, kept touching her and kissing her.He started to get pissed off when she kept pushing his hands away. It looks like no ones told him about no kissing and touching in public and that the only girls that do except a few loved up couples are bargirls pleasing farangs for the money.

[tobe]

Hmmm

Dress casual smart, keep hair neat and good hygeine and Thais will show a foreigner nornal respect .

Dress like a hippy or like a peasant type wannabe and Thais or others will feel slightly insulted if they have to deal with u.

[maxme]

F1fanatic: I can't quote your comment. I get: The number of opening quote tags does not match the number of closing quote tags. even when I don't add any quotes. It happens a lot.

Here's my reply:

Humm. A couple of examples of preconceived notions: I thought that the word Farang was derogatory. Now I feel it is a fairly general word to refer to foreigners of European decent (although there are TV members that will disagree). I thought that Buddhist monks were dedicated, meditation practicing, ascetics. I was really wrong on that one. I thought modern Thais were less ethnocentric than they are. I thought Thailand had a pretty good educational system. Now that I've worked within the educational system, I was way off on that one too. I thought petty crimes against foreigner was pretty rampant, but it seems to be localized, i.e., Phuket and Pattaya come to mind.

A typical preconceived notion a new expat may have is all Thais are friendly, smiling people. 555 to the TAT PR folk! Excellent PR campaign! The Southern provinces are a dangerous place to go (I still think that). It's socially acceptable to walk around the city drinking beer out of a bottle (you can but it really isn't). For younger tourists, its OK to drink, smoke dope, and drop X at the full moon parties (no it's not and it will get you thrown in jail, possibly for a long time). Thai food taste great (my God, there is some Lanna village dishes that just turn my stomach). We should ask thebleather. I'm sure he could come up with more, and probably funny ones at that. Oh, and I thought Thai women could actually be romantically enamored with their partners (a few years of marriage and her having one affair that I know of with a "rich" farang has changed my mind on that. And I've heard her talking with her friends, most of whom try to keep multiple farangs sending them money. And my wife's been doing the same over the years. Yeah, silly me for being naive. "It first of month honey. You have money?"

There's millions that are you just need to meet the right ones.

Another of your examples though: A young farang on the sky train with a bargirl looking girl on Friday, I don't think either could speak much English, kept touching her and kissing her.He started to get pissed off when she kept pushing his hands away. It looks like no ones told him about no kissing and touching in public and that the only girls that do except a few loved up couples are bargirls pleasing farangs for the money.

What is a bargirl look-a-like? How can you see if she is or is not?

[IanForbes]

Quote by aneliane... Hello all,

I live a quite fugal life here.

I am a frugal person in general and don't like luxury items, I try to respect the environment as much I possible, buy my veggies from organic markets, choose not to have a car and I rescued 5 dogs from the streets. Last month alone I spent 20 000 bath in vet fees, so this is with the house with garden I rent for them my two biggest expenses.

I take buses most of the times, go to public hospitals for healthcare, and patron cheap vegetarians restaurants.

Because of my lifestyle I get confronted mostly to what we could say are "poor" Thai people, who I found have an increasingly negative attitude towards me:

-Shop assistants refusing to serve me,

-nurses at ER pretending not to see me and doing paperwork to avoid attending my urgent medical care,

- doctors refusing me medical care and telling me to go to a private clinic or making me pay expensive and painful treatments that I don't actually need,

- bus assistant telling me to "take a taxi", etc...

It would be very easy for me to drop the soi dogs and spend my money to live comfortably in a condo, travel exclusively by taxi, or get a car, and only go to farangs restaurants. This is not why I came here for: I chose to help.

Living cheaply in Thailand is also a way not to participate in the increasing cost of living which make Thai poor people's life harder everyday.

Living as much as possible in respect of Thai beautiful natural environment, is a way to show that I care.

Taking the bus instead of taxi is doing my bit for the environment.

Going to cheap organic restaurants is encouraging these businesses to resist against poor value american fast food chains.

Spending a good chuck of my earning to help street dogs which have a very hard life here is also a way of giving back.

Most foreigners I talk to don't have the same experience, because everywhere they go they pay double price as I do, and the legendary Thai smile is included.

I totally get Thai peolpe's frustration: the price of flour, eggs, meat, veggies has doubled.

But why do they take their anger on me? Don't they realize, It's the people who pay double price for everything, that makes the costs of living so high?

Making farangs pay more is not helping them, it's only making the few greedy Thais who work with farangs richer, the vast majority of the population will suffer the soaring cost of living.

Farangs bringing their western lifestyle here ( ie double or triple environmental footprint) are the ones destroying their beautiful country, not me!

Or do they resent me for something else ? As in just being here in their country where I apparently should be ? You tell me ...

Anyway it feels better now I said it

Thanks for reading, and if somewhat you feel the same please share.

Thank you

First of all you are doing Thailand a disfavour of helping the soi dogs. Most are a menace and a disgrace to Thailand. They pose traffic hazards and spread disease. They breed in great numbers and bark and howl all night. Most should be rounded up and exterminated, but that is not the Thai way. At least Thailand's neighbouring countries have a more practical solution to excess dogs.

Nobody loves nature more than me, but domestic dogs gone wild is NOT a good thing. I would prefer to have more venomous serpents native to the area than wild soi dogs.

The average person working at a menial job in Thailand seldom makes more than 6000 baht a month. That is not much to afford a bare apartment and have three nourishing meals a day. It's certainly not enough to also buy a motorbike on "time". That is why the local bike shops make a small fortune on repossessing motorbikes for lack of payment. The bikes have already been paid for by the excessive interest rates. These average working class Thais have to watch every baht spent and there are low end cafes offering meals from 20 to 40 baht.

A smart farang who probably has 10 times the available funds of an average Thai can almost act like a king if he or she is willing to live like a Thai, but with a few added extras. I see nothing wrong with being generous to the average Thai. I can easily afford to pay an extra 5 baht for a tip. It won't change the price that Thais will pay. The cafe owner knows what his Thai customers will pay. If he charges too much then the Thai customers will go elsewhere. Because I always eat at the same Thai cafe and I always tip I am given preferential treatment with larger portions and a few other "extras", and, I get treated like family. The Thai cafe owner gave me a big hug the other day when I told him I was leaving for 7 months. That tells me he appreciated my patronage. You are WRONG in thinking the price of things will increase if farangs are willing to pay more. The local wealthy Thais do not tip like foreigners from North America. No matter how wealthy the local Thais might be they ALWAYS pay the lowest price possible. Australians don't tip because they've been raised in a society that nobody tips.

Your tiny effort at saving the environment is wasted in Thailand. It only makes you come across as a begger or a "cheap charlie". Thais don't appreciate cheap charlies and they will show it. I am VERY aware of enerything around me. I've had to be because I live with nature all the time and often deal with dangerous creatures: venomous snakes, spiders and crocodiles in Thailand and Australia, and large bears and wild beasts in Canada. I'm quite adapt at handling nasty dogs as well.

[connda]

F1fanatic: I can't quote your comment. I get: The number of opening quote tags does not match the number of closing quote tags. even when I don't add any quotes. It happens a lot.

Here's my reply:

Humm. A couple of examples of preconceived notions: I thought that the word Farang was derogatory. Now I feel it is a fairly general word to refer to foreigners of European decent (although there are TV members that will disagree). I thought that Buddhist monks were dedicated, meditation practicing, ascetics. I was really wrong on that one. I thought modern Thais were less ethnocentric than they are. I thought Thailand had a pretty good educational system. Now that I've worked within the educational system, I was way off on that one too. I thought petty crimes against foreigner was pretty rampant, but it seems to be localized, i.e., Phuket and Pattaya come to mind.

A typical preconceived notion a new expat may have is all Thais are friendly, smiling people. 555 to the TAT PR folk! Excellent PR campaign! The Southern provinces are a dangerous place to go (I still think that). It's socially acceptable to walk around the city drinking beer out of a bottle (you can but it really isn't). For younger tourists, its OK to drink, smoke dope, and drop X at the full moon parties (no it's not and it will get you thrown in jail, possibly for a long time). Thai food taste great (my God, there is some Lanna village dishes that just turn my stomach). We should ask thebleather. I'm sure he could come up with more, and probably funny ones at that. Oh, and I thought Thai women could actually be romantically enamored with their partners (a few years of marriage and her having one affair that I know of with a "rich" farang has changed my mind on that. And I've heard her talking with her friends, most of whom try to keep multiple farangs sending them money. And my wife's been doing the same over the years. Yeah, silly me for being naive. "It first of month honey. You have money?"

There's millions that are you just need to meet the right ones.

Another of your examples though: A young farang on the sky train with a bargirl looking girl on Friday, I don't think either could speak much English, kept touching her and kissing her.He started to get pissed off when she kept pushing his hands away. It looks like no ones told him about no kissing and touching in public and that the only girls that do except a few loved up couples are bargirls pleasing farangs for the money.

Yeah, the average farang tourist, especially hormone ladened young guys, don't immediately grasp the idea that playing kissy-face and grab-ass in public is a real no-no. I guess they figure the bargirls are cheap and easy, so the whole society must be that way. Then suddenly the sexy, gyrating, uninhibited young lass he met in the Go-Go bar turns into the epitome of Victorian modesty the moment they're in public. Suddenly you have a confused farang, a pissed off bargirl, and their first of many conflicts to come.

Edited April 2, 2012 by connda

[maxme]

Quote by aneliane... Hello all,

I live a quite fugal life here.

I am a frugal person in general and don't like luxury items, I try to respect the environment as much I possible, buy my veggies from organic markets, choose not to have a car and I rescued 5 dogs from the streets. Last month alone I spent 20 000 bath in vet fees, so this is with the house with garden I rent for them my two biggest expenses.

I take buses most of the times, go to public hospitals for healthcare, and patron cheap vegetarians restaurants.

Because of my lifestyle I get confronted mostly to what we could say are "poor" Thai people, who I found have an increasingly negative attitude towards me:

-Shop assistants refusing to serve me,

-nurses at ER pretending not to see me and doing paperwork to avoid attending my urgent medical care,

- doctors refusing me medical care and telling me to go to a private clinic or making me pay expensive and painful treatments that I don't actually need,

- bus assistant telling me to "take a taxi", etc...

It would be very easy for me to drop the soi dogs and spend my money to live comfortably in a condo, travel exclusively by taxi, or get a car, and only go to farangs restaurants. This is not why I came here for: I chose to help.

Living cheaply in Thailand is also a way not to participate in the increasing cost of living which make Thai poor people's life harder everyday.

Living as much as possible in respect of Thai beautiful natural environment, is a way to show that I care.

Taking the bus instead of taxi is doing my bit for the environment.

Going to cheap organic restaurants is encouraging these businesses to resist against poor value american fast food chains.

Spending a good chuck of my earning to help street dogs which have a very hard life here is also a way of giving back.

Most foreigners I talk to don't have the same experience, because everywhere they go they pay double price as I do, and the legendary Thai smile is included.

I totally get Thai peolpe's frustration: the price of flour, eggs, meat, veggies has doubled.

But why do they take their anger on me? Don't they realize, It's the people who pay double price for everything, that makes the costs of living so high?

Making farangs pay more is not helping them, it's only making the few greedy Thais who work with farangs richer, the vast majority of the population will suffer the soaring cost of living.

Farangs bringing their western lifestyle here ( ie double or triple environmental footprint) are the ones destroying their beautiful country, not me!

Or do they resent me for something else ? As in just being here in their country where I apparently should be ? You tell me ...

Anyway it feels better now I said it

Thanks for reading, and if somewhat you feel the same please share.

Thank you

First of all you are doing Thailand a disfavour of helping the soi dogs. Most are a menace and a disgrace to Thailand. They pose traffic hazards and spread disease. They breed in great numbers and bark and howl all night. Most should be rounded up and exterminated, but that is not the Thai way. At least Thailand's neighbouring countries have a more practical solution to excess dogs.

Nobody loves nature more than me, but domestic dogs gone wild is NOT a good thing. I would prefer to have more venomous serpents native to the area than wild soi dogs.

The average person working at a menial job in Thailand seldom makes more than 6000 baht a month. That is not much to afford a bare apartment and have three nourishing meals a day. It's certainly not enough to also buy a motorbike on "time". That is why the local bike shops make a small fortune on repossessing motorbikes for lack of payment. The bikes have already been paid for by the excessive interest rates. These average working class Thais have to watch every baht spent and there are low end cafes offering meals from 20 to 40 baht.

A smart farang who probably has 10 times the available funds of an average Thai can almost act like a king if he or she is willing to live like a Thai, but with a few added extras. I see nothing wrong with being generous to the average Thai. I can easily afford to pay an extra 5 baht for a tip. It won't change the price that Thais will pay. The cafe owner knows what his Thai customers will pay. If he charges too much then the Thai customers will go elsewhere. Because I always eat at the same Thai cafe and I always tip I am given preferential treatment with larger portions and a few other "extras", and, I get treated like family. The Thai cafe owner gave me a big hug the other day when I told him I was leaving for 7 months. That tells me he appreciated my patronage. You are WRONG in thinking the price of things will increase if farangs are willing to pay more. The local wealthy Thais do not tip like foreigners from North America. No matter how wealthy the local Thais might be they ALWAYS pay the lowest price possible. Australians don't tip because they've been raised in a society that nobody tips.

Your tiny effort at saving the environment is wasted in Thailand. It only makes you come across as a begger or a "cheap charlie". Thais don't appreciate cheap charlies and they will show it. I am VERY aware of enerything around me. I've had to be because I live with nature all the time and often deal with dangerous creatures: venomous snakes, spiders and crocodiles in Thailand and Australia, and large bears and wild beasts in Canada. I'm quite adapt at handling nasty dogs as well.

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

[Raesum]

Aneliane-your comments about being told to "take a taxi" by a bus attendant sound extraordinary to me!! I use the buses on Bangkok on almost a daily basis as I live on the outskirts of Bangkok. I have never ever come across the animosity you are describing and can only wonder at what envokes this kind of reaction towards you!!Because of where I live I see no other "farangs"(a term which I use frequently about myself and others and which I like very much) and pretty much try and integrate into my surrounds. I always give and receive a cheery friendly smile and sawasdee Kah and love to be amongst the locals. I have had quite a bit to do with public hospitals and am currently visiting one on almost a daily basis(i go there by bus) as my brother in law has terminal cancer. From my experience the doctors,nurses and staff take pride in their work and try to do the besI they can given the circumstances.I'm sorry you are experiencing such daily trauma.For me-I call my life here-"living in Paradise"

[IanForbes]

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

When you are around animals of any sort, including dogs, it is not their fault for acting normally. But, when you bring dogs into a human environment then it is ALWAYS the human's fault if there are problems. The dogs should either get spayed at birth or destroyed humanely. Those puppy farms should not even be allowed. The average Thai can not afford to look after themself let alone take care of a pet.

And no, I don't live in Issan, but I've traveled through many times. Most of it is just boring farmland that would drive me crazy if I had to live there.

.

[IanForbes]

Aneliane-your comments about being told to "take a taxi" by a bus attendant sound extraordinary to me!! I use the buses on Bangkok on almost a daily basis as I live on the outskirts of Bangkok. I have never ever come across the animosity you are describing and can only wonder at what envokes this kind of reaction towards you!!Because of where I live I see no other "farangs"(a term which I use frequently about myself and others and which I like very much) and pretty much try and integrate into my surrounds. I always give and receive a cheery friendly smile and sawasdee Kah and love to be amongst the locals. I have had quite a bit to do with public hospitals and am currently visiting one on almost a daily basis(i go there by bus) as my brother in law has terminal cancer. From my experience the doctors,nurses and staff take pride in their work and try to do the besI they can given the circumstances.I'm sorry you are experiencing such daily trauma.For me-I call my life here-"living in Paradise"

That's pretty much my experience as well and I've been coming to Thailand for 15 years and travel extensively throughout the country.

[SomTumTiger]

Me too, except to add just one thing...

Dear OP,

I am sorry if I (or other posters) were a bit harsh on this thread. I think your initial post was just asking to be ripped apart. I assume you now realise you are not a victim of racism, and I hope you are happy about that.

I also hope our paths meet again on TV as my view on life is very different to yours, which could make for some interesting debate and humorous banter.

Yours sincerely, brit1984

I think you should look into your own self, as to why you need to be in such denial

What is so extraordinary about someone experiencing racist ?

In every country you have people thinking that foreigners should not come to their land.

Why would Thailand be THE exception.

Thai people are just like everywhere.

You are not in Lalaland.

Deal with it

I am disappointed you did not accept my apology but would like to wish you good luck for the future

Compared to racism, what people say here is childplay, im getting thick skinned

What you are experiencing isn't even close to racism lol. Take a walk with me in rural Tennessee, USA. Ill show you some racism.

[maxme]

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

When you are around animals of any sort, including dogs, it is not their fault for acting normally. But, when you bring dogs into a human environment then it is ALWAYS the human's fault if there are problems. The dogs should either get spayed at birth or destroyed humanely. Those puppy farms should not even be allowed. The average Thai can not afford to look after themself let alone take care of a pet.

And no, I don't live in Issan, but I've traveled through many times. Most of it is just boring farmland that would drive me crazy if I had to live there.

.

You touched one point there... responsibility.

Killing them won´t solve the problem since the Thais will still take in puppies and let them go after they have grown up since they are not cute anymore. I can imagine you´re not a dog owner but if you are then you need to sharpen that logic sense of yours. In your initial post you describe them as vermin, looking at humanity we breed faster than rabbits and take no responsibility for it nor do we think of the repercussions of it. It won´t help killing the soi dogs off neither will chip marking them. The Thais need to be taught responsibility of what it means to take care of a living being. Nothing will be done until that happens.

Edited April 2, 2012 by maxme

[richard_smith237]

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

When you are around animals of any sort, including dogs, it is not their fault for acting normally. But, when you bring dogs into a human environment then it is ALWAYS the human's fault if there are problems. The dogs should either get spayed at birth or destroyed humanely. Those puppy farms should not even be allowed. The average Thai can not afford to look after themself let alone take care of a pet.

And no, I don't live in Issan, but I've traveled through many times. Most of it is just boring farmland that would drive me crazy if I had to live there.

.

You touched one point there... responsibility.

Killing them won´t solve the problem since the Thais will still take in puppies and let them go after they have grown up since they are not cute anymore. I can imagine you´re not a dog owner but if you are then you need to sharpen that logic sense of yours. In your initial post you describe them as vermin, looking at humanity we breed faster than rabbits and take no responsibility for it nor do we think of the repercussions of it. It won´t help killing the soi dogs off neither will chip marking them. The Thais need to be taught responsibility of what it means to take care of a living being. Nothing will be done until that happens.

I just hugged a tree, so I'll throw an opinion in here if the regulars don't mind:

It's not just how we treat dogs... oh, but how did this become an animal cruelty thread... OR... Has the topic developed to such a degree we are not into how we treat Foreigners here anymore?, and that without the concept of intelligent rationalization we are now discussing how dogs are treated as a comparison to us ?

If a dog bites me its its fault, if I a lion eats me its its fault and if a drunk person who doesn't like me stabs me its his fault....

The only question in my opinion is to what level am I also culpable.... We know the risks, we know the limits, we know we are each suppose to rise above the rubbish and take the moral high ground. With certified wild animals - thats ok, we understand, domesticated animals places a situation within the reals of questionability and with people of a certain basic level of education right and wrong is known.

(posted under the influence btw... maybe i missed a point or many - the crux is, no, no racism in Thailand, just status).

[maxme]

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

When you are around animals of any sort, including dogs, it is not their fault for acting normally. But, when you bring dogs into a human environment then it is ALWAYS the human's fault if there are problems. The dogs should either get spayed at birth or destroyed humanely. Those puppy farms should not even be allowed. The average Thai can not afford to look after themself let alone take care of a pet.

And no, I don't live in Issan, but I've traveled through many times. Most of it is just boring farmland that would drive me crazy if I had to live there.

.

You touched one point there... responsibility.

Killing them won´t solve the problem since the Thais will still take in puppies and let them go after they have grown up since they are not cute anymore. I can imagine you´re not a dog owner but if you are then you need to sharpen that logic sense of yours. In your initial post you describe them as vermin, looking at humanity we breed faster than rabbits and take no responsibility for it nor do we think of the repercussions of it. It won´t help killing the soi dogs off neither will chip marking them. The Thais need to be taught responsibility of what it means to take care of a living being. Nothing will be done until that happens.

I just hugged a tree, so I'll throw an opinion in here if the regulars don't mind:

It's not just how we treat dogs... oh, but how did this become an animal cruelty thread... OR... Has the topic developed to such a degree we are not into how we treat Foreigners here anymore?, and that without the concept of intelligent rationalization we are now discussing how dogs are treated as a comparison to us ?

If a dog bites me its its fault, if I a lion eats me its its fault and if a drunk person who doesn't like me stabs me its his fault....

The only question in my opinion is to what level am I also culpable.... We know the risks, we know the limits, we know we are each suppose to rise above the rubbish and take the moral high ground. With certified wild animals - thats ok, we understand, domesticated animals places a situation within the reals of questionability and with people of a certain basic level of education right and wrong is known.

(posted under the influence btw... maybe i missed a point or many - the crux is, no, no racism in Thailand, just status).

An advice, don´t write under influence... Of course there is racism, Thailand is not Utopia. How we treat animals shows how we treat our fellow man. If you can´t handle an animal with basic needs you surely can´t handle a human.

In Thailand it´s pretty clear the locals can´t do neither of these.

Nobody can blame you for hitting the dog in defense but that wasn´t the issue here.

I can see that some expats get influenced by their wives or their families to become Thai. I have adapted to the situation but I still have my principals. Clearly Ian didn´t have any other solution than to exterminate the dogs whos only fault was that they were abandoned instead of punishing and giving an example to what happens if people continue down the path . Lack of empathy and clarity into a situation give rash decision making and no solution to the long term problems.

[StreetCowboy]

Yeah it´s the dogs fault they are there. You don´t happen to live in Isaan do you?

When you are around animals of any sort, including dogs, it is not their fault for acting normally. But, when you bring dogs into a human environment then it is ALWAYS the human's fault if there are problems. The dogs should either get spayed at birth or destroyed humanely. Those puppy farms should not even be allowed. The average Thai can not afford to look after themself let alone take care of a pet.

And no, I don't live in Issan, but I've traveled through many times. Most of it is just boring farmland that would drive me crazy if I had to live there.

.

You touched one point there... responsibility.

Killing them won´t solve the problem since the Thais will still take in puppies and let them go after they have grown up since they are not cute anymore. I can imagine you´re not a dog owner but if you are then you need to sharpen that logic sense of yours. In your initial post you describe them as vermin, looking at humanity we breed faster than rabbits and take no responsibility for it nor do we think of the repercussions of it. It won´t help killing the soi dogs off neither will chip marking them. The Thais need to be taught responsibility of what it means to take care of a living being. Nothing will be done until that happens.

I just hugged a tree, so I'll throw an opinion in here if the regulars don't mind:

It's not just how we treat dogs... oh, but how did this become an animal cruelty thread... OR... Has the topic developed to such a degree we are not into how we treat Foreigners here anymore?, and that without the concept of intelligent rationalization we are now discussing how dogs are treated as a comparison to us ?

If a dog bites me its its fault, if I a lion eats me its its fault and if a drunk person who doesn't like me stabs me its his fault....

The only question in my opinion is to what level am I also culpable.... We know the risks, we know the limits, we know we are each suppose to rise above the rubbish and take the moral high ground. With certified wild animals - thats ok, we understand, domesticated animals places a situation within the reals of questionability and with people of a certain basic level of education right and wrong is known.

(posted under the influence btw... maybe i missed a point or many - the crux is, no, no racism in Thailand, just status).

They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.

SC

[mauGR1]

- the crux is, no, no racism in Thailand, just status).

Maybe you under the influence, but with your last line you nailed it

[Berkshire]

I too have little sympathy for white moaners, they benefit from regular racism so much more than any suffering from the reverse.

Good point....

[maxme]

- the crux is, no, no racism in Thailand, just status).

Maybe you under the influence, but with your last line you nailed it

And by that it means not just alcohol.

[IanForbes]

An advice, don´t write under influence... Of course there is racism, Thailand is not Utopia. How we treat animals shows how we treat our fellow man. If you can´t handle an animal with basic needs you surely can´t handle a human.

In Thailand it´s pretty clear the locals can´t do neither of these.

Nobody can blame you for hitting the dog in defense but that wasn´t the issue here.

I can see that some expats get influenced by their wives or their families to become Thai. I have adapted to the situation but I still have my principals. Clearly Ian didn´t have any other solution than to exterminate the dogs whos only fault was that they were abandoned instead of punishing and giving an example to what happens if people continue down the path . Lack of empathy and clarity into a situation give rash decision making and no solution to the long term problems.

Again, you are making some false assumptions, maxme.

I love all animals and most of all dogs. I was raised with dogs my entire life. But, as a dog owner we took responsibility of their actions. The dogs we owned were well cared for, spayed when necessary, taken to the vet to maintain their health and looked after until their death. They were shown lots of love, discipline and consistancy. With one exception once, what they weren't allowed to do was roam around the neighbourhood breeding to any female in heat. The female dogs were owned were spayed after their first "heat".

If venomous snakes were allowed to breed and hang around Thai neighbourhoods there would be a huge outcry and the serpents would suffer a quick fate. Excess dogs shouldn't be any different. In Canada we don't allow bears and cougars to wander around inhabited areas where they could harm humans, but we are far more likely to get attacked by Pittbull terriers bred to fight and kill. However, every time there is an attack and some child gets mauled by one of these beasts there's always an after the fact reaction.

I don't have a problem with euthanasia. If you let a problem get too big then eventually you have to do something about it. Is it likely to happen in Thailand? No.... just as nothing is likely to happen with all of the other problems that Thailand has.

[maxme]

An advice, don´t write under influence... Of course there is racism, Thailand is not Utopia. How we treat animals shows how we treat our fellow man. If you can´t handle an animal with basic needs you surely can´t handle a human.

In Thailand it´s pretty clear the locals can´t do neither of these.

Nobody can blame you for hitting the dog in defense but that wasn´t the issue here.

I can see that some expats get influenced by their wives or their families to become Thai. I have adapted to the situation but I still have my principals. Clearly Ian didn´t have any other solution than to exterminate the dogs whos only fault was that they were abandoned instead of punishing and giving an example to what happens if people continue down the path . Lack of empathy and clarity into a situation give rash decision making and no solution to the long term problems.

Again, you are making some false assumptions, maxme.

I love all animals and most of all dogs. I was raised with dogs my entire life. But, as a dog owner we took responsibility of their actions. The dogs we owned were well cared for, spayed when necessary, taken to the vet to maintain their health and looked after until their death. They were shown lots of love, discipline and consistancy. With one exception once, what they weren't allowed to do was roam around the neighbourhood breeding to any female in heat. The female dogs were owned were spayed after their first "heat".

If venomous snakes were allowed to breed and hang around Thai neighbourhoods there would be a huge outcry and the serpents would suffer a quick fate. Excess dogs shouldn't be any different. In Canada we don't allow bears and cougars to wander around inhabited areas where they could harm humans, but we are far more likely to get attacked by Pittbull terriers bred to fight and kill. However, every time there is an attack and some child gets mauled by one of these beasts there's always an after the fact reaction.

I don't have a problem with euthanasia. If you let a problem get too big then eventually you have to do something about it. Is it likely to happen in Thailand? No.... just as nothing is likely to happen with all of the other problems that Thailand has.

Again, you are comparing apples with rambutans. Cougars and bears are part of the wildlife, most of the soi dogs are mistreated animals that have been kicked out by the owners. Doing these things won´t solve the long term effects. Spaying is a solution but only if the Thais are taught the hard way what happens if they kick out the dogs. There should be severe penalties and consequences. Unfortunately this is Thailand where the law enforcers are either suffering from a severe case of apathy or in some cases even have become crooks. Even though I happen to know some Thais who spend 100 000 baht a month on street dogs there ain´t enough people to help and as long as the law look the other way this won´t be solved.

Have you ever tried to report mistreatment of animals or something similar to a Thai cop? They will laugh in your face, life is not worth much in LOS these days.

Bottom line is that there won´t be a change if the law doesn´t change and if the Thais don´t change. You will have the same problem popping up even after you have exterminated the entire breed of soi dogs.

Edited April 3, 2012 by maxme

[maxme]

Regarding the Pitbulls... So which works the best, killing off the dogs or sending people who train to them to be vicious behind bars?

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed as well as a reply.

[theblether]

(posted under the influence btw.

I like that line.......I wish someone would invent a breathalyser App so that we can't access our laptops when under the influence. It seems so right at the time and so wrong the next morning

[theblether]

As for the dog issue, I see many dogs which are suffering through neglect, starvation, disease, mange, and in some cases untreated wounds. The kindest course of action is to put them down.

If anyone is particularly interested in dog welfare there are Thai groups that go out and rescue and spay the animals, go help them or go fund them.

We need to understand that the live and let live attitude that the Thais have is ingrained through their teachings, I was privy to a situation last year where a constrictor took out two of my gf's chickens at the same time. She was screaming blue murder, her Uncle was ready to split the snake in two, and her mother stopped him saying it was nature's work.

As for me, I was hiding below the bed, I don't like snakes.

[GarryP]

As for the dog issue, I see many dogs which are suffering through neglect, starvation, disease, mange, and in some cases untreated wounds. The kindest course of action is to put them down.

If anyone is particularly interested in dog welfare there are Thai groups that go out and rescue and spay the animals, go help them or go fund them.

We need to understand that the live and let live attitude that the Thais have is ingrained through their teachings, I was privy to a situation last year where a constrictor took out two of my gf's chickens at the same time. She was screaming blue murder, her Uncle was ready to split the snake in two, and her mother stopped him saying it was nature's work.

As for me, I was hiding below the bed, I don't like snakes.

Actually that is quite unusual. Most Thais would have killed the snake, and if you are out in the sticks, cooked and eaten it too. Thais for the most part will not kill stray dogs, but they won't think twice about topping a snake.

Edited April 3, 2012 by GarryP