Racism Against Farangs

[farang000999]

how old are you ade?

[aneliane]

How do you know this when you don't speak Thai?

Because I do speak a bit Thai and it's easy enough to recognize few words like farangs/ the price I agreed to pay, also I talk quite fluently drunken sleaze ball language, it's international, that eyeing and face expression that some men have when they lust women, which I had confirmation when he arrived in my house he would not leave, he was like ..."so ..you like Thai men?" and he was holding his crouch, he was drunk so fortunately it was easy to stop the assault.

[edwardandtubs]

I dont get offended, but it does show a certain level of ignorance on the person using the term. Especially when used to generalise people from Australia to Finland to South Africa to Canada as being the same, having the same cultural identity, likes, dislikes, traditions, interests and sadly bank balance.

Yes, I agree, totally

So instead of looking on in scorn when referred to with that term instead look upon the poor chap with a sense of pity that he is not as educated and 'worldly' as you

I think it would not help, a more effective way, would be to just simply, tell them, No I am not farang, I am (insert your nationality here)

Good luck with that. Considering that most Thais have trouble placing their own country on a map, let alone having even heard of such made up places as 'Luxembourg' and 'Argentina' I doubt you will get far. If you want to go down that road the complete Thai education system needs a total overhaul, and thats a completely different yet equally pointless debate.

The King of Argentina is Messi, Liverpool is the capital of England and all the other falang are yellaman.

[edwardandtubs]

How do you know this when you don't speak Thai?

Because I do speak a bit Thai and it's easy enough to recognize few words like farangs/ the price I agreed to pay, also I talk quite fluently drunken sleaze ball language, it's international, that eyeing and face expression that some men have when they lust women, which I had confirmation when he arrived in my house he would not leave, he was like ..."so ..you like Thai men?" and he was holding his crouch, he was drunk so fortunately it was easy to stop the assault.

OK, so... you heard his comment that he was planning to make a pass at you, yet you invited this lustful, drunken sleaze ball into your home? Smart move, girl.

[Koratpat]

This yarn is getting more and more unbelievable.

How do you know this when you don't speak Thai?

Because I do speak a bit Thai and it's easy enough to recognize few words like farangs/ the price I agreed to pay, also I talk quite fluently drunken sleaze ball language, it's international, that eyeing and face expression that some men have when they lust women, which I had confirmation when he arrived in my house he would not leave, he was like ..."so ..you like Thai men?" and he was holding his crouch, he was drunk so fortunately it was easy to stop the assault.

[Berkshire]

How do you know this when you don't speak Thai?

Because I do speak a bit Thai and it's easy enough to recognize few words like farangs/ the price I agreed to pay, also I talk quite fluently drunken sleaze ball language, it's international, that eyeing and face expression that some men have when they lust women, which I had confirmation when he arrived in my house he would not leave, he was like ..."so ..you like Thai men?" and he was holding his crouch, he was drunk so fortunately it was easy to stop the assault.

OK, so... you heard his comment that he was planning to make a pass at you, yet you invited this lustful, drunken sleaze ball into your home? Smart move, girl.

I can't imagine letting a drunken sleaze ball drive me anywhere, let alone invite him into my home. But then, that's just me.

[samran]

How do you know this when you don't speak Thai?

Because I do speak a bit Thai and it's easy enough to recognize few words like farangs/ the price I agreed to pay, also I talk quite fluently drunken sleaze ball language, it's international, that eyeing and face expression that some men have when they lust women, which I had confirmation when he arrived in my house he would not leave, he was like ..."so ..you like Thai men?" and he was holding his crouch, he was drunk so fortunately it was easy to stop the assault.

OK, so... you heard his comment that he was planning to make a pass at you, yet you invited this lustful, drunken sleaze ball into your home? Smart move, girl.

I can't imagine letting a drunken sleaze ball drive me anywhere, let alone invite him into my home. But then, that's just me.

If the OP is indeed not a troll, then the saying 'not the sharpest tool in the shed' do come to mind....

[ayayay]

The first step is to refuse to be called, and referred to as a "farang".

The more we encourage them to call us "farang", the more distant and objectified we become.

We could at least try to encourage them to start to notice our different nationalities, it will be one step closer to make them realize we are people too.

LOL. Yet you have no issue calling all Thais 'them'.

Anyway, good luck with that.

( Say it loud, I'm Farang and I'm Proud. )

well, as you probably missed, I think it is a big difference between calling a person by their nationality, than by their skin, that would cover a more than a whole continent, it is a HUGE difference, if you cant see that, you are kinda, hmmm, not gonna say anything.

I did also point out, that it would be good if they could AT LEAST call us by our nationality, and I did say that in the post also. But you probably are too ignorant to understand.

[kerryk]

The first step is to refuse to be called, and referred to as a "farang".

The more we encourage them to call us "farang", the more distant and objectified we become.

We could at least try to encourage them to start to notice our different nationalities, it will be one step closer to make them realize we are people too.

Personally, I do not like the word "farang" at all.

Agree

I don't like it either when on a tuck tuck a driver speaks openly about me, how is going to make a pass at me (which he did afterwards) and how he's ripping me off blind, (told the price he charged me) to a motorcycle driver as if we could not understand anything or were not here.

I don't like it when motorcycle drivers just put their helmet before you talk to them to tell them where you want to go and make you repeat 15 times "sam sip jet" 37

Ok my accent is crap but the nicer one next to him has got it straight away and tells him in good thai "soi samsip jet";

Yet he still wants apparently to give me a a free Thai lesson on pronunciation, pretends not to understand, and makes me repeat over and over "Sâaaam Sip Djeeeet"

Obviously you arrived on a "let's have fun with the Farang " moment and if you are fed up with this crap / are late / tired/ hot & thirsty and just want to go home and ask the other nicer guy to get a ride, you become not only the horrible person dishonor Thai language, but also a motorcycle taxi organization vandal - they have a queue system-

So the first guy loses faces (he wish he could have humiliate the Farang much longer) and he gestures to overcharge me (two finger-20bahts instead of 15) which obviously is nothing, but it still feel like you can never get it right, and feel frustrated.

Ok I have not been burned, raped, or killed in an horrible manner, but it's never nice.

But as Dr Regine said it is probably only racial paranoia!

I got the answer for you. It is Karma for the Australian rejection of the Japanese racial equality clause to the League of Nations. Billy Huges the PM of Australia said, “ninety-five out of one hundred Australians rejected the very idea of equality."

To make a long story short Australia caused the League of Nations to reject the racial equality clause and this turned Japan away from the West and many historians believe the reason for Japan's nationalistic policies that led to WWII and Thailand's involvement in WWII and hence the racial problems you are experiencing today.

So, I would just grin and bare it, as not really your fault, except if your home country was one of the members of the League of Nations.

japan got rejected by the West / Australia so joined Germany (who is also in the West), Im not sure Im following ??

then what's the connection with Thailand ,??

Germany withdrew from the League, as did Japan. Japan involved Thailand into the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. They did this because Australia convinced the British not to include the Racial Equality Clause in the League of Nations and to treat Japan as second class members.

[Kananga]

The first step is to refuse to be called, and referred to as a "farang".

The more we encourage them to call us "farang", the more distant and objectified we become.

We could at least try to encourage them to start to notice our different nationalities, it will be one step closer to make them realize we are people too.

LOL. Yet you have no issue calling all Thais 'them'.

Anyway, good luck with that.

( Say it loud, I'm Farang and I'm Proud. )

well, as you probably missed, I think it is a big difference between calling a person by their nationality, than by their skin, that would cover a more than a whole continent, it is a HUGE difference, if you cant see that, you are kinda, hmmm, not gonna say anything.

I did also point out, that it would be good if they could AT LEAST call us by our nationality, and I did say that in the post also. But you probably are too ignorant to understand.

I believe what you are trying to say is that it is better to be labeled politically over being labelled biologically. Again, good luck with that. Things aren't going to change here any time soon. Just make sure that you and your loved ones are as safe as possible at all times and just let the other shit fly right by.

[edwardandtubs]

Now it's official! Australia caused the Second World War!

[rinteln]

This general subject was brought up in a different sort of style in another thread in regards to farangs paying more for things and some of the replies were amazing. Some people have apparently never been charged more for anything and actually think everyone is treated the same.....lol. I have to ask those people did you get here yesterday or do you live in a kind of resort....lol

The question here, which only starts to resolve the accusation of racism is....... are foreigners in this country treated differently because they are not residents or is it just because they foreigners in general or is it because they look different and have different reputations attached with them, ie money, wealth, intelligence etc etc.

If it is any of the first two then it wouldnt be racism as a foreigner by definition would be anything from a Cambodian through to a German through to a African. In other quite successful countries which I hope we all agree are the best benchmarks we have there are different rules for non residents and/or foreigners in general which I agree is acceptable as you are dealing with it from a residential point of view but the important difference is that the different treatment is because they are not residents. Im afraid to say that I think in general day to day practices in Thailand certain foreigners are not treated differently because of the those first two reasons but instead because of a stigma attached to certain people who look a certain way. ie. white western caucasian are associated with having more money, more possibilities.

There are many examples of this and probably none better than the middle class Bangkok typical university leaver who spends everyday doing what they can to be as white as possible. In fact you cant watch TV for more than 10 minutes without seeing a wave of adverts trying to sell products to make you look more white. Watch any half decent soap on Thai tv and they are all white, more healthy looking Thais which are rarely seen in normal day life. In fact when a dark skinned character comes along their role in the soap is normally a shop keeper, food vendor or something lower down. Now we all know why they want to be white and its not because its their favourite colour, its because they are then associated with success, money, intelligence. Its a way of telling everyone they are different. The only difference between how the lucky intelligent Thais deal with this and how the unlucky Isaan people deal with this is the Isaan use the difference as a justification to charge "farangs" more, assume more of them and assume its ok for them to pay more because they have more. The Bangkok type person will deal with this by saying well I want to become more like it.

In my opinion the best and most obvious example of common racism is actually the very word "farang". By proper definition it means foreigner but in reality it mostly means western person. ie white. They wont call a Chinese person a farang, they wont call a Japanese person a farang. Sometimes they call Indians farangs but I have heard many times just "India". The same is for Africans. They mostly think anyone black is from Africa, they wont distinguish after hearing the accent, its how they look that makes the mind up.

It is also about consistancy, which is what I really struggled to get over in another thread. If paying more for things, getting stopped more by police, getting ripped off on jet skis etc etc was really really just about being a foreigner and no racism at all, as others claim then why don't Cambodians have the same treatment, why dont Loas have the same, Chinese people, Malays, but they don't. Why, because they look similar and/or are not associated with wealth and intelligence. Now to me this is clear racism and anyone who says it isnt needs to read the definition of the word.

To answer the original, how do we deal with it. Personally I just accept that it is there and no one can speed up a country's development so just live with it. I have strong views on it but that doesnt mean I cant live with it. There are much worse things in the world.

Just my opinion.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln

[ayayay]

I dont get offended, but it does show a certain level of ignorance on the person using the term. Especially when used to generalise people from Australia to Finland to South Africa to Canada as being the same, having the same cultural identity, likes, dislikes, traditions, interests and sadly bank balance.

Yes, I agree, totally

So instead of looking on in scorn when referred to with that term instead look upon the poor chap with a sense of pity that he is not as educated and 'worldly' as you

I think it would not help, a more effective way, would be to just simply, tell them, No I am not farang, I am (insert your nationality here)

Good luck with that. Considering that most Thais have trouble placing their own country on a map, let alone having even heard of such made up places as 'Luxembourg' and 'Argentina' I doubt you will get far. If you want to go down that road the complete Thai education system needs a total overhaul, and thats a completely different yet equally pointless debate.

Nah, better to say or do something, than just go along, and even worse, begin to refer to yourself as a farang.

[ayayay]

The first step is to refuse to be called, and referred to as a "farang".

The more we encourage them to call us "farang", the more distant and objectified we become.

We could at least try to encourage them to start to notice our different nationalities, it will be one step closer to make them realize we are people too.

LOL. Yet you have no issue calling all Thais 'them'.

Anyway, good luck with that.

( Say it loud, I'm Farang and I'm Proud. )

well, as you probably missed, I think it is a big difference between calling a person by their nationality, than by their skin, that would cover a more than a whole continent, it is a HUGE difference, if you cant see that, you are kinda, hmmm, not gonna say anything.

I did also point out, that it would be good if they could AT LEAST call us by our nationality, and I did say that in the post also. But you probably are too ignorant to understand.

I believe what you are trying to say is that it is better to be labeled politically over being labelled biologically.

Although not entirely wrong, I would rather say, cultural and political, rather than surface/visually. And also because white skinned people are to be found in such a vast variety of cultural and geographical areas, that it is just plain wrong to be labeled in that way.

Of course we do not have to make a big deal out of it, but at least, we should not pro actively encourage them to label us a such, by referring to ourselves as farang.

[rinteln]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln

[MrJohnson]

Now it's official! Australia caused the Second World War!

Yes, a little known fact! All part of the ground-breaking nature of ThaiVisa.! Move over Wikipedia!

[Berkshire]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Boy, you guys never get it. Let me give you an example. In the US, there are essentially four major races: Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, and African-American. They each represent many different nationalities, but nevertheless, they are not considered offensive terms. People use them all the time in various context, even in the national media. So let's say you were to witness a carjacking. The police will ask you what ethnicity the guy was, among other things. Are you going to say he looked Dutch? Irish? German? No. You're going to say he was a white guy and describe his other features. No big deal.

The word "farang" is used in the same way. Absolutely nothing offensive about it.

[edwardandtubs]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Boy, you guys never get it. Let me give you an example. In the US, there are essentially four major races: Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, and African-American. They each represent many different nationalities, but nevertheless, they are not considered offensive terms. People use them all the time in various context, even in the national media. So let's say you were to witness a carjacking. The police will ask you what ethnicity the guy was, among other things. Are you going to say he looked Dutch? Irish? German? No. You're going to say he was a white guy and describe his other features. No big deal.

The word "farang" is used in the same way. Absolutely nothing offensive about it.

If a Hispanic walked into a shop and one shop assistant turned to another and said "a Hispanic has just walked in" that would certainly be deemed offensive. That's exactly how the word farang is commonly used in Thailand.

[ravip]

Well... Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let's assume the OP is a troll.

I wonder how we could refer to the faithful followers of the troll?

[rinteln]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Boy, you guys never get it. Let me give you an example. In the US, there are essentially four major races: Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, and African-American. They each represent many different nationalities, but nevertheless, they are not considered offensive terms. People use them all the time in various context, even in the national media. So let's say you were to witness a carjacking. The police will ask you what ethnicity the guy was, among other things. Are you going to say he looked Dutch? Irish? German? No. You're going to say he was a white guy and describe his other features. No big deal.

The word "farang" is used in the same way. Absolutely nothing offensive about it.

That is a very good point and I agree in theory but I don't think that is relevant to the case in Thailand. To reverse the example on you, if I was asked what did the guy look like who did the car jacking I wouldn't just come up with a word that meant to describe the person as someone "who doesn't look like me" or "everyone else who doesnt look ASEAN". That is the point here.

Plus your example is a little unfair because in that sort of case you would have no choice other than to say black, white, hispanic because you obviously wouldnt know the person. Plus you would say more than that, you would say long hair, tall, short etc. Ill give you a counter example. If you are sitting in a bar and a mexican walks past you wouldnt say "oh there goes an hispanic". You would identify him/her by more direct means or use your knowledge based on what they are wearing or sound like. Or strike up a chat. Thais will identify any caucasian (by instinct) that they don't know as a "farang", irrespective of anything else they may see or hear. That is the difference.

I agree with your point and is very good but i just don't think its relevant here that's all. In my view Thailand is quite unique on this due to its very enclosed past.

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist about the term "farang" whatsoever ? So how do you explain why they dont call a Chinese person a farang, if you are sure farang truly means foreigner ???? as you must do if you think it isnt racist.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln

[edwardandtubs]

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist about the term "farang" whatsoever ? So how do you explain why they dont call a Chinese person a farang, if you are sure farang truly means foreigner ????

What dictionary are you using? Farang means white person, not foreigner.

[Berkshire]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Boy, you guys never get it. Let me give you an example. In the US, there are essentially four major races: Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, and African-American. They each represent many different nationalities, but nevertheless, they are not considered offensive terms. People use them all the time in various context, even in the national media. So let's say you were to witness a carjacking. The police will ask you what ethnicity the guy was, among other things. Are you going to say he looked Dutch? Irish? German? No. You're going to say he was a white guy and describe his other features. No big deal.

The word "farang" is used in the same way. Absolutely nothing offensive about it.

That is a very good point and I agree in theory but I don't think that is relevant to the case in Thailand. To reverse the example on you, if I was asked what did the guy look like who did the car jacking I wouldn't just come up with a word that meant to describe the subject as "everyone else who doesn't look like me". That is the point here.

Plus your example is a little unfair as in that sort of case you would have no other way than to say black, white because you obviously wouldnt know the person. Ill give you a counter example. If you are sitting in a bar and a mexican walks past you wouldnt say "oh there goes an hispanic". You would identify him/her by more direct means or use your knowledge based on what they are wearing or sound like. Or strike up a chat. Thais will identify (by instinct) anyone they don't know as a "farang", irrespective of anything else they may see or hear. That is the difference.

I agree with your point and is very good but i just don't think its relevant here that's all.

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist abut the term "farang" whatsoever ?

While I respect your opinion and how you laid it out, I would have to disagree. If your point is that someone who knows you/your name and still refers to you as "that farang," I would agree. That's just bad manners. But that would be an isolated case and I don't see the typical Thai as being that obtuse. So to answer your last question, I would say that there is nothing racist about the term "farang" when used in normal conversation. Certainly no more racist than the terms "Asian," "Hispanic,"...you get my point. We may have to agree to disagree, and that's fine.

[Berkshire]

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist about the term "farang" whatsoever ? So how do you explain why they dont call a Chinese person a farang, if you are sure farang truly means foreigner ????

What dictionary are you using? Farang means white person, not foreigner.

Correct.

[rinteln]

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist about the term "farang" whatsoever ? So how do you explain why they dont call a Chinese person a farang, if you are sure farang truly means foreigner ????

What dictionary are you using? Farang means white person, not foreigner.

Well my point proven even more to any opposers. Thanks for the assist. For once its a pleasure to be corrected.

Although I don't think that's quite the case on the street in day to day usage. The word farang is also used for foreigner in general. After all the the word farang comes from farangi, which originally meant foreigner. It has sort of developed into farang meaning mainly caucasian looking after the Vietnam war.

Either way earlier points still stand.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln

[rinteln]

I couldn't agree more with many of these comments and at last I seem to be in some friendly territory.

As I said in my earlier post, the very word "farang" is the first and probably best example of the racism. The problem though is that when you first come here on holiday your western style tolerance and naivity doesn't make you catch on. In fact you look at it in some sort of funny or innocent way. So you spend your first few visits thinking its a perfectly harmless term, almost cute. By the time you realise that there is a stigma attached to it the damage is already done and you are even calling yourself a Farang or at least accepting it as your identity. So in fact its almost going back to the dark ages when white people were simply white, black simply black no matter where they came from. This is racism. Identification, stigma, assumption of wealth and treating of those people differently by ethnic appearance is racism.

I think getting rid of this can only be a natural progression and little we can do about it so just need to live with it and as you say its not a massive deal but certainly an interesting topic.

Boy, you guys never get it. Let me give you an example. In the US, there are essentially four major races: Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, and African-American. They each represent many different nationalities, but nevertheless, they are not considered offensive terms. People use them all the time in various context, even in the national media. So let's say you were to witness a carjacking. The police will ask you what ethnicity the guy was, among other things. Are you going to say he looked Dutch? Irish? German? No. You're going to say he was a white guy and describe his other features. No big deal.

The word "farang" is used in the same way. Absolutely nothing offensive about it.

That is a very good point and I agree in theory but I don't think that is relevant to the case in Thailand. To reverse the example on you, if I was asked what did the guy look like who did the car jacking I wouldn't just come up with a word that meant to describe the subject as "everyone else who doesn't look like me". That is the point here.

Plus your example is a little unfair as in that sort of case you would have no other way than to say black, white because you obviously wouldnt know the person. Ill give you a counter example. If you are sitting in a bar and a mexican walks past you wouldnt say "oh there goes an hispanic". You would identify him/her by more direct means or use your knowledge based on what they are wearing or sound like. Or strike up a chat. Thais will identify (by instinct) anyone they don't know as a "farang", irrespective of anything else they may see or hear. That is the difference.

I agree with your point and is very good but i just don't think its relevant here that's all.

Im afraid you last point I couldn't disagree more. You are honestly saying there is nothing racist abut the term "farang" whatsoever ?

While I respect your opinion and how you laid it out, I would have to disagree. If your point is that someone who knows you/your name and still refers to you as "that farang," I would agree. That's just bad manners. But that would be an isolated case and I don't see the typical Thai as being that obtuse. So to answer your last question, I would say that there is nothing racist about the term "farang" when used in normal conversation. Certainly no more racist than the terms "Asian," "Hispanic,"...you get my point. We may have to agree to disagree, and that's fine.

Fair enough and I suppose how an individual uses it is very important as well. I think how much the term is used and what knowledge the individual has already got about the other person is probably too greyer an area and impossible to argue either way.

Yeah I think agree to disagree is the best solution. Friendly debate always healthy though.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln

[geriatrickid]

I resent the assumption that I have a big penis. I find it racist when the Thais think I am well endowed just because I am farang.

Do you you know how embarrassing it is when the woman says, oh you are not big like the farangs on the internet.......

This is why I want to stop racisim against farangs now.

[ayayay]

I dont get offended, but it does show a certain level of ignorance on the person using the term. Especially when used to generalise people from Australia to Finland to South Africa to Canada as being the same, having the same cultural identity, likes, dislikes, traditions, interests and sadly bank balance.

Yes, I agree, totally

So instead of looking on in scorn when referred to with that term instead look upon the poor chap with a sense of pity that he is not as educated and 'worldly' as you

I think it would not help, a more effective way, would be to just simply, tell them, No I am not farang, I am (insert your nationality here)

I think your one man crusade against the word farang, while admirable, is doomed to failure because most white people don't give a dam_n.

No, it is not a big deal, only thing I do is really one thing, I don´t use the word myself, and sometimes, if I hear it a lot, I do point out, that, "no he is not farang, he is american" etc.

Does not require a lot of effort at all.

And yes, I do think it will help, by separating us from each other, it forces thais to realize we are not just a "bunch" of farangs, but actually people, with different nationalities, cultures etc...

In the long run, it will prevent racism.

Edited April 5, 2012 by ayayay

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Well my point proven even more to any opposers. Thanks for the assist. For once its a pleasure to be corrected.

Although I don't think that's quite the case on the street in day to day usage. The word farang is also used for foreigner in general. After all the the word farang comes from farangi, which originally meant foreigner. It has sort of developed into farang meaning mainly caucasian looking after the Vietnam war.

Either way earlier points still stand.

No, you are misinformed. There is not definitive knowledge about the word's derivation, only informed speculation. The word "ferengi" you cite does mean foreigner in its Persian-Indian context, and that is quite possibly where the Thais got it. However there is evidence that the Franks had direct contact with Thailand when they had their extensive empire and international trading networks, and therefore may have inspired the Thai word directly. In any case here in Thailand "farang" specifically means "white person", what we call "Caucasian" in English. And this has been true for hundreds of years, nothing to do with the Vietnam era.

And it is cold hard fact that the word farang has no negative connotation in and of itself linguistically.

You will sometimes hear "farang dam" to differentiate a black American or European as opposed to "kon africahn", but that's rare, since 99% of Thais couldn't care less, they don't like dark-skinned people generally. I've only heard Thai working girls use it to defend their choice of customer, in the sense of "but he's an American (or French or British) black, not an African black". So yes they are racist regarding skin color, and their poorer neighbors, lazy Laos, thieving Burmese, dangerous Khmer, smelly Arabs etc. But these are racist attitudes that may be conveyed by tone of voice, not inherently disparaging like "Paki" or the n-word in English cultures.

You will also hear "passat farang" often to mean English, but again they usually don't care about the to them irrelevant distinction that there are multiple different farang countries and languages, it's just easier for them to lump us in all together.

Now people that have a lot of experience with the sort of farang who have been coming here since the Vietnam era may start to use it in a negative way, just as in LA you might hear "typical Thai whore", but that doesn't mean the word in itself has a negative meaning outside of that context.

Note that Thais also have the linguistic habit of referring to each other by nicknames based on station or function or family relation rather than by proper names.

This isn't in itself rude, but once Thais find out that most farang don't like to be referred to as "the farang" in their presence, they will learn to start calling you in the way that you prefer. And of course Thais like everyone else like to generalize, and so a frequent topic of conversation between strangers and your companions is likely to be "farang are like this" and "farang are like that", not necessarily talking about you specifically but generalizing, and in fact there isn't any way to tell which from the language itself unless they use qualifiers - **this** farang vs **most** farang or **other** farang.

The fact that most farangs encountered by large subsets of the Thai population are alcoholic whoremongers probably hasn't helped the situation, but the fact remains that these are simply linguistic/cultural structures, habits, and not meant to be derogatory.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I resent the assumption that I have a big penis. I find it racist when the Thais think I am well endowed just because I am farang.

Do you you know how embarrassing it is when the woman says, oh you are not big like the farangs on the internet.......

This is why I want to stop racisim against farangs now.

Yes, I'd started to learn enough Thai by the time I went upcountry to negotiate for my fiance's sin sot, and was amazed to discover that all the female elders in the circle at the ceremony were asking my blushing bride for specific details about the size of my dick and what my kinky sexual preferences were.

When they found out I understood what they were bantering about there was uncontrollable hilarity for a good twenty minutes, and I honestly think that episode resulted in my getting a quite deep discount just for the entertainment value I provided - but then I'm a pretty hard-nosed negotiator anyway. . .

[rinteln]

Well my point proven even more to any opposers. Thanks for the assist. For once its a pleasure to be corrected.

Although I don't think that's quite the case on the street in day to day usage. The word farang is also used for foreigner in general. After all the the word farang comes from farangi, which originally meant foreigner. It has sort of developed into farang meaning mainly caucasian looking after the Vietnam war.

Either way earlier points still stand.

No, you are misinformed. There is not definitive knowledge about the word's derivation, only informed speculation. The word "ferengi" you cite does mean foreigner in its Persian-Indian context, and that is quite possibly where the Thais got it. However there is evidence that the Franks had direct contact with Thailand when they had their extensive empire and international trading networks, and therefore may have inspired the Thai word directly. In any case here in Thailand "farang" specifically means "white person", what we call "Caucasian" in English. And this has been true for hundreds of years, nothing to do with the Vietnam era.

And it is cold hard fact that the word farang has no negative connotation in and of itself linguistically.

You will sometimes hear "farang dam" to differentiate a black American or European as opposed to "kon africahn", but that's rare, since 99% of Thais couldn't care less, they don't like dark-skinned people generally. I've only heard Thai working girls use it to defend their choice of customer, in the sense of "but he's an American (or French or British) black, not an African black". So yes they are racist regarding skin color, and their poorer neighbors, lazy Laos, thieving Burmese, dangerous Khmer, smelly Arabs etc. But these are racist attitudes that may be conveyed by tone of voice, not inherently disparaging like "Paki" or the n-word in English cultures.

You will also hear "passat farang" often to mean English, but again they usually don't care about the to them irrelevant distinction that there are multiple different farang countries and languages, it's just easier for them to lump us in all together.

Now people that have a lot of experience with the sort of farang who have been coming here since the Vietnam era may start to use it in a negative way, just as in LA you might hear "typical Thai whore", but that doesn't mean the word in itself has a negative meaning outside of that context.

Note that Thais also have the linguistic habit of referring to each other by nicknames based on station or function or family relation rather than by proper names.

This isn't in itself rude, but once Thais find out that most farang don't like to be referred to as "the farang" in their presence, they will learn to start calling you in the way that you prefer. And of course Thais like everyone else like to generalize, and so a frequent topic of conversation between strangers and your companions is likely to be "farang are like this" and "farang are like that", not necessarily talking about you specifically but generalizing, and in fact there isn't any way to tell which from the language itself unless they use qualifiers - **this** farang vs **most** farang or **other** farang.

The fact that most farangs encountered by large subsets of the Thai population are alcoholic whoremongers probably hasn't helped the situation, but the fact remains that these are simply linguistic/cultural structures, habits, and not meant to be derogatory.

Excellent post. I cant say much to that or challenge it in the context of the word farang or how it arrived. You are clearly well informed on that.

I would however doubt that an average Thai in their day to day lives will be following that same logic which surely has to be what we discuss here. Ofcourse when a Thai knows you then they wont call you Farang, but that's no credit to them or their instinct. That's simply because they have another option on what to call you. I doubt the thought process says to them Oh I better call him John now because farang is offensive. The point here is their instinct and the way they ignorantly bunch people into massive groups because they are either too lazy or not intelligent enough to learn. I wouldn't generalise anyone who doesn't look similar to me as one word and then say well I didn't know him well enough so that's ok.

The fact is that by instinct they regard any person of white caucasian appearance as a farang in one general sweep. Black people are known, by instinct as Africans, any middle eastern looking person is simply "Alab". Don't forget in all this that most Thais wouldn't even know where Singapore is, who HItler is, even Hirohito, where Hong Kong is. They are forced to bunch things up as there is no education on the outside world.

The more important fact and what this whole topic is really about is whether farangs are treated differently as a result of this because they are associated with more wealth, intelligence etc. ie racism. The answer to that surely is yes. If, and I say if farangs being treated different was purely down to the foreign status then it would be the same for Cambodians, Loas people, Chinese, but it isn't.

Your last sentence does worry me a bit. Its almost as if you are saying because they are used to it and its second nature that its ok. So if its through ignorance then that's alright. Well i'm glad our own countries didnt take that view on racism back in the day when we were ignorant of it.

Being ignorant about racism isn't as bad as intended racism of course but to suggest it lets one off the hook is worrying.

As I say I think I admit I stand corrected on my definition and use of the "farang" and you are right but not sure the practice quite works out that way.

Edited April 5, 2012 by rinteln