Converting To Thai Citizenship

[TommoPhysicist]

Thai wages are irrelevant. We're not Thai (or you're not, anyway).

Did you expect to be welcomed as an immigrant making 200 baht a day?

I get 10k a month, live on the wifes farm with our three children, and am about the 7th biggest earner in the village (population approx 900) + crops which we mostly trade. In most normal countries I would be entitled to citizenship, purely on our land assets and children.

(5 teachers and the headmaster in the village school get 12-25k)

Edited March 31, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[NewlyMintedThai]

Thai wages are irrelevant. We're not Thai (or you're not, anyway).

Did you expect to be welcomed as an immigrant making 200 baht a day?

I get 10k a month, live on the wifes farm with our three children, and am about the 7th biggest earner in the village (population approx 900) + crops which we mostly trade.

(5 teachers and the headmaster in the village school get 12-25k)

Your point being? That the bar is set too high because you personally don't qualify?

[TommoPhysicist]

Thai wages are irrelevant. We're not Thai (or you're not, anyway).

Did you expect to be welcomed as an immigrant making 200 baht a day?

I get 10k a month, live on the wifes farm with our three children, and am about the 7th biggest earner in the village (population approx 900) + crops which we mostly trade.

(5 teachers and the headmaster in the village school get 12-25k)

Your point being? That the bar is set too high because you personally don't qualify?

Traditionally, immigrants are the poorer workers in a country. Being poor has never previously stopped citizenship in the west.

If in the UK, a husband/wife owning a 75 rai farm outright would be considered plenty of money for citizenship.

She would also be allowed to work on the farm, something that here I theoretically cannot do.

New rules for the new world order, I suppose.

Edited March 31, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[NewlyMintedThai]

In most normal countries I would be entitled to citizenship, purely on our land assets and children.

Name one country, anywhere on this continent, where the fact that you have kids with a national and your wife owns some farmland "entitles" you to citizenship.

[TommoPhysicist]

In most normal countries I would be entitled to citizenship, purely on our land assets and children.

Name one country, anywhere on this continent, where the fact that you have kids with a national and your wife owns some farmland "entitles" you to citizenship.

I did say most normal countries, my mistake, maybe I should have been specific and said in most CIVILIZED countries.

(which would have included, Canada, USA, UK, France, Holland, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Brazil, Chile, Ecuador, etc.)

Edited March 31, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Geekfreaklover]

Just curious. How much is the application fee?

[lopburi3]

Enough. One flame removed. If you can not discuss without personal attacks please cease. If anyone is interested in the subject below is a good read.

[NewlyMintedThai]

In most normal countries I would be entitled to citizenship, purely on our land assets and children.

Name one country, anywhere on this continent, where the fact that you have kids with a national and your wife owns some farmland "entitles" you to citizenship.

I did say most normal countries, my mistake, maybe I should have been specific and said in most CIVILIZED countries.

(which would have included, Canada, USA, UK, France, Holland, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Brazil, Chile, Ecuador, etc.)

Aha. No "civilized" countries in Asia?

And I think your understanding of "entitlement" is skewed. No one is "entitled" to citizenship simply by marrying a national in any of those countries you mention. In America just for example, they have to jump years and years of hurdles, endure dehumanizing investigations, and pass tests that few native Americans could pass.

You make it sound like one day you say "I do" and the next you're handed a passport on a silver platter.

No one is "entitled" to anything anywhere, just because they marry a local.

[thaigold]

Any dude who makes $4000 US in Thailand is ten-cards short of a full deck. Because, if some dunce can command 4K in Thailand (with the proper qualifications) can make triple that in his home nation. Reading this testosterone riven post, I've had to put on my hip-boots.

[brit1984]

Any dude who makes $4000 US in Thailand is ten-cards short of a full deck. Because, if some dunce can command 4K in Thailand (with the proper qualifications) can make triple that in his home nation. Reading this testosterone riven post, I've had to put on my hip-boots.

I am not sure I fully understand your post but I think you are saying anyone who does not live in the country where they can earn the highest salary is crazy... which is a crazy thing to say due to the concept of purchasing power parity (never mind that some people might care more about other things that money)... and I think you are saying that all ex-pats working in Thailand could earn triple their salary if they returned to their home country... which is simply not true... but maybe I just mis-understood your post

[samran]

A few observations.

- It has struck me as quite amusing that those who have gone 'native' live the stereotypical Thai existence (earn sweet FA and live in a hut out Ban Nork way)are the ones that don't make the cut, whereas those who wish to emulate a relative level of earnings and lifestyle of their home countries are welcome to apply. For those who love to complain about the Thai system discriminating against them for being 'foreign', it is quite illuminating and a little ironic that the citizenship process awards you for being, erm, foreign in your outlook and goals. They obviously don't want people who set the threshold low.

- While I broadly agree that there should be some predictable path for those with families to get long term residency (which I don't think quite exists yet) and perhaps a little bit less weighting on income, I also don't think the 40k/month Thai income threshold for those married to Thai's is an unreasonable expectation. These days, a salary of 40 to 60k is hardly unrealistic for middle management in BKK, so I don't know why people are setting the bar so low for themselves.

[Arkady]

The physicist is correct in his assertion that males who are not working in Thailand are ineligible to apply for Thai citizenship, even if they are married to Thai women and have massive incomes from outside the country. The 1965 Nationality Act clearly states that candidates for naturalization must have a profession in Thailand. So this is not a new requirement designed to discriminate against the large communities of foreigners who came to Thailand to retire after spending their careers working somewhere else.

There is no longer any legal requirement to speak and understand Thai for those married to Thais, since that required was waived in the 2008 amendments to the Act, and there has never been a requirement to read and write and Thai. Nevertheless, since it is Thai citizenship we are talking about here, all the interviews are conducted in Thai and the assessors are likely to conclude not unreasonably that some one who cannot communicate effectively in Thai is unlikely to blend well into Thai society and reject the application.

Whilst earning a large salary seems to be viewed favorably as evidence of ability to support oneself and dependents and paying a lot of Thai tax is viewed as making a significant financial contribution to Thai society rather than looking to gain benefits from universal healthcare etc, money is certainly not the be all and end all. The assessors look at the applicant as a total package ("paap ruam" - big picture - is how it was described to me) based on attitude, outlook and ability to become assimilated into Thai society as well as contributions made to it, financial or otherwise.

It is noteworthy that some lecturers at government universities on modest salaries have been granted Thai citizenship, while some extremely wealthy individuals with poor Thai who thought their money could buy anything have been officially rejected (not just left waiting for years without any news.)

It is regrettable that the process lacks transparency and is extremely slow but it is not totally discriminatory. Whether foreign retirees who have never worked in Thailand and settle in the country late in life should be made eligible is debatable. Since their ability to assimilate into Thai society is limited by the their age and the fact that they can't interact with Thais through the workforce, I personally don't think so. The law is nearly 50 years old and it will be take many more years before this relatively new foreign community comes onto its radar screen. Personally I think it would be much more suitable to allow foreign retirees a special scheme for permanent residence or 10 year renewable visas for those that can demonstrate the financial resources to stay long-term and pay for their own healthcare etc, without having to know Thai or prove ability to assimilate into Thai society which is unrealistic for over 60s. However, when this does come, it will probably be accompanied by a significant tightening of the conditions for one year retirement visas and marriage visas.

[Naam]

I'm not cagey at all.

I had PR for over five years on application. Speak, read, and write Thai fluently. Owned a condo. Had salary of maximum 150K in previous years. Do you consider that "huge"? I sure don't.

So, do you know anyone who has applied and failed to get it? Where do your beliefs about "impossibility" come from? Everyone I know who has applied has gotten it (including those I met during the process).

if you are not "cagey" then tell us how many years did it take to obtain permanent residency and how many years did it take from application to be awarded Thai citizenship.

waiting patiently for your answer...

[samran]

I'm not cagey at all.

I had PR for over five years on application. Speak, read, and write Thai fluently. Owned a condo. Had salary of maximum 150K in previous years. Do you consider that "huge"? I sure don't.

So, do you know anyone who has applied and failed to get it? Where do your beliefs about "impossibility" come from? Everyone I know who has applied has gotten it (including those I met during the process).

if you are not "cagey" then tell us how many years did it take to obtain permanent residency and how many years did it take from application to be awarded Thai citizenship.

waiting patiently for your answer...

pretty sure he's said in the past that it was 3 years. Same with another person I know who just got it.

[Time Traveller]

A few observations.

- It has struck me as quite amusing that those who have gone 'native' live the stereotypical Thai existence (earn sweet FA and live in a hut out Ban Nork way)are the ones that don't make the cut, whereas those who wish to emulate a relative level of earnings and lifestyle of their home countries are welcome to apply. For those who love to complain about the Thai system discriminating against them for being 'foreign', it is quite illuminating and a little ironic that the citizenship process awards you for being, erm, foreign in your outlook and goals. They obviously don't want people who set the threshold low.

That's because the Thai elites despise the poor working class Thai's and believe the western life is superior. Encouraging immigration of more peasants is not really in the interest of those in power.

[KCPhuket]

The physicist is correct in his assertion that males who are not working in Thailand are ineligible to apply for Thai citizenship, even if they are married to Thai women and have massive incomes from outside the country. The 1965 Nationality Act clearly states that candidates for naturalization must have a profession in Thailand. So this is not a new requirement designed to discriminate against the large communities of foreigners who came to Thailand to retire after spending their careers working somewhere else.

There is no longer any legal requirement to speak and understand Thai for those married to Thais, since that required was waived in the 2008 amendments to the Act, and there has never been a requirement to read and write and Thai. Nevertheless, since it is Thai citizenship we are talking about here, all the interviews are conducted in Thai and the assessors are likely to conclude not unreasonably that some one who cannot communicate effectively in Thai is unlikely to blend well into Thai society and reject the application.

Whilst earning a large salary seems to be viewed favorably as evidence of ability to support oneself and dependents and paying a lot of Thai tax is viewed as making a significant financial contribution to Thai society rather than looking to gain benefits from universal healthcare etc, money is certainly not the be all and end all. The assessors look at the applicant as a total package ("paap ruam" - big picture - is how it was described to me) based on attitude, outlook and ability to become assimilated into Thai society as well as contributions made to it, financial or otherwise.

It is noteworthy that some lecturers at government universities on modest salaries have been granted Thai citizenship, while some extremely wealthy individuals with poor Thai who thought their money could buy anything have been officially rejected (not just left waiting for years without any news.)

It is regrettable that the process lacks transparency and is extremely slow but it is not totally discriminatory. Whether foreign retirees who have never worked in Thailand and settle in the country late in life should be made eligible is debatable. Since their ability to assimilate into Thai society is limited by the their age and the fact that they can't interact with Thais through the workforce, I personally don't think so. The law is nearly 50 years old and it will be take many more years before this relatively new foreign community comes onto its radar screen. Personally I think it would be much more suitable to allow foreign retirees a special scheme for permanent residence or 10 year renewable visas for those that can demonstrate the financial resources to stay long-term and pay for their own healthcare etc, without having to know Thai or prove ability to assimilate into Thai society which is unrealistic for over 60s. However, when this does come, it will probably be accompanied by a significant tightening of the conditions for one year retirement visas and marriage visas.

Well, the news about retirees not working in Thailand being ineligible for citizenship is sad to hear! I have lived in Thailand nearly five years and have been considering applying for citizenship. My wife is Thai/USA dual, as is my daughter who was born in the USA when we all lived there. My wife received her USA citizenship after 3 years of residency because she was married to me (it is five years for a single person).

As a retiree, I am happy to live in my adopted country. I pay taxes every day (VAT) and contribute to the support of my wife's family. I live on Phuket but in a small village where my neighbors are Thai. I am disappointed to learn that I cannot even apply successfully for Thai citizenship! I do live the life of a good Thai citizen contributing to society.

[samran]

A few observations.

- It has struck me as quite amusing that those who have gone 'native' live the stereotypical Thai existence (earn sweet FA and live in a hut out Ban Nork way)are the ones that don't make the cut, whereas those who wish to emulate a relative level of earnings and lifestyle of their home countries are welcome to apply. For those who love to complain about the Thai system discriminating against them for being 'foreign', it is quite illuminating and a little ironic that the citizenship process awards you for being, erm, foreign in your outlook and goals. They obviously don't want people who set the threshold low.

That's because the Thai elites despise the poor working class Thai's and believe the western life is superior. Encouraging immigration of more peasants is not really in the interest of those in power.

So why has the government insituted the Migrant Worker Labour scheme giving them ID cards, 2 year extendable visas and access to social services?

[Naam]

I'm not cagey at all.

I had PR for over five years on application. Speak, read, and write Thai fluently. Owned a condo. Had salary of maximum 150K in previous years. Do you consider that "huge"? I sure don't.

So, do you know anyone who has applied and failed to get it? Where do your beliefs about "impossibility" come from? Everyone I know who has applied has gotten it (including those I met during the process).

if you are not "cagey" then tell us how many years did it take to obtain permanent residency and how many years did it take from application to be awarded Thai citizenship.

waiting patiently for your answer...

pretty sure he's said in the past that it was 3 years. Same with another person I know who just got it.

i would like to know the total number of years counted from entering Thailand, obtaining permanent residency and then citizenship.

[PattayaPhom]

In most normal countries I would be entitled to citizenship, purely on our land assets and children.

Name one country, anywhere on this continent, where the fact that you have kids with a national and your wife owns some farmland "entitles" you to citizenship.

I do beleive Cambodia grants citezenship to a foreigner married after 5 years.....

[jamescollister]

I'm just glad they let me stay, wife 2 kids, happy to do my border run every 3 months. If we in the west had put in to laws, Thai standards we may have had countries we did not want to leave. Jim

[Time Traveller]

A few observations.

- It has struck me as quite amusing that those who have gone 'native' live the stereotypical Thai existence (earn sweet FA and live in a hut out Ban Nork way)are the ones that don't make the cut, whereas those who wish to emulate a relative level of earnings and lifestyle of their home countries are welcome to apply. For those who love to complain about the Thai system discriminating against them for being 'foreign', it is quite illuminating and a little ironic that the citizenship process awards you for being, erm, foreign in your outlook and goals. They obviously don't want people who set the threshold low.

That's because the Thai elites despise the poor working class Thai's and believe the western life is superior. Encouraging immigration of more peasants is not really in the interest of those in power.

So why has the government insituted the Migrant Worker Labour scheme giving them ID cards, 2 year extendable visas and access to social services?

Thai factory owners need workers and not because Thai officials feel generous to give equal rights to Burmese or Cambodians. Guest workers are not quite the same as immigrants. The host country can kick them out anytime.

[NewlyMintedThai]

I'm not cagey at all.

I had PR for over five years on application. Speak, read, and write Thai fluently. Owned a condo. Had salary of maximum 150K in previous years. Do you consider that "huge"? I sure don't.

So, do you know anyone who has applied and failed to get it? Where do your beliefs about "impossibility" come from? Everyone I know who has applied has gotten it (including those I met during the process).

if you are not "cagey" then tell us how many years did it take to obtain permanent residency and how many years did it take from application to be awarded Thai citizenship.

waiting patiently for your answer...

pretty sure he's said in the past that it was 3 years. Same with another person I know who just got it.

i would like to know the total number of years counted from entering Thailand, obtaining permanent residency and then citizenship.

13 years.

Three years working with work permit

Two years waiting for PR approval

Five years as PR

Three years waiting for citizenship approval

Your results may vary!

Edited May 28, 2012 by NewlyMintedThai

[Thanet]

I have always been curious why any farang would want to become a Thai Citizen if someone who has done this or the OP who wants to can please tell me?

Insecurity,can't be sent back home(and have probably a serious enough rap,waiting for them back home) If you have citizenship.

Citizenship of the country where you are living in is highly convenient, and insecurity is only one of many possible reasons why one would want to be a citizen of Thailand.

[Thanet]

13 years.

Three years working with work permit

Two years waiting for PR approval

Five years as PR

Three years waiting for citizenship approval

Your results may vary!

Altogether, mine took 16 years:

Three years on visa runs

Three years on non-imm visas

Ten years as a PR (including the three year wait for Citizenship)

They definitely want you to prove your commitment to Thailand, but there's certainly noting 'cagey' - if you qualify for it, it's well worth having

[Naam]

I'm not cagey at all.

I had PR for over five years on application. Speak, read, and write Thai fluently. Owned a condo. Had salary of maximum 150K in previous years. Do you consider that "huge"? I sure don't.

So, do you know anyone who has applied and failed to get it? Where do your beliefs about "impossibility" come from? Everyone I know who has applied has gotten it (including those I met during the process).

if you are not "cagey" then tell us how many years did it take to obtain permanent residency and how many years did it take from application to be awarded Thai citizenship.

waiting patiently for your answer...

pretty sure he's said in the past that it was 3 years. Same with another person I know who just got it.

i would like to know the total number of years counted from entering Thailand, obtaining permanent residency and then citizenship.

still waiting for an answer...

[ubonjoe]

PR requires three years on consecutive 1 year extensions of stay. Citizenship requires 5 years (3 if married to a Thai) total on extensions and/or PR. PR is not required if married to a Thai.

[NewlyMintedThai]

still waiting for an answer...

I answered already: 13 years.

[samran]

still waiting for an answer...

You are getting old mate...post 52...

[lopburi3]

That is old? Relative to birth date perhaps. Not to some of us.

[samran]

That is old? Relative to birth date perhaps. Not to some of us.

Lop, and this is true...I've alway imagined you will end up being a rather sprightly 80 something, running full marathons and leaving us youngsters in your dust. Crew cut and all.