Immigration Decended On My Office

[oops]

Today three immigration officers came to my office. They first asked me for my work permit. I showed them a copy; they said it wasn't good enough. It also didn't show the address for the office location only my home.

I explained that they wouldn't allow us to set our company up at the office location that we had to set it up at our home and then pay for additional locations which we did. My wife had to bring the actual work permit to the office which wasn't the real problem. The problem came from them acting overly aggressive for no reason and trying to embarrass me in front of my staff as well as all the Thai offices and businesses that surround my office and you can bet everyone was watching. They kept suggesting that they were going to take me somewhere else which I was reluctant to go. They wouldn't show me any badges or ID cards. They either played the game really good or they were immigration. After the initial confrontation, one guy was asked to go outside as if to be on the lookout for something...not sure what. Prior to my wife getting there they started asking how much we make , how we are paid, and many other questions that didn't pertain to my work permit.

It was an obvious shake down. We have only been licensed for about 6 months, although the company was started three years ago before we were making any real money. In fact, I wanted to get a license a long time ago but everyone kept telling me no your not making over a million baht a year. We are just now barely on target to make that, we have a book keeper that takes care of the books

so, that should also be in order.

My problem is what to do if this happens again?, and are they allowed to ask me about how much we make and how we make?.

Also, it would seem to me that they could just made a call and check to see if I have a work permit of if the company has a work permit.... but they knew nothing and you could see they were looking for anything that would allow them to take me in handcuffs away from the office. I did ask them for a card but they wouldn't give me one. We have plate glass windows in front of our office and our big sign out front. It's obvious that we are legal, or it would appear that we are. My point is, with the lose face issue you would think they would research it better, especially when it comes to a shop owner that is exposed to so many other businesses glaring at you. It really makes you look bad. You lose work while they are their trying to figure out what they don't know because they lack the ability to do their research prior to busting down doors., Then to make matters worse they leave you hopeless for the rest of the day trying to figure out what kind of vigilante system is this...that's actually a rhetorical question.

[TommoPhysicist]

Install security video cameras in your offices, record 24/7.

Make sure the recorder isn't easy to find, or record over Internet if you have a connection.

Webcam pointing at the door and the right software would do the trick.

Edited April 4, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[bartender100]

Don't you have a lawyer on stand by?, sounds like they might have been fake if they refused to show ID's. CCTV is a good idea as mentioned, point it out to them if they come back, not expensive these days , you can buy a good system in Pantip

[sbk]

Not really a travel question, moving to Visas and work permits forum

[OccamsRazor]

Their refusal to show ID is a red flag to me. CCTV is a good idea and point it out to them when they start questioning you. You should have a lawyer's number and inform them you are contacting him now and they can discuss it with him.

[mamypoko]

Install security video cameras in your offices, record 24/7.

Make sure the recorder isn't easy to find, or record over Internet if you have a connection.

Webcam pointing at the door and the right software would do the trick.

...and as they enter, point and invite them to smile for the camera

[PoorSucker]

You have violated two things stated on your work permit already.

1. Not having your WP at the place of work.

2. Working at a location not stated in your work permit.

Did you get a fine, you should have got 3000 baht fine.

Page 31 in work permit.

Paragraph 1: not keeping WP at place of work during office hours, 1000 baht.

Paragraph 2: engage in work at location not specified in WP, 2000 baht or one month in prison or both.

You can have two addresses on legal document for the company, but you must have address in WP where you actually work( can be several offices )

They do not make raids like this without cause, someone has tipped them off.

Edited April 4, 2012 by PoorSucker

[Romfordboy]

Yep, my first thought was someone's trying to do your legs and bubbled you up to immigration.

[handydog]

Is this rrelated to the recent post by another TV member that was rippred off for 100K ??

In this instance, if you had complied with the regulations regarding work permits... you would have nothing to fear.

[hgma]

refused to show ID?

question 1

What sort of business

question 2

Any "nearby competitor" (Chinese or Viet?)

NK had a case of foreigner.......famous bar and food.......came in sight of the most powerful chinese entrapeneurs family.

long story short...............he had to leave!

To make a clear case of immigration involvement ...go to your immigration office and repy/complain.

[Badbanker]

All Police officers whether Immigration Police Officers or not, MUST show credentials to verify their real identity before making any real legal inquiries, what so ever, either about your work permit, visa status or any other matter.

If they do not then it is time to start taking lots of pictures with several smart phones and ask one of your staff to discreetly go to the Police Station in your area with one of the smart phones containing picture of these supposed officers to show the local police officers. Please go directly to the Superintendent of the station and report the activity. This will cause a serious reaction by the local Police as I have seen it on several occasions!

I believe Police have no authority to ask how much you make, only labor department officials and tax department official have this authority.

[moe666]

If they will not show ID ask them to leave, believe it or not you do have protection under Thai Law. This sounds like the music scam that has been played in Chiang Mai. They say they represent music co. but are just a scam group, and as someone said yes you need a lawyer you can call.

[necronx99]

You've been set up for special attention by a competator or other malcontent.

They may well have been immigration by their knowledge but refusal to show ID means they were not acting in an official capacity.

Go and get your pepers properly sorted.

If they come again call the cops and take photos. Call a lawyer and refuse them entry unless they show ID.

[bangkokburning]

I concur. If I were a betting man ...

Competitor asked cops to shake you down. All of PoorSuckers noted misdemeanors while relevant are not because object of the shake down is to hopefully find you did not have a WP and close you down. After that - point is sort of moot, esp when you produced a WP.

Cops are happy to help. Classic shake down with no badges or ID. I mean what country allows this to happen? Thailand may be a corrupt, screwed up little country but cops cannot pounce upon someone without proper ID. I would venture to say a warrant as well.

In the end, cops were hoping you had no WP and this would mean big money for them to keep you out of the monkey house. You would be freaked out and close business. Everyone on their side wins. Even now if you decided the small money for hard work is not gainful after the assault, they still win.

In Thailand, you can never win. This sort of thing is really a case for International courts. Thailand cannot consider itself a trading and business partner, subject to all sorts of agreements when this stuff routinely goes on.

Put an electronic lock on the door. If they come back again have your wife call the police and state you are being robbed. I have a feeling though if they are not let in, they will BREAK in, these are thugs and coming to scare you. They will not go away easily. All the Thai's witnessing this will know exactly what is going on and fear and no one will call on their mobile sure. The thugs will anticipate this if they break in. IF cops do arrive it will be a real issue for the thugs but cops being cops and Thailand being Thailand everything will just disappear and your calls and demands for justice will be met by unresponsive police/investigators.

If you choose to stay on, get a good cctv camera - not that it will do you any good because when this comes out, you get a lawyer and file suit. You will have thugs about you and your wife and maybe even kill you. Would be classic Thailand for you to die in a robbery or run over by a car - even injured well enough to get out of Thailand. Thais are very vindictive as I am sure you well know. Crooked cops of all people will not take getting brought up on charges lightly - that is...even if a judge doesn't just dismiss them outright on some trivial point.

Having said all this, another dimension to Thailand is - you won. They came, you had a WP, you are married to a Thai (big plus), she was present and witnessed this (as did others). In the end, they had nothing and went away. They may very well know there is no there there. Its done, finis! :-)

If you really want to stir the pot, go to the TV stations!

Edited April 5, 2012 by bangkokburning

[BrianCR]

refused to show ID?

question 1

What sort of business

question 2

Any "nearby competitor" (Chinese or Viet?)

NK had a case of foreigner.......famous bar and food.......came in sight of the most powerful chinese entrapeneurs family.

long story short...............he had to leave!

To make a clear case of immigration involvement ...go to your immigration office and repy/complain.

Complain about what, that he was breaking the law? He didn't have his work permit with him and the wrong address - now HE has to make a complaint? Takes a foreigner to do that!

[lounger]

A bottle of Black Label in the right hands.....in advance.

[bangkokburning]

BrianCR - don't be an idiot.

The WP was not at the place of business, fair enough

The WP was delivered to his place of business BY HIS THAI WIFE - instantly

Problem solved - save for the WP is for his home, not office. But can he legally work in Thailand - YES. Was he doing the job he applied for on the WP - YES.

Only someone looking to make something out of nothing would hassle this guy at the point the WP was produced.

To take up the side of "police" that would not (note WOULD NOT) identify themselves is really astonishing.

[Dork]

All Police officers whether Immigration Police Officers or not, MUST show credentials to verify their real identity before making any real legal inquiries, what so ever, either about your work permit, visa status or any other matter.

If they do not then it is time to start taking lots of pictures with several smart phones and ask one of your staff to discreetly go to the Police Station in your area with one of the smart phones containing picture of these supposed officers to show the local police officers. Please go directly to the Superintendent of the station and report the activity. This will cause a serious reaction by the local Police as I have seen it on several occasions!

I believe Police have no authority to ask how much you make, only labor department officials and tax department official have this authority.

I think this is excellent advice. Many years ago I has a somewhat similar experience. In my case I think it was a disgruntled ex-employee that had managed to arrange this "bust". We were all legal and the only offence they were able to find was not having one of the three work permits on hand. Yes by law the WP has to be with the employee. However in real life the chance that it is away with a lawyer or a messenger as part of some beauracratic process is quite high. It is a minor offence but the modus operandi of these guys is to be as inimidating as possible. For me it was a very unpleasant experience which caused me to reevaluate my being in Thailand. I can really sympathise with the op here.

Badbanker, if you don't mind I have a couple of questions for you.

1 - What rights of entry do these guys (immigration inspectors?) have? If as in my case it is just a quiet office not open to the public, can they just barge in without a warrant of some sort?

2 - Is it within your rights to ask to record details of whatever ID card is presented? I ask this because most people would have no idea what an official ID card looks like. It would be pretty easy to make a fake ID card then wave it in your face. In the panicked situation that they create you won't remember the details.

If a similar thing ever happened to me again, I would remain calm, call the local police (even dial 191) and not follow any of these thugs instructions until the police arrived, no matter what they did or said.

Thanks in advance.

[bangkokburning]

Pulling out a camera and taking photos - guess you want a good beating or at the very least, your camera broken. Which - would be FANTASTIC to have on CCTV!! :-))

DORK: You are a farang - you have no rights. That is why they preyed upon this guy in the first place.

Go to the media with the CCTV evidence - that is a shi*storm! :-))

[saengsureeya]

Probably your business is too successful according to others.

You were telling that others offices in the area were watching how your were treated by the 'officers'.

If I were you, visit the Immigration office if you have time. Take a small gift with you and make an appointment with the 'big boss'. Become 'friends', explain the situation and ask what is to be expected in such cases.

Next they come to hastle you without showing any kind of ID, you phone your 'friend' at Immigration. Always works.

But believe me,it might rather be a tip off from a competing office.

[bobl]

I swear if you did a "search & replace" and replaced "Thailand" with "Tanzania" on many of the forum threads, I could almost be where I'm at in my other life (doing business in Africa).

The scenario you just described isn't unique to Thailand. In Tanzania the only way to deal with these people is to know bigger people, it's not what you know it's who you know. Get friendly with somebody senior in your nearest police station or immigration office, for a start. Take him for a beer, get him a bottle of whisky on holidays and christmas, and have him on speed dial. This isn't illegal or bribery it's common sense. Just explain to him that you'd like to have a reliable contact you can call in the event of problems like these.

When I took over an Irish Pub in Tanzania in the first month I had visits from Fire, Health, Labour, VAT, Immigration, Cosota (copyright society - music license), City Council, Refuse Department, Water Board, Electric Company - and each and every one of them had a list of "violations" (The health guys were the funniest - they brought a couple of expired cans of a beer we didn't even sell with them, and "found" them in our fridge). Without exception, all they were interested in was their tea money. New owner, somebody new to shake down. If I'd been wet behind the ears I'd have been screwed.

I suspect this is something you're going to have to battle through but once you emerge from the other end, they should all leave you alone... for a while... But you can be sure they've made a note of exactly which day your work permit expires...

[Badbanker]

Badbanker, if you don't mind I have a couple of questions for you.

1 - What rights of entry do these guys (immigration inspectors?) have? If as in my case it is just a quiet office not open to the public, can they just barge in without a warrant of some sort?

2 - Is it within your rights to ask to record details of whatever ID card is presented? I ask this because most people would have no idea what an official ID card looks like. It would be pretty easy to make a fake ID card then wave it in your face. In the panicked situation that they create you won't remember the details.

If a similar thing ever happened to me again, I would remain calm, call the local police (even dial 191) and not follow any of these thugs instructions until the police arrived, no matter what they did or said.

Thanks in advance.

Immigration Police Officers have the right on the presentation of Valid Identification in English, to ask for your passport and I think examine your work permit. A warrant is not necessary as they can do routine checks.

All Immigration Police Officers, due to the nature of their work are by law required to show you a valid legible ID card in English and Thai language and to have it examined in detail.

Local Police do not have English ID cards only Thai ones and do not have the right to go into your office and must remain in the outer office. Without a court issued warrant they do not have the right search or go into the inner office or inside your house. They may request you to go to a Police Station

As a previous posters has said, their are lots of fake Police ID cards out there. Take an opportunity to photograph the alleged police and their ID cards with your smartphone for "my lawyers future reference". It is also your right to have their Thai Police ID examined in detail by a Thai person who is someone you trust!

If the alleged police officers refuse, then politely ask them to leave and despatch someone to the nearest local Police Station with their vehicle registration and a number of photos of them. I would also suggest that you inform alleged police officers that you are going to the Police Station and they can travel with you or with out them and proceed directly to the Police Station having jurisdiction over your area.

Go by yourself and take all of your documents and any foreign employees and their documents to the Police Station, as this is seen as a sign of good faith and legitimate Police will act in a positive manner to this.

Plan Ahead

Anticipate this may happen in the future and primarily stay legal at all times!

Have the telephone number of the local Police Station in whose jurisdiction your work or live, HANDY, and get to know one of the Deputy Superintendents by presenting your business card and a 500 baht basket of fruit as a gesture of courtesy.

Have a good CCTV system and explain to the "Police officers" that all video is being archived and uploaded to a server off-site as we speak for retrieval at a future date from anywhere in the world. If they are not real they will generally disappear.

Have a lawyer prepared to speak to them and call him and ask him to attend your office or meet you at the police station NOW.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Badbanker

[Maestro]

My problem is what to do if this happens again?

My suggestion: call 1111

[simon43]

My suggestion: call 1111

If they get angry, it might be prudent to also call 1669

[Geekfreaklover]

work permits are not immigration's business. Work permit's are handled by the department of labour.

It's a set up. Get a lawyer. A good one with connections.

[Badbanker]

Before I wrote my last detailed response I called and spoke to a trusted and straight senior Police Officer.

One of his first statements to me was there are a number of fake police officers around and the best way to counter them is to follow the procedure I outlined above.

I have seen 3 incidents of fake police being caught and imprisoned for 10 years. Two of these were ex police who knew the law and could bluff people well.

Police in general are scared of lawyers as lawyers know the law and the police don't really. Police are also petrified of having their picture taken as they always end up on the wrong end of things.

Youtube and social media are great levelers!

Long live iPhones and CCTV cameras.

[ste860]

very rare to be a spot check ,its usually a competiter or someone you have problem with ,my money would be a rival bussiness

[Badbanker]

Or as my senior police friends say some disgraced ex police see a new foreign business in town and decide to target it. Just follow the Police recommended procedure.

I remember one incident, when these fake officers stood right next to a hi res video for 10 mins making their demands before it was pointed out to them and it was explained that staff had already sent their pictures to an officer at the local Police station. They flew out the door.

Police identified them as ex patrol officers who had been fired for corruption and shortly there after apprehended them. They got bail and fled the locale. The judge convicted them in absentia for 10 years jail. They are probably living in the jungle or in a nearby country for the next 10 years waiting for the statute of limitations on their conviction and sentence to expire. Sort of like convicted ex MP Wattana Asawaheme and infamous Kamnan Poh from Chonburi!

Edited April 7, 2012 by Badbanker

[PoorSucker]

work permits are not immigration's business. Work permit's are handled by the department of labour.

It's a set up. Get a lawyer. A good one with connections.

True that labour issues WP but immigrations police is the authority to enforce it.

[Markland]

I concur. If I were a betting man ...

Competitor asked cops to shake you down. All of PoorSuckers noted misdemeanors while relevant are not because object of the shake down is to hopefully find you did not have a WP and close you down. After that - point is sort of moot, esp when you produced a WP.

Cops are happy to help. Classic shake down with no badges or ID. I mean what country allows this to happen? Thailand may be a corrupt, screwed up little country but cops cannot pounce upon someone without proper ID. I would venture to say a warrant as well.

In the end, cops were hoping you had no WP and this would mean big money for them to keep you out of the monkey house. You would be freaked out and close business. Everyone on their side wins. Even now if you decided the small money for hard work is not gainful after the assault, they still win.

In Thailand, you can never win. This sort of thing is really a case for International courts. Thailand cannot consider itself a trading and business partner, subject to all sorts of agreements when this stuff routinely goes on.

Put an electronic lock on the door. If they come back again have your wife call the police and state you are being robbed. I have a feeling though if they are not let in, they will BREAK in, these are thugs and coming to scare you. They will not go away easily. All the Thai's witnessing this will know exactly what is going on and fear and no one will call on their mobile sure. The thugs will anticipate this if they break in. IF cops do arrive it will be a real issue for the thugs but cops being cops and Thailand being Thailand everything will just disappear and your calls and demands for justice will be met by unresponsive police/investigators.

If you choose to stay on, get a good cctv camera - not that it will do you any good because when this comes out, you get a lawyer and file suit. You will have thugs about you and your wife and maybe even kill you. Would be classic Thailand for you to die in a robbery or run over by a car - even injured well enough to get out of Thailand. Thais are very vindictive as I am sure you well know. Crooked cops of all people will not take getting brought up on charges lightly - that is...even if a judge doesn't just dismiss them outright on some trivial point.

Having said all this, another dimension to Thailand is - you won. They came, you had a WP, you are married to a Thai (big plus), she was present and witnessed this (as did others). In the end, they had nothing and went away. They may very well know there is no there there. Its done, finis! :-)

If you really want to stir the pot, go to the TV stations!

jeez mate.I bet he feels really great after that lol.Seriously not discounting your points they are all valid but i had similar problems before with highish ranking officers who tried to shake me down.They tried any trick in the book to take me to station lucky i have a good lawyer i called him he spoke to the police on the phone and told me to not talk to them or go anywhere with them.After that never heard from them again.Was 4 years ago.Since then all of them have been to different positions in thailand.So not here anymore to bother me