Buying Real Estate For Your Gay Thai Lover

[Asiantravel]

I know someone who has purchased a business and even the real estate for the business

a few years ago which is obviously in the Thai persons name.

But now it is very much unrequited love on the part of the farang and the Thai person

even avoids spending time with this older lover whenever possible. Even worse

he ridicules the farang to other people which I think really shows how superficial

the whole thing is.at the very least you would think this kind of thing should be private

between the two parties but to regularly broadcast this matter in public

I think is in poor taste.

it is quite sad really.

Of course once the real estate if in their name there is no chance you are going to

get a fair settlement later down the track if things go sour.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Asiantravel

[Ijustwannateach]

It has frequently been said over on the 'straight side' of this forum that you should never bring, invest, loan, or give any funds in Thailand that you are not prepared to view as a gift or write off as an affordable loss.

There is also an old expression 'good money after bad', along with 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me'.

It is of course too bad when people are ungrateful for those who help them- but the 'helpers' are responsible for their own choices, and if they make bad choices, they need to examine what lies behind that pattern- not spend all their time wailing over the 'world's' (really just the small handful of people they choose) ingratitude.

Sadly, it seems that a lot of those who finally manage to find 'partners' in Thailand are making choices to spend time with people who are bad for them. One easy and early sign of this is lack of emotional attachment and focus on financial support. Being unable to observe the lack of emotional attachment and to see it as a problem is the source of the issue for many of these 'mistreated' foreigners.

The dreary stories go on and on, of course, as the foreigners spend and lose ever greater stakes in the internal hopes that it 'will be enough this time' to guarantee that their 'loved' ones should be grateful. Until they've lost it all and proven the 'world' hates them of course- and they're not responsible, it's the fault of that 'ungrateful' ogre.

Sadly, the delusional and lost state of the types who fall into this pattern is pretty intractable- believe me, I've tried talking with many of them about it. What they probably really need is a lot of counselling, but even so they have to be 'ready' for it. And a lot of them aren't ready until right up to the brink of self-destruction and beyond.

[geriatrickid]

On this topic, homosexual, heterosexual, metrosexual, asexual, all are treated equally. Some get screwed and a minority have success. Those that have had a stable LTR before the transaction are more likely to not have problems. My gut tells me that a couple with children is also going to have an edge. (note that I did not specify gender in this regard as the defining characteristic is home for the family, not the sexuality of the couple.) Any guy that thinks if he buys property for his lover and then heads back to farangland and assumes all will be well is playing against the odds. The only way to minimize problems is to be here as much as possible. As well, any attempts to circumvent the current ownership laws or to play with loopholes plants the seed of torment and heartbreak at a later date.

I think the key issue is to explain to one's partner/lover (male or female or transgender) why one will not buy property. The man that can do this successfully, is a charmer and/or brilliant and/or has a partner/lover that is reasonable. The Thai that would understand and not be bitter is the one that would be a candidate to involve in such a transaction when the time is right.

As my companion often tells me, if I disappear or die, what will be left for her if I do not buy something? My response, that she can have my old clothes and some cash doesn't quite do the trick. I envy the man that has this issue resolved.

[Ijustwannateach]

^I also think, GK, that in the case of women this is a more pointed question- because they typically have other family duties in Thailand and are treated unequally with respect to employment. It's still reasonable for them to worry about provisions for them and their dependents in the future.

This is, however, one of the main reasons I have recommended at various points that people in gay relationships in Thailand choose to support (if needed) only partners who are also working. In the long run, there are very few sums of money that can really make up for a lack of work and social experience for one or more decades, and it is a very selfish partner (of a male particularly) who would not insist that they remain employed for that reason alone, even if the money 'isn't important' in the context of the relationship. PARTICULARLY if the partner is an elderly retired person who is more likely to die in the middle of the younger Thai partner's would-be 'working' life.

While the younger partner may initially be glad not to work, I think many of them miss the socialising of it, and eventually they will realise that they have missed something important for their future.

[Asiantravel]

the farang actually lives here in Thailand full-time

I forgot to mention also I think is very mean on the part of the Thai is the farang

wanted to join his boyfriend at his home in Isan during Songkran whereupon

the Thai refused saying the farang boyfriend might be an embarrassment to his family and friends!

Can you believe this after buying the guy property and setting him up in business

he is treated this way? I think it stinks

[tombkk]

the farang actually lives here in Thailand full-time

I forgot to mention also I think is very mean on the part of the Thai is the farang

wanted to join his boyfriend at his home in Isan during Songkran whereupon

the Thai refused saying the farang boyfriend might be an embarrassment to his family and friends!

Can you believe this after buying the guy property and setting him up in business

he is treated this way? I think it stinks

You obviously describe a case of real love. (Where is that sarcasm icon when I need it?)

But, as IJWT said, one should only invest as much in somebody else's name as one is prepared to lose.

We also used to have a saying amongst expats here in Thailand, "if you haven't bought a house yet in your girlfriend's/boyfriend's name and lost all of it, you haven't really arrived in Thailand yet". That was in the 90s, I don't know why people don't say it any more. Too close to home?

I say, the school of life isn't free. You pay your tutoring fees like everybody else. Yes, you can cry "foul", but fact is, life isn't fair. Welcome to the real world.

[Ijustwannateach]

Of course it's not nice. But is it a surprise, really?

I bet if you asked 5 people who knew this couple well- if there are 5 who knew them well- that most of them would admit that there were plenty of signs of trouble long before, and that 1 or more of them would have advised the foreigner to break it off or be very careful. I bet that there would have been fairly evident signs of lying, cheating, and even stealing before. I bet there would have been petty greediness which would have been excused or overlooked.

I bet no one held a gun to the foreigner's head and insisted he do this foolish thing. I bet he had his own misgivings which he suppressed in the name of 'love'.

I bet that the Thai partner would rarely have gone out of his way to do anything which wasn't directly requested, and not always then. I bet that the relationship was clearly, obviously one-sided from the start, and furthermore I bet that the foreign partner has a pattern of relationships which looks exactly the same each time- but it's never HIS responsibility after they end, usually messily and dramatically (and now expensively).

I bet that when others warned the foreign partner about the risks they saw so clearly, they would have been loudly and angrily rebuffed, and probably avoided contact with the Thai partner and avoided giving any honest advice to the foreign partner thereafter. I bet furthermore that later, the foreign partner will angrily confront others and ask 'why you didn't say anything?'

And maybe not every single one of these bets is a winner, but I bet most of them are.

These are the patterns of a person with low self-esteem who has relationship problems as a result, but doesn't want to do the painful and difficult things necessary to learn to change himself emotionally and socially, to learn to love himself and relate to other people.

Since there are many of these low-self-esteeming foreign people here in Thailand, and lots of people on the tourist scene willing to help them con themselves, it almost seems 'normal'. It's not the Thais. It's the foreigners.

[balo]

I forgot to mention also I think is very mean on the part of the Thai is the farang

wanted to join his boyfriend at his home in Isan during Songkran whereupon

the Thai refused saying the farang boyfriend might be an embarrassment to his family and friends!

Can you believe this after buying the guy property and setting him up in business

he is treated this way? I think it stinks

Of course its an ambarrassment for a Thai, gay or straight , its probably a big age gap between them , maybe its not even real love.

[endure]

My boyf, who is 20 years younger than me, dragged me off to meet the folks within a fortnight of meeting me.

[balo]

My boyf, who is 20 years younger than me, dragged me off to meet the folks within a fortnight of meeting me.

Of course he did. How much money have you spent on his family since then ?

[endure]

My boyf, who is 20 years younger than me, dragged me off to meet the folks within a fortnight of meeting me.

Of course he did. How much money have you spent on his family since then ?

I contributed towards his younger brother's funeral when he got killed in a motorbike accident. I even saw his body go up in a puff of smoke. It cost me 3000Bt. I also paid his mother's hospital bill when she had a lung infection - 2700bt. So that's an average of 320bt a year. Otherwise nothing - the boyf keeps me well away from his family as he's not very keen on what he calls 'Thaistyle' - He prefers our strange western way of saying what we think. Your mileage may differ...

[Ijustwannateach]

Among my Thai acquaintance:

One ex of mine has lent me money- not large sums, but compared to his own salary quite high percentage-wise- more often than I have lent to him (I don't make a habit of it, but there are months where it seems everything happens at once and all of it going wrong...).

Another ex asks me once in a while for a loan and always pays it back.

A friend- just a friend- has recently asked to borrow a bit; first time in 6 years of knowing each other, and we like hanging out a lot, so I imagine I'll get it back.

I have had a couple of negative experiences over the years, but with small amounts of money- and well worth getting rid of anyone who valued my friendship so poorly. That's where I fear that the OP's friend and other similar foreigners make their mistake... if through a lapse of judgement or 'blind love' or whatever you let yourself get bitten once, you drop the connection. It bears repeating, though I'm afraid some people will never learn: Drop the connection. Drop the connection. or as Dan Savage says: DTMFA (you can search for what the acronym means at his column).

If you find that ALL the people you meet/befriend are 'trouble' of this sort, then YOU are the common link, and it's time to examine the ways you meet people and/or whether you have a pattern of poor choices/low self-esteem/blindness to flaws- because it's NOT Thailand. Thailand has plenty of people who aren't into this kind of parasitizing- but they're not hanging around tourist dives, mostly.

[LeCharivari]

This is, however, one of the main reasons I have recommended at various points that people in gay relationships in Thailand choose to support (if needed) only partners who are also working. In the long run, there are very few sums of money that can really make up for a lack of work and social experience for one or more decades, and it is a very selfish partner (of a male particularly) who would not insist that they remain employed for that reason alone, even if the money 'isn't important' in the context of the relationship. PARTICULARLY if the partner is an elderly retired person who is more likely to die in the middle of the younger Thai partner's would-be 'working' life.

While the younger partner may initially be glad not to work, I think many of them miss the socialising of it, and eventually they will realise that they have missed something important for their future.

So I recall - as I recall disagreeing with your generalisation, PARTICULARLY when the elder/farang partner is not working himself.

If one partner is working, either by need or by choice, then I can see no reason for the other partner to stop working - if one partner stopped work and it didn't give them any more time together what would either of them gain? "Even if the money 'isn't important' in the context of the relationship", if I were the only one working and making "our" money then every time I put my hand in my pocket I would be wondering why he wasn't contributing - as well as what he was doing all day while I was away. It wouldn't be his lack of "social experience " and "socialising" that I would be worrying about!

On the other hand, why would someone who is not working and who is able to support their partner (including after their own death) not want to spend more time with their partner whenever they can? My partner (20 years my junior) and I have been together for 10 years, and I can't see any possible reason why I should "insist" that he went back to work and I saw less of him - why on earth would I want to stay at home every day, alone, while he was "socialising" at work? He has plenty of opportunity to "socialize" without me whenever he wants to: he's gone back to Isaan for Songkran for a week, for example, while I've stayed at home - not because I "might be an embarrassment to his family and friends", as we've been there together at other times, but because I don't enjoy Songkran, while he does.

For us, every day is a weekend when we can be together and do the things every couple does at the weekend together - why would I want to reduce either of our dailylives to a weekday?

If all I had to leave him was "my old clothes and some cash" then things would be different, but fortunately I (and probably a good few others, gay and straight) am not in that position and have taken responsibility for his future - how can that be "selfish"?

[LeCharivari]

My boyf, who is 20 years younger than me, dragged me off to meet the folks within a fortnight of meeting me.

Of course he did. How much money have you spent on his family since then ?

I contributed towards his younger brother's funeral when he got killed in a motorbike accident. I even saw his body go up in a puff of smoke. It cost me 3000Bt. I also paid his mother's hospital bill when she had a lung infection - 2700bt. So that's an average of 320bt a year. Otherwise nothing - the boyf keeps me well away from his family as he's not very keen on what he calls 'Thaistyle' - He prefers our strange western way of saying what we think. Your mileage may differ...

My partner is an orphan, so some things are different and some the same - he has plenty of brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, etc. Most (his choice, not mine) are welcome at our home and visit regularly; none have ever asked for anything, although I know that he has occasionally lent some money to some when they needed it (apart from on one occasion when one sister was lent 10,000 baht to help her start a business selling squid - it failed as her irresponsible adult sons spent whatever she made, but she still paid it back in 3 months as agreed). Some are reasonably well off and will invite us out for dinner, etc, while others are not and we may buy them a present of some clothes for a young child or (twice) a children's bicycle; some will be happy to take home a bunch of bananas or some coconuts.

Its all a bit boringly normal, really .....

[Ijustwannateach]

^^Your mileage may vary. Many that I have met do not or will not look ahead and can not or will not guarantee their partners the way you and a small minority of others do, and my comments are mainly directed at the former group..

[Suradit69]

It has frequently been said over on the 'straight side' of this forum that you should never bring, invest, loan, or give any funds in Thailand that you are not prepared to view as a gift or write off as an affordable loss.

Exactly. Once something is given to your friend, it becomes his.

The original message seems to be mixing up the emotional relationship issues with the real estate. It's sad that things didn't work out and, from the sound of it, have turned nasty, but if the farang's main concern is getting his fair share of the real estate, that may explain why the relationship was built on a shaky foundation in the first place.

If you give your friend something, it should be because you care about him/her and not in the hopes that you'll buy his/her unending devotion. If you think the only way you can hang onto him/her is by buying increasingly expensive things (that you'll desperately try to claw back if things go bust), then that's almost certainly going to be a lost cause.

Anytime I give something to my friend, it becomes his. I don't keep asking about it or continually fish for praise or lie awake wondering if my "investment" is benefiting me.

I've parted company with two friends over the years and always assume it could happen again, although I hope not, but I don't begrudge any of them anything they got out of the time we spent together. In each case it was because I did help them that they were able to become independent. We still talk on the phone from time to time and I consider them all good friends. In each case we both benefitted from the experience and I continue to wish them well.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Sounds like you have your eyes open.

[Ijustwannateach]

Somewhat related to the topic here - when I find friends beginning to do this chronic complaining thing about their Thai partners- (when it's the rule rather than an occasional spat, which is only to be expected in any relationship)- what I usually do is attempt to get them out of their boxes this way: 'Ok, then- tell me- if this isn't bad enough to leave them- what WOULD be?' (it might be a worthwhile experiment for the gentle readers out there now to ask themselves about their own partners). Most people can come up with *some*thing that would be bad enough- even it involves something as unlikely and extreme as malicious murder of a friend or family member.

If they can come up with a relationship-related boundary and then later stick to it, they may be on the road to recovery. It's a very bad sign if they won't even commit for their own sakes to such a theoretical boundary. I'm learning to recognise that as a sign of hopeless irrationality in people in any area where they are not good with boundaries.

[Asiantravel]

It has frequently been said over on the 'straight side' of this forum that you should never bring, invest, loan, or give any funds in Thailand that you are not prepared to view as a gift or write off as an affordable loss.

Exactly. Once something is given to your friend, it becomes his.

The original message seems to be mixing up the emotional relationship issues with the real estate. It's sad that things didn't work out and, from the sound of it, have turned nasty, but if the farang's main concern is getting his fair share of the real estate, that may explain why the relationship was built on a shaky foundation in the first place.

If you give your friend something, it should be because you care about him/her and not in the hopes that you'll buy his/her unending devotion. If you think the only way you can hang onto him/her is by buying increasingly expensive things (that you'll desperately try to claw back if things go bust), then that's almost certainly going to be a lost cause.

Anytime I give something to my friend, it becomes his. I don't keep asking about it or continually fish for praise or lie awake wondering if my "investment" is benefiting me.

I've parted company with two friends over the years and always assume it could happen again, although I hope not, but I don't begrudge any of them anything they got out of the time we spent together. In each case it was because I did help them that they were able to become independent. We still talk on the phone from time to time and I consider them all good friends. In each case we both benefitted from the experience and I continue to wish them well.

no this is not the case at all. Both are still " together " although they don't seem to spend much time in each other's company.

There is no question of any party asking the other for anything back.

My remarks were based solely on my own shock and horror that a foreigner can give something quite substantial like this

to someone and have done so with a genuinely good intent to try to help the individual and his family but is then treated with such

disrespect behind his back.not only that, the Thai person said words to the effect of I don't care what happens now I've got money.

This is a horrible and ugly trait that I have seen more than once in this country

Edited April 15, 2012 by Asiantravel

[Suradit69]

My remarks were based solely on my own shock and horror that a foreigner can give something quite substantial like this

to someone and have done so with a genuinely good intent to try to help the individual and his family but is then treated with such

disrespect behind his back.not only that, the Thai person said words to the effect of I don't care what happens now I've got money.

This is a horrible and ugly trait that I have seen more than once in this country

Whether they remain together or have parted is irrelevant. If all that you claim is taking place BEHIND HIS BACK is actually happening, they can't be all that much together in any meaningful way. And, stressing that "a foreigner can give something quite substantial" ought to be irrelevant although it clearly suggests that in your mind a relationship should flourish if substantial financial exchanges take place.

Attempting to buy gratitude and love is more of a farang thing, if you want to discuss ugly traits. Certainly quite a number of farang come to Thailand because they figure they can exploit the economic disparity between themselves and some young Thai, whether male or female. Not the stuff of fairy tale romances or a platform from which to take the moral high ground. Your friend's good intentions seem unlikely to be all that altruistic or realistic if he's managed to generate such animosity.

You've certainly not mentioned anything about their personal relationship other than its Santa Claus nature. Apparently the real estate was the only thing of substance that actually existed between them if things have become so unpleasant.

I assume you posted this whole thing with the objective of generating some sympathy for the poor soul who's being talked about behind his back and to gain support for the notion that ugly traits abound in Thailand when it comes to saintly foreigners dispensing largesse only to be treated badly by the ungrateful natives. Your concern is quite touching and I'm sure your friend is quite lucky to have your support as you broadcast his personal circumstances on a web forum. I hope it's not being done BEHIND HIS BACK.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Suradit69

[LeCharivari]

^^Your mileage may vary. Many that I have met do not or will not look ahead and can not or will not guarantee their partners the way you and a small minority of others do, and my comments are mainly directed at the former group..

Aaah .... then, with that proviso, I agree.

[tombkk]

Hm. I don't think this is a gay issue, many straight people I know have bought land and houses in their girlfriend's names, with the same result. On the other hand, I know gay and straight couples where everything went well.

Is this a cultural issue, farang vs. Thai? Or is this a class issue?

[Asiantravel]

My remarks were based solely on my own shock and horror that a foreigner can give something quite substantial like this

to someone and have done so with a genuinely good intent to try to help the individual and his family but is then treated with such

disrespect behind his back.not only that, the Thai person said words to the effect of I don't care what happens now I've got money.

This is a horrible and ugly trait that I have seen more than once in this country

Whether they remain together or have parted is irrelevant. If all that you claim is taking place BEHIND HIS BACK is actually happening, they can't be all that much together in any meaningful way. And, stressing that "a foreigner can give something quite substantial" ought to be irrelevant although it clearly suggests that in your mind a relationship should flourish if substantial financial exchanges take place.

Attempting to buy gratitude and love is more of a farang thing, if you want to discuss ugly traits. Certainly quite a number of farang come to Thailand because they figure they can exploit the economic disparity between themselves and some young Thai, whether male or female. Not the stuff of fairy tale romances or a platform from which to take the moral high ground. Your friend's good intentions seem unlikely to be all that altruistic or realistic if he's managed to generate such animosity.

You've certainly not mentioned anything about their personal relationship other than its Santa Claus nature. Apparently the real estate was the only thing of substance that actually existed between them if things have become so unpleasant.

I assume you posted this whole thing with the objective of generating some sympathy for the poor soul who's being talked about behind his back and to gain support for the notion that ugly traits abound in Thailand when it comes to saintly foreigners dispensing largesse only to be treated badly by the ungrateful natives. Your concern is quite touching and I'm sure your friend is quite lucky to have your support as you broadcast his personal circumstances on a web forum. I hope it's not being done BEHIND HIS BACK.

You are totally incorrect! Where have I said in my posts that things have become unpleasant between them? It's you that keeps falsely implying there is any hostility between them when they are together. in fact the foreigner seems totally oblivious to any lack of true feelings on the part of his Thai boyfriend and when they are together in public they do seem to show affection towards each other. It's only after the foreigner has gone and is out of sight that you see the other side of the Thai person's real nature.

And incidentally there is nothing wrong with me relaying this on at a web forum as you put it because I have not identified the people in question.

No I have written this because it somewhat confirms my belief that the gay scene in Thailand is full of people who will do almost anything for money and it's a warning to farang. You only have to look at the number of straight guys who work in the go go bars to see that and then laugh behind their backs when they go home to their girl friends and wives.

You have absolutely no grounds to even suggest that there was any element of exploitation in this case and knowing the foreigner involved I think he was simply trying to help someone he had feelings for to improve his position in life by setting him up in business which also involved the property. In return for doing this,at the very least the foreigner should expect courtesy and diplomacy on the part of his Thai boyfriend - at least to the extent that he should refrain from expressing his feelings in front of me!

To me it just emphasises how disingenuous this particular Thai person is and I simply question how many more out there think the same way he does?

Edited April 15, 2012 by Asiantravel

[LeCharivari]

..... Once something is given to your friend, it becomes his.

....If you give your friend something, it should be because you care about him/her and not in the hopes that you'll buy his/her unending devotion. If you think the only way you can hang onto him/her is by buying increasingly expensive things (that you'll desperately try to claw back if things go bust), then that's almost certainly going to be a lost cause.

Anytime I give something to my friend, it becomes his. I don't keep asking about it or continually fish for praise or lie awake wondering if my "investment" is benefiting me. ....

Attempting to buy gratitude and love is more of a farang thing, if you want to discuss ugly traits.

Suradit, you're spot on with your posts - a gift is a gift, end of story, not a bribe.

When my partner moved in to our house the house was in my company's name - I had rented before, but it wasn't practical and I wanted a particular type of house. After a year some land behind ours became available so I bought that, also in the Company name; after a couple more years some more land became available in front of ours so I bought that too, to stop anyone else buying it. I bought that in my partner's name as "insurance" for him, in case anything went wrong between us so he was guaranteed something if we had problems. Soon afterwards I added him as a full director of the Company (either signature), making the Company legal. A year or so later property transfer taxes went down briefly so I sold the house and land to him, paying a few thousand baht in transfer taxes instead of a few hundred thousand and closed the company. Three months later all those owning houses in Company names locally received a local tax notice, which included payment in arrears - as we had closed the Company we weren't liable (except for a local tax of 60 baht per rai per year!) but had we not done so the bill would have been around 500,000 baht. Maybe someone up above thought I had done the right thing.

As far as I'm concerned the house and land are his because chances are that at some time in the future they (and whatever else I have) will be his anyway, and I prefer not to give 40% to the UK taxman if I can avoid it. I could have taken out a 30 year lease "in case" something goes wrong or he dies before me, but I prefer to leave things to trust (and to his Will) rather than plan for the worst. If the worst happens, it happens - I'd miss him a hell of a lot more than I would the house or anything else.

As far as he's concerned, the house, etc, are still mine whatever I've said - its not something we talk about very much, but we have bad days sometimes like anyone else so it gets mentioned occasionally (in terms of "its yours" by both of us!)

Sure, there are good and bad people in Thailand, just as there are anywhere else - and social or financial status isn't always the best guide as to who is honest and who you can trust, although "Pretty Woman" (or Pretty Man) is pretty rare but it does happen very occasionally.

Edited April 15, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

Is this a cultural issue, farang vs. Thai? Or is this a class issue?

I think its a "leave your brains at home/in your trousers" issue, Tom - unless you're talking about the "class" of farang.

the gay scene in Thailand is full of people who will do almost anything for money and it's a warning to farang.

So Thais in the sex industry, gay or straight, are no better (and no worse) than their counterparts anywhere else in the world? Just sometimes better looking and better at their job? .... and farangs need to be warned about this?

Maybe you're right and they do .... but that's a reflection on the farangs, not the Thais.

[Asiantravel]

Is this a cultural issue, farang vs. Thai? Or is this a class issue?

I think its a "leave your brains at home/in your trousers" issue, Tom - unless you're talking about the "class" of farang.

the gay scene in Thailand is full of people who will do almost anything for money and it's a warning to farang.

So Thais in the sex industry, gay or straight, are no better (and no worse) than their counterparts anywhere else in the world? Just sometimes better looking and better at their job? .... and farangs need to be warned about this?

Maybe you're right and they do .... but that's a reflection on the farangs, not the Thais.

" So Thais in the sex industry, gay or straight, are no better (and no worse) than their counterparts anywhere else in the world? ":

well bearing in mind if they are meant to be Buddhists moral precept number 4 of The Pancha Shila says " Avoid lying, or any hurtful speech."

so it kind of makes a mockery of everything because in this case he has failed badly on that one

Edited April 15, 2012 by Asiantravel

[Ijustwannateach]

in fact the foreigner seems totally oblivious to any lack of true feelings on the part of his Thai boyfriend

You haven't directly addressed the many bets I made in one of my previous posts, but this line of yours confirms at least a few of them. The foreigner is not aware, he is oblivious, he is in denial.

And you yourself are now one of the five friends who knows them well enough to point out that there are problems, to say the least.

So why don't you do so? I bet (here I go again) that you already have or already know that the foreigner won't hear anything against his 'loved' one.

I say this as someone who has been in a similar position with other foreigners before, wondering why such (occasionally) smart and talented people couldn't 'see' what was going on and trying to 'wake them up'.

Unfortunately, it's a lost cause. They are deeply in denial and lack a sense of self-responsibility. You're not going to be the one who wakes that up in them- even THEY can't wake that up in themselves. For some reason, they got into a bad place and they are pretty much stuck and more-or-less satisfied (for the moment) with being stuck, because if they weren't they would start to move out of that place. Perhaps at the beginning of your friendship with this person you didn't know that about them; now you do. If you continue to press the issue, YOU will be blamed and held at fault because they don't want to be aware and they don't want to be unstuck and they don't want to lose the Thai partner (cad that he may be) because that person helps them maintain their delusion. There's a lot of it around.

Your only choice if you want to remain friends with such a person is to allow their relationship to remain a polite fiction. This is difficult because they will often try to use their friends to 'verify' their delusional viewpoint, and it is insulting to the intelligence. I have had less and less patience myself with such people in recent years, and now I either avoid them completely or make it clear that the subject of their delusion will not be indulged. They don't tend to get better, and you don't need such types pulling you down or giving you a warped view of how Thailand or Thai people really are.

If you start thinking about how this is not only a case of 'bad, bad Thai person' but also a case of 'extremely delusional and irresponsible foreigner', I think your own viewpoint may become more balanced on the situtation- however, if most of your acquaintance are people on the 'tourist scene', as I've said, this can seem 'normal'.

But that's just my idea.

[endure]

As usual we've only heard one side of the story - and a third party version at that. I suspect that things aren't quite as simple or black and white as we're being told.

[LeCharivari]

..... well bearing in mind if they are meant to be Buddhists moral precept number 4 of The Pancha Shila says " Avoid lying, or any hurtful speech."

so it kind of makes a mockery of everything because in this case he has failed badly on that one

Exodus 20:17

.... plenty of failures all round, whatever your beliefs

[tombkk]

Is this a cultural issue, farang vs. Thai? Or is this a class issue?

I think its a "leave your brains at home/in your trousers" issue, Tom - unless you're talking about the "class" of farang.

I did mean the social class, of both the farang and the Thai. But your comment is spot on, anyway!

the gay scene in Thailand is full of people who will do almost anything for money and it's a warning to farang.

So Thais in the sex industry, gay or straight, are no better (and no worse) than their counterparts anywhere else in the world? Just sometimes better looking and better at their job? .... and farangs need to be warned about this?

Maybe you're right and they do .... but that's a reflection on the farangs, not the Thais.

I agree, this is not a gay phenomenon.