Atm Debit Card Hacked

[richsilver]

Yesterday I logged into my Charles Schwab checking account in America only to discover there were two ATM transactions in Moscow on the 7th for $169 and $676 at two different ATMs.

I am very careful with my card. It was never out of my sight and lately I've only used it at the TMB branch in front of View Talay 2. The last use was April 4. Of course I notified Schwab immediately and they said they will begin a fraud investigation and I will not be responsible for the money. They canceled the card, but luckily, thanks to a posting on this forum, I had opened a second checking account and I simply transfered my balance (about $800) to it and am now using that ATM.

My questions:

1). How on earth did they do it?

2). Why did they not continue to withdraw money (there was some $800 left in the account)?

3). Why did it take 3 days from my last use of the card for the fraud?

4). What can we do to protect ourselves in the future?

[FarangBuddha]

If you are the paranoid type you could do all your banking at the teller window and decline to have an ATM card linked to your account. Also, keep all your teller-window transaction records so if there is anything amiss, it would have to have been an inside job.

[Penkoprod]

If you are the paranoid type you could do all your banking at the teller window and decline to have an ATM card linked to your account. Also, keep all your teller-window transaction records so if there is anything amiss, it would have to have been an inside job.

You know when you say "at the teller window"?

I wonder does it mean ONLY inside a bank, or can one of the exchange booths dotted around the place be used, with only a passbook? I am talking of booths belonging to the likes of Kasikorn, etc.

It would be handy to do it that way, instead of joining a long queue inside a bank

Penkoprod

[Ohyesuare]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

[richsilver]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

There was no card skimmer on the ATM. I use this machine all the time and I'm very careful to check for one. I always cover my hand when I enter my PIN, so even if they had a camera, my number could not be seen. The bank did not lock down the card until I notified them; they were not even aware of the Moscow transactions.

[MJCM]

If you are the paranoid type you could do all your banking at the teller window and decline to have an ATM card linked to your account. Also, keep all your teller-window transaction records so if there is anything amiss, it would have to have been an inside job.

You know when you say "at the teller window"?

I wonder does it mean ONLY inside a bank, or can one of the exchange booths dotted around the place be used, with only a passbook? I am talking of booths belonging to the likes of Kasikorn, etc.

It would be handy to do it that way, instead of joining a long queue inside a bank

Penkoprod

Penkoprod,

I think he means a teller within the Bank, the people at the exchange booths are (in my opinion) only authorized to do (as the name already suggests) currency exchange. To be 100% sure you have to ask them if you can do withdrawals from them with only your Bank Book and your passport / id card, but I sincerely doubt it that you can, but I agree that it would be handy to use them

Edit: //

Spelling

Edited April 13, 2012 by MJCM

[dazk]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

There was no card skimmer on the ATM. I use this machine all the time and I'm very careful to check for one. I always cover my hand when I enter my PIN, so even if they had a camera, my number could not be seen. The bank did not lock down the card until I notified them; they were not even aware of the Moscow transactions.

dont be so sure there is no skimmer check this out they are very clever now

also key boards to ready the pin

Edited April 13, 2012 by dazk

[SurfRider]

.

"If you are the paranoid type you could do all your banking at the teller window"

It's sometimes possible to get them to do an over-the-counter debit card withdrawal, but it's not always easy. Here's an experience I had at SCB (Siam Commercial Bank) in Pattaya

I mostly use the SCB satellite branch offices in the malls because they're open until 7:00 or 8:00pm, where the main branch teller counters close at 3:30pm.

The teller wouldn't do a withdrawal, so I asked for a supervisor. She tried twice to get me to use the ATM, but I told her I needed 30,000 Baht and the ATM limit was 20,000 -- she suggested doing it in two transactions. I told her I didn't want to pay the 150 Baht Thai ATM usury fee even once, let alone twice!

She finally agreed to do it but I needed to have my passport and SCB bank-book. They have to call an office in Bangkok to get approval. That office closes at 5:00pm, so you need to start this process well before that time. I finally got the cash, but the ordeal took 30 minutes.

ATMs are MUCH faster and the AEON ATMs don't charge the 150 Baht Thai usury fee. Unfortunately, there are only four of those in Pattaya.

.

[MZurf]

Get a Thai bank account and use Internet banking to transfer money to the Thai account. Get cash by withdrawing money using a bank book in an actual branch office. I've done it for years and have never had a problem.

Just out of curiosity; when you say "checking account" do you mean that you (US) guys still use checks (find that hard to believe) or is it just a name that has stuck?

[SurfRider]

.

Yes, you could say that "checking account" is just a name that has stuck, but that's what they're still called in the states. I have done all my banking on-line for years and haven't written a paper check since I can't remember when.

Your recommendation to open a local account is a good one, but very expensive over time when you transfer funds from a foreign country. Some Expats don' t mind paying the extra freight, others do.

I have been importing funds into Thailand for over 7 years and never paid a transfer charge or service charge on either end, and always receive the most favorable currency exchange rate. The inconvenience in doing it this way is that you normally use an ATM on the Thai end. Doing an over-the-counter debit card withdrawal is more complex and time consuming, but still accomplishes the same result if your Thai bank will do it.

.

[FarangBuddha]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

There was no card skimmer on the ATM. I use this machine all the time and I'm very careful to check for one. I always cover my hand when I enter my PIN, so even if they had a camera, my number could not be seen. The bank did not lock down the card until I notified them; they were not even aware of the Moscow transactions.

dont be so sure there is no skimmer check this out they are very clever now

also key boards to ready the pin

A little frighting how real those look and how they are attached to the ATM machines!

As many have posted in the past re this topic, the best defense is to use ATMs at an actual bank branch and avoid free-standing ones on the street, service stations, and in shopping areas as I would imagine the bank machines are serviced more frequently by bank staff so any tampering would be detected earlier and thieves may not even attempt to hack these machines in the first place. Also, as these devices don't actually connect into the inards of the ATM, I assume they just spit-out the card back to the user after being skimmed while the ATM continues to display the "welcome" message; it would not even display any sort of bank or ATM card error message. Obviously this would be strange and should immediately prompt one to seek out the assistance of bank staff (use during opening hours) to ensure that the machine hasn't been tampered with.

Of course, this requires planning when obtaining funds from an ATM and one sacrifices the ability to get cash anywhere at any time but for some, the added peace of mind may be worthwhile.

Edited April 13, 2012 by FarangBuddha

[pauljones]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

There was no card skimmer on the ATM. I use this machine all the time and I'm very careful to check for one. I always cover my hand when I enter my PIN, so even if they had a camera, my number could not be seen. The bank did not lock down the card until I notified them; they were not even aware of the Moscow transactions.

You cannot see the skimmers.

GOOGLE IMAGES 'ATM skimmer'

[pauljones]

My card was skimmed by the ATM just outside the front door of Bangkok Bank. The only ATM I use.

When I reported this to the bank staff and suggested they go and take a look at their machine, they just shrugged their shoulders and asked me to report it to the police...... they couldn't be bothered......

[kerryk]

My card was skimmed by the ATM just outside the front door of Bangkok Bank. The only ATM I use.

When I reported this to the bank staff and suggested they go and take a look at their machine, they just shrugged their shoulders and asked me to report it to the police...... they couldn't be bothered......

Was your card a Bangkok bank card and did this happen in Pattaya recently?

[dazk]

Now you know how the Russians fund their long stays in Pattaya. Sounds like they had a card skimmer attached to the machine along with a camera to capture your pin. Your bank probably locked down the card after the two withdrawals in Russia. I guess it takes a few days to transmit your card information to Russia and make the cloned card. Was your card one of the new ones with a chip inside? The best thing you can do to protect yourself is continuing using an ATM in a branch, check the card slot and keyboard if it can be detached or looks weird and cover your hand when entering your pin so even you can't see it.

There was no card skimmer on the ATM. I use this machine all the time and I'm very careful to check for one. I always cover my hand when I enter my PIN, so even if they had a camera, my number could not be seen. The bank did not lock down the card until I notified them; they were not even aware of the Moscow transactions.

dont be so sure there is no skimmer check this out they are very clever now

also key boards to ready the pin

A little frighting how real those look and how they are attached to the ATM machines!

As many have posted in the past re this topic, the best defense is to use ATMs at an actual bank branch and avoid free-standing ones on the street, service stations, and in shopping areas as I would imagine the bank machines are serviced more frequently by bank staff so any tampering would be detected earlier and thieves may not even attempt to hack these machines in the first place. Also, as these devices don't actually connect into the inards of the ATM, I assume they just spit-out the card back to the user after being skimmed while the ATM continues to display the "welcome" message; it would not even display any sort of bank or ATM card error message. Obviously this would be strange and should immediately prompt one to seek out the assistance of bank staff (use during opening hours) to ensure that the machine hasn't been tampered with.

Of course, this requires planning when obtaining funds from an ATM and one sacrifices the ability to get cash anywhere at any time but for some, the added peace of mind may be worthwhile.

the card would not be returned as the skimmer on the slot is thin enough for the card to be excepted into to real slot your pin is the recorded by the fake key pad card returned cash withdrawn no suspision.

[SurfRider]

.

I always look for the bright flashing lights around the card slot on an ATM before using it. Normally, the lights are obscured if a skimmer has been attached. If the lights are clearly visible, it's a good chance that the ATM is not being skimmed.

Attached is a PDF that was posted to an earlier skimming thread that goes into more detail on ATM skimming.

.

Skimmer_presentation_v1_230109_ppt_1__01.pdf

[vtjforyou]

Google YES CARD...

[richsilver]

I talked to the fraud rep from Schwab last night and she went ahead and credited my account for the full amount that was taken. Less than 48 hours after I reported the theft Schwab made it good. Excellent service in my book!

[gk10002000]

I am about to roll over my 401-k from this job that I will be leaving soon. I use Etrade as my routine bank with all my current IRAs, and I have a Wells Fargo account for when I need a brick and mortar bank. I have heard so many good things about Schwaub for international dealings that I think they are going to get my $100 K rollover. I don't want all my retirement accounts rolled over into the same bank anyway. Got enough IRA money with Etrade. Glad to hear that Schwab was responsive. Etrade has been lax on overseas issues. Their staff is not well trained in Internatonal things. Kind of funny because the default support staff that takes the first stab at your questions is now mostly outsourced to the Philippines.

[Barack]

gk10002000, As a former Etrade customer and current Schwab customer, you are making wise choice.

Richsilver, Be sure to let TMB know what happened. That security guard I always felt was a little too friendly and I have had to ask him to step back so I could conduct my business.

[PoodMaiDai]

Pattaya seems to be a hot bed for ATM skimming now. I was skimmed there a few years ago and I was totally paying attention after being skimmed in Brazil a few years before that. It really is impossible to see the skimmers, even when you're looking for them.

Must be all those high class tourists who are pouring in now. ;-)

[richsilver]

gk10002000, As a former Etrade customer and current Schwab customer, you are making wise choice.

Richsilver, Be sure to let TMB know what happened. That security guard I always felt was a little too friendly and I have had to ask him to step back so I could conduct my business.

Yes, I have experienced that as well. On a number of occasions, I have seen that guard going up to people using the ATM and trying to help them. I had to shoo him away once. But until now, it never to occurred to me he might be involved in something like this. Now I'm not sure.

I will talk to the bank after Songkran.

E-Trade used to be my primary bank as well before I switched to Schwab, but using their ATM card is no longer free here in Thailand. Schwab totally re-reimburses the 150 fees.

Edited April 15, 2012 by richsilver

[RabC]

I am sorry there was another ATM scam thread recently and if I remember correctly they were also Charles Schwab account holders. Maybe I am calling it for what I see but there certainly is some commonality here, no matter how great you think your bank is. I have lived here nearly 11 years now and not so much as a squeak of fraud......................

[RabC]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/542533-atm-fraud/page__p__5154939__hl__+charles%20+schwab#entry5154939

There you are I wasn't imagining it. Do a search for Charles Schwab and see how many times it appears alongside ATM fraud. Now I am a European so do not know, maybe 99% of USA expats use Charles Schwab, in which case the incidence of fraud aren't too high.............

[SurfRider]

.

"maybe 99% of USA expats use Charles Schwab"

Not likely - Schwab only became popular among a few local Thai based Expats when E-Trade started charging the 1% Visa network ATM fee about a year or so ago. Primarily because of posts promoting Schwab on Thai-Visa.

Both E-Trade and Schwab reimburse ATM fees, but also reserve the right to stop that benefit at any time. Schwab still absorbs the 1% Visa network fee. AEON ATMs don't impose the 150 Baht Thai ATM usury fee for each withdrawal - that's why I recommend always using them, so not to abuse the privilege provided to Expats by Schwab.

Just a guess, but it might have something to do with all the Russians in town. (the fraud occurred in Russia) -- Fortunately, Schwab is very cooperative and efficient about clearing these anomalies. (at least up until now . . . )

.

Edited April 15, 2012 by SurfRider

[RabC]

.

"maybe 99% of USA expats use Charles Schwab"

Not likely - Schwab only became popular among a few local Thai Expats when E-Trade started charging the 1% Visa network ATM fee about a year or so ago. Primarily because of posts promoting Schwab on Thai-Visa.

Both E-Trade and Schwab reimburse ATM fees, but also reserve the right to stop that benefit at any time. Schwab still absorbs the 1% Visa network fee. AEON ATMs don't impose the 150 Baht Thai ATM usury fee for each withdrawal - that's why I recommend always using them, so not to abuse the privilege provided to Expats by Schwab.

Just a guess, but it might have something to do with all the Russians in town. (the fraud occurred in Russia) -- Fortunately, Schwab is very cooperative and efficient about clearing these anomalies. (at least up until now . . . )

.

It may well be our ex Eastern European friends carrying out the fraud but my question is why so many Schwab customers ???

[pauljones]

.

"maybe 99% of USA expats use Charles Schwab"

Not likely - Schwab only became popular among a few local Thai Expats when E-Trade started charging the 1% Visa network ATM fee about a year or so ago. Primarily because of posts promoting Schwab on Thai-Visa.

Both E-Trade and Schwab reimburse ATM fees, but also reserve the right to stop that benefit at any time. Schwab still absorbs the 1% Visa network fee. AEON ATMs don't impose the 150 Baht Thai ATM usury fee for each withdrawal - that's why I recommend always using them, so not to abuse the privilege provided to Expats by Schwab.

Just a guess, but it might have something to do with all the Russians in town. (the fraud occurred in Russia) -- Fortunately, Schwab is very cooperative and efficient about clearing these anomalies. (at least up until now . . . )

.

It may well be our ex Eastern European friends carrying out the fraud but my question is why so many Schwab customers ???

I expect the local police will be looking for these people......

Money to be made.