Usufruct, Is It Possible To Get When Buying House And Then Transfer Ownership To The Wife?

[mark131v]

Hi Guys,

as above we are in the process of buying an house and I was wondering if it is possible for me to get the usefruct from the present owner and then once that is done get the usefruct passed on to the wife from the person who initially sold it to me so that she is in essence now the owner. I understand that you cannot do this as husband and wife but would this way be a legal way of doing this..any advice gratefully received cheers Mark

[Delight]

Some explanation please:

is it possible for me to get the usefruct from the present owner

Q is the house currently subject to a usufruct agreement ?

Q. What is your motive for a future usufruct arrangement? Can I assume that it is linked to a Thai person having to explain the source of their house buying money?

[mark131v]

Some explanation please:

is it possible for me to get the usefruct from the present owner

Q is the house currently subject to a usufruct agreement ?

Q. What is your motive for a future usufruct arrangement? Can I assume that it is linked to a Thai person having to explain the source of their house buying money?

In answer to your questions

We are about to finish paying for the house soon and no it is not under usefruct yet , I am trying to work out if this is a workable option or not

My motive for a future usefruct is it could be a useful way to be able to relax right from the outset without thinking about issues and fall outs in the future, you would be right to assume my wife is Thai though I am not really worried about the money aspect as we have lived abroad for the last few years with a joint account so if push came to shove according to the UK bank it is her money as much as mine

Really what I am after trying to sort out is if this is a workable option or not, If in the future we had a problem I would walk away and no matter what I want my wife and daughter to be sorted out for the long term. If taking out the usefruct with the owner now and then getting her to sign it to my wife is a "legal" option then it is worth thinking about as I understand that once married my wife cannot directly sign an agreement with me as her husband

[chiangmaibruce]

Mark. I think I understand what you are asking and I have wondered this myself.

1. It might well be possible but what would be the process? The owner would want full settlement of contract at the time he/she signed the usufruct paper .... how then to compel him/her to come back to the Land Dept the next day to sign the transfer papers?

2. A wife can enter into a usufruct agreement with her husband but the main perceived danger is that clause in the Civil and Commercial Code stating that one spouse can subsequently rescind agreements earlier entered into with the other. I assume this possible weak link is what you are hoping to avoid. And I say "possible" as according to some legal people it is probably unlikely that a court would overturn a usufruct in this manner without having some more compelling reason to do so.

3. Additionally, in both cases though there is what the law states and what will be accepted by the particular Land dept office you are dealing with

Edited April 13, 2012 by chiangmaibruce

[mark131v]

Mark. I think I understand what you are asking and I have wondered this myself.

1. It might well be possible but what would be the process? The owner would want full settlement of contract at the time he/she signed the usufruct paper .... how then to compel him/her to come back to the Land Dept the next day to sign the transfer papers?

2. A wife can enter into a usufruct agreement with her husband but the main perceived danger is that clause in the Civil and Commercial Code stating that one spouse can subsequently rescind agreements earlier entered into with the other. I assume this possible weak link is what you are hoping to avoid. And I say "possible" as according to some legal people it is probably unlikely that a court would overturn a usufruct in this manner without having some more compelling reason to do so.

3. Additionally, in both cases though there is what the law states and what will be accepted by the particular Land dept office you are dealing with

Hi Changmaibruce,

yep you have pretty much got what I was alluding to, we have been paying the house over a few months and are on good terms with the sellers and they have been straight with us all along, I dont think the logistics of doing this will be that difficult but it is the legal aspect that I was concerned about

I had not realised that a husband and wife could enter a usefruct between them and if that was the case and it was possible then that would be the route I think we would take, as I said before I trust we will never need to put this to the test but it would be a nice insurance type policy and if nothing else it would force us to think calmly about things...cant be a bad thing to take a deep breath and have a chat!

We are down in NaJomtien so I suppose it would be Pattaya land office but to be honest I have not looked into it in any depth yet....

[LennyW]

Simple, buy the house in your wife,s name and then she grants you an Usufruct for life (simple paperwork at the land office), just be aware that in the event of a divorce the Usufruct can be voided by either party.

However, as you have stated here " If in the future we had a problem I would walk away and no matter what I want my wife and daughter to be sorted out for the long term" then this is definitely the best and easiest option for you, because if you "walk away" then the house still belongs to her and always will.

Of course the "seller" would be quite happy to grant an Usufruct to either of you because in the unfortunate event of an accident or illness or something which resulted in your death then the property would revert back to him!!

Edited April 14, 2012 by LennyW

[LivinLOS]

You have a child ??

Put the property in the childs name.. Then lease or usufruct from the child..

The divorce issue is solved, the property is duly owned and needs an additional layer of legal protection against sale until the child is an adult, you have a lifetime or 30 year period of use, and should everything go tits up your going to give it to the wife and child anyway no ??

I guess I am more relaxed than most (despite owning a largish land parcel and having separated from my wife) in that, when I marry someone I do so on the understanding that this partnership comes with a commitment.. If we split I am going to support her, doubly so with kids involved.. I dont need a law court to enforce that role, I would do it willingly. Sure use a usufruct or lease to help with some bargaining issues, to help protect you a little, but at no point did I ever think of any of it as 'mine' its 'ours'.. If you cant have that mindset I would avoid buying under any scheme or system.

Edited April 14, 2012 by LivinLOS

[Delight]

Found this on the net

http://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/usufruct-in-a-thai-marriage.html

[mark131v]

Thanks guys a lot of really good food for thought there

LennyW and LivinLOS your thinking is pretty much the same as mine I know I cant own and if things do go "tits up" I would still want my family sorted no matter what but putting something in place to calm things down cant be a bad thing, putting it in my Daughters name might be an idea but I would need to have a long talk about that though I reckon the wife would have no problem with that, I already accept that all of this is to sort out my family and to try and ensure the best for all of us in the future, Delight and changmaibruce thanks for the links I will check them out!

[seaeagle]

You have a child ??

Put the property in the childs name.. Then lease or usufruct from the child..

The divorce issue is solved, the property is duly owned and needs an additional layer of legal protection against sale until the child is an adult, you have a lifetime or 30 year period of use, and should everything go tits up your going to give it to the wife and child anyway no ??

I guess I am more relaxed than most (despite owning a largish land parcel and having separated from my wife) in that, when I marry someone I do so on the understanding that this partnership comes with a commitment.. If we split I am going to support her, doubly so with kids involved.. I dont need a law court to enforce that role, I would do it willingly. Sure use a usufruct or lease to help with some bargaining issues, to help protect you a little, but at no point did I ever think of any of it as 'mine' its 'ours'.. If you cant have that mindset I would avoid buying under any scheme or system.

Yes, you could put it in the name of a child, but I'm pretty sure "the child" could not then grant either lease or usufruct. Reason is that this would not be in the interests of the child, and the court would protect the child interest above your own.

[chiangmaibruce]

Yes, you could put it in the name of a child, but I'm pretty sure "the child" could not then grant either lease or usufruct. Reason is that this would not be in the interests of the child, and the court would protect the child interest above your own.

1. Minors can't enter into contracts so the matter would need to go to court to resolve, and yes at that point a judge might well consider the interests of the child and any other relevant matters. LivinLos, have you encountered anyone who has actually been able to do what you have suggested?

2. Mark, putting property in the name of a child is a good idea for some people depending on their specific personal circumstances. Be aware though that this approach has its own peculiar strengths and limitations. Suggest you search for some of the many earlier threads on this topic for further details

[surin]

Yes, you could put it in the name of a child, but I'm pretty sure "the child" could not then grant either lease or usufruct. Reason is that this would not be in the interests of the child, and the court would protect the child interest above your own.

1. Minors can't enter into contracts so the matter would need to go to court to resolve, and yes at that point a judge might well consider the interests of the child and any other relevant matters. LivinLos, have you encountered anyone who has actually been able to do what you have suggested?

2. Mark, putting property in the name of a child is a good idea for some people depending on their specific personal circumstances. Be aware though that this approach has its own peculiar strengths and limitations. Suggest you search for some of the many earlier threads on this topic for further details

I had a usufruct on my property when I divorced my wife. My ex wife totally ignored the usufruct and transferred the property to her mother without my knowledge. My ex mother in law had a lawyer send me a letter to quit the property within 15 days. Because of the deceitful way in which all was done...my ex wife moved overseas with my 2 sons by the way, the Judge ordered that I can live on the property where I built 2 large homes, a factory, swimming pool until I die. That the land be transferred back from the ex mother in law and in to my 2 sons names. My sons are 12 and 10 years old. The original title had to show that this had been ordered by the court and no one can change the title to others even if I die until the boys have reached adulthood and can make their own decisions.

By the way, being married under Thai Law gives even us as foreigners 50% of property aquired during the marriage. I was lucky as I feel I got 100%. The ex wife or her family are not permitted on my property without consent.

[chiangmaibruce]

I had a usufruct on my property when I divorced my wife. My ex wife totally ignored the usufruct and transferred the property to her mother without my knowledge. My ex mother in law had a lawyer send me a letter to quit the property within 15 days. Because of the deceitful way in which all was done...my ex wife moved overseas with my 2 sons by the way, the Judge ordered that I can live on the property where I built 2 large homes, a factory, swimming pool until I die. That the land be transferred back from the ex mother in law and in to my 2 sons names. My sons are 12 and 10 years old. The original title had to show that this had been ordered by the court and no one can change the title to others even if I die until the boys have reached adulthood and can make their own decisions.

Thanks for providing a first hand report of the system in action and great to hear you (eventually) had a good outcome. If you don't mind sharing the info, how much did this situation end up costing you in terms of legal expenses?

[surin]

I had a usufruct on my property when I divorced my wife. My ex wife totally ignored the usufruct and transferred the property to her mother without my knowledge. My ex mother in law had a lawyer send me a letter to quit the property within 15 days. Because of the deceitful way in which all was done...my ex wife moved overseas with my 2 sons by the way, the Judge ordered that I can live on the property where I built 2 large homes, a factory, swimming pool until I die. That the land be transferred back from the ex mother in law and in to my 2 sons names. My sons are 12 and 10 years old. The original title had to show that this had been ordered by the court and no one can change the title to others even if I die until the boys have reached adulthood and can make their own decisions.

Thanks for providing a first hand report of the system in action and great to hear you (eventually) had a good outcome. If you don't mind sharing the info, how much did this situation end up costing you in terms of legal expenses?

Less than 100k baht