Americans Abandoning Citizenship In Record Numbers Due To Government Tax/Fine Harrassment

[necronx99]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

Yes but that was because the US had a arm to twist with the Swiss

The threat being if they do not divulge the info they cannot have a branch in the US.

Perhaps even disallow transfers from the US to their banks?

To that end & in regards to Thailand the only bank the US would have that kind of persuasive powers with

would probably be Bangkok Bank because they wish to keep their New York Branch open.

I am not so sure smaller banks like Ayudhya would have any reason to comply as it is more work for them &

they have nothing to lose by saying no thanks

It's more insidious than that. America has no hang ups blackmailing third parties to obtain compliance. If they needed KASITHBK or someone to. Comply and had no dire t leaverage they go after their contacts and partners. MasterCard and visa would cease any relationship as would correspondant banks. Pressure would be put on swift and the ATM networks etc the local bank would very quickly find out that is now a very local bank indeed

Directors would be put on watch and no fly lists, the options are endless

[Naam]

Naam

How would you go about determining if people are actually receiving a Paraguay citizenship and a passport after three years versus filing and nothing ever happening. I don’t want to piss away three years waiting for something to happen and then find out it isn’t going to happen.

I should mention that this passport would be for my wife who is also a US citizen. I already have dual citizenship by descendent, but may consider having dual dual passports. But I don’t want her left with being stuck in the US if it turns turtle and I’m no longer around. Looking for a passport that doesn’t take too long to get and where you don’t have to spend nine months or more a year until you get it. Also prefer not to be in a cold climate. There are a lot more things to consider but I won’t cover them here.

Regards BT

fast track citizenships are available BT but they cost a bundle. based on prior private contacts between you and me i'd say your problem can be solved in a straight and legal way and without shelling out money unnecessarily.

will PM you shortly as my dogs are begging for a drive and an hour or two of fun and fried squid at a secluded beach.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Naam

How would you go about determining if people are actually receiving a Paraguay citizenship and a passport after three years versus filing and nothing ever happening. I don’t want to piss away three years waiting for something to happen and then find out it isn’t going to happen.

I should mention that this passport would be for my wife who is also a US citizen. I already have dual citizenship by descendent, but may consider having dual dual passports. But I don’t want her left with being stuck in the US if it turns turtle and I’m no longer around. Looking for a passport that doesn’t take too long to get and where you don’t have to spend nine months or more a year until you get it. Also prefer not to be in a cold climate. There are a lot more things to consider but I won’t cover them here.

Regards BT

fast track citizenships are available BT but they cost a bundle. based on prior private contacts between you and me i'd say your problem can be solved in a straight and legal way and without shelling out money unnecessarily.

will PM you shortly as my dogs are begging for a drive and an hour or two of fun and fried squid at a secluded beach.

Thanks for that Naam, look forward to your PM later.

[Shurup]

I think you can buy a Cambodian passport for $50K.

offers are floating around for €UR 20k. but if the Cambodian passport says e.g.

name: Bubba or Hank or Joe

place of birth: Tulsa, Oklahoma or Boise, Idaho

the banker will smile and shake his head.

Your birth place doesn't necessarily mean you aren't a citizen on another country.

[Jingthing]

I thought the USA was THE country that everyone in the world wants to immigrate to? That's what our cousins across the Pond keep telling us - loudly

Probably the vast majority of Americans do believe that and we are taught that from childhood. It's a bit twisted and explains the negative feelings (and treatment) expat Americans often get. We're off script.

[dekestone]

I thought the USA was THE country that everyone in the world wants to immigrate to? That's what our cousins across the Pond keep telling us - loudly

The link posted by the OP says that 1800 US citizens renounced their citizenship.

In 2011, 694,193 foreign nationals over the age of 18 became US citizens, 9246 from the United Kingdom. Get it, cousin?

http://www.dhs.gov/x...atz_fr_2011.pdf

Edited April 21, 2012 by dekestone

[Jingthing]

Yes, of course lots of immigrants as it is a nation of immigrants (even the Indians are from Asia ) but the myth is that it is the dream of everyone in the world except for the "terrorists" who hate our freedom . This all is sad because it feeds into even more destructive myths such as the U.S. having the best health care system in the world, when in reality among "advanced" countries, it has basically the worst.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

JT

Thanks for that. The problem with photos and videos is no smell and they don't typically take photos of piles of trash etc. But being able to accomplish it in a bit over two years and only having to spend 6 months a year there has a lot of appeal. I understand the traffic is much like thailand but more like bumper cars. And they have a bad habit of crowding you, invading your space if you will. On the plus side it is a booming economy and they say friendly. Do you think it is worth a visit?

Is Lima worth a visit? I would say yes for sure but again I doubt you will be inspired to want to live there. It's a quirky choice really. Compared to Buenos Aires which understandably seduces so many foreigners and is so popular with expats. Edited April 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

I thought the USA was THE country that everyone in the world wants to immigrate to? That's what our cousins across the Pond keep telling us - loudly

The link posted by the OP says that 1800 US citizens renounced their citizenship.

In 2011, 694,193 foreign nationals over the age of 18 became US citizens, 9246 from the United Kingdom. Get it, cousin?

http://www.dhs.gov/x...atz_fr_2011.pdf

[Time Traveller]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

for the record:

-until now no names / account details of U.S. clients where handed over by UBS. i don't deny that it will happen sooner or later.

-the IRS can only get details of assets linked to U.S. citizens. unlinking/detaching assets is the game. the latter is not easy and it gets more and more difficult with every day that passes, but it is not impossible...

example:

-if a U.S. citizen liquidates his assets and uses the cash to buy his Thai girlfriend a bar in Pattaya or Phuket or builds a mansion for his in-laws in Nakhon Nowhere the IRS is a toothless tiger

Well it's not just US citizens, but also permanent residents ( I would guess any tax resident in the US could be targeted by IRS for tax on their global assets is possible). Secondly, while you are right if you have your assets in someone else's (a non-US national) name then those assets are out of the IRS's target but I think you'll find that the Gift taxes apply when a US national happens to pass on assets to another person.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Time Traveller

[FarangBuddha]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

for the record:

-until now no names / account details of U.S. clients where handed over by UBS. i don't deny that it will happen sooner or later.

-the IRS can only get details of assets linked to U.S. citizens. unlinking/detaching assets is the game. the latter is not easy and it gets more and more difficult with every day that passes, but it is not impossible...

example:

-if a U.S. citizen liquidates his assets and uses the cash to buy his Thai girlfriend a bar in Pattaya or Phuket or builds a mansion for his in-laws in Nakhon Nowhere the IRS is a toothless tiger

Agree, another vehicle is to assemble a portfolio of Thai real-property assets (either in one's own name or in a corporate structure) and live off the rental income. The USA tax authorities would find it next to impossible to find/trace such assets/income. It can also be run as a cash business, with minimal to no official records making it virtually impossible to tax in any case.

[Time Traveller]

Please read about Gift Tax, before saying

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

for the record:

-until now no names / account details of U.S. clients where handed over by UBS. i don't deny that it will happen sooner or later.

-the IRS can only get details of assets linked to U.S. citizens. unlinking/detaching assets is the game. the latter is not easy and it gets more and more difficult with every day that passes, but it is not impossible...

example:

-if a U.S. citizen liquidates his assets and uses the cash to buy his Thai girlfriend a bar in Pattaya or Phuket or builds a mansion for his in-laws in Nakhon Nowhere the IRS is a toothless tiger

Agree, another vehicle is to assemble a portfolio of Thai real-property assets (either in one's own name or in a corporate structure) and live off the rental income. The USA tax authorities would find it next to impossible to find/trace such assets/income. It can also be run as a cash business, with minimal to no official records making it virtually impossible to tax in any case.

Um, I guess you've never heard about Gift Tax ?

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=164872,00.html

[Naam]

Well it's not just US citizens, but also permanent residents ( I would guess any tax resident in the US could be targeted by IRS for tax on their global assets is possible). Secondly, while you are right if you have your assets in someone else's (a non-US national) name then those assets are out of the IRS's target but I think you'll find that the Gift taxes apply when a US national happens to pass on assets to another person.

of course gift tax applies when assets above a certain value are given aways. but last time i checked it's the one who receives the gift who is taxed and not the donor. in the unlikely event that the IRS wants to tax the donor there are many ways to spend any amount of money instead of "gifting" it.

[Naam]

I think you can buy a Cambodian passport for $50K.

offers are floating around for €UR 20k. but if the Cambodian passport says e.g.

name: Bubba or Hank or Joe

place of birth: Tulsa, Oklahoma or Boise, Idaho

the banker will smile and shake his head.

Your birth place doesn't necessarily mean you aren't a citizen on another country.

you know that and i know that. but neither your nor my opinion matters. it's the banker's opinion that matters. he decides whether to open a bank account or not.

[FarangBuddha]

Please read about Gift Tax, before saying

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

for the record:

-until now no names / account details of U.S. clients where handed over by UBS. i don't deny that it will happen sooner or later.

-the IRS can only get details of assets linked to U.S. citizens. unlinking/detaching assets is the game. the latter is not easy and it gets more and more difficult with every day that passes, but it is not impossible...

example:

-if a U.S. citizen liquidates his assets and uses the cash to buy his Thai girlfriend a bar in Pattaya or Phuket or builds a mansion for his in-laws in Nakhon Nowhere the IRS is a toothless tiger

Agree, another vehicle is to assemble a portfolio of Thai real-property assets (either in one's own name or in a corporate structure) and live off the rental income. The USA tax authorities would find it next to impossible to find/trace such assets/income. It can also be run as a cash business, with minimal to no official records making it virtually impossible to tax in any case.

Um, I guess you've never heard about Gift Tax ?

http://www.irs.gov/b...=164872,00.html

I don't follow you...what does assembling an income producing property portfolio in Thailand have to do with federal gift taxes?

[phuketrichard]

The US Passport Act of 1926 is an obscure piece of legislation that was enacted decades ago when the idea of passports starting catching fire around the world.

Subsequently absorbed into US Code Title 22, the law was originally intended to authorize and issue passports for US citizens to travel abroad.

Several years ago, the law was modified to provide the Secretary of State with the authority to revoke or deny a passport to any US citizen convicted of engaging in immoral acts with minors overseas.

Until now, this has been the only instance of excluding a US citizen from travel abroad. But if Senator Barbara Boxer gets her way, there's going to be one more.

As part of Senate Bill 1813 (known as MAP-21), Congress has inserted language that would oblige the Secretary of State to revoke or deny a passport to any US citizen that the IRS Commissioner deems as having 'seriously delinquent tax debt.'

For the purposes of MAP-21, 'seriously delinquent tax debt' is defined as an amount in excess of $50,000 in which a notice of lien or levy has been filed in public records.

Bear in mind, this is strictly an administrative procedure; there is no due process. By comparison, even pedophiles go in front of a judge before losing their passports.

Something is wrong with this picture.

I have heard this applies to student loans not paid back as well,

Edited April 22, 2012 by phuketrichard

[ilyushin]

Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporations/article/0,,id=236667,00.html

Certain U.S. taxpayers holding specified foreign financial assets with an aggregate value exceeding $50,000 will report information about those assets on new Form 8938, which must be attached to the taxpayer’s annual income tax return. Higher asset thresholds apply to U.S. taxpayers who file a joint tax return or who reside abroad (see below).

Form 8938 reporting applies for specified foreign financial assets in which the taxpayer has an interest in taxable years starting after March 18, 2010. For most individual taxpayers, this means they will start filing Form 8938 with their 2011 income tax return to be filed this coming tax filing season.

Upon issuance of regulations, FATCA may require reporting by specified domestic entities. For now, only specified individuals are required to file Form 8938.

Yesterday, I met with an officer from a Thai bank and she mentioned to me that the US government is pressuring Thai banks to sign an agreement to identify US citizens and green card holder accounts in Thailand. She said that it would all be in place after about 2 years. FATCA is expected to deduct taxes directly from accounts. It is an administrative nightmare, but will be a reality soon.

Not too worried as I deal with my taxes, but some will certainly have problems.

Edited April 22, 2012 by ilyushin

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The tax compliance act — the newer law — asks foreign financial institutions such as banks, hedge funds, and private equity funds to provide the IRS with information on U.S. clients.

If you are American and want to effectively escape the IRS, you have to be wealthy enough to pay smart tax/cpa advisors and do it right.

If you are poor you may escape their radar, but when they catch up with you they will truly make your life miserable and no one will have any sympathy for you.

Being overseas you are basically exempt from paying unless your total income is over $90K - I bet very few people worried about these issues fall in that category.

You just have to file each year and there's no problem listing all your foreign bank accounts, being honest 100% will keep you out of trouble, anything else is just asking for major headaches down the road.

For those claiming "it will impossible for them to find out" such advice may be in practice true today, but not necessarily tomorrow - the trend is for greater and greater transparency all around the world - and all it takes is one knowledgable and disgruntled "friend" or family member to land you in jail.

Face it the US tax burden is among the lightest in the world, IMO total misdirection of resources to structure your life around trying to avoid it.

Edited April 22, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[meand]

JT

Thanks for that. The problem with photos and videos is no smell and they don't typically take photos of piles of trash etc. But being able to accomplish it in a bit over two years and only having to spend 6 months a year there has a lot of appeal. I understand the traffic is much like thailand but more like bumper cars. And they have a bad habit of crowding you, invading your space if you will. On the plus side it is a booming economy and they say friendly. Do you think it is worth a visit?

If you were to search "Miraflores" it will be worlds different. This is like (one of) Lima's safe and beautiful oasis.

Peru's advantages: great surfing, abundant uncrowded coastline, cost of living, nightlife, food, women (try a sidetrip to tarapoto if you want your socks blown off), people, history/culture, numerous in country travel options (much like Thailand).

Peru's negatives: you pay almost US prices to live in a neighborhood like Miraflores (restaurants, apartments, everything), no Mexican food.

As you can see, I like it there Definitely worth a visit. Places like Trujillo are very charming, and as you go further north there are warm water party beaches like Mancora etc. The food is out of this world -- just not enough good things can be said about it, think "Ceviche and a cold beer".... it is just blissfully good. The fruit alone is worth a visit -- try a pineapple from the jungle and you will never be able to eat another pineapple again without thinking of it... that good. There are three main types of food there: jungle, coastal (eg Lima) and mountain (Cuzco), so there is a lot of potential variety.

Having said all that, I don't know anything about the tax implications

Edited April 22, 2012 by meand

[Naam]

The tax compliance act — the newer law — asks foreign financial institutions such as banks, hedge funds, and private equity funds to provide the IRS with information on U.S. clients.

If you are American and want to effectively escape the IRS, you have to be wealthy enough to pay smart tax/cpa advisors and do it right.

If you are poor you may escape their radar, but when they catch up with you they will truly make your life miserable and no one will have any sympathy for you.

Being overseas you are basically exempt from paying unless your total income is over $90K - I bet very few people worried about these issues fall in that category.

You just have to file each year and there's no problem listing all your foreign bank accounts, being honest 100% will keep you out of trouble, anything else is just asking for major headaches down the road.

For those claiming "it will impossible for them to find out" such advice may be in practice true today, but not necessarily tomorrow - the trend is for greater and greater transparency all around the world - and all it takes is one knowledgable and disgruntled "friend" or family member to land you in jail.

Face it the US tax burden is among the lightest in the world, IMO total misdirection of resources to structure your life around trying to avoid it.

"Being overseas you are basically exempt from..." nothing and pay taxes like any American living in the U.S. if your income is generated by investments.

[FarangBuddha]

The tax compliance act — the newer law — asks foreign financial institutions such as banks, hedge funds, and private equity funds to provide the IRS with information on U.S. clients.

If you are American and want to effectively escape the IRS, you have to be wealthy enough to pay smart tax/cpa advisors and do it right.

If you are poor you may escape their radar, but when they catch up with you they will truly make your life miserable and no one will have any sympathy for you.

Being overseas you are basically exempt from paying unless your total income is over $90K - I bet very few people worried about these issues fall in that category.

You just have to file each year and there's no problem listing all your foreign bank accounts, being honest 100% will keep you out of trouble, anything else is just asking for major headaches down the road.

For those claiming "it will impossible for them to find out" such advice may be in practice true today, but not necessarily tomorrow - the trend is for greater and greater transparency all around the world - and all it takes is one knowledgable and disgruntled "friend" or family member to land you in jail.

Face it the US tax burden is among the lightest in the world, IMO total misdirection of resources to structure your life around trying to avoid it.

<deleted>...what's low about 50% total tax burden (federal, state, local, property, payroll, excise)? If one is overseas, there is often also local VAT and income too if employed! And for what, NADA...not ever free passport passport pages and certainly not Medicare.

[dekestone]

Yesterday, I met with an officer from a Thai bank and she mentioned to me that the US government is pressuring Thai banks to sign an agreement to identify US citizens and green card holder accounts in Thailand. She said that it would all be in place after about 2 years. FATCA is expected to deduct taxes directly from accounts. It is an administrative nightmare, but will be a reality soon.

Not too worried as I deal with my taxes, but some will certainly have problems.

Thanks, ilyushin, this is what I was looking for: actual first-hand knowledge of what Thai banks are doing re. FATCA.

[DagonKhan]

Interesting article from Reuters on this subject, talks about the problems Americans are having with bank accounts overseas etc. Link here:- http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/16/us-usa-citizen-renounce-idUSBRE83F0UF20120416

The part of the article that interested me the most was the bit at the bottom (WOMEN IN A TOUGH SPOT). It is quite shocking that a Government has that power over it's citizens and even more shocking (given all we're led to believe) that the U.S. government is the one that is doing it. Makes me wonder how many of those who renounce their citizenship are women.

[steelepulse]

I know an expat that has been in Asia for over 30 years and he traded in his US passport for an Irish passport and now enjoys not having to pay thousands of dollars in tax annually to a country he hasn't lived in for 3 decades. He did the trade for economic reasons and felt the Irish passport served his needs for travel, taxes, etc.

[flying]

Also from the article Dagon linked....

But those of more modest means renounce, too. They say leaving America is about more than money; it's about privacy and red tape.

[Naam]

Yesterday, I met with an officer from a Thai bank and she mentioned to me that the US government is pressuring Thai banks to sign an agreement to identify US citizens and green card holder accounts in Thailand. She said that it would all be in place after about 2 years. FATCA is expected to deduct taxes directly from accounts. It is an administrative nightmare, but will be a reality soon.

Not too worried as I deal with my taxes, but some will certainly have problems.

Thanks, ilyushin, this is what I was looking for: actual first-hand knowledge of what Thai banks are doing re. FATCA.

"FATCA" deducting taxes = rubbish² !

[Jingthing]

...

If you were to search "Miraflores" it will be worlds different. This is like (one of) Lima's safe and beautiful oasis.

...

Miraflores? Yes, cool place and that's where I stayed. Agree the food is amazing. Like I said, I recommend a visit. I just don't think it will become an expat magnet. That might be a feature to some. BTW, Miraflores isn't that safe. The American friend I was traveling with got mugged in Miraflores. In Miraflores cafes the custom is attach any bags you have with you to ... the furniture. The infamous Dutchman Van Sloot murdered a Peruvian girl in, you guessed it ... Miraflores. But compared to most neighborhoods in Lima, yes "very" safe. Edited April 22, 2012 by Jingthing

[Naam]

Miraflores is also an excellent choice to hide from the IRS. one sells all assets and takes the cash (preferably in small used notes) to Miraflores, buys a bar which doesn't make any profit and each april fills a '1040' with a lot of zeroes before mailing. should an agent of the IRS turn up he is served free drinks... et voilà!

[ilyushin]

Yesterday, I met with an officer from a Thai bank and she mentioned to me that the US government is pressuring Thai banks to sign an agreement to identify US citizens and green card holder accounts in Thailand. She said that it would all be in place after about 2 years. FATCA is expected to deduct taxes directly from accounts. It is an administrative nightmare, but will be a reality soon.

Not too worried as I deal with my taxes, but some will certainly have problems.

Thanks, ilyushin, this is what I was looking for: actual first-hand knowledge of what Thai banks are doing re. FATCA.

"FATCA" deducting taxes = rubbish² !

This is what the bank officer that is dealing with FATCA arrangements has informed me. I think the banks will be responsible for reporting and collecting the taxes on the US citizens. She mentioned they are establishing a sysetm to identify the citizens and green card holders. Why go to all the trouble to identify the accounts if they will not take some kind of action? Thai taxes are automatically deducted on interest so the system could follow that template and then funnel the funds to the FATCA accounts. I don't put anything past the US government at this point.

Wage a bet on rubbish?

[Time Traveller]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

Yes but that was because the US had a arm to twist with the Swiss

The threat being if they do not divulge the info they cannot have a branch in the US.

Perhaps even disallow transfers from the US to their banks?

To that end & in regards to Thailand the only bank the US would have that kind of persuasive powers with

would probably be Bangkok Bank because they wish to keep their New York Branch open.

I am not so sure smaller banks like Ayudhya would have any reason to comply as it is more work for them &

they have nothing to lose by saying no thanks

Perhaps, but then what happens when Citibank or Bank of America decide they want to buy half of a local Thai bank. Do you think they are going to just ignore the fact they have x number of American account holders? In fact, aren't GE capital a major shareholder in Bank of Ayudhya? Justify it anyway you want, the law says American taxpayers are required to report their foreign financial institution accounts each year. Failure to do that might go unnoticed, but if at some time in the future you might get caught then you'll definitely have some explaining to do.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Time Traveller