How Strict Are The Working Laws Here

[petercallen]

Commercial or not really is not the issue. Think of all kind of volunteer activities, all not allowed without workpermit.

The volunteer tourist police did not require a work permit awhile back

You were only supposed to assist the police with tourist problems but

usually ended up doing the whole job yourself

[petercallen]

About how strict the law is,my guess is,that as long as you "work" with something that belongs to you/your wife,the application of the law is not so strict.Unless,of course,someone is out to get you.But I could be wrong,as stated in some posts.What I want to know is,what is the penalty for breaking this law? Deportation? Jail? Paying a fine? What? Has it actually happened to anyone reading this?

When i was with the VTP i was working in the Patong office one day

and 2 plain clothes Thai police who had expensive watches and gold jewelry

brought a Israeli guy in accused of working in his wife's tour booth by Thais

who had a tour booth near by

They questioned him for ages, he did not take the hint and was locked up

i do not know if he was deported

[LivinginKata]

As already mentioned here these sort of 'problems' usually only occur when a report has been made to Immigration and the authorities are duty bound to follow up. These reports are usually made by business competition, disgruntled neighbors or staff, general disputes, and the like. If you look deeper into previous high profile cases you will see that's the case.

[QED]

There is a farang guy where I live who regularly goes along the beach searching through the bins and filling his sack with plastic bottles, cans etc. This is highly embarassing if I take staff or clients for a meal in one of the beach restaurants and they see him. Do you think he could get done for working without a WP?

[stevenl]

Commercial or not really is not the issue. Think of all kind of volunteer activities, all not allowed without workpermit.

The volunteer tourist police did not require a work permit awhile back

You were only supposed to assist the police with tourist problems but

usually ended up doing the whole job yourself

Thanks for pointing out the exception Peter.

[stevenl]

There is a farang guy where I live who regularly goes along the beach searching through the bins and filling his sack with plastic bottles, cans etc. This is highly embarassing if I take staff or clients for a meal in one of the beach restaurants and they see him. Do you think he could get done for working without a WP?

Why would that be embarrassing?

[QED]

There is a farang guy where I live who regularly goes along the beach searching through the bins and filling his sack with plastic bottles, cans etc. This is highly embarassing if I take staff or clients for a meal in one of the beach restaurants and they see him. Do you think he could get done for working without a WP?

Why would that be embarrassing?

So, it's you?

[stevenl]

There is a farang guy where I live who regularly goes along the beach searching through the bins and filling his sack with plastic bottles, cans etc. This is highly embarassing if I take staff or clients for a meal in one of the beach restaurants and they see him. Do you think he could get done for working without a WP?

Why would that be embarrassing?

So, it's you?

No, it is not me. But again, why would that be embarrassing for you? Vicarious shame?

Edited April 19, 2012 by stevenl

[KarenBravo]

Racial pride?

[FlyByNights]

My perspective is that it all depends who is around you, and also like one of the members said above, it's basically who you piss off.

I’ve seen it boil down to jealousy and greed a majority of the time.

If you are working and generating any type of "income" while "living" here in Thailand, it's always best to have all your documentation in order.

And if you’re doing life's everyday routines, just like all other cultures, washing the dishes, pulling weeds, taking out the trash, or even sweeping your own floor, this is not going to get you busted by the tourist police or any type of immigration officials.

They should be ashamed of themselves if they if they were to come challenge you in your own home!

If you are living at your place of business, and actually generating income while you are there by providing some type of service or "help" without proper documentation, you will get in trouble if they catch you. Behind the bar is a big one around these parts

Keep it simple, if you want to work get your crap together, and make sure you do what the law requires .Get your work permits visas, and licenses in order

If you do happen to get in trouble, better have a good phone number of an intelligent Thai friend that can vouch for your actions, and also a little bit of cash set aside.

BTW: It will help greatly if this Thai friend wasn’t bar related, regardless if it’s your girlfriend or not.

Be aware of your surroundings at all times, and try to be a good Farang.

[NamKangMan]

As already mentioned here these sort of 'problems' usually only occur when a report has been made to Immigration and the authorities are duty bound to follow up. These reports are usually made by business competition, disgruntled neighbors or staff, general disputes, and the like. If you look deeper into previous high profile cases you will see that's the case.

I agree. However, if I am Thai, and own a lawn mowing business here, if I make the telephone call to Immigration and dob in a farang who I see mowing a lawn here, what will happen? In a previous post, we only have an "opinion" or an "interpretation" of the law from an interview with an Officer of the Employment Department published in the PG. I don't think you can rely on that, at Thai law.

I have an elderly farang friend with a bad hip. I carry his shopping bags for him. The problem is, where does "friendship" end and working ilegally starts in Thailand?

He lives in a condo, but if he lived in a house and asked me to mow his lawn for him as well, I think I would have to decline. There would be a risk of me breaching the law here because it's his place, not mine, and it seems unclear if you can even mow your own lawns here with absolute certainty you will not be in breach.

[Sophon]

The volunteer tourist police did not require a work permit awhile back

You were only supposed to assist the police with tourist problems but

usually ended up doing the whole job yourself

Of course they required a work permit, but the police see themselves as above the law. And unless there is some kind of crack down ordered from higher in the food chain, no-one is going to go after the police.

Here is a quote from Chiang Mai Citylife from the person in charge of work permits in Chiang Mai in connection with the much publicized case of musicians being arrested for jamming:

Then there is the problem of confusion amongst the government agencies themselves. Ruchuachai claims that his staff are all quite sensible and are not out to get people for minor infractions, but says "that cannot be said about other departments who may have another agenda". He even goes so far as to mention the tourist police in Chiang Mai, who employ foreign 'volunteers' who are technically working without official work permits, "please tell them that that is illegal! They need to come and report to me.

He also mentions people working on their home:

If you work at home it's none of my business, gardening, sweeping, painting, it's all fine. It's when you perform activities which help someone (or yourself) earn an income, that is not OK.

Sophon

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sophon

[stevenl]

As already mentioned here these sort of 'problems' usually only occur when a report has been made to Immigration and the authorities are duty bound to follow up. These reports are usually made by business competition, disgruntled neighbors or staff, general disputes, and the like. If you look deeper into previous high profile cases you will see that's the case.

I agree. However, if I am Thai, and own a lawn mowing business here, if I make the telephone call to Immigration and dob in a farang who I see mowing a lawn here, what will happen? In a previous post, we only have an "opinion" or an "interpretation" of the law from an interview with an Officer of the Employment Department published in the PG. I don't think you can rely on that, at Thai law.

I have an elderly farang friend with a bad hip. I carry his shopping bags for him. The problem is, where does "friendship" end and working ilegally starts in Thailand?

He lives in a condo, but if he lived in a house and asked me to mow his lawn for him as well, I think I would have to decline. There would be a risk of me breaching the law here because it's his place, not mine, and it seems unclear if you can even mow your own lawns here with absolute certainty you will not be in breach.

I think it is all very clear.

Yes, you can mow your own lawn, no problem. Yes, you can mow your friend's lawn, but you do run a (small) risk.

[Bosse137]

My perspective is that it all depends who is around you, and also like one of the members said above, it's basically who you piss off.

I’ve seen it boil down to jealousy and greed a majority of the time.

If you are working and generating any type of "income" while "living" here in Thailand, it's always best to have all your documentation in order.

And if you’re doing life's everyday routines, just like all other cultures, washing the dishes, pulling weeds, taking out the trash, or even sweeping your own floor, this is not going to get you busted by the tourist police or any type of immigration officials.

They should be ashamed of themselves if they if they were to come challenge you in your own home!

If you are living at your place of business, and actually generating income while you are there by providing some type of service or "help" without proper documentation, you will get in trouble if they catch you. Behind the bar is a big one around these parts

Keep it simple, if you want to work get your crap together, and make sure you do what the law requires .Get your work permits visas, and licenses in order

If you do happen to get in trouble, better have a good phone number of an intelligent Thai friend that can vouch for your actions, and also a little bit of cash set aside.

BTW: It will help greatly if this Thai friend wasn’t bar related, regardless if it’s your girlfriend or not.

Be aware of your surroundings at all times, and try to be a good Farang.

I agree with what you are writing but sometimes it is not that simple,If,for example,your wife has some kind of farming,be it rubbertrees,sugarcane,rice or whatever,and it is difficult to find labourers and/ or the plot is not all that big,she has to do the work herself,right,while you just sit on the sideline,drinking a beer.(Well,not neceserily..) My serious question to you,who seems to have some grip on this matter,is whether you think you can get a workpermit to help her?! Anyone out there,any experience of something like that.And a follow-up question,if the answer is yes,or probably,what about your current "non imm O visa,retirement",do workpermit go alongside thar onè? Edited April 19, 2012 by Bosse137

[LivinginKata]

]<snip>And a follow-up question,if the answer is yes,or probably,what about your current "non imm O visa,retirement",do workpermit go alongside thar onè?

No, no way. Condition of retirement visa/extensions is that you cannot work. I know cos I had a retirement visa/extension and then applied for a Work Period. Next time I applied for my annual extension, Immigration would not accept my application. Had to revert to married to Thai extension option.

[NamKangMan]

As already mentioned here these sort of 'problems' usually only occur when a report has been made to Immigration and the authorities are duty bound to follow up. These reports are usually made by business competition, disgruntled neighbors or staff, general disputes, and the like. If you look deeper into previous high profile cases you will see that's the case.

I agree. However, if I am Thai, and own a lawn mowing business here, if I make the telephone call to Immigration and dob in a farang who I see mowing a lawn here, what will happen? In a previous post, we only have an "opinion" or an "interpretation" of the law from an interview with an Officer of the Employment Department published in the PG. I don't think you can rely on that, at Thai law.

I have an elderly farang friend with a bad hip. I carry his shopping bags for him. The problem is, where does "friendship" end and working ilegally starts in Thailand?

He lives in a condo, but if he lived in a house and asked me to mow his lawn for him as well, I think I would have to decline. There would be a risk of me breaching the law here because it's his place, not mine, and it seems unclear if you can even mow your own lawns here with absolute certainty you will not be in breach.

I think it is all very clear.

Yes, you can mow your own lawn, no problem. Yes, you can mow your friend's lawn, but you do run a (small) risk.

Well, here we go again. You made a similar post in a recent thread about renting a motorbike here.

So, are you saying the risk exists, but don't worry about it?

Are we being "legal" or not? Are you saying break the law and don't worry about it because the chance of getting caught is very slim, or are you saying you are not breaking the law and go ahead????

I don't think it's very clear at all. I have stated I would be prepared to take the risk on mowing my own lawn, but would not take the risk on mowing anyone else's lawn.

Let's say I was a motorbike mechanic by trade. I would fix my own motorbike, but I'm pretty sure there would be trouble if I was to start fixing friend's motorbikes. (no payment involed)

Perhaps one of the legal firms who sponsor Thaivisa could make a comment. I think we all agree that we are talking about no payment being involved, but is it correct, at Thai law, to say you are legal to work on any property you own Eg. house, motorbike etc but not on anyone else's, even the property of friends and relatives?

I notice this question has come up a lot in the past with people volunteering, or being voted in, to be the secretary of management of their condo block for maintainence etc and payment of accounts. They own a condo in the block, but are perfroming a task for other foreigners.

I know TIT and the law here is very ambiguous, especially for foreigners. I'm more leaning to the side of if there is any doubt/risk - just don't do it.

Edited April 19, 2012 by NamKangMan

[Bosse137]

]<snip>And a follow-up question,if the answer is yes,or probably,what about your current "non imm O visa,retirement",do workpermit go alongside thar onè?

No, no way. Condition of retirement visa/extensions is that you cannot work. I know cos I had a retirement visa/extension and then applied for a Work Period. Next time I applied for my annual extension, Immigration would not accept my application. Had to revert to married to Thai extension option.

Thanks for your answer!O.K.,that is what I thought,retirement and work simultaniously not logic,but about logic in Thailand......But lets say,that one do not care about the retirement visa,is it possible to get a WP on the grounds of working in your gf`s farm,year after year? But then again,farmwork is also tabu for farang,is it not,,?

[NamKangMan]

]<snip>And a follow-up question,if the answer is yes,or probably,what about your current "non imm O visa,retirement",do workpermit go alongside thar onè?

No, no way. Condition of retirement visa/extensions is that you cannot work. I know cos I had a retirement visa/extension and then applied for a Work Period. Next time I applied for my annual extension, Immigration would not accept my application. Had to revert to married to Thai extension option.

It funny how being married to a Thai is not considered "work" here, when it's quite the opposite.

Edited April 19, 2012 by NamKangMan

[LivinginKata]

Thanks for your answer!O.K.,that is what I thought,retirement and work simultaniously not logic,but about logic in Thailand......But lets say,that one do not care about the retirement visa,is it possible to get a WP on the grounds of working in your gf`s farm,year after year? But then again,farmwork is also tabu for farang,is it not,,?

GF no. Unless you go to the bother/expense of making a company and that's not a viable option in your case. If you were legally married then that's another matter. I believe (?? never tested this) that if your Thai wife has a business then there is a method you could apply for a Work Permit on the back of Thai Marriage/Wife's business. Without all the Thai company paperwork/expense.

[Shot]

Thanks for your answer!O.K.,that is what I thought,retirement and work simultaniously not logic,but about logic in Thailand......But lets say,that one do not care about the retirement visa,is it possible to get a WP on the grounds of working in your gf`s farm,year after year? But then again,farmwork is also tabu for farang,is it not,,?

GF no. Unless you go to the bother/expense of making a company and that's not a viable option in your case. If you were legally married then that's another matter. I believe (?? never tested this) that if your Thai wife has a business then there is a method you could apply for a Work Permit on the back of Thai Marriage/Wife's business. Without all the Thai company paperwork/expense.

So, if the guy stocking the cooler was married to the owner, and had a work permit, that would be ok? Possibly without all the red tape of a Thai Co.?

Does anyone know for sure? Or are there any for sures?

[stevenl]

I don't think it's very clear at all. I have stated I would be prepared to take the risk on mowing my own lawn, but would not take the risk on mowing anyone else's lawn.

You daredevil.

Your interpretation of my posts leaves a lot to be desired.

[LivinginKata]

So, if the guy stocking the cooler was married to the owner, and had a work permit, that would be ok? Possibly without all the red tape of a Thai Co.?

Does anyone know for sure? Or are there any for sures?

Why don't you pose this question here ---> http://www.thaivisa....d-work-permits/

///edit// I checked and there is already a similar topic http://www.thaivisa....hai#entry921658

[NamKangMan]

I don't think it's very clear at all. I have stated I would be prepared to take the risk on mowing my own lawn, but would not take the risk on mowing anyone else's lawn.

You daredevil.

Your interpretation of my posts leaves a lot to be desired.

No, your post leaves a lot to be desired. :)

[Bosse137]

So, if the guy stocking the cooler was married to the owner, and had a work permit, that would be ok? Possibly without all the red tape of a Thai Co.?

Does anyone know for sure? Or are there any for sures?

Why don't you pose this question here ---> http://www.thaivisa....d-work-permits/

///edit// I checked and there is already a similar topic http://www.thaivisa....hai#entry921658

Thanks,very helpful indeed!! Think I now have a rather clear picture of how it works,so in my case,I better go on and stay on the sideline,as I have had to do for more than 20 years already.And like a criminal on probation report my whereabout every 3 months.Yes,yes,I know;if I do not like it,I can go back to where I came from..Thanks everybody!

[markg]

I'm having a BBQ later. One of my guests is a chef. Is it ok for him to flip burgers on my BBQ at my house, or not?

By the way this thread is going, it would be fine for him to entertain us all to a gourmet meal at HIS house, but not to flip burgers (or mow the lawn/service my motorbike) when at my house.

All a bit silly really.

[HongKongPhooey]

As already mentioned here these sort of 'problems' usually only occur when a report has been made to Immigration and the authorities are duty bound to follow up. These reports are usually made by business competition, disgruntled neighbors or staff, general disputes, and the like. If you look deeper into previous high profile cases you will see that's the case.

I agree. However, if I am Thai, and own a lawn mowing business here, if I make the telephone call to Immigration and dob in a farang who I see mowing a lawn here, what will happen? In a previous post, we only have an "opinion" or an "interpretation" of the law from an interview with an Officer of the Employment Department published in the PG. I don't think you can rely on that, at Thai law.

I have an elderly farang friend with a bad hip. I carry his shopping bags for him. The problem is, where does "friendship" end and working ilegally starts in Thailand?

He lives in a condo, but if he lived in a house and asked me to mow his lawn for him as well, I think I would have to decline. There would be a risk of me breaching the law here because it's his place, not mine, and it seems unclear if you can even mow your own lawns here with absolute certainty you will not be in breach.

I think it is all very clear.

Yes, you can mow your own lawn, no problem. Yes, you can mow your friend's lawn, but you do run a (small) risk.

Well, here we go again. You made a similar post in a recent thread about renting a motorbike here.

So, are you saying the risk exists, but don't worry about it?

Are we being "legal" or not? Are you saying break the law and don't worry about it because the chance of getting caught is very slim, or are you saying you are not breaking the law and go ahead????

I don't think it's very clear at all. I have stated I would be prepared to take the risk on mowing my own lawn, but would not take the risk on mowing anyone else's lawn.

Let's say I was a motorbike mechanic by trade. I would fix my own motorbike, but I'm pretty sure there would be trouble if I was to start fixing friend's motorbikes. (no payment involed)

Perhaps one of the legal firms who sponsor Thaivisa could make a comment. I think we all agree that we are talking about no payment being involved, but is it correct, at Thai law, to say you are legal to work on any property you own Eg. house, motorbike etc but not on anyone else's, even the property of friends and relatives?

I notice this question has come up a lot in the past with people volunteering, or being voted in, to be the secretary of management of their condo block for maintainence etc and payment of accounts. They own a condo in the block, but are perfroming a task for other foreigners.

I know TIT and the law here is very ambiguous, especially for foreigners. I'm more leaning to the side of if there is any doubt/risk - just don't do it.

It must be horrible to live your life in such fear, hiding behind the sofa every day!

I don't think what 'Stevenl' said could have been any clearer. You always want things to be 100% crystal clear and written down in front of you and to know 100% exactly where you stand. That's why you find living in Phuket so hard and moan all the time. You have never been able to adapt to the way things are done here.

There is NO guarantee what will happen. There is NO guarantee that what happens one day will be the same as what happens another day. There is No rhyme or reason when it comes to grey areas like that. I have never heard of anyone with the right paperwork being deported. You don't have the right paperwork then you can do nothing but use your common sense.

'Stevenl' couldn't have said it more accurately. Mow your own lawn you will never have a problem, mow somebody elses lawn and you run a tiny risk of it going bad.

I personally wouldn't do it, not through fear of being caught, but because I believe if you retire in a developing country you should be able to afford to employ a local to do such a menial task as mowing the lawn, thus contributing to the local economy. I don't have any problems with the strict visa, WP, or land ownership laws here and never have.

[HongKongPhooey]

I'm having a BBQ later. One of my guests is a chef. Is it ok for him to flip burgers on my BBQ at my house, or not?

By the way this thread is going, it would be fine for him to entertain us all to a gourmet meal at HIS house, but not to flip burgers (or mow the lawn/service my motorbike) when at my house.

All a bit silly really.

Common sense = yes it's OK.

[HongKongPhooey]

Didn't want to start a new thread for something so unimportant, but for a couple of days I've had no members names at the bottom of my screen, is that the same for everyone or just me?

If who ever decides to slag my post off first could answer that while they are at it, I would be grateful.

[stevenl]

Didn't want to start a new thread for something so unimportant, but for a couple of days I've had no members names at the bottom of my screen, is that the same for everyone or just me?

If who ever decides to slag my post off first could answer that while they are at it, I would be grateful.

Here the same, no names.

[LivinginKata]

Didn't want to start a new thread for something so unimportant, but for a couple of days I've had no members names at the bottom of my screen, is that the same for everyone or just me?

Yes, that's a function of ongoing background data crunching. hopefully that feature will return in day or so.