Populist Policies Boomerang On Yingluck Govt

[Yunla]

And the points raised in this hysterical rant differ how, exactly, from former administrations of whichsoever hue, including the point that would the Abbhisit government have handled the flood crisis any better? Given his laisez faire handling of the 'red shirt' demos, I think not. and I am not alone in this view.

I am no Taksin/Yingluk fan, I personally couldn't give a flying one about any politician, anywhere, but particularly here, and am getting a tad tired of the incessant knee jerk anti red line on this forum amongst posters who firstly have no say, and secondly appear to suffer from amnesia/remember how the average Thai fared under any and all previous 'governments'.

I assure you it wasn't a hysterical rant, I'm a very quiet & thoughtful person. It was my feelings on what I see as a dangerous situation fermenting. I am not Thai citizen & have the luxury of leaving this land to my homeland should it turn to carnage & mayhem here. And following the recent change in visa law towards disabled / terminally ill people, it will be far easier for me to leave than to stay. I do however have many longtime friends here who I love deeply & worry about, as I worried about their safety in 2010 too.

I suppose if you want me to encapsulate it for better your understanding. I have visited this land for many years & I have never broken a single law here. I am almost religiously careful to attend my Visa dates and not break these type of visitor laws here. If I did break even minor victimless visa laws I would suffer serious consequences under the laws of this land.

By contrast, Thaksin has broken a lot of serious laws involving many victims, & been sentenced & fled away from justice. He is now planning to return as a free man & hero of the people. Can you not see that it is wrong for a senior politician to break more laws than a tourist, and to face no justice?

Edited April 21, 2012 by Yunla

[nurofiend]

i've explained very, very clearly the reason why i brought it up, and it has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with defending or excusing it on any level... you obviously still don't understand that there is a difference between the war on drugs and the atrocities committed on people that we would associate with dictators, and that's the only relevance that public support has in this discussion... because in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant... and that's the relevance.

because in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant

Not at all true. Dictatorships are often born out of radical populist ideas that win broad public support, and without this support, at least to begin with, many dictators would not have been able to achieve what they did. It enables all that follows.

so finally, please show me one post outside of this thread where i have mentioned anything about public support for it before this.. or else stop lying about it and admit you were completely wrong to accuse me of it.

I haven't lied. My memory of our past discussions and your position on this matter is very clear. Am i going to spend my Saturday morning searching back through hundreds of old threads and pages to prove my point? Sorry, no. This isn't a court of law. People can chose to believe who they like.

i'm talking about during a dictatorship, obviously talking about a dictatorship in full effect, not how a dictatorship evolves... again you're taking it out of context and trying to spin the argument into something else, it's so petty.

and yes, yes you have lied.

you're a liar.

Edited April 21, 2012 by nurofiend

[tlansford]

The article forgot to mention the one policy that has been implemented without a hitch: The reduction in the corporate tax rate from 30% to 23%.

Funny how the dems/business lobby didn't try to put the brakes on that one.

[tlansford]

And the Leader of the Opposition has a duty, in a normal democratic system, to help keep the government-in-power honest, by pointing-out potential problems or failures, this is not continuously sniping just normal checks-and-balances.

Let's amend the constitution so that crap about checks and balances is removed.

.

I believe that may already be in-hand ?

Perhaps some permanent committee might be mandated, in the new Charter, to examine cases of unusual wealth amongst politicians & senior civil-servants, in every outgoing government. But that would cause cries of political vengeance once again, better perhaps to continue as now, and let lying dogs sleep !

You can believe all you want but at this stage a bill hasn't yet been passed to amend the constitution to allow the formation of a Constitution Drafting Assembly. Once that has been passed and a CDA set up, then discussions about the content of ammendments to the constitution can take place.

I think you've been listening too much to the rhetoric of Abhisit and the Nation.

"I think you've been listening too much to the rhetoric of Abhisit and the Nation."

Listening? Reading? Even that seems to be too much work. It looks like they just make up their own fantasies as they go along.

[Skywalker69]

That is the point

Thaksin dictates to PTP,

they win partly from his cult of personality

partly from populist promises tied to his cult of personality.

He is having government ministers coming to him for talks,

and giving him public blessings and bowing the knee in fealty,

He is 'advisor' to the government,

and control of the Shin clan members in the government.

speaks in it's name on foreign countries while just maintaining the charade of not doing so.

All this while he is still officially on the run from the justice system.

The last part of Thailands governance he has NOT been able to buy control of.

Not that he hasn't tried several times/

Thaksin Speaks PTP Does: He Dictates and they jump and ask;

Is that high enough master?'

This is a dictatorship, the defacto Dictator just is too worried about

being assassinated to come back right now, but he will.

It seems the inmates are already running the asylum.

i don't agree that it's a dictatorship, because it's not.

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

True democracy?

[Skywalker69]

That is the point

Thaksin dictates to PTP,

they win partly from his cult of personality

partly from populist promises tied to his cult of personality.

He is having government ministers coming to him for talks,

and giving him public blessings and bowing the knee in fealty,

He is 'advisor' to the government,

and control of the Shin clan members in the government.

speaks in it's name on foreign countries while just maintaining the charade of not doing so.

All this while he is still officially on the run from the justice system.

The last part of Thailands governance he has NOT been able to buy control of.

Not that he hasn't tried several times/

Thaksin Speaks PTP Does: He Dictates and they jump and ask;

Is that high enough master?'

This is a dictatorship, the defacto Dictator just is too worried about

being assassinated to come back right now, but he will.

It seems the inmates are already running the asylum.

i don't agree that it's a dictatorship, because it's not.

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

Because he is a coward.

[Skywalker69]

And the points raised in this hysterical rant differ how, exactly, from former administrations of whichsoever hue, including the point that would the Abbhisit government have handled the flood crisis any better? Given his laisez faire handling of the 'red shirt' demos, I think not. and I am not alone in this view.

I am no Taksin/Yingluk fan, I personally couldn't give a flying one about any politician, anywhere, but particularly here, and am getting a tad tired of the incessant knee jerk anti red line on this forum amongst posters who firstly have no say, and secondly appear to suffer from amnesia/remember how the average Thai fared under any and all previous 'governments'.

I assure you it wasn't a hysterical rant, I'm a very quiet & thoughtful person. It was my feelings on what I see as a dangerous situation fermenting. I am not Thai citizen & have the luxury of leaving this land to my homeland should it turn to carnage & mayhem here. And following the recent change in visa law towards disabled / terminally ill people, it will be far easier for me to leave than to stay. I do however have many longtime friends here who I love deeply & worry about, as I worried about their safety in 2010 too.

I suppose if you want me to encapsulate it for better your understanding. I have visited this land for many years & I have never broken a single law here. I am almost religiously careful to attend my Visa dates and not break these type of visitor laws here. If I did break even minor victimless visa laws I would suffer serious consequences under the laws of this land.

By contrast, Thaksin has broken a lot of serious laws involving many victims, & been sentenced & fled away from justice. He is now planning to return as a free man & hero of the people. Can you not see that it is wrong for a senior politician to break more laws than a tourist, and to face no justice?

Good post!

[Siam Simon]

That is the point

Thaksin dictates to PTP,

they win partly from his cult of personality

partly from populist promises tied to his cult of personality.

He is having government ministers coming to him for talks,

and giving him public blessings and bowing the knee in fealty,

He is 'advisor' to the government,

and control of the Shin clan members in the government.

speaks in it's name on foreign countries while just maintaining the charade of not doing so.

All this while he is still officially on the run from the justice system.

The last part of Thailands governance he has NOT been able to buy control of.

Not that he hasn't tried several times/

Thaksin Speaks PTP Does: He Dictates and they jump and ask;

Is that high enough master?'

This is a dictatorship, the defacto Dictator just is too worried about

being assassinated to come back right now, but he will.

It seems the inmates are already running the asylum.

i don't agree that it's a dictatorship, because it's not.

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

We all know Thaksin holds some very strong cards and that he's not the only player at the table.

Best to leave the rant and propaganda to the ranters and propagandists

[Siam Simon]

And the points raised in this hysterical rant differ how, exactly, from former administrations of whichsoever hue, including the point that would the Abbhisit government have handled the flood crisis any better? Given his laisez faire handling of the 'red shirt' demos, I think not. and I am not alone in this view.

I am no Taksin/Yingluk fan, I personally couldn't give a flying one about any politician, anywhere, but particularly here, and am getting a tad tired of the incessant knee jerk anti red line on this forum amongst posters who firstly have no say, and secondly appear to suffer from amnesia/remember how the average Thai fared under any and all previous 'governments'.

I assure you it wasn't a hysterical rant, I'm a very quiet & thoughtful person. It was my feelings on what I see as a dangerous situation fermenting. I am not Thai citizen & have the luxury of leaving this land to my homeland should it turn to carnage & mayhem here. And following the recent change in visa law towards disabled / terminally ill people, it will be far easier for me to leave than to stay. I do however have many longtime friends here who I love deeply & worry about, as I worried about their safety in 2010 too.

I suppose if you want me to encapsulate it for better your understanding. I have visited this land for many years & I have never broken a single law here. I am almost religiously careful to attend my Visa dates and not break these type of visitor laws here. If I did break even minor victimless visa laws I would suffer serious consequences under the laws of this land.

By contrast, Thaksin has broken a lot of serious laws involving many victims, & been sentenced & fled away from justice. He is now planning to return as a free man & hero of the people. Can you not see that it is wrong for a senior politician to break more laws than a tourist, and to face no justice?

You need to open your eyes a bit wider. Thailand's systems of doing business are inherently crooked. Thaksin wasn't turned into a criminal because he's a crook: It was because he tried to usurp other crooks and failed. I have no problem with crooks facing proper investigation and justice. But how have things progressed since Thaksin was prosecuted? I can answer for you: They haven't. Which gives you a clue as to why Thaksin's prosecutions aren't the start of The BIg Cleanup.

Btw, the UK police are currently prosecuting the British manufacturer who manufactured and supplied the completely useless GT200 'bomb detector'. Thailand has purchased thousands of these useless devices at around £20,000 per device, the first two of which were purchased during the dying days of the TRT government for evaluation purposes. After the then PM Abhisit announced that the Thai government would purchase no more of these useless devices, the then army CIC Anupong called a major press conference whence he provided some cock and bull evidence involving a computer sound card called a GT200 and the ubiquitous pathologist Pornthip confirming her confidence in and continuing usage of the useless device (which instantly destroyed her international credibility).

Btw2, the UK police are also investigating suspected corruption/bribes regarding purchase of the useless 'bomb detector' by foreign parties. The corruption angle could get very interesting for Thailand if the British police do their usual thorough job, and my money's on Thaksin being one of the ones having the least to worry about.

[nurofiend]

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

Because he is a coward.

that's not really a proper answer to my question now is it?....

unless you actually do believe that thaksin holds absolute power over thailand, yet talks about the longing to return a lot... yet doesn't do so.

unless you think that he doesn't want to come back to thailand?.. what else would be stopping a man holding absolute power over a country from returning?

maybe my definition of a dictator holding absolute power over a country differs from yours.

[OzMick]

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

Because he is a coward.

that's not really a proper answer to my question now is it?....

unless you actually do believe that thaksin holds absolute power over thailand, yet talks about the longing to return a lot... yet doesn't do so.

unless you think that he doesn't want to come back to thailand?.. what else would be stopping a man holding absolute power over a country from returning?

maybe my definition of a dictator holding absolute power over a country differs from yours.

You are correct, Thaksin does not hold absolute power. But does he desire to do so?

[Buchholz]

Thailand has purchased thousands of these useless devices at around £20,000 per device

Do you have a link that shows Thailand spent billions of baht on these?

"thousands" x 1,000,000 baht each.

.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Buchholz

[waza]

I believe the PTP's election promises, the demonisation of the coup which created an us against them mentality and the perception of a generous, man of the people Thaksin were the catalysts that got the PTP elected.

However, now the chickens come home to roost, the reality is slowly dawning that the real agenda hasnt been about making the lives of the electrate easier as promised, or more democractic but been all about greed and corruption.

Thaksin and his government have been shown not to be about the people but to only care about Thaksins needs, his need to return as a hero, his need to regain his wealth and his need to compensate his supporters. That why the big ticket items has been pouring out the parliments door, rice, onions ect subsidies, dams, rail links, ports in Myamar ect ect, anything that has a big kick back, the list goes on.

With this in mind it is obvious that under the current financial climate, even with an unprecedented increase in debt the election promises cant be funded alongside the massive corruption required to pay back Thasksins political supporters.

For example the promise of wage and salary rises have already resulted in price gauging and inflation to compensate for the percieve effect they would have on profit margins if they were universally implemented.

As this true agenda is revealled by the actions of the PTP the electrates eyes are opening, the fun ride is becoming a car crash, the reality is becoming apparent and support for Thaksin is dwindling this will make Thaksin and his backers more desperate.

[Yunla]

You need to open your eyes a bit wider. Thailand's systems of doing business are inherently crooked. Thaksin wasn't turned into a criminal because he's a crook: It was because he tried to usurp other crooks and failed. I have no problem with crooks facing proper investigation and justice. But how have things progressed since Thaksin was prosecuted? I can answer for you: They haven't. Which gives you a clue as to why Thaksin's prosecutions aren't the start of The BIg Cleanup.

Btw, the UK police are currently prosecuting the British manufacturer who manufactured and supplied the completely useless GT200 'bomb detector'. Thailand has purchased thousands of these useless devices at around £20,000 per device, the first two of which were purchased during the dying days of the TRT government for evaluation purposes. After the then PM Abhisit announced that the Thai government would purchase no more of these useless devices, the then army CIC Anupong called a major press conference whence he provided some cock and bull evidence involving a computer sound card called a GT200 and the ubiquitous pathologist Pornthip confirming her confidence in and continuing usage of the useless device (which instantly destroyed her international credibility).

Btw2, the UK police are also investigating suspected corruption/bribes regarding purchase of the useless 'bomb detector' by foreign parties. The corruption angle could get very interesting for Thailand if the British police do their usual thorough job, and my money's on Thaksin being one of the ones having the least to worry about.

I actually agree entirely with your point that Thai state-level corruption did not begin with Thaksin, and successful democracy here has been 'a rocky road to martyrdom', as the saying goes. We can safely agree that there has been massive fraud, bribery & all out larceny across the board for a long long time. Nor do I pretend to know the internal dealings of Abhisit or metal detector companies.

I personally liked Abhisit, the way he tried to reason with the red mob before they started marching and then during their long seige of Bangkok when he opened dialogue and offered early elections etc. all from the bunker where he was forced to stay. Even when those cheeky red fellows were tipping buckets of HIV+ & HEP+ blood on the pavements where children were walking past, Abhisit merely said publically that he hoped the reds would be careful during their blood-transfers from arm to bucket, that they were conducted in a medically-safe manner. If Abhisit is a bad person then he surely hides it well.

On the broader point I would say that given the corruption of past political leaderships, what is needed is new political leaders, not related by family to on-the-run-criminals or any other detritus of failed regimes. New players, new ideas, honesty and integrity is what is needed for democracy to move forward, not the "usual suspects".

Edited April 22, 2012 by Yunla

[nurofiend]

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

Because he is a coward.

that's not really a proper answer to my question now is it?....

unless you actually do believe that thaksin holds absolute power over thailand, yet talks about the longing to return a lot... yet doesn't do so.

unless you think that he doesn't want to come back to thailand?.. what else would be stopping a man holding absolute power over a country from returning?

maybe my definition of a dictator holding absolute power over a country differs from yours.

You are correct, Thaksin does not hold absolute power. But does he desire to do so?

i had a feeling i was correct on that one, cheers.

[whybother]

You need to open your eyes a bit wider. Thailand's systems of doing business are inherently crooked. Thaksin wasn't turned into a criminal because he's a crook: It was because he tried to usurp other crooks and failed. I have no problem with crooks facing proper investigation and justice. But how have things progressed since Thaksin was prosecuted? I can answer for you: They haven't. Which gives you a clue as to why Thaksin's prosecutions aren't the start of The BIg Cleanup.

<snip>

It's a bit hard to progress when the only aim of Thaksin's puppet party's has been get him back so that they can go back to the corruption of when he was PM.

[nurofiend]

You need to open your eyes a bit wider. Thailand's systems of doing business are inherently crooked. Thaksin wasn't turned into a criminal because he's a crook: It was because he tried to usurp other crooks and failed. I have no problem with crooks facing proper investigation and justice. But how have things progressed since Thaksin was prosecuted? I can answer for you: They haven't. Which gives you a clue as to why Thaksin's prosecutions aren't the start of The BIg Cleanup.

<snip>

It's a bit hard to progress when the only aim of Thaksin's puppet party's has been get him back so that they can go back to the corruption of when he was PM.

yeah, that's their only aim.

[rixalex]

because in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant

Not at all true. Dictatorships are often born out of radical populist ideas that win broad public support, and without this support, at least to begin with, many dictators would not have been able to achieve what they did. It enables all that follows.

i'm talking about during a dictatorship, obviously talking about a dictatorship in full effect, not how a dictatorship evolves... again you're taking it out of context and trying to spin the argument into something else, it's so petty.

Even dictatorships "in full effect" need to take into consideration public feeling. Yes, as is the nature of dictatorships, they have the power to force unpopular things upon their citizens, but it makes sense in terms of ease of control to keep a certain section of the population on side and reasonably happy.

If the entire nation is against you, as we have seen in recent history, even dictatorships can be toppled. So to repeat, your statement: in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant is wrong. I'm sorry you find that petty.

[nurofiend]

because in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant

Not at all true. Dictatorships are often born out of radical populist ideas that win broad public support, and without this support, at least to begin with, many dictators would not have been able to achieve what they did. It enables all that follows.

i'm talking about during a dictatorship, obviously talking about a dictatorship in full effect, not how a dictatorship evolves... again you're taking it out of context and trying to spin the argument into something else, it's so petty.

Even dictatorships "in full effect" need to take into consideration public feeling. Yes, as is the nature of dictatorships, they have the power to force unpopular things upon their citizens, but it makes sense in terms of ease of control to keep a certain section of the population on side and reasonably happy.

If the entire nation is against you, as we have seen in recent history, even dictatorships can be toppled. So to repeat, your statement: in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant is wrong. I'm sorry you find that petty.

Even dictatorships "in full effect" need to take into consideration public feeling.

mmm as in, if it's the public's feeling that atrocities are being committed against them, the dictators take this into consideration and stop said atrocities on their own people?...?

show me one example in history where that's happened... when a dictator committing atrocites on his own people stopped only due to the realisation that it was unpopular with his own people?

that's the relevance of public support... in context,the discussion was on public support for the atrocities being committed by the dictator, not the support for the dictator getting into and remaining in power... and i'm well aware that dictatorships can be toppled, makes absolutely no difference to any point i was making.

atrocities that we famously associate with dictators get slim public support for obvious reasons, the war on drugs did get public support... that doesn't make the acts committed during thaksins war on drugs better, but it makes a difference when talking about dictatorships "in full effect" who wouldn't care less or even have to appear to take any notice of public support, they'd carry on regardless. that's the point!!!!!

it's the difference of a dictatorship with absolute control that i'm trying to point out!

not a who's killings are more justified than the other.... and i must have made more circles in this conversation than the earth spins around the sun.

but that's not what i found petty,

what i found petty is your 100% full blown lies,

making completely false accusations about posts and opinions that "you know" i have said in the past,

that you even double denied that you were wrong about.

so do you care to admit that you blatantly lied about what i've posted in the past?

or do you still want to be a liar?

Edited April 22, 2012 by nurofiend

[rixalex]

mmm as in, if it's the public's feeling that atrocities are being committed against them, the dictators take this into consideration and stop said atrocities on their own people?...?

show me one example in history where that's happened... when a dictator committing atrocites on his own people stopped only due to the realisation that it was unpopular with his own people?

I don't have to show you an example of something i haven't claimed. You said in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant, and i said that this was not true, and explained why public support even in a dictatorship does have some relevance.

atrocities that we famously associate with dictators get slim public support for obvious reasons, the war on drugs did get public support... that doesn't make the acts committed during thaksins war on drugs better, but it makes a difference when talking about dictatorships "in full effect" who wouldn't care less or even have to appear to take any notice of public support, they'd carry on regardless. that's the point!!!!!

Just to be clear on all this, i'm not arguing that Thaksin did lead anything close to a complete dictatorship. I'm arguing that public support and it's effect, or lack thereof, on the decisions leaders take, marks out what is a dictatorship and what isn't. Anyway, as you rightly say, we have gone round on this enough times already and as it is somewhat off-topic, i'll leave it at that.

but that's not what i found petty,

what i found petty is your 100% full blown lies,

making completely false accusations about posts and opinions that "you know" i have said in the past,

that you even double denied that you were wrong about.

so do you care to admit that you blatantly lied about what i've posted in the past?

or do you still want to be a liar?

I have to say, pettiness seems a curious way to describe what you perceive as a 100% full blown lie, but that aside, and to your accusation of lying, i'm simply going by my memories of past discussions with you on this topic. They may be wrong, and if they are, i apologise... but i don't think they are, and to any further accusations you wish to make of me of this nature, i shall desist from further traveling with you down Tom Petty Avenue of, "oh no i'm not a liar"... "oh yes you are".

[silsburyhill]

And the points raised in this hysterical rant differ how, exactly, from former administrations of whichsoever hue, including the point that would the Abbhisit government have handled the flood crisis any better? Given his laisez faire handling of the 'red shirt' demos, I think not. and I am not alone in this view.

I am no Taksin/Yingluk fan, I personally couldn't give a flying one about any politician, anywhere, but particularly here, and am getting a tad tired of the incessant knee jerk anti red line on this forum amongst posters who firstly have no say, and secondly appear to suffer from amnesia/remember how the average Thai fared under any and all previous 'governments'.

I assure you it wasn't a hysterical rant, I'm a very quiet & thoughtful person. It was my feelings on what I see as a dangerous situation fermenting. I am not Thai citizen & have the luxury of leaving this land to my homeland should it turn to carnage & mayhem here. And following the recent change in visa law towards disabled / terminally ill people, it will be far easier for me to leave than to stay. I do however have many longtime friends here who I love deeply & worry about, as I worried about their safety in 2010 too.

I suppose if you want me to encapsulate it for better your understanding. I have visited this land for many years & I have never broken a single law here. I am almost religiously careful to attend my Visa dates and not break these type of visitor laws here. If I did break even minor victimless visa laws I would suffer serious consequences under the laws of this land.

By contrast, Thaksin has broken a lot of serious laws involving many victims, & been sentenced & fled away from justice. He is now planning to return as a free man & hero of the people. Can you not see that it is wrong for a senior politician to break more laws than a tourist, and to face no justice?

I fail to see the connection between Taksin's sale of shares through proxies and tourists and their 'visa runs'?! And are you seriously suggesting that Thai history is devoid of 'powerful' groups not taking advantage of/being unkind/unfair to those of their fellow countrymen? Would you prefer that true serfdom in it's purest state were re-implemented?

The fact is that Taksin, for all his faults, was the first to break the mold and pose a not insubstantial threat to the status quo. New Money versus Old, if you will. And again, No, I am most certainly not a fan. The old power elite brought this man on themselves.

Edited April 22, 2012 by silsburyhill

[waza]

What have dictators got to do with this post? Moderators please remove this post if its off topic

Edited April 22, 2012 by waza

[nurofiend]

mmm as in, if it's the public's feeling that atrocities are being committed against them, the dictators take this into consideration and stop said atrocities on their own people?...?

show me one example in history where that's happened... when a dictator committing atrocites on his own people stopped only due to the realisation that it was unpopular with his own people?

I don't have to show you an example of something i haven't claimed. You said in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant, and i said that this was not true, and explained why public support even in a dictatorship does have some relevance.

atrocities that we famously associate with dictators get slim public support for obvious reasons, the war on drugs did get public support... that doesn't make the acts committed during thaksins war on drugs better, but it makes a difference when talking about dictatorships "in full effect" who wouldn't care less or even have to appear to take any notice of public support, they'd carry on regardless. that's the point!!!!!

Just to be clear on all this, i'm not arguing that Thaksin did lead anything close to a complete dictatorship. I'm arguing that public support and it's effect, or lack thereof, on the decisions leaders take, marks out what is a dictatorship and what isn't. Anyway, as you rightly say, we have gone round on this enough times already and as it is somewhat off-topic, i'll leave it at that.

but that's not what i found petty,

what i found petty is your 100% full blown lies,

making completely false accusations about posts and opinions that "you know" i have said in the past,

that you even double denied that you were wrong about.

so do you care to admit that you blatantly lied about what i've posted in the past?

or do you still want to be a liar?

I have to say, pettiness seems a curious way to describe what you perceive as a 100% full blown lie, but that aside, and to your accusation of lying, i'm simply going by my memories of past discussions with you on this topic. They may be wrong, and if they are, i apologise... but i don't think they are, and to any further accusations you wish to make of me of this nature, i shall desist from further traveling with you down Tom Petty Avenue of, "oh no i'm not a liar"... "oh yes you are".

"You said in a dictatorship public support is entirely irrelevant, and i said that this was not true, and explained why public support even in a dictatorship does have some relevance."

public support is irrelevant to how dictatorships act when they are in full absolute power, as in the atrocities they commit............context.

of course it is relevant to how dictatorships can come to an end, but it's not relevant to how they act when they are in full power ie. what i was talking about......context.

i'm not making any accusations, you're simply a liar.. and the only one who made unfounded accusations here.

[nurofiend]

What have dictators got to do with this post? Moderators please remove this post if its off topic

pfft

if discussion about dictators is off topic then you better start clicking that report button all the way back to posts starting on page one...

plus you know the protocol i'm sure.. report a post you don't like... because i think what you're doing is discussing moderation in that post.

[tlansford]

I believe the PTP's election promises, the demonisation of the coup which created an us against them mentality and the perception of a generous, man of the people Thaksin were the catalysts that got the PTP elected.

However, now the chickens come home to roost, the reality is slowly dawning that the real agenda hasnt been about making the lives of the electrate easier as promised, or more democractic but been all about greed and corruption.

Thaksin and his government have been shown not to be about the people but to only care about Thaksins needs, his need to return as a hero, his need to regain his wealth and his need to compensate his supporters. That why the big ticket items has been pouring out the parliments door, rice, onions ect subsidies, dams, rail links, ports in Myamar ect ect, anything that has a big kick back, the list goes on.

With this in mind it is obvious that under the current financial climate, even with an unprecedented increase in debt the election promises cant be funded alongside the massive corruption required to pay back Thasksins political supporters.

For example the promise of wage and salary rises have already resulted in price gauging and inflation to compensate for the percieve effect they would have on profit margins if they were universally implemented.

As this true agenda is revealled by the actions of the PTP the electrates eyes are opening, the fun ride is becoming a car crash, the reality is becoming apparent and support for Thaksin is dwindling this will make Thaksin and his backers more desperate.

"demonisation of the coup"

??

That - all by itself - is an amazing statement.

[waza]

I believe the PTP's election promises, the demonisation of the coup which created an us against them mentality and the perception of a generous, man of the people Thaksin were the catalysts that got the PTP elected.

However, now the chickens come home to roost, the reality is slowly dawning that the real agenda hasnt been about making the lives of the electrate easier as promised, or more democractic but been all about greed and corruption.

Thaksin and his government have been shown not to be about the people but to only care about Thaksins needs, his need to return as a hero, his need to regain his wealth and his need to compensate his supporters. That why the big ticket items has been pouring out the parliments door, rice, onions ect subsidies, dams, rail links, ports in Myamar ect ect, anything that has a big kick back, the list goes on.

With this in mind it is obvious that under the current financial climate, even with an unprecedented increase in debt the election promises cant be funded alongside the massive corruption required to pay back Thasksins political supporters.

For example the promise of wage and salary rises have already resulted in price gauging and inflation to compensate for the percieve effect they would have on profit margins if they were universally implemented.

As this true agenda is revealled by the actions of the PTP the electrates eyes are opening, the fun ride is becoming a car crash, the reality is becoming apparent and support for Thaksin is dwindling this will make Thaksin and his backers more desperate.

"demonisation of the coup"

??

That - all by itself - is an amazing statement.

Although I dont agree with coups I think this one was justified to remove a despot who was acting in a caretaker role and stalling the democratic process while he tried to change the laws to justify his corruption. Meanwhile he set his red supporters against the yellows which was costing peoples lives and could have ended in civil war. Following the coup Thaksin postulated that all those who were not Red were coupist and therefore anti-demacratic and anti-issan, thereby creating and perpetuating a class divide of reds against the demon coupist elites.

Edited April 22, 2012 by waza

[Buchholz]

Here's a populist policy that doesn't seem too popular..........

[Buchholz]

Finance Minister to Extend First-home Loan Program, Increase Price Cap

The Finance Ministry is looking to extend the first-home buyer loan program by another year and increase the cap for an eligible home's value to two million baht after it has received a lower-than-expected number of applications.

Deputy Finance Minister Wirun Techapaiboon said his ministry is considering extending the first-home buyer loan program by another year after having received a meager number of applications.

He added that his ministry will also consider revising the cap for an eligible home's value up from originally one million to two million baht, as property prices have increased recently and so that the program is accessible to those buying homes valued higher one million baht.

However, Wirun noted it has yet to be decided whether the new cap is applicable for the home's market value or the approved loan amount since many first-home owners have bought homes with higher prices than the cap, but their loan amounts granted by banks do not exceed it.

The deputy finance minister said he will push through the proposal as soon as possible to prevent any hiccup in the implementation of the program.

In addition, he said his ministry has instructed the Government Housing Bank to offer long-term loans with low monthly repayment for existing customers in the wake of rising cost of living.

According to the deputy finance minister, home loans account for 19 percent of the gross domestic product. The ministry is looking to increase the figure to 25 percent as the property market is regarded as the country's key economic driver.

However, the 25-percent target is still lower than the current figure in neighboring countries such as Malaysia, whose home loans-to-GDP ratio is 30 percent.

-- Tan Network 2012-04-23

[animatic]

quote name='Thaddeus' timestamp='1334859736' post='5233799'

Ok, we'll take your word for that, it isn't a dictatorship then, what word would you use when describing one man holding absolute power?

oh please, if he held absolute power then why the hell is he not in thailand?

Because he is a coward.

that's not really a proper answer to my question now is it?....

unless you actually do believe that thaksin holds absolute power over thailand, yet talks about the longing to return a lot... yet doesn't do so.

unless you think that he doesn't want to come back to thailand?.. what else would be stopping a man holding absolute power over a country from returning?

maybe my definition of a dictator holding absolute power over a country differs from yours.

You are correct, Thaksin does not hold absolute power. But does he desire to do so?

It is quite obvious he does.

The point is absolute political power does not prevent you from being assassinated.

It makes you rich and it feeds the ego by use of power, but it doesn't prevent

1 or several intent individuals from ending your oligarchic control.

It just makes it harder because you can afford security.

Thing is to run a popular uprising via cult of personality that personality MUST be seen and heard in public... therein lies many opportunities for that small but intent group to get at the personality in question.

But staying abroad and generally using the press and electronic communications allows a barrier of security to function. But re-entry to the country and personal appearances are a must, or the perceived omnipotence of the cult figure suffers exponentially.

Edited April 23, 2012 by animatic

[animatic]

Finance Minister to Extend First-home Loan Program, Increase Price Cap

The Finance Ministry is looking to extend the first-home buyer loan program by another year and increase the cap for an eligible home's value to two million baht after it has received a lower-than-expected number of applications.

Deputy Finance Minister Wirun Techapaiboon said his ministry is considering extending the first-home buyer loan program by another year after having received a meager number of applications.

He added that his ministry will also consider revising the cap for an eligible home's value up from originally one million to two million baht, as property prices have increased recently and so that the program is accessible to those buying homes valued higher one million baht.

However, Wirun noted it has yet to be decided whether the new cap is applicable for the home's market value or the approved loan amount since many first-home owners have bought homes with higher prices than the cap, but their loan amounts granted by banks do not exceed it.

The deputy finance minister said he will push through the proposal as soon as possible to prevent any hiccup in the implementation of the program.

In addition, he said his ministry has instructed the Government Housing Bank to offer long-term loans with low monthly repayment for existing customers in the wake of rising cost of living.

According to the deputy finance minister, home loans account for 19 percent of the gross domestic product. The ministry is looking to increase the figure to 25 percent as the property market is regarded as the country's key economic driver.

However, the 25-percent target is still lower than the current figure in neighboring countries such as Malaysia, whose home loans-to-GDP ratio is 30 percent.

-- Tan Network 2012-04-23

So, extend something that was never actually started?

If so as of when and how many homes were bought?

And what is the median income of those home buyers?

What is the political allegence of those home buyers?