Its Not Racism, Its Tribalism,

[pastitche]

...

Was it a joke about a French lad at Murrayfield?

Surely you remember the joke about the French lad who asks for an England shirt for his birthday?

If not, you must be the only one

Go on then - remind me; has it got something to do with le coq sportif?

[yermanee]

My 2 cents :

Nationalism is a human construct by governments to try and bind the nation to a common goal.

Tribalism is an evolutionary trait that we humans all share.

Racism is the ugly side of tribalism.

Yermanee

[VocalNeal]

Hmmm.

Tribalism when one or more individuals pick on another one or more individuals.

Say Muslims vs. Aussie Life Guards

Nationalism when the government decides the country doesn't like another country

Pick a war.

Racism something invented by the media in the US.

Whites vs. blacks (in the media) before that it was tribalism.

Celtic vs. Rangers I'll leave that to my learned Scottish friend!!

[Kilgore Trout]

Uhm, interesting theblether mate, a bit hard to keep it Thailand-related though..

Your last line :" Is it so hard to keep an open mind ?"

Yes it's hard !

If you want to treat everybody the same, you'll probably end to be seen as a stranger by everybody.. My little experience so far..

The reality is that the really free minds have a hard time in this world

I agree with that, I am not proposing that we go through life in some hippie style peace and love happy clappy fashion, we still need to keep our wits about us.

The Thai angle comes from the fact that this country really has tribal issues, which are dealt with a bit haphazardly but on the whole Thailand ensures that the refugees have a safe home. We also know that there is nationalism afoot here, and a degree of racism.

I found it interesting that the young man mentioned was doing a dissertation on the subject based upon Rwanda, when in reality this country is a better case study. We discussed the effects of the troubles in Mynamar and how that was driving tribal people into Thailand, and that really got him thinking.

Got me thinking too.......unusual event that

Haven't the Thais, as a matter of policy, been sending hmong refugees back to Laos where they are being persocuted?

When you say "the Thais" do you mean all Thais, or some sub-set of all Thais? Perhaps those that live in Thailand? Perhaps th Thai government? Perhaps some groups within the Thai Immigration Department, acting on behalf of the Thai Government, or perhaps acting without the sanction of the Thai goernment...

I don't have an axe to grind in that race (some woul say there's no such thing as race, though Bernie Ecclestone might disagree), but I just highlight that as an example of how imprecise language can be used to engender prejudice and encourage an "Us and Them" mentality, which stood us in such good stead at Murrayfield a few weeks ago. In fact, it reminds me about a joke which I am sure you all know regarding a French lad ... anyway, I'll not bore you with that digression.

Anyway, I am sure that NewlyMintedThai does not repatriate Hmong to be persecuted... nor Samran, though some of their compatriots might be involved in such activities.

SC

I was referring to the official policy of the Thai government. Thai would mean the country whereas "Tai" refers to the ethnic group of which Thais belong, there are many of them such as the Laotians, Shan, Red, Black Tai etc.

Question is, to Thais feel any sense of kinship with these other Tai ethnic groups? That might point to a dichotomy between nationalism and tribalism.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

My mum was a teenager during WWII so of course the brown shirt "Hitler Youth" was just like the girl scouts for her.

My dad volunteered with the RAF before we declared war and dropped bombs on cities not far from his future wife.

They met in NYC in the 50's, and I'm proud to be an American, as are both my parents. Nothing to do with "tribal" identity, DNA ancestors personally contributing to US history, just pure nationalism.

I am of course deeply ashamed as well for many of my governments stupid and evil decisions, as well as many cultural aspects of life in America, and these days am pretty much opposed to the whole concept of nationalism, and look forward to the future hope of mankind evolving to the point where a global government could be trusted to govern wisely.

Not holding my breath.

I do think all borders should be opened up so anyone could live and work anywhere, quick way to eliminate unfair advantages of economic development, bring all us firstworlders face to face with the reality of poverty.

Not holding my breath for that either. . .

[theblether]

Hmmm.

Tribalism when one or more individuals pick on another one or more individuals.

Say Muslims vs. Aussie Life Guards

Nationalism when the government decides the country doesn't like another country

Pick a war.

Racism something invented by the media in the US.

Whites vs. blacks (in the media) before that it was tribalism.

Celtic vs. Rangers I'll leave that to my learned Scottish friend!!

Very interesting take on it........you will be aware that the level of hatred between Celtic and Rangers has often caused explosions of violence and death, and during the Troubles in Northern Ireland meetings between these two clubs were focal points for the hatreds engendered by generations of violence and sectarianism.

We saw the effects of this type of sectarianism during the war in the Balkans, I think most of us never thought we would see the day when violence of that level returned to Europe, and some of the photos of emaciated men in prison camps put us in mind of the Concentration camps. I never thought I would see the day either that tennis would become a battle ground for sectarian violence, but we have grown used to seeing Croat v Serbian battles at the Australian Open.

If my fellow Scots on TV can indulge me I will tackle the Scottish sectarian issue for a moment. It is a prime example of people from the same ethnic group, ( Scots/Irish) splitting into two tribes, and this tribal warfare was horrific. It infused every part of daily life in Scotland and Ireland, and I mean every part to an extent you would not believe. Twice this week I have been asked by Scots and Irish strangers what team I support, how I answer will ( can ) have a bearing on how that person will take to me. So I am 6000 miles from home and the issue has followed me.

The secure unit for Aggressive Psychopaths had to close in Northern Ireland during the Troubles due to the lack of patients, people who would have ordinarily been locked up were being used and lauded on both sides in an unbelievably barbaric war of attrition.

I would say that tribalism is the greatest danger that we face from the three mentioned, it is tribalism that is at the heart of the troubles in Iraq, and tribalism flashed into rage in Libya and most famously Rwanda in recent years. This type of tribalism can be easily understood.

The other type of tribalism is more pervasive, it can be a result of sports teams, which street you live in, which religion you belong to, even what school you go to, and all that applies worldwide. It is the human need to belong to a group for protection, and for an identity. So I suppose another question is, which tribe do you or I belong to? and do we it allow that to dictate our interaction with other people?

[Soutpeel]

bring all us firstworlders face to face with the reality of poverty.

Easy achieved...become an "English teacher" in Thailand

[GuestHouse]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Question is, to Thais feel any sense of kinship with these other Tai ethnic groups? That might point to a dichotomy between nationalism and tribalism.

Officially and in public, eg government school curriculum, all Thai nationals are equal and one. In practice central Thais ("pak glang", speakers of the dialect that has become the official Thai language) do consider themselves superior to the others, with the possible exception of the ex-Lanna residents of "pak neua", which also had a pretty high degree of development in parallel with the Ayutthaya kingdom.

Urban merchant/middle+ class Thais consider themselves superior to poor rural peasantry, and this is reinforced by language differences as in Isaan, where Khmer and Suay people are in the minority even more than Lao-speakers (who actually are not even compared to central-Thai).

The muslims of the south (ethnic Malay) are de-facto "them" compared to the Buddhist "us", and the hill-tribes, many of whom have no nationality at all despite having settle here for generations are considered as alien as we farang.

So all of these culturally defined categories are potentially divisive, but in practice as long as no one makes a fuss (as in the south ATM) the differences are largely irrelevent on a national scale. However if you're in a minority that actually suffers from such discrimination, you probably consider it significant.

[StreetCowboy]

...

The other type of tribalism is more pervasive, it can be a result of sports teams, which street you live in, which religion you belong to, even what school you go to, and all that applies worldwide. It is the human need to belong to a group for protection, and for an identity. So I suppose another question is, which tribe do you or I belong to?...

TV Stars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnXEsRJyNaY&feature=related

SC

[theblether]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

Whats wrong with oatmeal?

See people will find any excuse to not like another group

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

[buhi]

Excuse me, but all three things do exist:

Nationalism

Tribalism

Racism

I agree, however, there is only one race of our species, the human race, and we are ALL closely related. But the vast majority of humans don't have a clue about that, and world peace is nowhere in sight.

I totally agree that all three exist but they are a construct of man, and his need to feel superior. It is up to us as individuals to get over that need.

On the bright side there are a lot of people who are aware of the vicious and negative effects of the three constructs mentioned, maybe it will just take a while and a lot more education for it to seep throughout the world.

It would be interesting to know your family history Jingthing, you are most likely a fantastic case study in Internationalism at its most positive.

Nationalism, tribalism and racism are generally the cause of all wars and, obviously, abhorrent to the vast majority of people. But - how many times (in the UK) did I hear a sentence start "I'm not racist but...." People don't realise they're racist/tribalist etc., believing they are just insightful...

The problem is that we learn them when we are v. young (in most, if not all, countries), and it will be centuries before education is able to eradicate this.

When I was young I would never have believed that I had a racist bone in my body, until - one day a black man seriously pissed me off and I wanted to include 'black' in my abusive response . I now realise that subconsciously I am still racist, even though I do my v best not to be.

I like this :

When I am driving and getting the usual road rage, non consciously I will curse stupid Thai idiot, when next to me is my Thai wife and sitting behind my Thai son.

Now if you asked me am I anti Thai, I would write a thesis on why I was not.

Tribalism ingrained.

Don't know what my son is learning through these sub conscious outbursts.

Can I stop it, well no; when there is a need to release frustration, better a few rude or inappropriate words than physical violence, but then I 'm a bit strange.

Edited April 20, 2012 by buhi

[onionluke]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

If we vote for independance , not you , ye had better pray fair England does not fall to into regional divisional claims to that same right .

[Soutpeel]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

If we had sent some bricklayers to Newcastle and fixed/mantained the wall after the Roman's left wouldnt have this problem now with the porridge munchers.

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

[onionluke]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

If we had sent some bricklayers to Newcastle and fixed/mantained the wall after the Roman's left wouldnt have this problem now with the porridge munchers.

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

Yes, you might find some Polish brickies to do the job .

[Mosha]

It's part of our evolution. We are all superior to those in the next village. 2 species in this planet declare war on their own kind. The other one is Chimpanzees.

[GuestHouse]

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

I say re-build the wall. tile it on the north side, let the constant rain fill the waste lands north of the boarder with water which can then be pumped south and put the tp the useful end of keeping English lawns green.

[StreetCowboy]

An Oatmeal Savage lecturing us on Tribalism - well yes I get that.

Give 'em independence and they can get back to the serious business of hating each other.

Oatmeal - I'm gasping for a pint of Gillespies now, and a white pudding supper.

SC

EDIT: Sorry, meant to post that in "Why did (would) you leave?" thread

http://www.thaivisa....leave-thailand/

Man, that takes me back to happier times, when JBs on Shi Da Road had Belhaven Stout and the best Scotch Eggs that side of midnight.

Edited April 20, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[onionluke]

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

I say re-build the wall. tile it on the north side, let the constant rain fill the waste lands north of the boarder with water which can then be pumped south and put the tp the useful end of keeping English lawns green.

I can see it now , polish brickies and tilers defecting to the Free North in the name of progress .

[buhi]

Well the topic has been side tracked, humour to release the tension, but for the bigger picture?

There are fanatics out there!

They fight for their tribe.

They excuse their vitriole and claim nationalism.

The muslims have taken over, well nearly and unless we act now the future is .........

I hope my team wins tomorrow; if they don't I"ll blame the ref!

[StreetCowboy]

Well the topic has been side tracked, humour to release the tension, but for the bigger picture?

There are fanatics out there!

They fight for their tribe.

They excuse their vitriole and claim nationalism.

The muslims have taken over, well nearly and unless we act now the future is .........

I hope my team wins tomorrow; if they don't I"ll blame the ref!

I take it you're not sat getting pissed in a muslim country like I am, just now

Until we stop blaming others for our problems (muslim terrorists, referees, the weather, nationalists, politicians, drunk drivers) we'll be forever stuck in that counter-productive rut of negativity. Let's face it - if you can't laugh in the face of adversity, whose face can you laugh in?

SC

[pastitche]

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

I say re-build the wall. tile it on the north side, let the constant rain fill the waste lands north of the boarder with water which can then be pumped south and put the tp the useful end of keeping English lawns green.

Bloody Geordies stole most of it to keep their sheep penned; I would not dream of suggesting that was for sexual purposes

[pastitche]

Well the topic has been side tracked, humour to release the tension, but for the bigger picture?

There are fanatics out there!

They fight for their tribe.

They excuse their vitriole and claim nationalism.

The muslims have taken over, well nearly and unless we act now the future is .........

I hope my team wins tomorrow; if they don't I"ll blame the ref!

I take it you're not sat getting pissed in a muslim country like I am, just now

Until we stop blaming others for our problems (muslim terrorists, referees, the weather, nationalists, politicians, drunk drivers) we'll be forever stuck in that counter-productive rut of negativity. Let's face it - if you can't laugh in the face of adversity, whose face can you laugh in?

SC

SC I hate to say this because it might hurt your reputation but you sometimes make salient points I wish I had

[StreetCowboy]

Well the topic has been side tracked, humour to release the tension, but for the bigger picture?

There are fanatics out there!

They fight for their tribe.

They excuse their vitriole and claim nationalism.

The muslims have taken over, well nearly and unless we act now the future is .........

I hope my team wins tomorrow; if they don't I"ll blame the ref!

I take it you're not sat getting pissed in a muslim country like I am, just now

Until we stop blaming others for our problems (muslim terrorists, referees, the weather, nationalists, politicians, drunk drivers) we'll be forever stuck in that counter-productive rut of negativity. Let's face it - if you can't laugh in the face of adversity, whose face can you laugh in?

SC

SC I hate to say this because it might hurt your reputation but you sometimes make salient points I wish I had

Generally, when someone else says something I wish I had, I just mumble "aye, 's right" for fear it goes to their head,

If I'm less pissed than I am now, I'd use a smaller font as well.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

I say re-build the wall. tile it on the north side, let the constant rain fill the waste lands north of the boarder with water which can then be pumped south and put the tp the useful end of keeping English lawns green.

Bloody Geordies stole most of it to keep their sheep penned; I would not dream of suggesting that was for sexual purposes

They thieve our wall, they thieve our stones, and then they shag our sheep? They're worse than scousers!

SC

Edit: Is this "tribalism" or "why did I leave Teesside?"

[pastitche]

I say rebuild the wall and let them run around in dresses and paint themselves blue to their hearts content

I say re-build the wall. tile it on the north side, let the constant rain fill the waste lands north of the boarder with water which can then be pumped south and put the tp the useful end of keeping English lawns green.

Bloody Geordies stole most of it to keep their sheep penned; I would not dream of suggesting that was for sexual purposes

They thieve our wall, they thieve our stones, and then they shag our sheep? They're worse than scousers!

SC

Edit: Is this "tribalism" or "why did I leave Teesside?"

Having lived in Tyneside I really don't think the Geordies were to blame entirely - it was probably the Makems. I have it on good authority that there were no Geordies until a Scotsman shagged a sheep. Is that tribalism?

When I was a kid we had snowball fights with the school next door - that's tribalism. But I went home on their bus because my mates went to that school and I sang along with the sectarian songs. That's Scottish or maybe just what most of us are like.

[StreetCowboy]

...

...

Bloody Geordies stole most of it to keep their sheep penned; I would not dream of suggesting that was for sexual purposes

They thieve our wall, they thieve our stones, and then they shag our sheep? They're worse than scousers!

SC

Edit: Is this "tribalism" or "why did I leave Teesside?"

Having lived in Tyneside I really don't think the Geordies were to blame entirely - it was probably the Makems. I have it on good authority that there were no Geordies until a Scotsman shagged a sheep. Is that tribalism?

When I was a kid we had snowball fights with the school next door - that's tribalism. But I went home on their bus because my mates went to that school and I sang along with the sectarian songs. That's Scottish or maybe just what most of us are like.

"When I was a kid"

I'd have tried to keep that one quiet, when I was making sheepshagging jokes...Bah!

SC

[theblether]

Well the topic has been side tracked, humour to release the tension, but for the bigger picture?

There are fanatics out there!

They fight for their tribe.

They excuse their vitriole and claim nationalism.

The muslims have taken over, well nearly and unless we act now the future is .........

I hope my team wins tomorrow; if they don't I"ll blame the ref!

Guesthouse is by far and away one of the most intelligent and insightful members on TV. His post was comical and designed to raise the ire of the Scottish membership, including myself.

Guesthouse will be along shortly to acknowledge that he dreads the break up of the UK as he knows that England was a non-entity fringe nation before unification with the Scots, and without the Scots they will fly off the map of international relevance.

Every intelligent Englishman knows that. To be honest with you though, we Scots wont take a blind bit of notice of them when the referendum comes along as their opinion is worthless.We will decide off our own backs whether to keep subsiding and supporting that failing region. I think we will decide to do so, as contrary to opinion we dont hate the English. You cant hate that which you pity.

...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

By the way, did you know that some ( many ) Englishman actually thinks their country still exists?? It disappeared off the world map in 1707 and some of these deluded souls still havent noticed.

[Soutpeel]

They're worse than scousers!

SC

Edit: Is this "tribalism" or "why did I leave Teesside?"

Of course they are...they hung a monkey....even a scouser aint that stupid

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah...I like tribalism as then there is no question regarding football teams and etc...the folks they will ask: 'where are you from then, tutsi?...' and I just say 'Pasadena' and, if they are cool then they will say: 'say, blood...'...

no further interaction is then required...no muss nor fuss...

the thai wife understands but the 5'11" girlfriend who was from Philadelphia never did...and I often bicker with me sister but when the shit comes down we are shoulder to shoulder...and she is a lot bigger and meaner than I am...