What If Requirements Are Set Higher For Retirement, Ed Visa Etc....

[Orac]

Logic would suggest that the amount should increase for everyone and not just new applicants since it is there to cover living costs for a year which tend to increase for everyone. Another issue that might rock the boat is healthcare as there were reports recently of an increasing number of people being hospitalised without the means or insurance to cover the costs with suggestions of compulsory healthcare cover being required which would be very difficult for some.

Fortunately very little that happens here is logical.

[CMX]

Sophon,

Oh. Thanks a lot. I hadn't thought of that for some reason. Duh.

HelloDolly,

Only by twisting the English language could we turn truth into a pretzel in order to arrive illegal aliens for folks who arrive in the States the way virtually all of our ancestors did - without permission ahead of time. French call their similar visitors 'without papers' - a far better description of folks trying to improve their lot in life, or that of their families.

Alien suggests more than simply another country too (another planet or foreign thinking), and to name a person an illegal all but suggests convicted felonious conduct. The term "illegal alien" itself is filled with entitlement (my parents beat yours here, so I'm deserve to be here and you cannot), fear (you might work more cheaply, or do a better job), unreality (produce prices will go up a lot if we clear the fields), and prejudice (they're all a bunch of thieves). Some of the finest people I've ever known in the States were there without papers. Churchgoers too, for those who judge that way.

Overall, the answer to OP is in any case the decision of the Thai people as expressed by their lawmakers or whoever is making laws that season; I only have to obey with the spirit and the letter of the law. So long as police catch wrongdoers in either case, I don't see the reason for alarm, here or there.

[Ulysses G.]

Fortunately very little that happens here is logical.

That would be very difficult to argue with.

[Mapguy]

Interesting discussion! Tightening up immigration regulations and enforcement may indeed be of increasing concern.

Orac speculated above (#61) that an increasing number of people are seeking hospital care but don't have the ability to pay. I have heard the same thing and wouldn't be at all surprised if it is true. That would be because (probably reasonable to say) that there are a number of expats of increasing years in Chiang Mai living on very small incomes, and many pension incomes shrink due to inflation and currency rate changes! So what happens when someone suffers more than routine aches and pains?

What thread on this forum would be complete without a gratuitous jab at "Thai logic!" "Grandfathering" has deep roots in common law, and I doubt Thailand will see an Idi Amin come along who summarily pitches us bastards out!

There is quite understandable as well as logical Thai concern with what to do with indigent farang. Who will pay their bills? Why should Thai medical services absorb the expense? Foreigners (excluding historically those fleeing conflict from China, Burma, Laos, and Cambodia) have basically made their own independent decisions to come here. Some stay here legally, some illegally.

The barriers to immigration are actually higher in many countries. An example would be New Zealand. I suspect that if you take a look at countries with national health services, you might find more concern and limitations having to do with older people who wish to immigrate.

Since this is an Anglophone site, it should be noted --- irony of ironies --- that there are thousands of Americans and British in Thailand (Should Australians be included, as well?) who, as expatriates, are finding that there are increasingly severe constraints on services provided for them in their home countries. Many appear to be whinging about Thailand!

If you have read this forum for a while, you may have noticed that when an issue such as immigration comes up, there are often posts that strongly favor individual choice over social responsibility, a utilitarian view. The libertarians range from those who say "It's not my business or concern that others are law breakers" to those who as much as say "I'll do what I dam_n well please, thank you!" They aren't just here. You can just visit a few local pubs for a chat. When it comes to abiding by visa regulations, some individualists have an intense interest in how to dodge them to suit themselves. There are educational visa scams, retirement income scams, just to name two notoriously common areas which attract at least periodic concern of Immigration authorities. Some of these individuals may be good blokes. So what ?! Instead, what if, collectively, they cause such a problem that it affects the welfare of those respectful social utilitarians who abide by the rules. The Thai government might just get fed up and mandate stiffer immigration requirements and more strenuous enforcement.

Some make the argument that Thailand profits from immigration because of the boost to the economy. Many bargirls and golf caddies, local foodstuff, would no doubt agree with this view, as would importers of western food. Anyway, yes, over the years there have been Thai efforts to take a page or two from Singapore's successful immigration and investment laws to attract capital, but, if you have spent any time in Singapore over the years, I doubt you have encountered the economic dregs of farangdom who have immigrated to Thailand. Now, before the solid citizens (should I say "guests" of Thailand) among us rise up to whack my pate soundly, I expect there is certainly some positive impact economically. I wonder how sizable that contribution is by very few relative to a population of some 75 million. And I expect a sizable chunk of private farang enterprise here is in the informal economy which does not pay for national health here or pick up the bill for indigent foreigners.

So who does pay the bills of indigent farang? Some governments help, at least in a pinch, to some extent, mainly to help the down and out make contacts back home with family or friends to get help. If you've been to the Expats Club recently, you've heard about Lanna Care Net, a group of farang helping farang, but according to their brochure they don't provide financial assistance. They sound like a volunteer version of another service promoted at the Expats club that you pay for or buy insurance from. You had better have the wherewithal. Then, there are the British Legion and the American Veterans of Foreign Wars, but not everyone would be eligible, would they? Churches? Certainly they must help. How much I do not know.

Who else is around to help? Perhaps the libertarians in our midst on this forum might consider that question, seriously consider it.

[TommoPhysicist]

Rather than compulsory health insurance for ex-pats (good luck to those over 70).

How about compulsory euthanasia for foreigners who can't pay their hospital/medical bills.

That gives everyone the chance to make their own decisions for the future.

And gets rid of the rubbish fairly easily. (I'm happy to be included in the rubbish)

[Mapguy]

Rather than compulsory health insurance for ex-pats (good luck to those over 70).

How about compulsory euthanasia for foreigners who can't pay their hospital/medical bills.

That gives everyone the chance to make their own decisions for the future.

And gets rid of the rubbish fairly easily. (I'm happy to be included in the rubbish)

A little black humour, I suppose!

[Lifer]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

I agree. Only a fool would lie to an officer of the U.S. government. That is how they have taken down many, many of it's citizens including some high profile ones with the best lawyers money can buy; not the underlying crime or act, but lying about it to the government. Perjury is a serious crime and there are many prosecutions and convictions every year. And of course Immigration can ask as they please to prove up.

Furthermore, I had to prove more than most in order to get my O-A Visa that I extend each year; including proof that I'm not a criminal, proof of over a million THB (or whatever the requirement was 5 years ago) in investments or cash, medical certificate, etc., etc. So I don't see the farce at all. Indeed it is more jealousy than anything.

Mr. Udonguy seems to think us Yank are all liers and cheats, and that there are many falsifying the documents. Little does he really have a clue to the consequences if caught, or his random off the cuff evaluation of the Yanks. I can't begin to guess where he or she is from. Maybe where he is from they do things like that. So not a farce at all. I imagine many who now have to pay $50 for the 5 minute piece of paper at the Consulate (that's the farce) have now (guessing only) switched to getting the $5 - $6 piece of paper from the bank. I have because it's more convenient and will go back to the affidavit if I need to show more income.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Lifer

[Mapguy]

Read McGriffith's post (#49) carefully !! The part about the law, that is!

I hope this thread does not become a out-and-out flag waving pissing contest. There are honest immigrants of all nationalities. It would seem, unfortunately, that cheating of various kinds has no national boundaries either.

[udonguy]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

I agree. Only a fool would lie to an officer of the U.S. government. That is how they have taken down many, many of it's citizens including some high profile ones with the best lawyers money can buy; not the underlying crime or act, but lying about it to the government. Perjury is a serious crime and there are many prosecutions and convictions every year. And of course Immigration can ask as they please to prove up.

Furthermore, I had to prove more than most in order to get my O-A Visa that I extend each year; including proof that I'm not a criminal, proof of over a million THB (or whatever the requirement was 5 years ago) in investments or cash, medical certificate, etc., etc. So I don't see the farce at all. Indeed it is more jealousy than anything.

Mr. Udonguy seems to think us Yank are all liers and cheats, and that there are many falsifying the documents. Little does he really have a clue to the consequences if caught, or his random off the cuff evaluation of the Yanks. I can't begin to guess where he or she is from. Maybe where he is from they do things like that. So not a farce at all. I imagine many who now have to pay $50 for the 5 minute piece of paper at the Consulate (that's the farce) have now (guessing only) switched to getting the $5 - $6 piece of paper from the bank. I have because it's more convenient and will go back to the affidavit if I need to show more income.

I have never suggested yanks are all liers and cheats and you have not read my post carefully. I DID suggest I know SOME Americans who think it's a farce and happily go along and swear whatever to stay here and that this is far less stringent than the Europeans who have to produce EVIDENCE in the form of three months bank statements to get the letter. AND I suggested it would be fairer to have the same system for ALL.

[Jingthing]

There is the same system for all. The income letter from the embassies is the income proof needed. If you are suggesting the Thai government should have any power over foreign embassies and their internal policies, give us a break!

[udonguy]

There is the same system for all. The income letter from the embassies is the income proof needed. If you are suggesting the Thai government should have any power over foreign embassies and their internal policies, give us a break!

here we go, it is patently obvious it is not the same system when the income letter is backed up by no evidence and what is this 'income proof'? that a US citizen say's it is? I have already mentioned that I know friends who are 'creative' and I have mentioned Europeans are judged by a different standard as they have to produce three months bank statements. I know you have it easy and good for you, lucky for you but at least be honest in debating it.

[Jingthing]

There is the same system for all. The income letter from the embassies is the income proof needed. If you are suggesting the Thai government should have any power over foreign embassies and their internal policies, give us a break!

here we go, it is patently obvious it is not the same system when the income letter is backed up by no evidence and what is this 'income proof'? that a US citizen say's it is? I have already mentioned that I know friends who are 'creative' and I have mentioned Europeans are judged by a different standard as they have to produce three months bank statements. I know you have it easy and good for you, lucky for you but at least be honest in debating it.

Its the same system at the Thai immigration office. I find your obsession with this offensive. It's not really your business to make Thai law perfectly "fair" for every living soul. For an American to lie on these forms is a major violation of American law. To present a false letter to Thai immigration is a major violation of Thai law. Let it go. The U.S. is NOT the only country with this so called issue anyway. Stop picking on Americans. BTW, I don't have anything easy as I don't use an income letter. Edited May 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

I find your obsession with this offensive.

You really need to develop thicker skin.

BTW, I generally agree with you on this. Americans could find themselve in quite a jam if they're found to have lied on this form.

[udonguy]

There is the same system for all. The income letter from the embassies is the income proof needed. If you are suggesting the Thai government should have any power over foreign embassies and their internal policies, give us a break!

here we go, it is patently obvious it is not the same system when the income letter is backed up by no evidence and what is this 'income proof'? that a US citizen say's it is? I have already mentioned that I know friends who are 'creative' and I have mentioned Europeans are judged by a different standard as they have to produce three months bank statements. I know you have it easy and good for you, lucky for you but at least be honest in debating it.

Its the same system at the Thai immigration office. I find your obsession with this offensive. It's not really your business to make Thai law perfectly "fair" for every living soul. For an American to lie on these forms is a major violation of American law. To present a false letter to Thai immigration is a major violation of Thai law. Let it go. The U.S. is NOT the only country with this so called issue anyway. Stop picking on Americans. BTW, I don't have anything easy as I don't use an income letter.

i dont use the income letter either if you had read an earlier post it was just an observation BTW you get 'offended' very easily. I have noticed in many threads your 'sensitivity' to your own opinions

[Jingthing]

Foreigners making an effort to "help" the Thai police police us foreigners more intensively totally rubs me the wrong way, with no apologies. A bit Stockholm Syndrome, a bit Thai-ier than Thai. They are police. They will do what they will. It will never be 100 percent fair.

Cheers.

[letitbe]

For those who really want to be here there are ways.

I am 50+

Live here 100% legal under the Thai laws

Don't have 800,000 Bt. in the bank

Work legal,

And live a much better life style than were I came from on 15,000 - 20,000 Baht a month (for 3 peple)

And on my visa I don't have to do 90 days check ins or even go near immigration.

If you want to be here you just need to do some reserch and find what works for you

LOL I'm sure you are joking about living on 10-15K for 3 peple (or people). There is an old guy in my moobaan who lives on 15,000 and it is pathetic the way he lives.

I'd be interested to know what visa lets you live here legally on 15K per month.

we are a family of 4 the school fees alone at a reasonable not most expensive are around 400,000 baht a year for 2 or around 35,000 baht a month once transport and bits are added Then add a car or in our case 2 and that adds another 20,000 a month at least just for insurance petrol servicing. Then add 10-20,000 baht a month for medical needs for 4 on average and that even before food electricity and rest. Even our maid can hardly survive with her family of 3 with a combined family income of around 20-25,000 baht a month and she pays no rent her family do not drink and they never go out have no air con or luxuries. Her child's fees for school transport and books uniform lunch and rest eat at least 3,000 baht a month and thats with no school fees. Its nonsense and cant be done other than merely survive on 15,000 a month for 3 and that assumes no rent no car no medical and no drinking.

[udonguy]

Foreigners making an effort to "help" the Thai police police us foreigners more intensively totally rubs me the wrong way, with no apologies. A bit Stockholm Syndrome, a bit Thai-ier than Thai. They are police. They will do what they will. It will never be 100 percent fair.

Cheers.

your're up the wrong tree there JingThing (is it you R****e?) I was just observing and am happy for all to find 'whatever means' to live the life they want to live here

cheers

[elektrified]

we are a family of 4 the school fees alone at a reasonable not most expensive are around 400,000 baht a year for 2 or around 35,000 baht a month once transport and bits are added Then add a car or in our case 2 and that adds another 20,000 a month at least just for insurance petrol servicing. Then add 10-20,000 baht a month for medical needs for 4 on average and that even before food electricity and rest. Even our maid can hardly survive with her family of 3 with a combined family income of around 20-25,000 baht a month and she pays no rent her family do not drink and they never go out have no air con or luxuries. Her child's fees for school transport and books uniform lunch and rest eat at least 3,000 baht a month and thats with no school fees. Its nonsense and cant be done other than merely survive on 15,000 a month for 3 and that assumes no rent no car no medical and no drinking.

Of course. It's total rubbish. Our maid and her family of 4 live on 30K per month and she is barely getting by. She has her kids in private school and drives a 2 year old car. She collects plastic bottles to raise additional cash to live on.

[Mapguy]

Give it rest, fellows!! Perhaps read the original post! Why not PM each other to arrange to meet at dawn someplace and have it out by slinging noodles at one another !!

[mcgriffith]

Yeah, we probably need to cool it down a bit.

Really the whole issue of Thai Immigration requirements being raised is a hot button issue that affects many.

There is certainly unfairness in the sense that some gov'ts ask for more verification, and to add insult to injury, charge considerably more for an income verification letter.

So those aggrieved individuals who are from such a country should take it up with their Ministry of Foreign Affairs as to why they are treated like presumed criminals (apparently a sworn statement is not enough) and should also ask why they are gouged mercilessly in the fee they have to pay, after being subjugated to the previous indignity.

And we won't mention how this un-named country out-sources some consular services to a for-profit company, and sends your passport off to some former colony whose initials are H and K. Good luck getting it back in a month.

Enough to make you want to renounce citizenship, and become an American.

[Mapguy]

Yeah, we probably need to cool it down a bit.

Really the whole issue of Thai Immigration requirements being raised is a hot button issue that affects many.

There is certainly unfairness in the sense that some gov'ts ask for more verification, and to add insult to injury, charge considerably more for an income verification letter.

So those aggrieved individuals who are from such a country should take it up with their Ministry of Foreign Affairs as to why they are treated like presumed criminals (apparently a sworn statement is not enough) and should also ask why they are gouged mercilessly in the fee they have to pay, after being subjugated to the previous indignity.

And we won't mention how this un-named country out-sources some consular services to a for-profit company, and sends your passport off to some former colony whose initials are H and K. Good luck getting it back in a month.

Enough to make you want to renounce citizenship, and become an American.

An American ?!

Edited May 1, 2012 by Mapguy

[mcgriffith]

OK, go Canadian, if that makes you feel better. My father was Canadian.

As a US citizen, I personally don't find the process all that easy even though I do use an income statement letter from the US Consulate. I've always been aware that they can ask for verification of the stated income and always bring that documentation with me every time I go to CM Imm. Never been asked for it to date.

I use the combo method. 400K in a fixed deposit acct, and the letter stating my true other income, which is more than the balance needed, but less than 65K/month.

I have other cash assets here well in excess of xx mil that I don't declare, as it is not necessary to do so for purposes of a simple retirement extension.

Look, we all know that there are many marginal people here. Of all nationalities. Let's not fixate on one or another because of various differences between the way embassies and consulates process income verification letters for Thai immigration authorities.

Truce?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Truce?

I rather enjoy another round of traditional Thaivisa verbal class warfare to be honest. It's really very entertaining. I can equally chuckle at people claiming to need only 15K as those that claim their maid makes twice that, and that they themselves would wither at anything less than 300K a month.

[hellodolly]

Truce?

I rather enjoy another round of traditional Thaivisa verbal class warfare to be honest. It's really very entertaining. I can equally chuckle at people claiming to need only 15K as those that claim their maid makes twice that, and that they themselves would wither at anything less than 300K a month.

Yes it is interesting to read the my dick is bigger than your dick stories ot the I live very comgterble on next to nothing stories.

Wasent it stated with documentation what happened last time the standards were raised where fot the exsistijng retiree's it was grandfathered in.

By the way did I mention my driver/gardener and his wife my maid barley scrape by on the same income I get. Mind you they are putting there four kids through collage,

[WinnieTheKhwai]

barley scrape by on the same income

Add some hops and I'll scrape by on nothing else.

[hellodolly]

barley scrape by on the same income

Add some hops and I'll scrape by on nothing else.

Some times I just hate my spell checker. It fails to put that red squiggly line through the words.

but just for you I will give it a shot

Mods can you add hops to my last post This will be a special favor for WTK

Edited May 2, 2012 by hellodolly

[Naam]

Yes it is interesting to read the my dick is bigger than your dick stories ot the I live very comgterble on next to nothing stories.

Wasent it stated with documentation what happened last time the standards were raised where fot the exsistijng retiree's it was grandfathered in.

By the way did I mention my driver/gardener and his wife my maid barley scrape by on the same income I get. Mind you they are putting there four kids through collage,

you mean they don't live "comgterble"? what a shame!

[jackr]

And we won't mention how this un-named country out-sources some consular services to a for-profit company, and sends your passport off to some former colony whose initials are H and K. Good luck getting it back in a month.

Enough to make you want to renounce citizenship, and become an American.

Not quite as bad as being chased around the world by big brother for income tax when one doesn't even reside in one's country, eh what what!

[Lifer]

This topic has been milked a long time! All the fussing over something that may not happen, or happen for a long time.

[mcgriffith]

And we won't mention how this un-named country out-sources some consular services to a for-profit company, and sends your passport off to some former colony whose initials are H and K. Good luck getting it back in a month.

Enough to make you want to renounce citizenship, and become an American.

Not quite as bad as being chased around the world by big brother for income tax when one doesn't even reside in one's country, eh what what!

Agree 100% Dave; only developed country in the world that pulls this <deleted>.

However, it is somewhat mitigated in that they allow the first ~$92,000 USD from overseas earnings to be exempt.

This just illustrates again my point. Laws are different everywhere, and many of them are completely unfair, stupid and ill conceived.

Let's not all be at each other's throats because Mr. X gets one kind of letter for Thai Imm, and Mr. Y gets another kind of letter that he has to jump through multiple hoops to obtain.

We all get beaten up by our respective bureaucracy, no matter our national origin.