What If Requirements Are Set Higher For Retirement, Ed Visa Etc....

[Jingthing]

True, that over the years the Immigration requirements for 50 plus year olds long stay visas have been what they call grandfathered.

But in the future this may well change as more farangs coming into the country are abusing the laws and system, which could mean a tightening up of visa regulations, and more conditions including increased financial burdens added to the present visa requirements.

Anything could change anywhere. Most countries don't even have ANY retirement visa program.

In any case, lets not upset the oldsters with idle speculation.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Jingthing

[Beetlejuice]

True, that over the years the Immigration requirements for 50 plus year olds long stay visas have been what they call grandfathered.

But in the future this may well change as more farangs coming into the country are abusing the laws and system, which could mean a tightening up of visa regulations, and more conditions including increased financial burdens added to the present visa requirements.

Anything could change anywhere. Most countries don't even have ANY retirement visa program.

In any case, lets not upset the oldsters with idle speculation.

Having family working within the police force in Chiang Mai, I am kept pretty well informed as what’s going on in the area.

I can tell you that there are a record number of foreigners now held in Thai jails all over the country, incarcerated for all manner of various offences and crimes, all at the expense of the Thai tax payers, including violations of the Immigration regulations, which involve over stayers, scams, illegal businesses in drugs and prostitution, crooked land and property speculation dealing and so on.

The problem is that the Thai authorities are not adequately budgeted and do not have the resources required for the policing of foreigners in Thailand that includes the additional administrative costs to accommodate more visa applicants at Immigration departments. This is especially evident in Chiang Mai, which is presently experiencing an influx of foreigners moving into the city. This means that it is likely Immigration will place more requirements on visa applicants in order to try and reduce those numbers who qualify for long stay here and will probably increase the fees for visa applicants in order to claw in more cash to meet the higher costs involved for staff and to facilitate the applicants.

The tightening up of Immigration regulations and more intense enforcements of the existing laws is not idle speculation for reasons I have described above, so be prepared because there maybe some major changes coming our way soon.

[flying]

In answer to the OP's question, yes I guess anything is possible.

I agree anything is possible ....but for now I do not see any real reasons it would be higher

that 400/800K

Since that money is supposedly to ensure you can live the one year the visa is good for.

Of course if the cost of living went way up in Thailand I would expect them to

raise the $$$ requirement for that same reasons.

Side Note: Like the new avatar mcgriffith

[Naam]

This means that it is likely Immigration will place more requirements on visa applicants in order to try and reduce those numbers who qualify for long stay here and will probably increase the fees for visa applicants in order to claw in more cash to meet the higher costs involved for staff and to facilitate the applicants.

if they want to "claw in more cash" they should abandon the requirement which causes silly visa runs and charge an equivalent amount of money for visa renewals.

[richard10365]

I think the answer is, if they raised the requirements to stay, and you did not meet these requirements, then you would have to leave.

[udonguy]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

[moe666]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

[elektrified]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

I agree. Only a fool would lie to an officer of the U.S. government. That is how they have taken down many, many of it's citizens including some high profile ones with the best lawyers money can buy; not the underlying crime or act, but lying about it to the government. Perjury is a serious crime and there are many prosecutions and convictions every year. And of course Immigration can ask as they please to prove up.

Furthermore, I had to prove more than most in order to get my O-A Visa that I extend each year; including proof that I'm not a criminal, proof of over a million THB (or whatever the requirement was 5 years ago) in investments or cash, medical certificate, etc., etc. So I don't see the farce at all. Indeed it is more jealousy than anything.

Edited April 30, 2012 by elektrified

[TommoPhysicist]

Well I for one believe that as the cost of living is always going up it is inevitable that they will change the requirements.

But I really don't see it happening soon.

They only change the rules for NEW applicants.

Those already using the extension are subject to the rules from the time they first applied.

So not a worry for those of us who live here full-time, only a worry for those who duck in and out.

[Jingthing]

Well I for one believe that as the cost of living is always going up it is inevitable that they will change the requirements.

But I really don't see it happening soon.

They only change the rules for NEW applicants.

Those already using the extension are subject to the rules from the time they first applied.

So not a worry for those of us who live here full-time, only a worry for those who duck in and out.

That assumption is based on past policies. There are no guarantees that future changes will always include grandfathering clauses. Hopefully, yes.

[TommoPhysicist]

The problem is that the Thai authorities are not adequately budgeted and do not have the resources required for the policing of foreigners in Thailand that includes the additional administrative costs to accommodate more visa applicants at Immigration departments. This is especially evident in Chiang Mai, which is presently experiencing an influx of foreigners moving into the city. This means that it is likely Immigration will place more requirements on visa applicants in order to try and reduce those numbers who qualify for long stay here and will probably increase the fees for visa applicants in order to claw in more cash to meet the higher costs involved for staff and to facilitate the applicants.

More applicants brings in more money, this is not a free government service but a profitable business.

Can you imagine a bar or restaurant upping prices because they have too many customers.

As for foreigners in jail, they usually find ways to make money out of them too!

[Jingthing]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

I agree. Only a fool would lie to an officer of the U.S. government. That is how they have taken down many, many of it's citizens including some high profile ones with the best lawyers money can buy; not the underlying crime or act, but lying about it to the government. Perjury is a serious crime and there are many prosecutions and convictions every year. And of course Immigration can ask as they please to prove up.

Furthermore, I had to prove more than most in order to get my O-A Visa that I extend each year; including proof that I'm not a criminal, proof of over a million THB (or whatever the requirement was 5 years ago) in investments or cash, medical certificate, etc., etc. So I don't see the farce at all. Indeed it is more jealousy than anything.

I agree Americans would be foolish to lie to their government but lets not be too naive, it happens. On tax forms ... a lot. Also starting with the more rigorous O-A application is optional.

[TommoPhysicist]

Actually 800K in the bank is something I dream of too. Tip: Don't have kids.

I think what you mean to say is, don't pander to your antiquated western ideas of how to bring up kids.

Bringing up your kids as Thais is cheap as chips (actually maybe I should say cheap as sticky rice)

[bluweyze]

The cost of living is only going up dramatically for those wanting 'farang' everything.

Very true. Though I would also be the first to admit that I (and likely many others) actually require at least a couple 'farang somethings'. In my case that applies specifically when it comes to the kids, their schooling, healthcare, transportation, food, hobbies.. A a car and a child safety seat is a Farang Something. Health insurance is a Farang Something. Taking kids to ballet class is a Farang Something, and so on. When it comes to my own requirements though, I'm perfectly happy at the level I was at in the 1990's. Just about all of my best experiences in Thailand didn't involve any money to speak of.

800,000 in the bank is something most Thai's dream of, I don't see why we should need so much.

Actually 800K in the bank is something I dream of too. Tip: Don't have kids.

Indeed. Yes it does seem impossible to save any money once you have kids. It's close to impossible as they always require some large expenditure. But I don't see how the health insurance or schooling is a 'farang something' since most Thais from the lower-middle-class on up have these expenditures too. Even the poorest families have to pay something to send their kids school, even though it may be only 5,000 THB per term.

State schooling is free in Thailand plus they receive a uniform and book grant, small though it may be. If there is a charge I guess it is pre-school. University is charged but depending on the course only around 10,000 per year. Many middle-class Thai's pay for education outside of the state sector.

[onthedarkside]

Ok, an inflammatory post and the equally inflammatory reply removed. Keep it polite ladies & gentlemen, thank you.

[DowntownAl]

Hope the sky doesn't fall

[Boifromoz]

There is a very anti-farang climate in government, laws change faster than times i eat per day, I always tell people wanting to move to Thailand is NEVER cut off you life in ur home country!!!

[udonguy]

I have a friend on an old 'investment visa' which only requires 'proof' of 'investment' (i.e. no 800k tied up) so he shows he owns an expensive condo and that - as they say - is that

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

Why is it a farce, if you are caught out you could face some legal condequence and donot forget immigration can and has asked for proof of what one swears too. I know your just jealous

because it relies on people 'telling the truth' and I know several Americans who think it's a farce too! swearing you earn such and such - and, yes, it's unfair on the rest of us who have to honestly PROVE we have the income

[mcgriffith]

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

With all due respect-

I think there is a mistaken belief among some that because the US Embassy/Consulate only certifies a sworn statement as to income (we term it a "notorized statement") that somehow there is this vast community of heathen colonials who have not a farthing to their name.

First an explanation of US law. The US Dept of State has this policy, because they are not Big Brother. They ask citizens to state their income for Thai Immigration, and they certify the statement. Under US law, this is all they are allowed to do. They (quite rightly in my opinion) put the burden of certifying income on the entity (Thai Immigration, that moves the goal posts on a constant basis), that wants this information. So to recap...you go to the Consulate, you claim $ XYZ income, you get a letter. Thai Immigration has to verify that income.

This is not unique to the US. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that this policy is identical with 2 other Commonwealth countries that have large populations here- namely Canada and Australia.

Secondly, I probably know about 100-150 expats here in CM. I'm a nightlife person, and have met many of the posters here on this forum informally in my meanderings. Brits, Aussies, French, Germans, Italians, Americans, Dutch, Belgians; you name it.

I would venture a guess that there are far fewer Americans living in dire circumstances, who are lying about stated income, than other nationalities. I'm not just saying this- really I haven't met ONE American who is here in poverty. Most seem to be quite well off- gov't and/or private pension, social security income, have a house/condo, drive a car, etc. And no, I'm not counting the snowbirds and drifters who live in certain districts and patronize certain bars who are here only a few months; they don't count. They're here on visa exempt or tourist visas- non-entities for this discussion.

Just because the US Dept of State does not verify, only notarizes a sworn statement from a citizen, does not make all Americans deadbeats.

Your humble servant,

McG

[udonguy]

on a wider note getting rid of some of the 'less economically viable' expats would not be such a bad thing and as for the Yanks who only have to 'swear' they have the income well that's a farce

With all due respect-

I think there is a mistaken belief among some that because the US Embassy/Consulate only certifies a sworn statement as to income (we term it a "notorized statement") that somehow there is this vast community of heathen colonials who have not a farthing to their name.

First an explanation of US law. The US Dept of State has this policy, because they are not Big Brother. They ask citizens to state their income for Thai Immigration, and they certify the statement. Under US law, this is all they are allowed to do. They (quite rightly in my opinion) put the burden of certifying income on the entity (Thai Immigration, that moves the goal posts on a constant basis), that wants this information. So to recap...you go to the Consulate, you claim $ XYZ income, you get a letter. Thai Immigration has to verify that income.

This is not unique to the US. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that this policy is identical with 2 other Commonwealth countries that have large populations here- namely Canada and Australia.

Secondly, I probably know about 100-150 expats here in CM. I'm a nightlife person, and have met many of the posters here on this forum informally in my meanderings. Brits, Aussies, French, Germans, Italians, Americans, Dutch, Belgians; you name it.

I would venture a guess that there are far fewer Americans living in dire circumstances, who are lying about stated income, than other nationalities. I'm not just saying this- really I haven't met ONE American who is here in poverty. Most seem to be quite well off- gov't and/or private pension, social security income, have a house/condo, drive a car, etc. And no, I'm not counting the snowbirds and drifters who live in certain districts and patronize certain bars who are here only a few months; they don't count. They're here on visa exempt or tourist visas- non-entities for this discussion.

Just because the US Dept of State does not verify, only notarizes a sworn statement from a citizen, does not make all Americans deadbeats.

Your humble servant,

McG

There was no suggestion about 'deadbeats' but I personally know of some Americans who are 'creative' for their own reasons - not necessarily that they have no money. But leaving this aside would it not be fairer for ALL farang to have the same system?

if Brits choose the income route (I do not - so this is not a personal dig) they have to produce three months bank statements to get the letter - why? I'm surprised the Thais accept less and would be less surprised if this is an area they tightned up eventually - requiring PROOF of income - makes sense to me at any rate.

[Jingthing]

This "crackdown" already happened awhile back, starting in Bangkok. There were some reports of Americans and other non-proof nationalities getting special treatment at that time and being openly told why (the issues mentioned on this thread which is ancient news to immigration). This went on for a few months MAX. Then it stopped. The reality is that it is too much overhead for Thai immigration officers to get involved with. Consider the myriad of ways that people might "prove" their income and the potential complexity. This has already passed. These dire predictions are about something that already happened and then went away. Given that this crackdown amounted to nothing, where is the logic it will come back? Answer. There is no logic.

I say worry about things that are actually happening NOW and worry about changes in the future ... in the future. Because they either won't happen at all or if they do happen they could be a temporary show thing that fades quickly.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[CMX]

I wonder at this anti-'American' business regarding the letter.

Thing takes five minutes but costs $50 U.S. = 1535 baht. We read lately here that it's wise to fetch along recent proofs as well, though perhaps printed recent bank statements showing income and sources might do. (This is simply advice from other expats, not yet a rule.)

Prior to that letter, the citizen (in the U.S. in the original application) had to submit notarized docs from financial institutions proving a steady flow of assured income, such as 'social security' and/or government pensions equal to 800,000 baht per year - or keep such an amount in a Thai bank, or a combination. Plus notarized police report (with seal, in my case) demonstrating no convictions for felonious conduct.

So I assume Brits are objecting whinging because they imagine these demonstrated incomes have stopped? Or that the Thai embassy or consulates have erred? How often?

Doesn't matter: Our answer to OP's question earns 4 results (if we're not grandfathered and no longer can comply):

A. Return to home country

B. Move to another dreamland, perhaps in Central or South America - or a neighboring nation to Thailand.

C. Save up enough in a bank to cover the annual shortfall; admittedly financial obligations such as raising children might make this a stretch.

However, note that with D - raising the standards of income or savings stored here, strictly enforced, would rid us of our upper levels of riffraff, lesser Cheap Charlies, high rabble, and floating hoi palloi. Might empty out and bankrupt ThVi, however, and I'd certainly have to make a new plan.

Edited April 30, 2012 by CMX

[jackr]

800,000 in the bank is something most Thai's dream of, I don't see why we should need so much.

It's to keep out the riffraff, but unfortunately doesn't seem to have worked.

Op: can't remember what the retirement requirement was previously, but the marriage ext' went from 240 to 400 about 8 years ago.

[Ulysses G.]

I've been here for a good while and don't remember anyone who could not figure out a way to stay if they wanted to and had enough money to eat and rent a room. That is one of the things that I like about Thailand and one reason I do not look down on those who have to think of creative ways to satisfy the immigration authorities.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I've been here for a good while and don't remember anyone who could not figure out a way to stay if they wanted to and had enough money to eat and rent a room.

Sounds like a crackdown is in order.. Although some of the scum actually does seem to have money, and some of the bums are decent people. I wonder if there is a non-wealth-based way to keep out the idiots. Require everyone to pass a test on Thai language and culture perhaps; that would weed out those who are just here for the free (cheap) ride and to take advantage.

[Ulysses G.]

Yes and of course the language and culture skills should be set exactly at my level. Anyone below my score should be booted out of the country.

[hellodolly]

I've been here for a good while and don't remember anyone who could not figure out a way to stay if they wanted to and had enough money to eat and rent a room. That is one of the things that I like about Thailand and one reason I do not look down on those who have to think of creative ways to satisfy the immigration authorities.

Is that stay here legally? You are sounding like the illegal aliens in the states trying to justify themselves.

Have you never met any of these people who have figured out how to stay here with out a visa when they are caught and do not have the money to return home munch less pay the fine? Most of them are here for the seedier side of life.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not talking about people who do not have visas. The folks that I am referring to have visas, but not necessarily one year retirement/marriage/business visas. I am not talking about overstayers (although that is their business and not mine).

Edited May 1, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[hellodolly]

I am not talking about people who do not have visas. The folks that I am referring to have visas, but not necessarily one year retirement/marriage/business visas. I am not talking about overstayers (although that is their business and not mine).

My understanding was that they were going to crack down on holders of education visas who never learn any thing year after year, Heard of one fellow who had been here 7 years on learning Thai Tha visa's and still can not speak Thai. But can direct you to a good number of bars and bordellos.

[Sophon]

Prior to that letter, the citizen (in the U.S. in the original application) had to submit notarized docs from financial institutions proving a steady flow of assured income, such as 'social security' and/or government pensions equal to 800,000 baht per year - or keep such an amount in a Thai bank, or a combination. Plus notarized police report (with seal, in my case) demonstrating no convictions for felonious conduct.

So I assume Brits are objecting whinging because they imagine these demonstrated incomes have stopped? Or that the Thai embassy or consulates have erred? How often?

You seem to believe that the only way towards retirement extensions is to start with a Non Immigrant O-A visa from your home country. This is not the case, you can also start with a Non Immigrant O or Tourist visa (or even a visa exempt entry), non of which require proof of income or police report. So many (most IMHO) people will not have demonstrated income before arriving in Thailand.

Sophon