Middle Class In Thailand

[YipYipYa123]

What about the market stall owner in patpong etc who sells funny t-shirts?

Possibly has no formal qualifications, but is smart enough to run a good business

He could be raking in more cash on a weekend than someone with a high powerEd degree makes in a week or month

He doesn't fit into the typical high class because hes not got formal education but he is smart and wealthy and entrepreneurial, even successful in his own way......

What class is he in?

[TommoPhysicist]

What class is he in?

He is lower class along with everyone else who works market stalls.

[elektrified]

Just by eyeing things I would guess the typical income around here to be 20k-30k/month. They're not poor as much as some farangs think they are..

I would say much higher than 20-30K month. My maid makes about 30K and our gardener makes more like 35-40K. I know many Thais that are making in the 60-70K per month range and some as much as 90K and they are not what I would call rich but more comfortable, taking care of an elderly relative, sending their kids to a good school, etc.

Edited May 3, 2012 by elektrified

[elektrified]

Up here in the North I would say we have a very good sprinkling of what I would call middle class Thai's. If you take a good look around Chiang Mai province, not just the City, there are a lot of lovely homes tucked away in the Countryside that are not normally noticed on a day to day basis. Quite large families live in many of these homes and they have plenty of new vehicles around and people who look after the grounds etc. A lot of these people keep a fairly low profile, particularly the older members of the family who don't splash indications of wealth around. Much of their money has been made in family business or, more recently, by selling off surplus land left to them by Grandparents and Parents. I know personally of two such families, one of them being my Wife's extended family who have sold off many rai of land to contractors to build on. The second family are neighbours of family in the old City and to look at them or talk to them you wouldn't know they had two satang to rub together as they don't advertise their wealth to the outside world. However; the old lady of the house is always moaning to Wifey's family that they are down to their last five million baht or so and don't know if they will be going on holiday or not. Suddenly they announce that all six members of the tribe are off to Oz for a month, this being just five months after three weeks in China !

It is my honest opinion that at least 25% of the population in this part of the country are now middle class. There is an enormous amount of hidden wealth and remember too that the Thai's just love to spread the word that they are 'just poor people'. I've met plenty of those and later found out they are better off than I will probably ever be.

I agree with this totally. I know some people that are fabulously wealthy but by looking at them you would never know it.

[DP25]

dxzHowever all kinds of small business operators don't and still make decent money, enough to afford cars and other middle class things. Additionally many people who do have jobs where they are registered to pay income tax, also have secondary jobs or small businesses where they do not. So some of those 7 million who are registered but do not make enough to pay, would make enough if anyone knew about their second job or the small business they run on the side.

Owning a car is not an indication of middle class.

Education and occupation are.

In the UK. In America if you have a middle class salary, you are normally considered middle class, and that's how I use it. I'm only interested in the term in the economic sense, social definitions for the term are somewhat useless and differ from country to country and individual to individual. I'd use the term white collar for what you seem to use as middle class, those people that have professional and office jobs and went to college. Lower class to me just means poor or lowly paid, if you are earning a medium or high income you are not lower class to me no matter what your educational background or profession is.

[TommoPhysicist]

dxzHowever all kinds of small business operators don't and still make decent money, enough to afford cars and other middle class things. Additionally many people who do have jobs where they are registered to pay income tax, also have secondary jobs or small businesses where they do not. So some of those 7 million who are registered but do not make enough to pay, would make enough if anyone knew about their second job or the small business they run on the side.

Owning a car is not an indication of middle class.

Education and occupation are.

In the UK. In America if you have a middle class salary, you are normally considered middle class, and that's how I use it. I'm only interested in the term in the economic sense, social definitions for the term are somewhat useless and differ from country to country and individual to individual. I'd use the term white collar for what you seem to use as middle class, those people that have professional and office jobs and went to college. Lower class to me just means poor or lowly paid, if you are earning a medium or high income you are not lower class to me no matter what your educational background or profession is.

In the USA and UK, almost everyone has a car, it has never been an indication of class.

In Thailand I have a car, and I am most definitely lower class, despite the fact my wife has more assets than many foreigners or BK office workers.

From 16s

http://youtu.be/c2IX833o2QE

Edited May 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[DP25]

In the USA and UK, almost everyone has a car, it has never been an indication of class.

In Thailand I have a car, and I am most definitely lower class, despite the fact my wife has more assets than many foreigners or BK office workers.

Well, many Americans can not afford a new car, lower class people often drive used cars, sometimes really old and crappy ones. Or they drive super cheap new cars. So it can still be an indicator, but yes the US is much richer in general so there can be others besides that. House ownership, and not in the projects or a ghetto, is another sign. But for Thailand being able to afford a new car is a reasonable sign of being economically well off enough to be called middle class to me.

[TommoPhysicist]

In the USA and UK, almost everyone has a car, it has never been an indication of class.

In Thailand I have a car, and I am most definitely lower class, despite the fact my wife has more assets than many foreigners or BK office workers.

Well, many Americans can not afford a new car, lower class people often drive used cars, sometimes really old and crappy ones. Or they drive super cheap new cars. So it can still be an indicator, but yes the US is much richer in general so there can be others besides that. House ownership, and not in the projects or a ghetto, is another sign. But for Thailand being able to afford a new car is a reasonable sign of being economically well off enough to be called middle class to me.

When did this thread become about 'new cars', sorry I missed that part.

Oh, my BIL just bought a new Toyota 4x4, minimum deposit, min repayments over maximum time. He is a shrimp farmer, lives in a stick hut over his pond ..... no furniture, sleeping mat in the middle of the hut for entire family. My mistake, he is obviously middle class.

Edited May 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[arthurwait]

What class is he in?

He is lower class along with everyone else who works market stalls.

How do you do he or others don't have the degree and good education, middle class or upper class family behind him yet just prefers to sell or makes more money selling t-shirts/clothes etc. Many people with small shops, maybe even market stalls are exporting the stuff and making a lot of money on it. Making, selling, exporting clothes pays a hell of a lot better than most graduate jobs.

[DP25]

In the USA and UK, almost everyone has a car, it has never been an indication of class.

In Thailand I have a car, and I am most definitely lower class, despite the fact my wife has more assets than many foreigners or BK office workers.

Well, many Americans can not afford a new car, lower class people often drive used cars, sometimes really old and crappy ones. Or they drive super cheap new cars. So it can still be an indicator, but yes the US is much richer in general so there can be others besides that. House ownership, and not in the projects or a ghetto, is another sign. But for Thailand being able to afford a new car is a reasonable sign of being economically well off enough to be called middle class to me.

When did this thread become about 'new cars', sorry I missed that part.

Oh, my BIL just bought a new Toyota 4x4, minimum deposit, min repayments over maximum time. He is a shrimp farmer, lives in a stick hut over his pond ..... no furniture, sleeping mat in the middle of the hut for entire family. My mistake, he is obviously middle class.

It's not about new cars, but that is one sign of middle class. I don't care what school you had to go to or job you have to do back on your island to be considered middle class. For me it is solely based on income, lifestyle, and possessions. So yes if a shrimp farmer makes enough money he is middle class. If he is living in a crappy house but buys an expensive car instead of fixing up his home he is just an idiot.

[TommoPhysicist]

What class is he in?

He is lower class along with everyone else who works market stalls.

How do you do he or others don't have the degree and good education, middle class or upper class family behind him yet just prefers to sell or makes more money selling t-shirts/clothes etc. Many people with small shops, maybe even market stalls are exporting the stuff and making a lot of money on it. Making, selling, exporting clothes pays a hell of a lot better than most graduate jobs.

Middle class is about education and occupation. You can be educated but lower class because of your occupation.

I also have a degree, but work as a farmer, so lower class.

[PattayaParent]

Just by eyeing things I would guess the typical income around here to be 20k-30k/month. They're not poor as much as some farangs think they are..

I would say much higher than 20-30K month. My maid makes about 30K and our gardener makes more like 35-40K. I know many Thais that are making in the 60-70K per month range and some as much as 90K and they are not what I would call rich but more comfortable, taking care of an elderly relative, sending their kids to a good school, etc.

That matches the ranges for our office girls (25-30k+) and engineers (60-70k++) as starting salaries.

[arthurwait]

In the USA and UK, almost everyone has a car, it has never been an indication of class.

In Thailand I have a car, and I am most definitely lower class, despite the fact my wife has more assets than many foreigners or BK office workers.

Well, many Americans can not afford a new car, lower class people often drive used cars, sometimes really old and crappy ones. Or they drive super cheap new cars. So it can still be an indicator, but yes the US is much richer in general so there can be others besides that. House ownership, and not in the projects or a ghetto, is another sign. But for Thailand being able to afford a new car is a reasonable sign of being economically well off enough to be called middle class to me.

When did this thread become about 'new cars', sorry I missed that part.

Oh, my BIL just bought a new Toyota 4x4, minimum deposit, min repayments over maximum time. He is a shrimp farmer, lives in a stick hut over his pond ..... no furniture, sleeping mat in the middle of the hut for entire family. My mistake, he is obviously middle class.

Yep and a guy who comes to the shop here looking dirty in old clothes and an old,old mercedes he runs the market over the road for his family. Huge market with wholesale section and retail section. It's got 1000+ stalls at apparently 1000B a week rent. The family have had it for 30 years plus. That along with the money from the car parks, porters fees etc. and money invested in land and businesses have made the family obviously very rich, but if you saw him people would put him down as a lower class market worker.

Yet the same person seeing someone earning anything from 20,000 - 100,000 B a month in they designer clothes and car bought on credit may say they are middle class. Or for that matter a 'succesful' Soi Cowboy go-go girl while not on duty in her designer clothes bought with sponsorship money again maybe put down as middle class on first impressions.

Owning a car on credit does not make you middle or upper middle class.

It's so hard to define class here. Most of the people with the real money or sitting on it in investments here are the old Chinese women sitting in their small business who haven't spent more than they have had to on essential living and a good education for their children, but have reinvested everything in land in the right areas over the last 30-50 years (and in the business). They are now loaded and it's their kids with the good education and cars yet these old women were often born into third world poverty and all these years later chose not to live much differently to that.

What class would you put a multi-millionaire ( pounds, euros, dollars) who grew up in third world poverty in ? Or even their children one generation off this who are now driving around in flash cars ?

[JurgenG]

Class :

A set, collection, group, or configuration containing members regarded as having certain attributes or traits in common; a kind or category.

a. A social stratum whose members share certain economic, social, or cultural characteristics: the lower-income classes.

b. Social rank or caste, especially high rank.

c. Informal Elegance of style, taste, and manner: an actor with class.

You can chose the definition you prefer but I was obviously referring to the "a"

What about the market stall owner in patpong etc who sells funny t-shirts?

Possibly has no formal qualifications, but is smart enough to run a good business

He could be raking in more cash on a weekend than someone with a high powerEd degree makes in a week or month

He doesn't fit into the typical high class because hes not got formal education but he is smart and wealthy and entrepreneurial, even successful in his own way......

What class is he in?

Problem old money / new money

He will probably be considered low class all his life because of his origin.

But he is smart and work hard enough, his grand children will be upper middle class. A very common story among the Chinese community in Thailand.

Edited May 3, 2012 by JurgenG

[brit1984]

Some confusion is arising with regards to entrepreneurs (an important group in Thailand); they can be categorised as follows:

Under-class entrepreneurs: beggars / drug-dealers / self-employed sex workers / traffic light scam artists

Lower-class entrepreneurs: mom&shop owner-managers / street vendors / self-employed blue-collar workers (e.g. plumber)

Middle-class entrepreneurs: self-employed professionals (e.g. doctor) and passive business owners

Upper-class entrepreneurs: landed people who engage in entrepreneurship out of interest (but need not work)

[GuestHouse]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

Edited May 3, 2012 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

So why does the difference matter?

Because on the whole it is the middle class who determine the changes and direction of society.

The working class may be active in unions and in mass movements like the Reds here in Thailand but these are "lead movements" often with very limited objectives and dubious sucess.

Meanwhile the middle classes are continualy active and vociferous on wider issues, health, education, government accountability, human rights, environmental issues, politics and law.

Look at what is happening in the Middle East, uprisings that are being driven by the middle classes.

Look at the split in the Reds here in Thailand, it is middle class Reds who are taking the Government to task.

It is the education, attitudes, social and political activity of the middle class that makes them auch a force of change in society. Their occupations add to this by giving them a very useful access to the levers that control society.

Having cash and as many cars as you wish has nothing to do with being middle class and indeed - these material trappings and/or the debt to obtain them may be regarded as disincentives to the political and social activism which defines the middle class.

Edited May 3, 2012 by GuestHouse

[DP25]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way everywhere.

This article should help explain the difference

http://blogs.telegra...f-middle-class/

In the US "middle class" means middle income – which is to say, people whose earnings really are in the mathematical middle of the range: neither very low nor very high. In other words it means ordinary working people: those in either blue collar or white collar clerical jobs (as opposed to higher professional ones). This is how the term is used both by politicians and real people. So the new Obama policies will be aimed at those making "under 85,000 dollars a year". All very clear and unambiguous.

In Britain on the other hand, "middle class" means "bourgeois" with all the Marxist connotations. Thus it can apply to even very, very wealthy people who are regarded as "middle class" rather than "upper class" simply because they have no aristocratic connections, or because their inherited wealth is quite recent – originating, say, in nineteenth century trade. This makes the whole discussion of class and the economic policies that favour one class over another, vastly more complicated. Then there is the additional complication that the concept of class also contains a cultural element which is quite separate from wealth: it is possible to be "middle class" culturally and quite poor (what used to be known as "genteel poverty"), or "working class" culturally and quite affluent.

Discussing 'middle class' using a British definition is useless because what is more important is to know is how many Thais have enough money to live decent lives, not how many have certain social indicators that would make them 'middle class' back in the UK. The American way of talking about it is more useful, where what is most important is how much people are making and how that affects their lives.

And using your examples, the millionaire who made his money selling at a market stall wouldn't be middle class in the US either, he would be considered upper class because he is a successful businessman. You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

[TommoPhysicist]

Discussing 'middle class' using a British definition is useless ...

We Brits defined the class system, you Yanks don't have a class system.

As an American your opinion on the class system really doesn't count. Having a lot of money doesn't count.

One could argue that as we are in Thailand, that runs a feudal system, we should be defining who the Lords, Knights and serfs are.

Edited May 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[GuestHouse]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way .............

You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

The false assumption you make leads you to believe I might swallow the equaly false state ment you follow it with.

Search "American Middle Class on Wiki and you'll get a definition which reafirms what I have said above. Go read it !

[DP25]

The false assumption you make leads you to believe I might swallow the equaly false state ment you follow it with.

Search "American Middle Class on Wiki and you'll get a definition which reafirms what I have said above. Go read it !

Different people use different definitions, especially academics may not use the word the same as most people, but the vast majority of people use it as I describe. Middle class in America equals middle income. When an American politician talks about middle class, they are talking about income and being able to afford a 'middle class lifestyle'. Most Americans see themselves as part of the middle class or aspire to be a part of it, which they can be if they make more income. A poor person is not middle class but they can become so by getting a more highly paid job. They use the term exactly how it was described in the article I linked, the one that argues that the British definition is outdated. I suggest you also listen to speeches of American politicians if you don't believe me, one of the major theme that all politicians will talk about is concern for the middle class, as the majority of the population considers themselves part of it, and especially now feel that the middle class is being chipped away at and they are in danger of losing their middle class status. And rich people absolutely are not considered part of the middle class in America no matter what job they do, just look at the backlash some politicians get when they try to claim that they are.

Edited May 3, 2012 by DP25

[GuestHouse]

DP25, there are three problems with your line of argument:

Firstly, while academics might argue over the precise definition of middle class - The core definition they all agree on is the one I have given - and very specifically wealth does not define class.

Secondly, you very much miss the point (but Politicians do not) that it is the middle class which I have described which are the driving force behind public opinion, and social direction - Again read the wiki page on this. Politicians rightly pay a huge amount of attention to the middle class - it is the middle class who make or break their political careers.

Thirdly, the promotion of a consumer/wealth based society is a political act, tying people to debt in particular is a means of undermining social activity.

You are of course correct, American society is driven by individual endeavour to 'achieve' and the measurement of 'achievement' is for the vast majority wealth and the trappings of wealth. But the socially, politically active people who drive public opinion and political direction and policy are the same educated middle class that do so the world over.

Politicians might speak of middle America, middle income but it is this socially, politically, educated middle class that the listen to.

[DP25]

Firstly, while academics might argue over the precise definition of middle class - The core definition they all agree on is the one I have given - and very specifically wealth does not define class.

Wealth is the definition of it in America. The discussion over what defines middle class is a discussion of what income levels middle class is bound by. Some people think it should be higher as you can longer afford a middle class lifestyle on a certain salary. On the other end is the discussion of at what income level middle class stops at. Wealthy people often claim to be middle class in America, and are routinely mocked by every one else, because you can no longer be middle class once you are rich. Certain occupations and education levels are merely common characteristics of the middle class, because education tends to lead to better jobs and more wealth, but anyone with sufficient income is considered to be part of it. And anyone with sufficient income is no longer considered part of it once they become rich enough, regardless of their occupation. The the way it is used in the UK is simply not how it is used in the US. And the way we use it frankly much more relevant.

The majority of Americans consider themselves middle class, and that is who the politicians are talking to and listening to. You clearly do not listen to many American politicians (and why would you since you're not American). The biggest issue in the US right now is the shrinkage of the middle class, due to economic problems people are losing their status as middle class. It is not a static thing defined education or heritage or social standing, it is defined by money and changes with the fortunes of the economy.

[wana]

class is often brought into play when it comes to marriages

people (women usually ) are often said to be marrying "above" or "below" their class

when a daughter brings home a new boy in most cultures ,probablly the first question asked is about his occupation/wealthiness

[GuestHouse]

q

Edited May 3, 2012 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Wealth is the definition of it in America.

No it is not.

http://en.wikipedia....an_middle_class

[GuestHouse]

Of course I accept DP25 that the existence of class based on anything but the socially accepted measure of wealth is a difficult one for Americans to swallow - The European term Bourgeoisie rubs somewhat against the myth of a meritocracy - But the US like all societies has a class structure AND it is the educated, professional, socially and political middle class who determine the political debate and the social discourse that directs the nation.

Just like everywhere else on the planet that is not a dictatorship - and guess who brings those down?!

[transam]

I'm middle classed and skint.

[GuestHouse]

I'm middle classed and skint.

That is not a contradiction.

But it is instructive.

We most of us have suffered the whims of fortune in life - A person earning a high income does not suddenly change social class just because s/he loses his/her job.

They maintain their social capital - Their access to future employment is hugely dictated by this social capital.

Their class plays a part in their expectations and access to opportunities.

Here, in Europe and in the US.

Edited May 3, 2012 by GuestHouse

[transam]

I'm middle classed and skint.

That is not a contradiction.

Absolutely,

I can bow, I know the correct hand shake for a male or female, l know how to use a FULL set of dining cutlery AND what a serviette is for and how to use it, AND used this ''skill'', BUT, then l am middle classed but l am skint.