Red Shirts Want An End To Military Coups: Thida

[moe666]

It is still very interesting that they didn't start there big anti-coup demenstration until Big T had his 46 billion Baht confiscated by the tax man. One can write eloquently in the defense of the redshirts and there beliefs but in the end it has been about one guy and what he is trying to do, Big T is the big cog and with him itisn't about democracy but power and him wanting it.

[tlansford]

What the red shirts attempted whilst Abhisit was in power was to cut short his term by force, by violence, by intimidation. It wasn't democratic. In many ways it was much like a coup attempt. If they had respect for democracy, they would have said, "ok, we don't like the way that Abhisit came to power, but we will respect the democratic principles we preach, and will demonstrate this not by taking to the streets with arms and burning things down, but by trying to get him removed within the law and via the courts, and if this fails, we will simply campaign hard and make sure he is not re-elected at the next election".

I have some sympathy with your view here.The problem however was that the unelected elites would not accept the wishes of the Thai people expressed at the ballot box, hence the military coup, army meddling in politics, judicial intervention (making fair use of the law and courts unworkable) etc etc.Therefore it was not feasible simply to buckle down to peaceful campaigning and work on winning the next election.Cynically one might argue the entrenched unelected elites and their nervous middle class hangers on needed a bit of a shock to discourage further interference in the democratic process.The fire next time etc.

The argument you seem to be making is that yes, the red shirts are willing to use undemocratic methods if necessary, but in their case they have little choice but to do so, and we must accept the hypocrisy of a group that preaches democracy failing to respect it itself.

OK, but you will of course be aware that a similar argument can be made with regards the military feeling they had little choice in taking the action they did, when they did.

I think if the reds take the position you present here of, sometimes undemocratic methods are justified, the whole premise of what they claim to be fighting against is in question. Of course it is only a claim...

"The argument you seem to be making is that yes, the red shirts are willing to use undemocratic methods if necessary, but in their case they have little choice but to do so, and we must accept the hypocrisy of a group that preaches democracy failing to respect it itself."

protesting is not undemocratic.

one can discuss the violence, from both sides, as has been done here already. But protesting is not undemocratic.

[rixalex]

The argument you seem to be making is that yes, the red shirts are willing to use undemocratic methods if necessary, but in their case they have little choice but to do so, and we must accept the hypocrisy of a group that preaches democracy failing to respect it itself.

OK, but you will of course be aware that a similar argument can be made with regards the military feeling they had little choice in taking the action they did, when they did.

I think if the reds take the position you present here of, sometimes undemocratic methods are justified, the whole premise of what they claim to be fighting against is in question. Of course it is only a claim...

I strongly prefer the democratic route.My point was that this was effectively closed off by the unelected elites.They simply wouldn't accept the nation's elected choice.The situation is rather different now and instead of rigged courts, military coups, military imposed constitution etc the accomodation is being achieved by back stairs bargaining since the cruder methods have been shown not to work.Of course Thaksin is a huge complicating factor and one wishes like a tumour he could be removed.But without Thaksin or with Thaksin, Thailand has changed fundamentally and in particular old style deference is dead or dying.

The other important factor referring back to the redshirt-army confrontation is that this was a quasi revolutionary episode, and that generates its own energy.It's not really a predictor of the future.

It's interesting to me that in the case of the coup, despite all the things Thaksin was getting up to when it happened, despite all the check and balances that had been eroded, despite all the cronyism and nepotism, despite all the law changing for personal benefit, despite all the corruption, despite all the law suits being slapped about, despite all the interference in justice and in the media, despite the extra judicial killing of thousands, you remained firm in your belief that democracy was sacrosanct and to not respect it, as the coup did, might short term solve the problems Thaksin was creating, but long term would create more. An admirable position which though i fully understood, i feared because as evidenced in other countries in this region, once a total stranglehold on power is established by one family, it can take many years, sometimes many generations, for the country to be released from their grip, and in that time, the damage can be immeasurable. Worth it in the end you say. Perhaps so, if it is not your family personally suffering.

Now, moving on to the case of the red shirts, there seems to be quite a contrast in your level of devotion to sticking with democracy. I strongly prefer the democratic route you say. Or to put it another way, there may be times when undemocratic methods may be necessary, for the greater good perhaps? Well yes, that is a familiar argument to me. Perhaps the difference is only in when we feel it justified.

[rixalex]

"The argument you seem to be making is that yes, the red shirts are willing to use undemocratic methods if necessary, but in their case they have little choice but to do so, and we must accept the hypocrisy of a group that preaches democracy failing to respect it itself."

protesting is not undemocratic.

one can discuss the violence, from both sides, as has been done here already. But protesting is not undemocratic.

Peaceful protesting is not. But that is not what we are talking about.

And as far as your both sides comment, i am not the one trying to argue that either side is pro democracy in anything more than words.

[JVichitt]

It is still very interesting that they didn't start there big anti-coup demenstration until Big T had his 46 billion Baht confiscated by the tax man. One can write eloquently in the defense of the redshirts and there beliefs but in the end it has been about one guy and what he is trying to do, Big T is the big cog and with him itisn't about democracy but power and him wanting it.

The red shirts are just pawns of a new set of elite who want to cheat the country out of resources and wealth. Thaksinites don't care about the poor. They are just as snobby as the 'old elite'with the added bonus of an insatiable thirst for more money and control.

[JurgenG]

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

What an interesting post. Dare to elaborate ?

Maybe it's not bribery, maybe it's something else ..

But to follow up on this post you will need to have some real knowledge about patronage in rural Thailand.

Anyway I expect this thread to be flooded/derailed by the PAD brigade but I will be pleasantly surprised if we can get an intelligent debate about this subject.

[citizen33]

Interesting to see how those who condoned the coup, and would do so again, dress their arguments up to make them seem oh so reasonable. History is on Thida's side, at least in the sense that after a period when two factions of the elite squabbled for power and money, ordinary people slowly start to see that their interests lie elsewhere.

Edited May 6, 2012 by citizen33

[rixalex]

Interesting to see how those who condoned the coup, and would do so again, dress their arguments up to make them seem oh so reasonable. History is on Thida's side, at least in the sense that after a period when two factions of the elite squabbled for power and money, ordinary people slowly start to see that their interests lie elsewhere.

Naive in my opinion to think that Thida is not just another part of the elite involved in the squabble for power and money.

[volk666]

I watched Abhisit being elected as PM live on the TV, every MP cast his vote, Pracha Promnoke, PTP backed candidate, voted for himself. In the end PTP lost and Abhisit became the premier. Every MP voting in that election was duly elected by the people.

As for the coups - here's a memorable article from 2009, a few months after the first red uprising that failed to dislodge Abhisit's government:

Gen Chaisit backs military coup

Former army chief Chaisit Shinawatra said on Saturday that he would support another military coup if it can help the country get out of political crisis.

“The coup-makers must settle social division, create the right path for the country and return power to the people as soon as possible”, Gen Chaisit said.

The retired general was responding to the prediction by Jatuporn Prompahn, a core leader of the pro-Thaksin United front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), that there would be a military coup while Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva visits the United States late next week.

Gen Chaisit admitted that he had just returned from visiting former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. He said Thaksin is now happy doing business with foreign investors but still wants to return home to stay with his family.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PdUVWaHTzkkJ:paidoo.net/article/221734.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=opera

Don't expect red shirts to distance themselves from him anytime soon, no matter what Thida says, she is just "wenging".

Bottom line - despite all the rhetoric those guys oppose coups only when they are on the receiving end, one would be extremely naive to believe otherwise.

Even in this interview Thida is supporting "fighting with weapons" if things don't go their way.

[rubl]

"I think the number of people who agree with us should increase. Consider the labour force; that should be over 30 million people. Eligible voters number over 40 million people. Now we have over 10 million supporters, which can be seen from the election result plus those who did not vote for Pheu Thai," she said.

Looks like a new trade union which hasn't decided yet (or at least not formally) to turn into a political party. Maybe Arthur Scargill should be invited to offer his expertise in ruiningrunning things

[BigJohnnyBKK]

and I would like to wake up to a hummer every day but I cannot see either becoming a reality any time soon

That should be relatively easy here if you set your mind to it, what's stopping you?

And if the military is so evil why did they let Samak, Somchai (Thaksins brother in law) and Yingluck (Thaksins sister) be PM?

I'm not claiming anyone's "evil" here, but IMO it was because it's pretty clear there would be significant public unrest if there's another such intervention so soon after the last one, possibly full-scale civil war, and no one wants that.

Edited May 6, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[Skywalker69]

There is one born every second... dont ya just luv-em...?

Unfortunately they don´t seems to die-out in the same rate they being borne.

[volk666]

"I think the number of people who agree with us should increase. Consider the labour force; that should be over 30 million people. Eligible voters number over 40 million people. Now we have over 10 million supporters, which can be seen from the election result plus those who did not vote for Pheu Thai," she said.

Looks like a new trade union which hasn't decided yet (or at least not formally) to turn into a political party. Maybe Arthur Scargill should be invited to offer his expertise in ruiningrunning things

With her obsession with numbers she clearly wants to build a totalitarian regime. Would not be the first time in world history leftists with the best intentions ended up there with the likes of Stalin and Mao.

[Skywalker69]

I watched Abhisit being elected as PM live on the TV, every MP cast his vote, Pracha Promnoke, PTP backed candidate, voted for himself. In the end PTP lost and Abhisit became the premier. Every MP voting in that election was duly elected by the people.

As for the coups - here's a memorable article from 2009, a few months after the first red uprising that failed to dislodge Abhisit's government:

Gen Chaisit backs military coup

Former army chief Chaisit Shinawatra said on Saturday that he would support another military coup if it can help the country get out of political crisis.

“The coup-makers must settle social division, create the right path for the country and return power to the people as soon as possible”, Gen Chaisit said.

The retired general was responding to the prediction by Jatuporn Prompahn, a core leader of the pro-Thaksin United front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), that there would be a military coup while Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva visits the United States late next week.

Gen Chaisit admitted that he had just returned from visiting former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. He said Thaksin is now happy doing business with foreign investors but still wants to return home to stay with his family.

http://webcache.goog...nk&client=opera

Don't expect red shirts to distance themselves from him anytime soon, no matter what Thida says, she is just "wenging".

Bottom line - despite all the rhetoric those guys oppose coups only when they are on the receiving end, one would be extremely naive to believe otherwise.

Even in this interview Thida is supporting "fighting with weapons" if things don't go their way.

Good post. Thanks.

[volk666]

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

What an interesting post. Dare to elaborate ?

Read up on the hows of People Party's being dissolved.

They were convicted of bribing small parties to run in constituencies where their bribes to run in constituencies unopposed failed due to their not receiving the required 20% of the vote in those districts.

.

No no no, you are confusing TRT dissolution with PTP dissolution.

PTP got dissolved because Yongyudh Tiyapairat, one of the party executives, was convicted of bribery of village leaders. Once he was convicted the party's fate was sealed, current constitution does not leave any leeway to the courts on the matter and this was clearly expressed in the verdict.

Talks of "judicial coup" here is nonsense, the only way the court could influence the events is to issue the ruling sooner or later, it would have come out the same anyway - once the party exec is convicted of electoral fraud the party must be dissolved.

[lungmi]

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

What an interesting post. Dare to elaborate ?

Maybe it's not bribery, maybe it's something else ..

But to follow up on this post you will need to have some real knowledge about patronage in rural Thailand.

Anyway I expect this thread to be flooded/derailed by the PAD brigade but I will be pleasantly surprised if we can get an intelligent debate about this subject.

Not with you.

[rixalex]

It's common practice for defenders of the status quo on this forum to suggest that all key players are simply part of competing elites.In the case of Thaksin's the argument can be made sensibly though it misses the point that his significance is his catalytic effect.In the case of Thida however such a suggestion is just plain silly - checkout her rather impressive background on Wiki.

Thida, like her husband, has shown a willingness to jump in bed with the elite when it suits her purposes, just as she has shown a willingness to ignore democratic principles, when she feels it is justified.

[jayboy]

Thida, like her husband, has shown a willingness to jump in bed with the elite when it suits her purposes, just as she has shown a willingness to ignore democratic principles, when she feels it is justified.

She's a politician so some compromise is necessary, though she hasn't shifted from her career long set of beliefs.It's actually a rather impressive record.

And your suggestion that she is just another elite pol scrambling after position simply doesn't make much sense (unless you regard all in the political sphere as contaminated)

[siampolee]

Thida and her comments are no more than the ramblings of a deadbeat old Communist who has lost the plot and knows that she isn't going to get a slice or even a crumb of Thaksins cake.Or in fact a slice or even the crumbs of anyone else's cake either.

[Buchholz]

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

What an interesting post. Dare to elaborate ?

Read up on the hows of People Party's being dissolved.

They were convicted of bribing small parties to run in constituencies where their bribes to run in constituencies unopposed failed due to their not receiving the required 20% of the vote in those districts.

.

No no no, you are confusing TRT dissolution with PTP dissolution.

You're correct (except with the acronym, which should read PPP).

I was mistaken by describing Thaksin, ver. 3.0 as what was really Thaksin ver. 1.0

Sometimes easy to confuse all their repeated criminal shenanigans.

.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Buchholz

[Crushdepth]

Media and justice system reform? Hmmm...I wonder what they have in mind :-)

[yoshiwara]

Thida and her comments are no more than the ramblings of a deadbeat old Communist who has lost the plot and knows that she isn't going to get a slice or even a crumb of Thaksins cake.Or in fact a slice or even the crumbs of anyone else's cake either.

Normally wouldn't comment on this kind of ignorant and insulting drivel but perhaps worth pointing out that what are described as "deadbeat old Communists" (most of whom like Thida have long abandoned that ideology) saved the country in 1973 and 1976, indeed were regarded as national heroes by all but the unelected elite, the brutalised army and their paid murdering thugs.

Deadbeat old Stalinists never die. They may have abandoned their allegiance to the failed USSR, but their Stalinist method endures.

In Thida's case that would be abandoning the Thai organised working class for the lumpen proletarian thuggery of the red (no relation) movement.

Not to put too fine a point of it she is now no more or less than a running dog for Thaksin. Her message is that he needs her and she thinks she is still hot enough for Thaksin's attentions. As she is now reminding him.

[jayboy]

Deadbeat old Stalinists never die. They may have abandoned their allegiance to the failed USSR, but their Stalinist method endures.

In Thida's case that would be abandoning the Thai organised working class for the lumpen proletarian thuggery of the red (no relation) movement.

Not to put too fine a point of it she is now no more or less than a running dog for Thaksin. Her message is that he needs her and she thinks she is still hot enough for Thaksin's attentions. As she is now reminding him.

Running dog for Thaksin? Hmm.Let's see.

I wonder what you think her real agenda is.Even accepting your comment "lumpen proletarian thuggery", that's surely a means not an end in itself.What the objective?

[Crushdepth]

No evasion whatsoever of what I posted initially.

If you tried to reply to that instead of something else that you imply but was never said, you might see that.

Then do you accept that this government is entirely legitimate and that, notwithstanding some irregularities, was fairly elected by the Thai people?

Irregularities like five years of billionaire funded agitation, propaganda and terror to destabilise the government?

Not my idea of democracy.

[Buchholz]

Then do you accept that this government is entirely legitimate and that, notwithstanding some irregularities, was fairly elected by the Thai people?"

I accept that have been legitimately elected.

Where have I said they weren't?

.

[KireB]

Then do you accept that this government is entirely legitimate and that, notwithstanding some irregularities, was fairly elected by the Thai people?

I will! Your right with this claim. This government is a entirely legitimate government fairly elected (even with the coming '111' shuffle). So was the previous government of course. Shame that your hero Thida oversteps this basic logic for her (and her husband's) personal gain.

[Sayonarax]

Even if Thaksin died today, or if we put Thaksin in a space capsule and shot it out of the Earth

I heard the North Koreans are good at shooting things to outta space.

[anterian]

This topic is about coups, not Thaksin, red shirts, yellow shirts or whatever, and the simple answer is that no military government has ever successfully run a country, just look at North Korea or Myanmar for example. The mindset that wins battles and wars is not that which can solve economic and social problems and handle international relationships.

I believe the Thai generals have come to realise this, they realise that proxy military governments like the previous Abhisit government is not the way to go. The same is true of China to a degree, in both cases it is a step in the direction of democracy, it is a very weak democracy where before there was none. Democracy does not arise overnight, many western nations are still struggling with the concept, some are clearly moving backwards from this goal. It is not reconciliation that is needed, countries like the UK and USA are very divided politically, but they accept the democratic process, Thailand has to learn to do the same.

[yoshiwara]

Deadbeat old Stalinists never die. They may have abandoned their allegiance to the failed USSR, but their Stalinist method endures.

In Thida's case that would be abandoning the Thai organised working class for the lumpen proletarian thuggery of the red (no relation) movement.

Not to put too fine a point of it she is now no more or less than a running dog for Thaksin. Her message is that he needs her and she thinks she is still hot enough for Thaksin's attentions. As she is now reminding him.

Running dog for Thaksin? Hmm.Let's see.

I wonder what you think her real agenda is.Even accepting your comment "lumpen proletarian thuggery", that's surely a means not an end in itself.What the objective?

Somewhere she may be justifying to herself and former comrades that she is following a left-wing trajectory and in old CP parlance that would mean a commitment to a stages theory. First Thaksin, then us. Unfortunately the 'us' is no more the Thai working class and is instead an unstable alliance of the petty-bourgeois, north-eastern agricultural workers and the lumpen proletariat. Her forces are neither hers, nor organised or united by a set of class demands. Only the return of Thaksin. In short it doesn't really matter what her objectives are. If Thaksin returns he will swat her away like a fly if it suits him and since Thaksin's primary objective is to secure control of the army, if/when that is achieved, her usefulness will be marginal at best. At present she may perform some useful role in bringing the 'left' (whatever that means) into line and the forum red supporters who still think they are lining up behind a bourgeois-democratic revolution in progress, but that's about it. Thida a dustbin of history with a new battery gratis Thaksin.

[Skywalker69]

Even if Thaksin died today, or if we put Thaksin in a space capsule and shot it out of the Earth

I heard the North Koreans are good at shooting things to outta space.

It won´t do, with a NK missile Thaksin will be back on earth in minutes without reaching above the atmosphere.