Thai Residency Applications Being Approved

[Arkady]

My husband (applied PR 2006) and I (applied 2007) have both received letters and reported to Immigration as instructed. We were told that they were processing applications in order of filing, so my husband would hear first.

Someone stated that fear of being accused of corruption was the reason for the huge backlog in applications. I respectfully suggest that the continued political upheaval since 2006 has far more to do with the issue. My understanding (based on the information received from Immigration when we applied) is that the final committee that approves PR requests includes everyone, from every conceivable ministry and organization - from the Interior Ministry to the Tourism Authority of Thailand. Given the governmental musical chairs over the past six years, I suspect it's been hard to convene this council of honchos.

One more thing: recently we went to the police station to inquire about Thai citizenship. We'd heard from a friend (married to a Thai) that the requirements had been eased. However, we were told quite firmly that one had to have PR for five years before applying for citizenship. Of course, it might be different for a farang-farang married couple than for our friend.

(The officer whom we talked to joked that my husband should marry a Thai. We figured that might have been our Thai language exam!)

Good luck with your PR applications. There seems to be a creaking sound from upriver indicating that something may at long last be happening to the logjam. They always like to claim that every one is too frightened of being accused of corruption or that it is too hard to get all the members of the commission to meet but this is obviously untrue. I got my PR in 1996 at a time of great political upheaval when some coalition governments lasted only a few months. The Interior Minister, Banharn, who was simultaneously prime minister signed for me even after having lost a no confidence motion during the two week hand over to the Chavalit government. As mentioned elsewhere it is more likely that the interior ministry has become more corrupt and some ministers just refused to sign anything without payment which is harder to arrange given all the various agencies involved and the high official fees charged since the first Thaksin government. Fear of being accused of corruption has certainly not prevented the massive upswing in tea money demands by various ministries in recent years.

According the Immigration Act of 1979 these are the agencies that sit on the Immigration Commission that considers PR applications:

Chapter 1

immigration Commission

Section 6 : The immigration Commission will consist of the Under Secretary of the Minister of Interior as

Chairman and the following members :

- Under Secretary of Ministry of Foreign Affairs

- Director general , Police Department

- Director General , labor Department

- Director General , public Prosecution Department

- Secretary General , Board of Investment Committee

- Secretary General , National Security Council

- Director , Tourist Organization of Thailand

- Commander of Immigration Division as member and secretary

The top man doesn't often attend the meetings in person. Normally someone at the second or third seniority level of the agency concerned will stand in. So it is not that difficult to convene the meetings. Tip: if you know some one at that level in any of these agencies, a recommendation letter from them will be a big help for your application.

Since you are both foreigners, you will need to have PR first before you are qualified for Thai citizenship but that is just an interpretation of the law by the Interior Ministry and in its ministerial regulations. The Nationality Act specifies "Five years' residence in the Kingdom" with no mention of PR. Thus the Interior Ministry does in fact have the flexibility to accept a qualification of PR plus five years continuously on a work permit. They have been known to do this but blow hot and cold as various ministerial regulations are issued. I think the current position is that they will accept this but they might review things once a lot of newly minted PRs come down the pipe. I am surprised the local police station even entertained your questions about citizenship. Usually they have no idea or would give misleading information so as not to lose face. The only authority on citizenship applications is the Naturalization Section of Special Branch at National Police HQ in Patumwan. Since ministerial regulations on citizen change frequently I would advise anyone interested to go and visit them. They are very friendly and are always wiling to give an informal opinion on whether you meet the qualifications.

[mike123ca]

Thailand has been created, then evolved, and the finally product you have now is from a Thai-guy's perspective. The Thai-guy can have his cake and eat it too. If you are a Thai-guy you would want a white boy with the same advantages as you. I think not.

...what a logic we have here! so, we should deny basic rights based on the skin color, yes? ...and even if someone agree with this, then obviously you also have to considere the thai females as something inferior by not taking into the account that every limitation you put on her foreigner husband will inevitably cause some problem in her life too, what other rules should we add on top of these 2 perls of yours???

I have heard that Foreign men are suppose to be taking the wife to his home country. He shouldn't be coming to Thailand.

[DoctorD]

Thanks, Arkady,

I should have been more specific. The Naturalization Section of the National Police in Pathumwan is exactly who we talked to. And yes, I'll agree they were friendly and helpful - they just shot down our hopes that we might bypass the PR issue entirely!

We've been here almost nine years, both teaching at a top university, and want to stay. I wish I knew how to get them to adhere to the letter of the law rather than the "current interpretation"!

Any suggestions are very welcome.

[Arkady]

One more thing: recently we went to the police station to inquire about Thai citizenship. We'd heard from a friend (married to a Thai) that the requirements had been eased. However, we were told quite firmly that one had to have PR for five years before applying for citizenship. Of course, it might be different for a farang-farang married couple than for our friend.

And I can absolutely assure you that in 2009 (or was it 2008) the rules were changed so that a married (to a Thai) person could apply for citizenship immediately on humanitarian grounds. PR was no longer needed.

There has been no mention of humanitarian grounds but there was a Thai women's group that took the issue to the Ombudsman on the grounds that the inherit discrimination against Thai woman contravened the prohibition against discrimination on grounds of gender, race, religious beliefs etc in the 1997 constitution. The Ombudsman in turn took it to the Council of State (the government's official legal advisor) for an opinion. The Council of State came out with the asinine opinion that the government was fully entitled to set more stringent criteria for foreign men with Thai wives compared to those for foreign women with Thai husbands as the issue of granting Thai citizenship to foreign males was clearly an issue that could affect national security.

Ostensibly theThai women's group's case was lost but it must have had an impact anyway. For in the 2008 a new Nationality Act quietly dropped two conditions for foreign men with Thai wives, i.e. the requirement for five years' residence in Thailand and the requirement for knowledge of the Thai language. The interpretation in the ministerial regulations that followed was that PR is no longer necessary, nor is singing the Royal and National Anthems for males with Thai wives. All the other requirements for males remain, including the need for a profession in Thailand, a job paying at least B40k a month and three years' tax receipts.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Thanks, Arkady,

I should have been more specific. The Naturalization Section of the National Police in Pathumwan is exactly who we talked to. And yes, I'll agree they were friendly and helpful - they just shot down our hopes that we might bypass the PR issue entirely!

We've been here almost nine years, both teaching at a top university, and want to stay. I wish I knew how to get them to adhere to the letter of the law rather than the "current interpretation"!

Any suggestions are very welcome.

You cannot bypass PR without a Thai spouse and I doubt this will change in the foreseeable future. To be more specific by "current interpretation" I mean ministerial regulations pursuant to the Nationality Act which are effectively the letter of the law. Under the civil law system in Thailand statutory law, which is quite difficult to amend, is usually deliberately very broad brush and open to interpretation which comes in the form of ministerial regulations that have the force of law and can be amended on a whim at a moment's notice.

If you are interested in Thai citizenship for its own sake, rather than just any way to stay in Thailand permanently, what you should focus on is getting your PR and then seeing if the Interior Ministry will accept time spent on a WP in lieu of five years' PR. That would mean you could apply for citizenship as soon as you get your PR. Two things to bear in mind for those who are interested in applying for Thai citizenship are:

1) All applicants with or without PR need a tabian baan and time on a tabian baan counts towards the 50 points you need out of 100 to qualify. Since 2008 district offices have been obliged to issue yellow tabian baans to foreigners without PR, although not all know this. Not all landlords are willing to put foreign tenants on their tabian baan either but no tabian baan, no citizenship application. Once you get your PR getting on a tabian baan is a legal obligation. In my case I had to tell my landlord I had to terminate my lease early because he was forcing me to break Thai law by refusing to put me on his tabian baan. He quickly came around and put me on the tabian baan.

2) All applicants must show their dedication to Thai society by producing receipts of regular donations over time to charities registered in Thailand. Your application will not be accepted, if you have just made a quick donation obviously in order to apply for citizenship. The amounts and time are not specified but are probably no less than B5k a year over three years.

I note that your husband applied for PR ahead of you. Once he has got it he should be able to apply for citizenship for you at the same time as himself without you waiting for your PR, as the Nationality Act provides for family applications for husband, wife and minor children. I believe that means that you would not need to qualify in terms of profession, tax receipts etc - only your husband. This family application route seems commonly used. If you look at the announcements of naturalizations in the Royal Gazette you will see quite a few that are either husband and wife or whole families.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Arkady

[slicebread]

As with any other country, including Thailand, becoming a permanent resident is an expensive undertaking. Perhaps British and US nationals won't know this since you don't have to do it, but it is quite expensive to become a resident in the USA and UK. I think USD6,000 is probably a fair amount. This is really good news I think...

I hope that after 5 years of continuous residency that the government will consider having the resident apply for a citizenship.

[cyborgx]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

My one question is that if male, married, made regular charitable donations, but retired, does that mean it's not possible to get Citizenship because of the Job and salary requirement?

Surely there must be an "or equivalent" or simialr sentence in the law for rich people who don't work, or retired people?

Edited May 8, 2012 by cyborgx

[prighas]

1) All applicants with or without PR need a tabian baan and time on a tabian baan counts towards the 50 points you need out of 100 to qualify. Since 2008 district offices have been obliged to issue yellow tabian baans to foreigners without PR, although not all know this. Not all landlords are willing to put foreign tenants on their tabian baan either but no tabian baan, no citizenship application. Once you get your PR getting on a tabian baan is a legal obligation. In my case I had to tell my landlord I had to terminate my lease early because he was forcing me to break Thai law by refusing to put me on his tabian baan. He quickly came around and put me on the tabian baan.

2) All applicants must show their dedication to Thai society by producing receipts of regular donations over time to charities registered in Thailand. Your application will not be accepted, if you have just made a quick donation obviously in order to apply for citizenship. The amounts and time are not specified but are probably no less than B5k a year over three years.

I note that your husband applied for PR ahead of you. Once he has got it he should be able to apply for citizenship for you at the same time as himself without you waiting for your PR, as the Nationality Act provides for family applications for husband, wife and minor children. I believe that means that you would not need to qualify in terms of profession, tax receipts etc - only your husband. This family application route seems commonly used. If you look at the announcements of naturalizations in the Royal Gazette you will see quite a few that are either husband and wife or whole families.

Very informative indeed Arkady. Please allow me to ask this question: does one need to give up their nationality if their Thai citizenship application is approved?

Thanks in advance for your informative posts.

[Maestro]

... does one need to give up their nationality if their Thai citizenship application is approved?....

No, but...

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai

nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

...

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

...

Source: Nationality Act

I understand this to refer to situations where a naturalized Thai continues to use his former nationality in Thailand.

[Arkady]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

My one question is that if male, married, made regular charitable donations, but retired, does that mean it's not possible to get Citizenship because of the Job and salary requirement?

Surely there must be an "or equivalent" or simialr sentence in the law for rich people who don't work, or retired people?

Unfortunately there is no way around the requirement to have a profession in Thailand, as evidenced by documentation proving employment and three years' salaries tax receipts because this is specified in the Nationality Act. Wealthy people can of course easily finesse this by setting up a company to manage some investments in Thailand and employment themselves.

[Arkady]

... does one need to give up their nationality if their Thai citizenship application is approved?....

No, but...

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai

nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

...

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

...

Source: Nationality Act

I understand this to refer to situations where a naturalized Thai continues to use his former nationality in Thailand.

This is a rather complex issue that is dealt with at length elsewhere in TV. First of all there are now many thousands of Thai dual nationals. Recently the largest group comprised Thais living abroad who acquired second nationalities through naturalization as something else but since the 1992 Nationality Act permitted Thai women to pass their nationality to their children without any restrictions and without the obligation from the Thai side to choose only one nationality on reaching the age of majority, the largest group of Thai dual nationals clearly comprises "look krung" with Thai mothers and this group must now be huge. Before those two groups became significant most of the dual nationals were children of Chinese immigrants entitled to Thai nationality through being born in Thailand to alien parents and they were also entitled to Chinese nationality as a result of being of Chinese origin. The various sanctions against naturalized Thais and Thais through birth in in the Kingdom to alien parents in the Nationality Act including the clauses allowing revocation of Thai nationality from those who continue to use their former or father's nationality were all framed for use against Chinese Thais and were carried over from previous Acts in force prior to the current 1965 Nationality Act. If you research notices of involuntary revocation of Thai nationality on the grounds of using the former or father's nationality since the 50s in the Royal Gazette, you will find that nearly all of these revocation orders were applied against Chinese Thais who got Thai nationality through birth in Thailand to alien parents, often based solely on the evidence that since they had lived continuously in China for over five years they must have been using Chinese nationality (consequently a threat to national security). However, since the 70s when Thailand stopped granting nationality to those born in the Kingdom to alien parents, unless both are PRs, and China made dual nationality illegal, there have been hardly any new citizens minted in this category and China has also become a big friend of Thailand's.

With the new wave of "look krung" dual nationals after 1992 and the national security threat due to dual national Chinese greatly diminished, it seemed that there was a growing acceptance of the concept of dual nationality. However, in 2010 ministerial regulations on naturalization were amended to require an affidavit notarized by applicants' embassies that they will renounce their existing nationality once they have been approved for Thai nationality and the committee that interviews applicants at the Interior Ministry since early 2011 had been routinely asking applicants, including those who applied before the affidavit was made a requirement, whether they are willing to renounce their existing nationality, if they are approved for Thai nationality. After Thai nationality has been granted ministerial regulations now specify that the Interior Ministry must notify applicants' embassies that they have been naturalized as Thai citizens. I suspect the retrograde move against the growing tolerance of dual nationality was a backlash from the conservative xenophobe wing at the Interior Ministry who were horrified by the prospect of a wave of foreign men with bar girl wives getting Thai citizenship. There are clearly diehards who hotly resisted the 1992 Act that gave Thai nationality to the children of Thai mothers and the same people or type of people must also have fought against the 2008 Act that put foreign men with Thai wives almost on the same basis as foreign women with Thai husbands. (One major difference that remains is that the use of a former nationality is not grounds for revocation of nationality from women who acquired Thai nationality through their husbands.) Naturalized Thais are always a soft target since there are no hi-so Thais or even super hi-so Thais to go into bat for them as there are in the case of Thais with "look krung" children or foreign wives. However, there are very few of them and most stay below the radar. Now that the dual Thai Chinese problem has all but been eliminated the sanctions against naturalized Thais or Thais born in Thailand to alien parents are far more likely to be applied to newly minted Thais who were previously stateless (the 2008 Act also made it much easier for them to acquire Thai nationality, if they were born in Thailand up to 1992 and there are about 400,000 of them eligible to apply) than to the tiny numbers of naturalized Thais who had another nationality beforehand (about 150 a year over the last few years).

Edited May 8, 2012 by Arkady

[ubonjoe]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

My one question is that if male, married, made regular charitable donations, but retired, does that mean it's not possible to get Citizenship because of the Job and salary requirement?

Surely there must be an "or equivalent" or simialr sentence in the law for rich people who don't work, or retired people?

Unfortunately there is no way around the requirement to have a profession in Thailand, as evidenced by documentation proving employment and three years' salaries tax receipts because this is specified in the Nationality Act. Wealthy people can of course easily finesse this by setting up a company to manage some investments in Thailand and employment themselves.

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and I got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Edited May 9, 2012 by ubonjoe

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Its sexual discrimination a woman can get citizenship but its harder for a man. I love Thailand and I must say invested allot of money there but I think the laws concerning Farangs are very unjust and light years behind. My wife can come to my country and is treated to the best my immigration but in Thailand we are treated with contempt WHY

...what a logic we have here! so, we should deny basic rights based on the skin color, yes? ...and even if someone agree with this, then obviously you also have to considere the thai females as something inferior by not taking into the account that every limitation you put on her foreigner husband will inevitably cause some problem in her life too.

Politically, and at the macro-economic level, men control things here. They tolerate our marrying their women, since 99% of the time we take the ones no respectable Thai would be interested in anyway - and they have no interest in helping a Thai woman who married a foreigner. Of course if a Thai man marries a farang, he wouldn't want her inconvenienced.

Whether you are personally treated with contempt or not here has to do with your profession, wealth and class status just as with the Thais. But as a category in general it is true that they don't respect most farang who marry Thais, and most feel that's perfectly justified. And all kinds of discrimination are perfectly OK here, this is Thailand and you have to accept its ways, or more to someplace where things are more "fair" if you like.

does one need to give up their nationality if their Thai citizenship application is approved?

Depends on their nationality. Thailand accepts dual citizenship, and so does the US, so in my case no problem. If the two countries were in conflict and you acted on behalf of one against the interests of the other, then you could have problems.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Yes that expensive. A real Green Card on the other hand is much cheaper at $745 and offer much more rights and they are approved in a much shorter time frame.

This has been asked before but never answered - by "real green card" do you mean the American document? If so, why is that relevant here?

The funny thing about residing in this country without the PR, is that for a country like let's say Italy, they oblige their citizens to put their residence as "Thailand" if you stay here for more than 6 months in a year, then Thailand will refuse you as a resident, in fact leaving you as a sort of apolide or lets say "stray" individual...

The term "resident" applies specifically to the purposes of the government defining it. It doesn't have any specific meaning at all outside of a specific legal/financial context. It's quite possible to meet (or to avoid) the definition of resident in multiple juristictions at the same time, whatever suits your visa and tax purposes, but otherwise no need to legally resident anywhere, don't worry about it.

Never heard of "apolide".

Which is a good thing, because from that moment on, you don't have to pay taxes anymore

Unless you're unfortunate enough to be an American.

Edited May 9, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[BigJohnnyBKK]

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Only properly registered, tax-paying companies can process paperwork like work permits. None of what you're talking about is cheap nor easy. If your only motivation is avoiding visa runs and such, definitely not worth the effort.

[ubonjoe]

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Only properly registered, tax-paying companies can process paperwork like work permits. None of what you're talking about is cheap nor easy. If your only motivation is avoiding visa runs and such, definitely not worth the effort.

I am married to a Thai (over ten years) an am now on my forth extension of stay.

There is a clause in the work permit rules that allows for the husband of a Thai woman to get a work permit for a sole proprietor business set up by the wife with only 2 Thai employees needed.

By easier I was referring to no 90 day reports or the annual extension process. Plus citizenship would mean no re-entry permits would be needed, being able to travel to some nearby countries without a visa., owning property and a lot more benefits from being a Thai citizen.

[Mario2008]

1 flame post removed. Please keep it civil.

[Markaew]

Not true. I checked into it. Thailand doesn't allow foreign embassies to issue visas and work permits and Thailand will not issue a work permit for an embassy according to the US Embassy. They are not limited to PRs. They have to hire Thai nationals. That is the whole point. Thailand does this so only Thais and PRs can work in the embassies.

I believe you are misinformed as the Australian embassy for one regularly advertises for expat (and Thai national) positions. See: http://www.thailand....ok/Career1.html

In fact they have one available at the moment: http://www.thailand....acancy_LED.html

Maybe you are correct but the embassies generally don't state expats "with residency". As an exercise try applying for the job and let us know what happens. I did. That's how I got my information.

[givenall]

Does thismean the government needs money??

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[Arkady]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

My one question is that if male, married, made regular charitable donations, but retired, does that mean it's not possible to get Citizenship because of the Job and salary requirement?

Surely there must be an "or equivalent" or simialr sentence in the law for rich people who don't work, or retired people?

Unfortunately there is no way around the requirement to have a profession in Thailand, as evidenced by documentation proving employment and three years' salaries tax receipts because this is specified in the Nationality Act. Wealthy people can of course easily finesse this by setting up a company to manage some investments in Thailand and employment themselves.

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and I got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Theoretically this could work but you have to take into account that under the Nationality Act the approval of applications is up to the discretion of the minister. That means it is a not an automatic process whereby you get approved if you can tick all the boxes. "Up to the discretion of the minister" also means that the process is not subject to any form of appeal or judicial review for those who are rejected (or for those who just hear nothing for over 10 years). So now you are starting to get the picture. If there is something they don't like about your application, it can just be thrown into a pile of unpromising applications and left there permanently and there is nothing you can do about it. I personally would not want to go those the hassle of preparing an application on the flimsy basis of working for a Mickey Mouse company and I would think that a sole proprietorship would be a non-starter in terms of even obtaining a work permit. Remember that they want to get a feel that your presence in Thailand is making a significant contribution in terms of the knowledge and training you bring in your professional life.

When I said that wealthy people should be able to set up a company to employ themselves, I meant to say that it should also be a real business that provides employment to more than than the minimum four Thais and has more than the minimum Bt 2 million paid-up capital. The people who process citizenship (and PR) applications are not dumb and they have already seen all the scams you can think of and many others that you can't. But anyway, without PR and a tabian baan you are likely to be starting to be starting out 25 points down and you need 50 points out of 100 to even be allowed to submit your application and pay the fee. Being over 50 loses you another 2-5 points; not having a masters degree or PhD loses you another 2-7 points; not being able to read and write Thai and sing the Royal and National Anthems loses you 7 points, even if you can get the full 8 points for being able to speak and understand Thai fluently; being unable to read Thai fluently puts you at a considerable disadvantage in the written General Knowledge of Thailand multiple choice test which is worth 10 points.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Arkady

[ubonjoe]

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and I got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Theoretically this could work but you have to take into account that under the Nationality Act the approval of applications is up to the discretion of the minister. That means it is a not an automatic process whereby you get approved if you can tick all the boxes. "Up to the discretion of the minister" also means that the process is not subject to any form of appeal or judicial review for those who are rejected (or for those who just hear nothing for over 10 years). So now you are starting to get the picture. If there is something they don't like about your application, it can just be thrown into a pile of unpromising applications and left there permanently and there is nothing you can do about it. I personally would not want to go those the hassle of preparing an application on the flimsy basis of working for a Mickey Mouse company and I would think that a sole proprietorship would be a non-starter in terms of even obtaining a work permit. Remember that they want to get a feel that your presence in Thailand is making a significant contribution in terms of the knowledge and training you bring in your professional life.

When I said that wealthy people should be able to set up a company to employ themselves, I meant to say that it should also be a real business that provides employment to more than than the minimum four Thais and has more than the minimum Bt 2 million paid-up capital. The people who process citizenship (and PR) applications are not dumb and they have already seen all the scams you can think of and many others that you can't. But anyway, without PR and a tabian baan you are likely to be starting to be starting out 25 points down and you need 50 points out of 100 to even be allowed to submit your application and pay the fee. Being over 50 loses you another 2-5 points; not having a masters of PhD loses you another 2-7 points; not being able to read and write Thai and sing the Royal and National Anthems loses you 7 points, even if you can get the full 8 points for being able to speak and understand Thai fluently.

The work permit is possible. I could go digging and come up with some info on this and post it but not in the mood at moment to do it

It seems to me it might be worth the effort even if is not approved. I wonder if letters from some local politicos (Kamnan, TAO head and etc.)would help when you turn in the application. I think I can get letters from both 2 MP's (PTP) here in Ubon that I have met more than once that provided that are still MP's when I apply.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ubonjoe

[Arkady]

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Only properly registered, tax-paying companies can process paperwork like work permits. None of what you're talking about is cheap nor easy. If your only motivation is avoiding visa runs and such, definitely not worth the effort.

I am married to a Thai (over ten years) an am now on my forth extension of stay.

There is a clause in the work permit rules that allows for the husband of a Thai woman to get a work permit for a sole proprietor business set up by the wife with only 2 Thai employees needed.

By easier I was referring to no 90 day reports or the annual extension process. Plus citizenship would mean no re-entry permits would be needed, being able to travel to some nearby countries without a visa., owning property and a lot more benefits from being a Thai citizen.

There are many laws that have archaic clauses in them which no one has bothered to go to the trouble to get amended by act of parliament because they can easily amend them through ministerial regulations or national police orders in the case of immigration rules. In the past many more businesses than today were operated as sole proprietorships, unregistered partnerships or registered limited partnerships. If you believe that it is possible to get a work permit with a sole proprietorship today, please go ahead and try and report back to TV on it. Remember that you will have to satisfy both Immigration and the Labour Ministry with your business structure. Since they will want to see audited accounts, the sole proprietorship will have to produce these which will somewhat defeat the object of having a sole proprietorship rather than a limited company anyway.

[Arkady]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

The work permit is possible. I could go digging up some info on this an post it not in the mood at moment.

It seems to me it might be worth the effort even if is not approved. I wonder if letters from some local politicos (Kamnan, TAO head and etc.)would help when you turn in the application. I think I can get letters from both 2 MP's (PTP) here in Ubon that I have met more than once that provided that are still MP's when I apply.

Letters from influential person will not help because there is no provision in the ministerial regulations for "reference letters" and Special Branch cannot forward them to the Interior Ministry as part of the application. They will advise you that your influential friends are free to contact the minister direct, if they wish to try to lobby on your behalf. If they are influential enough they may well be able to help you either from the goodness of their hearts or for other consideration.

[ubonjoe]

If my wife was to set up a business as sole proprietor and got a work permit for that business as GM or such and paid taxes for 3 years then I could skip PR and go to citizenship. I assume that a business would be OK verses the costs of setting up a company. If we did that then I could also use the tax payments as proof of income for my extensions. I don't mind paying some taxes to make my latter years of life easier if it can lead to getting citizenship..

Only properly registered, tax-paying companies can process paperwork like work permits. None of what you're talking about is cheap nor easy. If your only motivation is avoiding visa runs and such, definitely not worth the effort.

I am married to a Thai (over ten years) an am now on my forth extension of stay.

There is a clause in the work permit rules that allows for the husband of a Thai woman to get a work permit for a sole proprietor business set up by the wife with only 2 Thai employees needed.

By easier I was referring to no 90 day reports or the annual extension process. Plus citizenship would mean no re-entry permits would be needed, being able to travel to some nearby countries without a visa., owning property and a lot more benefits from being a Thai citizen.

There are many laws that have archaic clauses in them which no one has bothered to go to the trouble to get amended by act of parliament because they can easily amend them through ministerial regulations or national police orders in the case of immigration rules. In the past many more businesses than today were operated as sole proprietorships, unregistered partnerships or registered limited partnerships. If you believe that it is possible to get a work permit with a sole proprietorship today, please go ahead and try and report back to TV on it. Remember that you will have to satisfy both Immigration and the Labour Ministry with your business structure. Since they will want to see audited accounts, the sole proprietorship will have to produce these which will somewhat defeat the object of having a sole proprietorship rather than a limited company anyway.

Immigration does need to see any company documentation concerning the business or company for an extension based upon marriage to a Thai which takes a lot of the hurdles out of the way.

I plan on doing some checking and such about setting up the business and etc. If looks better we can set it up as company (The wife's).

I was just reading the info posted in the pinned topic at top of this forum and could find the info about the 3 years if married to a Thai for applying for citizenship or the non PR clause. I will be at the 5 year point or over ot by the time I apply so that doesn't matter to me but the no PR is important.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ubonjoe

[ubonjoe]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

The work permit is possible. I could go digging up some info on this an post it not in the mood at moment.

It seems to me it might be worth the effort even if is not approved. I wonder if letters from some local politicos (Kamnan, TAO head and etc.)would help when you turn in the application. I think I can get letters from both 2 MP's (PTP) here in Ubon that I have met more than once that provided that are still MP's when I apply.

Letters from influential person will not help because there is no provision in the ministerial regulations for "reference letters" and Special Branch cannot forward them to the Interior Ministry as part of the application. They will advise you that your influential friends are free to contact the minister direct, if they wish to try to lobby on your behalf. If they are influential enough they may well be able to help you either from the goodness of their hearts or for other consideration.

They might very well do it out of the goodness of there hearts because my wife is the one that is acquainted with them more than I am. It certainly will not be a monetary consideration if that was what you were implying.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ubonjoe

[Time Traveller]

Yes that expensive. A real Green Card on the other hand is much cheaper at $745 and offer much more rights and they are approved in a much shorter time frame.

This has been asked before but never answered - by "real green card" do you mean the American document? If so, why is that relevant here?

The OP himself, referred to the 'Thai version of a "Greencard" ' in his original post. Whatever Thai PR is, it is not a Greencard and carries no such rights. That is is how it is relevant to this topic.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Time Traveller

[cyborgx]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

My one question is that if male, married, made regular charitable donations, but retired, does that mean it's not possible to get Citizenship because of the Job and salary requirement?

Surely there must be an "or equivalent" or simialr sentence in the law for rich people who don't work, or retired people?

Unfortunately there is no way around the requirement to have a profession in Thailand, as evidenced by documentation proving employment and three years' salaries tax receipts because this is specified in the Nationality Act. Wealthy people can of course easily finesse this by setting up a company to manage some investments in Thailand and employment themselves.

I'm on an Investment Visa at the moment, thinking of switching to Retirement (but don't really want to switch because according to Immigration, the Investment allows me to apply for PR)

Now considering bypassing PR for citizenship (in a few years obviously after I get married, go back to work, and become overly charitable )

[cyborgx]

Some great info here thanks Arkady.

The work permit is possible. I could go digging up some info on this an post it not in the mood at moment.

It seems to me it might be worth the effort even if is not approved. I wonder if letters from some local politicos (Kamnan, TAO head and etc.)would help when you turn in the application. I think I can get letters from both 2 MP's (PTP) here in Ubon that I have met more than once that provided that are still MP's when I apply.

Letters from influential person will not help because there is no provision in the ministerial regulations for "reference letters" and Special Branch cannot forward them to the Interior Ministry as part of the application. They will advise you that your influential friends are free to contact the minister direct, if they wish to try to lobby on your behalf. If they are influential enough they may well be able to help you either from the goodness of their hearts or for other consideration.

Hey! Careful now, someone is getting their quotes mixed up, that's not something I said

-------------------------------------------

Sorry Arkady, it was ubonjoe who got his quotes mixed up.

Edited May 9, 2012 by cyborgx

[Mario2008]

I wonder how close they will scrutinize a company. It is easy to file tax for an income of 40,000 a month while you are in reality not making that kind of money. But for PR or Thai nationality they might have a closer look at the company and see that it is not a realistic income and only on paper.

[cyborgx]

Sorry Arkady, it was ubonjoe who got his quotes mixed up.