Thai Residency Applications Being Approved

[Arkady]

Khutan, I am sorry to say that while your post made me chuckle....

Well I wish I could say the same for your response. The only feeling I have is pity for you.

Maybe you can read what I said again before you reply.

I am much obliged for your pity, Khutan, but your post, including the advice you received from your "top end" lawyer is still drivel.

[Arkady]

As a jump in topic.. Does anyone know any more about the 'buying' of PR via investment.

I know someone who did this, brought I think 1 mil USD (40m THB back then) into the country and I think he had a 5 year lockup.. He got PR on that basis. Does this still exist ??

What could i do with the money during that period ?? Equity / bonds only ??

There is still an investment category for PR but it seems based on the presumption that applicants invest in a business that they work in themselves, since work permit and salaries tax receipts are still required. Some of the other conditions are slightly different than for applicants working in other people's businesses but overall there doesn't seem much advantage. I don't think there has been any way to obtain PR in recent years without submitting work permit and salary tax receipts, including the category for supporting dependents who are Thai citizens, although one hears many similar stories of people "buying" PR.

There are other things that can be obtained through investment without a work permit, e.g. one year visas based on investment of Bt 10 million (for a while reduced to Bt 3 million) and the right to purchase up to one rai of land for residential purposes based on investment of Bt 40 million in approved investments not including the land. In practice I think the land purchase provision is impossible whatever documents you produce and I have never heard of anyone successfully doing this.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Arkady

[NewlyMintedThai]

As stated before, I have recently gone through the naturalization process with exactly zero mention of my original nationality made by any Thai official anywhere along the way.

Did you sign the letter stating you'd renounce your other nationality?

As another wrote, that doesn't actually affect anything, but perhaps could be grounds for them revoking later on when the regime changes.

I was not asked to sign any letter. There was zero mention of my original nationality at all.

As for future regimes...how will they know if you have or have not actually renounced, if you only use your Thai passport/ID when in Thailand?

Edited May 13, 2012 by NewlyMintedThai

[Thanet]

As stated before, I have recently gone through the naturalization process with exactly zero mention of my original nationality made by any Thai official anywhere along the way.

Did you sign the letter stating you'd renounce your other nationality?

As another wrote, that doesn't actually affect anything, but perhaps could be grounds for them revoking later on when the regime changes.

I was not asked to sign any letter. There was zero mention of my original nationality at all.

As for future regimes...how will they know if you have or have not actually renounced, if you only use your Thai passport/ID when in Thailand?

The letter was a recent addition. I got my citizenship in 2007 and didn't have to sign one, but a friend who applied more recently did.

[Arkady]

As stated before, I have recently gone through the naturalization process with exactly zero mention of my original nationality made by any Thai official anywhere along the way.

Did you sign the letter stating you'd renounce your other nationality?

As another wrote, that doesn't actually affect anything, but perhaps could be grounds for them revoking later on when the regime changes.

I was not asked to sign any letter. There was zero mention of my original nationality at all.

As for future regimes...how will they know if you have or have not actually renounced, if you only use your Thai passport/ID when in Thailand?

An easy way for them to check, if they have a mind to do so, would be to red flag any Thais leaving the country by air to travel to a country for which Thai passports need a visa without having a visa for that country in their Thai passport. The traveller will certainly have shown a foreign passport to the airline on checking in and the immigration officer only needs to ask the traveller to show his foreign passport, or failing that, ask the airline what travel documents were used at check in (pretty soon this information will probably be available to immigration electronically anyway). The reverse can also be done for travellers arriving from a Western country without an exit stamp from that country. Both are common practice in countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Zimbabwe and similar places that have a totally unenlightened attitude to dual nationality, although it should be noted that Singaporeans and Malaysians can now travel to many Western countries as a tourist without a visa. In fact immigration officers in those countries go further and conduct "paper trail" investigations in passports of travellers they deem suspicious, thumbing through their passports looking for evidence of cross border "disappearances" (a friend's Malaysian Chinese wife was subjected to this indignity). Malaysian immigration officers have also been known to rip up wannabe dual nationals' Malaysian passports right in front of the queue, even though they have no authority to do this and the proper procedure is to report the matter and let the court revoke the Malaysian nationality.

The question is whether the Thai authorities have a mind to do this or not. In Thailand anything is possible with "crackdowns" and threats announced by those in power almost on a daily basis. Nationality is one of those things that could potentially be whipped up as an emotional issue by those wishing to score cheap points through grandstanding just like land ownership, company ownership and ownership of remote Hindu temples. My personal feeling is that there is unlikely to be an effective "crackdown" of this sort, unless there is a definitive change in the Nationality Act to prohibit dual nationality for some or all categories of Thai citizen explicitly. While Singapore and Malaysia explicitly prohibit dual nationality in their constitutions, this is not the case in Thailand. Moreover there are effectively several different classes of citizen in Thailand with different strengths of claims to citizenship. Although dual citizenship was briefly prohibited for adult "look krung" for all of three weeks in 1992, dual citizens who obtained both foreign and Thai citizenships through birth to foreign and Thai parents now have the strongest claims to Thai citizenship. There is nothing in the Nationality Act that provides for revocation of their Thai citizenship period. Those who are Thai through birth in Thailand to alien parents have the weakest claim to Thai nationality, followed by naturalized Thais and there are provisions in the Act to revoke their Thai citizenship for use of their foreign father's nationality or their former nationality, although this "usage" is not clearly defined in the Act and revocation is not at all mandatory but is left to the discretion of the minister, if reported. Women who adopt the Thai nationality of their husbands have the next weakest claim. There are no sanctions relating to use of their former nationality, since it was assumed that would have been automatically revoked on marrying a foreigner as, before WW2 if probably would have been, but they can (and some have) lose their Thai nationality through bad behaviour. Finally the next category comprises those who are born Thai but obtain another nationality through naturalization. There is an ambiguous provision in the Act that could be interpreted to mean their Thai nationality should be revoked but historically under the current 1965 Act this has been interpreted as an option to renounce Thai nationality, if they wish or more likely are obliged to by the other country (in the pre-1965 Act is was more explicit that their Thai nationality could be automatically revoked and it, indeed, was in many cases).

So there you have it. It would be a nightmare for immigration officers to differentiate between the different classes of Thai nationality and have to grovel apologies to dual national "poo yai" that inadvertently get caught up in their nefarious net and they might even get socked in the jaw like the security officer at Swampy who had the temerity to conduct a security search on a senior employee of AOT. For examples of "poo yai" dual nationals we need only look to two recent prime ministers and a finance minister, not to mention the possibility that some of their children may also have foreign passports through birth to a foreign father who is foreign through birth overseas, or through birth overseas in their own right. I also have the feeling that the Interior Ministry has no wish to revoke nationality from people they have gone to a great deal of trouble to vet and approve as Thai, as it might look as if they had made a horrible mistake. The majority of applicants are probably from countries that explicitly prohibit dual nationality, e.g. China and India. I suspect the declaration was aimed at making them think twice about applying and thus reduce the ministry's workload. But as I said earlier, anything is possible in Thailand.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Arkady

[Gonsalviz]

...and be relieved of 190,000 Baht to be granted this Thai version of a "green card".

Does it really cost over $6,000 to apply for citizenship? Yikes.

Yes that expensive. A real Green Card on the other hand is much cheaper at $745 and offer much more rights and they are approved in a much shorter time frame.

Am I to assume that a "Real Green Card" is the USA variety - or have I missed some Thai option here?

Even then a green card is not green.

[tombkk]

{snip for brevity}

So there you have it. It would be a nightmare for immigration officers to differentiate between the different classes of Thai nationality and have to grovel apologies to dual national "poo yai" that inadvertently get caught up in their nefarious net and they might even get socked in the jaw like the security officer at Swampy who had the temerity to conduct a security search on a senior employee of AOT. For examples of "poo yai" dual nationals we need only look to two recent prime ministers and a finance minister, not to mention the possibility that some of their children may also have foreign passports through birth to a foreign father who is foreign through birth overseas, or through birth overseas in their own right. I also have the feeling that the Interior Ministry has no wish to revoke nationality from people they have gone to a great deal of trouble to vet and approve as Thai, as it might look as if they had made a horrible mistake. The majority of applicants are probably from countries that explicitly prohibit dual nationality, e.g. China and India. I suspect the declaration was aimed at making them think twice about applying and thus reduce the ministry's workload. But as I said earlier, anything is possible in Thailand.

Add Germany to that list. Law says that you lose your German nationality the moment you apply for another nationality. However, there is an exception: If you can prove hardship if you don't apply for that other nationality and at the same time want to keep your German nationality due to strong ties to Germany, you can apply for approval to apply for the other nationality.

I know of at least one German who received this approval, and of at least one German who gave up his German nationality in order to become a Thai citizen. I also know of least one German who cancelled his application for Thai nationality at a late stage because he would have to give up his German nationality when becoming a Thai national. All these three gentleman (all male) had different legal circumstances, and my point is that it is not easy to generalize. In fact, each case is different.

Back to the topic, this thread is about PR, not citizenship. Big difference. Let's discuss PR over here.

[Arkady]

{snip for brevity}

So there you have it. It would be a nightmare for immigration officers to differentiate between the different classes of Thai nationality and have to grovel apologies to dual national "poo yai" that inadvertently get caught up in their nefarious net and they might even get socked in the jaw like the security officer at Swampy who had the temerity to conduct a security search on a senior employee of AOT. For examples of "poo yai" dual nationals we need only look to two recent prime ministers and a finance minister, not to mention the possibility that some of their children may also have foreign passports through birth to a foreign father who is foreign through birth overseas, or through birth overseas in their own right. I also have the feeling that the Interior Ministry has no wish to revoke nationality from people they have gone to a great deal of trouble to vet and approve as Thai, as it might look as if they had made a horrible mistake. The majority of applicants are probably from countries that explicitly prohibit dual nationality, e.g. China and India. I suspect the declaration was aimed at making them think twice about applying and thus reduce the ministry's workload. But as I said earlier, anything is possible in Thailand.

Add Germany to that list. Law says that you lose your German nationality the moment you apply for another nationality. However, there is an exception: If you can prove hardship if you don't apply for that other nationality and at the same time want to keep your German nationality due to strong ties to Germany, you can apply for approval to apply for the other nationality.

I know of at least one German who received this approval, and of at least one German who gave up his German nationality in order to become a Thai citizen. I also know of least one German who cancelled his application for Thai nationality at a late stage because he would have to give up his German nationality when becoming a Thai national. All these three gentleman (all male) had different legal circumstances, and my point is that it is not easy to generalize. In fact, each case is different.

Back to the topic, this thread is about PR, not citizenship. Big difference. Let's discuss PR over here.

I have heard of but not met a German who apparently obtained permission from the embassy to retain his German nationality in the event his Thai nationality application is approved on the grounds that he is a businessman who wishes to remain a Kraut but needs Thai nationality to avoid discriminatory laws that prevent him from owning his own business and land. On the other hand there are many Thais living in Germany who renounce their Thai nationality to become German. I suppose it is assumed that Thais who have decided to make their lives in Germany have no further need of Thai nationality to protect ownership of any investments their may have in Thailand. Perhaps they could also get the same exemption in reverse, if they applied for it, but most (they are predominantly female names) went to Germany for a better life and probably have no significant investments in Thailand. Also Germany's nationality laws are essentially racist in nature. I was born there to foreign parents and, not that I ever had any interest in it, had no right to nationality at a time when most countries gave nationality to anyone born there, as neither parent could have proved blood of the Master Race was coursing in their veins. Today's German nationality laws are largely aimed at denying citizenship to the huge Turkish population or at least forcing them to give up their Turkish citizenship, if they insist on being German. So Thais wanting to retain their Thai nationality are probably also out of luck for that reason.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Arkady

[tombkk]

I have heard of but not met a German who apparently obtained permission from the embassy to retain his German nationality in the event his Thai nationality application is approved on the grounds that he is a businessman who wishes to remain a Kraut but needs Thai nationality to avoid discriminatory laws that prevent him from owning his own business and land. On the other hand there are many Thais living in Germany who renounce their Thai nationality to become German. I suppose it is assumed that Thais who have decided to make their lives in Germany have no further need of Thai nationality to protect ownership of any investments their may have in Thailand. Perhaps they could also get the same exemption in reverse, if they applied for it, but most (they are predominantly female names) went to Germany for a better life and probably have no significant investments in Thailand. Also Germany's nationality laws are essentially racist in nature. I was born there to foreign parents and, not that I ever had any interest in it, had no right to nationality at a time when most countries gave nationality to anyone born there, as neither parent could have proved blood of the Master Race was coursing in their veins. Today's German nationality laws are largely aimed at denying citizenship to the huge Turkish population or at least forcing them to give up their Turkish citizenship, if they insist on being German. So Thais wanting to retain their Thai nationality are probably also out of luck for that reason.

Well, I have met Germans who have obtained that permission. I also disagree with you on several levels. But that is totally off-topic in this thread, so let's discuss that somewhere else.

[Time Traveller]

Also Germany's nationality laws are essentially racist in nature. I was born there to foreign parents and, not that I ever had any interest in it, had no right to nationality at a time when most countries gave nationality to anyone born there, as neither parent could have proved blood of the Master Race was coursing in their veins. Today's German nationality laws are largely aimed at denying citizenship to the huge Turkish population or at least forcing them to give up their Turkish citizenship, if they insist on being German.

So, German nationality laws are the same as Thailand's then?

[Arkady]

Also Germany's nationality laws are essentially racist in nature. I was born there to foreign parents and, not that I ever had any interest in it, had no right to nationality at a time when most countries gave nationality to anyone born there, as neither parent could have proved blood of the Master Race was coursing in their veins. Today's German nationality laws are largely aimed at denying citizenship to the huge Turkish population or at least forcing them to give up their Turkish citizenship, if they insist on being German.

So, German nationality laws are the same as Thailand's then?

No they are and were worse. If I had been born to foreign parents, even illegal immigrants, in Thailand rather than Germany, I would have automatically got Thai citizenship. Germany actually forces people who are approved for German citizenship to show evidence they have got rid of their other nationality before they can become German, whereas Thailand just sends a letter to the embassies of newly naturalised Thais for information. Thais wanting to get other nationalities don't have to get permission from their embassies first like Germans do. They just go out and do it and their embassies are totally supportive of their dual national status afterwards.

[SaNim]

No they are and were worse. If I had been born to foreign parents, even illegal immigrants, in Thailand rather than Germany, I would have automatically got Thai citizenship. Germany actually forces people who are approved for German citizenship to show evidence they have got rid of their other nationality before they can become German, whereas Thailand just sends a letter to the embassies of newly naturalised Thais for information. Thais wanting to get other nationalities don't have to get permission from their embassies first like Germans do. They just go out and do it and their embassies are totally supportive of their dual national status afterwards.

I understood that only children born here of foreign parents who both have PR would be entitled to Thai citizenship.

[lopburi3]

Believe Arkady is showing his age - decades ago rules were different - at this time being born in Thailand does not make you Thai.

[samran]

No they are and were worse. If I had been born to foreign parents, even illegal immigrants, in Thailand rather than Germany, I would have automatically got Thai citizenship. Germany actually forces people who are approved for German citizenship to show evidence they have got rid of their other nationality before they can become German, whereas Thailand just sends a letter to the embassies of newly naturalised Thais for information. Thais wanting to get other nationalities don't have to get permission from their embassies first like Germans do. They just go out and do it and their embassies are totally supportive of their dual national status afterwards.

I understood that only children born here of foreign parents who both have PR would be entitled to Thai citizenship.

Pre-1971, effectively anyone born on Thai soil, bar children of diplomats and I believe - those on visas less than 3 months in lengh - got citizenship as a matter of course. Arkady knows this better than I do, but in that era, being on a long stay visa of any type effectively meant you got PR.

Post 1971 to 1992 - anyone born to two foreign parents can apply for Thai citizenship to be granted automatically if they have maintained a link to Thailand. This can be done via the Ampur, rather than the normal citizenship vetting process at the MOI and Police Special Branch.

[Arkady]

Believe Arkady is showing his age - decades ago rules were different - at this time being born in Thailand does not make you Thai.

Fair cop. I admit that I was born before December 1971 when the revolutionary decree banning citizenship from those born in Thailand to alien parents without PR (and stripping it from them retroactively) came into effect.

[samran]

Believe Arkady is showing his age - decades ago rules were different - at this time being born in Thailand does not make you Thai.

Fair cop. I admit that I was born before December 1971 when the revolutionary decree banning citizenship from those born in Thailand to alien parents without PR (and stripping it from them retroactively) came into effect.

Still, back then, many countries employed the same principle.

It has only been since the 1980's that countries have changed to the 'need a parent(s) to be PR' rule for citizenship to be gained.

US now is the only major exception that I can think of- and only due to the face it is in the constitution and not just plain old legislation which can be changed at a relative whim.

Edited May 25, 2012 by samran

[lopburi3]

Believe Malaysia confers birth citizenship (at least I know they actively blocked a Phillipa at border when I was making run who wanted entry to have child there for citizenship reasons).

Warning:

- Ladies in an advanced stage of pregnancy (i.e. 6 months or

more), are not allowed to enter Malaysia, except if being in

transit for a stay of max. 72 hours.

every person born within Malaysia who is not born a citizen of any country otherwise than by virtue of this paragraph

[Javabear]

Believe Arkady is showing his age - decades ago rules were different - at this time being born in Thailand does not make you Thai.

Fair cop. I admit that I was born before December 1971 when the revolutionary decree banning citizenship from those born in Thailand to alien parents without PR (and stripping it from them retroactively) came into effect.

Still, back then, many countries employed the same principle.

It has only been since the 1980's that countries have changed to the 'need a parent(s) to be PR' rule for citizenship to be gained.

US now is the only major exception that I can think of- and only due to the face it is in the constitution and not just plain old legislation which can be changed at a relative whim.

That would be the 14th ammendment to the US Constitution. It was enacted to confer citizenship to the children of slaves who were brought to the US against their will. Now it is being taken advantage of by many nationalities to have "anchor babies" so they can stay in the US.

[SaNim]

Believe Arkady is showing his age - decades ago rules were different - at this time being born in Thailand does not make you Thai.

Assumptions - I assumed Arkady was referring to current legislation, not his personal status.

I assumed Arkady was a her.

Ass u me , just goes to show, read more slowly and use the interface between eyes and fingers.

[Arkady]

Here is a list of jus soli jurisdictions http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/952136 which may or may not be entirely accurate. Most are in Latin America and the Caribbean where there are several treaties similar to the EU treaty that allows citizens from other countries in the region the right to live and work freely in other treaty countries. And some freely sell their citizenship. So extreme nationalism about citizenship may be less of an issue to them in general and maybe that's the way things will go in future as the world gets smaller and globalisation takes hold. I believe that Canada was one of the few that moved in the opposite direction by granting jus soli rights in 1977. Canadian nationality is a relatively new concept anyway, having only been invented in 1947.

There is a movement in the US to argue that children of illegal immigrants are not covered by the 14th amendment since their parents had not subjected themselves to US jurisdiction by entering and residing illegally. However, the courts have traditionally been solidly behind the blanket interpretation of the 14th and any party that tried to change things would have to deal with a backlash from Hispanic and black voters. So jus soli is probably there to stay.

An interesting angle is how countries deal with jus sanguis. Thailand grants this in perpetuity. Anyone born to a Thai parent anywhere in the world is Thai and this can theoretically go on for generations until there are thousands of Thais around the world with hardly a drop of Thai blood who can't speak a word of Thai and have never visited their homeland, even though this is highly unlikely since most of those will not bother to pursue Thai nationality. The Brits cut the blood line off promptly after one generation born abroad. The next generation is only British is born in the UK. The US has a similar cut off but I think the second generation's children can be American if born overseas, if their parents can show that they have actually lived in the US for some years. Thailand has only recently started to have significant communities overseas and I think they would like to keep the link with overseas Thai communities. So I don't forsee any move to curtail jus sanguis for Thais born overseas with another nationality.

[Arkady]

I understood that only children born here of foreign parents who both have PR would be entitled to Thai citizenship.

Pre-1971, effectively anyone born on Thai soil, bar children of diplomats and I believe - those on visas less than 3 months in lengh - got citizenship as a matter of course. Arkady knows this better than I do, but in that era, being on a long stay visa of any type effectively meant you got PR.

Post 1971 to 1992 - anyone born to two foreign parents can apply for Thai citizenship to be granted automatically if they have maintained a link to Thailand. This can be done via the Ampur, rather than the normal citizenship vetting process at the MOI and Police Special Branch.

Prior to Dec 1971 even children of illegal aliens born in Thailand were entitled to Thai citizenship. The reason for the revolutionary decree was ostensibly concerns about the threat to national security posed large numbers of Indochinese children being born in refugee camps along Thailand's borders. There were no work permits then and consequently no IMM-B visas. Under the Immigration Act expats either had three month business visas or PR which was relatively easy for every one except Chinese to obtain because only Chinese came up against the quota of 100 per year per nationality. In fact most of the people stripped of Thai nationality by the revolutionary decree were Chinese, who were either the real target at the time or collateral damage that was not regretted by the military government of the day which also still considered them a Cold War threat.

Under the 2008 Nationality Act those born in Thailand to alien parents without PR between 1971 and 1992 and those stripped of their nationality by the revolutionary decree are eligible to register as Thai at the amphur, as you say. However, it is not very straightforward or automatic and it seems that nothing much happens without pushing by NGOs. Most of those involved were born in Thailand to stateless parents which complicates things in terms of providing necessary documentation. On the other hand some unscrupulous district officers have been using the new provision as a window of opportunity to make money by issuing ID cards to people from the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere who weren't born in Thailand.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Arkady

[samran]

Arkady - as always, explains it best.

[RubbaJohnny]

Republic of Ireland allows second generation claims from those with grandparents born on the entire island,and anchor babies tho I believe this was repealed after 2005-6ish due to widespread abuse in recent years.

http://www.irishabroad.com/travel/irish-citizenship/Articles/irish-citizenship-birth-descent.aspx

[PhilipCook]

residency approval letter received, going next week to pay, fork over more documents and photos at the immigration office, the local police and the khet(district office).

[sas_cars]

residency approval letter received, going next week to pay, fork over more documents and photos at the immigration office, the local police and the khet(district office).

Would u mind sharing which batch ? 2008?