Prem Accord Leaves The Red Shirts Simmering

[h90]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

No; with Socialism.

And Socialism is the reduced version of communism.....

[Skywalker69]

New elite talking with the old elite.

If anyone thought that would never happen then they were seriously misguided, deluded or more likely just plain naive.

It will be very interesting for Thai politics if the Redshirts can organise themselves into something visibly different to PT.

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The redshirts still don't get it, do they?

The vast majority of them just want a fair deal for the people. The PT politicians just want a good deal, as many as possible in fact, for themselves.

Under PT the redshirts will never be anything more than footsoldiers.

Agreed, and in Thaksin´s eyes they have served their purpose.

[Skywalker69]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

No; with Socialism.

And Socialism is the reduced version of communism.....

Communism-light

[h90]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

No; with Socialism.

And Socialism is the reduced version of communism.....

Communism-light

thanks....that I wanted to write....

And it is like Coke and Coke lite.

Coke lite is a bit less damaging for the body but also tastes less sweet....

Or Socialism is Communism for cowards.....

[sparebox2]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

In general, yes.

Red China, The Soviet Union and its satellites, Mao's Little Red Book, "A red under every bed" (McCarthyism.)

Sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists.

Manchester United, Arsenal & Liverpool are not.

They are opportunist, greedy communists. A real communist who believes to do good for the people by being communist can't support Thaksin who is the worst nightmare of a communist.

A commie must demand to nationalize Thaksins wealth and not giving him back the tax money.....A lot of his majesties projects of self sufficient communities are much closer to the communist thinking than all the things Thaksin did to make the poor more depending of the big companies.

They really must read their own books again....

Everyone is equal (big brother Thaksin can not earn more money or be treated different than the lowest labor)

Everyone gets the same chances (no family clans, free education)

Taking away the money from the rich (not giving them more taxpayer money)

Nationalizing companies, not privatizing as Thaksin did.

If sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists, why are they not arrested and put to jail or re-education camp?

Communists is a crime and punish by law right?

I even heard that shooting a communist is not a crime in the USA, and it is encouraged, that is why they (the American) went to Vietnam (&Korea, & Laos, & Cuba, etc).

Edited May 10, 2012 by sparebox2

[ramrod711]

To the red shirts, Thaksin and Yingluck have already caved in. The fighting against the establishment over the past years, which claimed many lives among them, came to naught. Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power.

Absolutely true, Thaksin doesn't care about poor people, if you think for a moment that prime minister photo-op has shopped in a thai market other than when there are cameras about you are dreaming

[h90]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

In general, yes.

Red China, The Soviet Union and its satellites, Mao's Little Red Book, "A red under every bed" (McCarthyism.)

Sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists.

Manchester United, Arsenal & Liverpool are not.

They are opportunist, greedy communists. A real communist who believes to do good for the people by being communist can't support Thaksin who is the worst nightmare of a communist.

A commie must demand to nationalize Thaksins wealth and not giving him back the tax money.....A lot of his majesties projects of self sufficient communities are much closer to the communist thinking than all the things Thaksin did to make the poor more depending of the big companies.

They really must read their own books again....

Everyone is equal (big brother Thaksin can not earn more money or be treated different than the lowest labor)

Everyone gets the same chances (no family clans, free education)

Taking away the money from the rich (not giving them more taxpayer money)

Nationalizing companies, not privatizing as Thaksin did.

If sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists, why are they not arrested and put to jail or re-education camp?

Communists is a crime and punish by law right?

I even heard that shooting a communist is not a crime in the USA, and it is encouraged, that is why they (the American) went to Vietnam (&Korea, & Laos, & Cuba, etc).

??? I don't know from Thailand but many countries have communist parties......India, Austria, Italy, Greece, Russia, in Germany renamed to Linkspartei, etc etc ....

Nothing wrong with that.....

[rixalex]

"...To the red shirts, Thaksin and Yingluck have already caved in. The fighting against the establishment over the past years, which claimed many lives among them, came to naught. Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power..."

This of course was obvious from day one.

Now Thaksin has opened Pandora's little Red Box

and is finding them hard to put back in it.

This too was totally predictable from day one.

It may be obvious to you now but for a long time the line of the usual suspects was that the red shirts had no meaningful agenda and were simply to a lesser or greater degree unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition.Now even the most reactionary factions don't claim this nonsense to be true.Can we expect an admission of error from the motley band of reactionaries? Don't hold your breath.

To date, the red shirts have had no meaningful agenda and they have been, to a lesser or greater degree, unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition. How many years do we have to hear red shirt sympathisers like yourself telling us all of this will ultimately lead to something good for Thai democracy and for Thai working classes. It's all a pipe dream. Wake up. This is not the movement, nor the moment. Your triumphant cries of "see, i told you so" are just plain silly.

[Mosha]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

It's mostly seen as a left wing colour, although in the USA I think it's used to represent the Republican party.

Not really the Republicans have never been to far to the left more to the right and now the far right. The way PTP is throwing around money at present would have been ok with George Bush but this bunch in control now would be haveing a fit.

On US election maps blue represents Democrats, red the Republicans if Wiki is to be believed. I never said the Republicans were left. The are well to the right of most European right wing parties.

[hellodolly]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

In general, yes.

Red China, The Soviet Union and its satellites, Mao's Little Red Book, "A red under every bed" (McCarthyism.)

Sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists.

Manchester United, Arsenal & Liverpool are not.

They are opportunist, greedy communists. A real communist who believes to do good for the people by being communist can't support Thaksin who is the worst nightmare of a communist.

A commie must demand to nationalize Thaksins wealth and not giving him back the tax money.....A lot of his majesties projects of self sufficient communities are much closer to the communist thinking than all the things Thaksin did to make the poor more depending of the big companies.

They really must read their own books again....

Everyone is equal (big brother Thaksin can not earn more money or be treated different than the lowest labor)

Everyone gets the same chances (no family clans, free education)

Taking away the money from the rich (not giving them more taxpayer money)

Nationalizing companies, not privatizing as Thaksin did.

If sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists, why are they not arrested and put to jail or re-education camp?

Communists is a crime and punish by law right?

I even heard that shooting a communist is not a crime in the USA, and it is encouraged, that is why they (the American) went to Vietnam (&Korea, & Laos, & Cuba, etc).

She should go to one of the red shirt schools set up by the red shirts to teach democracy. Strange lady and group of red shirts. The leade wants Communism and the followers want their own brand of Democracy.

[ianf]

This is an interesting debate because it has been obvious to me since the red occupation of Bangkok that there is no core ideology to the red shirt movement. I have asked a few red shirts what they 'believe' in and they found this question hard to answer. By contrast you ask a communist about their ideology and they won't stop yabbering! I have to go back to a quote I have used before which comes from Mein Kampf (Hitler's opus): He wrote that you cannot move the masses through 'argumentation' (ie: policies) but through emotional 'manipulation'. If you want the exact quote please ask but for now (as I have to go and do some work for Mrs me) this will have to do. The fact that this was the tactic displayed during the red occupation is interesting because it allows one to draw parallels. The speeches from the red stage were aimed at an emotional level; I heard little, if anything, that could be called 'policy'. Indeed if I am wrong about this perhaps the red supporters on this board (who seem to have a monopoly on truth) could enlighten us all. Off course emotional manipulation at this level is a dangerous game and one that can easily get out of control if the leader doesn't understand the game in its entirety. I believe that we'll see the result of this (outcomes) over the next couple of years. The outcome will depend on what tack is chosen by the puppeteers who control the great red leader who in turn controls the clone. We'll see.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ianf

[h90]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

It's mostly seen as a left wing colour, although in the USA I think it's used to represent the Republican party.

Not really the Republicans have never been to far to the left more to the right and now the far right. The way PTP is throwing around money at present would have been ok with George Bush but this bunch in control now would be haveing a fit.

On US election maps blue represents Democrats, red the Republicans if Wiki is to be believed. I never said the Republicans were left. The are well to the right of most European right wing parties.

When you look at the extreme right and the extreme left you'll find that they have many similarities.

[jayboy]

"...To the red shirts, Thaksin and Yingluck have already caved in. The fighting against the establishment over the past years, which claimed many lives among them, came to naught. Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power..."

This of course was obvious from day one.

Now Thaksin has opened Pandora's little Red Box

and is finding them hard to put back in it.

This too was totally predictable from day one.

It may be obvious to you now but for a long time the line of the usual suspects was that the red shirts had no meaningful agenda and were simply to a lesser or greater degree unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition.Now even the most reactionary factions don't claim this nonsense to be true.Can we expect an admission of error from the motley band of reactionaries? Don't hold your breath.

To date, the red shirts have had no meaningful agenda and they have been, to a lesser or greater degree, unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition. How many years do we have to hear red shirt sympathisers like yourself telling us all of this will ultimately lead to something good for Thai democracy and for Thai working classes. It's all a pipe dream. Wake up. This is not the movement, nor the moment. Your triumphant cries of "see, i told you so" are just plain silly.

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

Curious how some people's thought processes unravel when firmly held positions are shown to be unsustainable

[gand]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

It's mostly seen as a left wing colour, although in the USA I think it's used to represent the Republican party.

Before 2000 the GOP was Blue states, the left wing media changed it.

[ianf]

"...To the red shirts, Thaksin and Yingluck have already caved in. The fighting against the establishment over the past years, which claimed many lives among them, came to naught. Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power..."

This of course was obvious from day one.

Now Thaksin has opened Pandora's little Red Box

and is finding them hard to put back in it.

This too was totally predictable from day one.

It may be obvious to you now but for a long time the line of the usual suspects was that the red shirts had no meaningful agenda and were simply to a lesser or greater degree unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition.Now even the most reactionary factions don't claim this nonsense to be true.Can we expect an admission of error from the motley band of reactionaries? Don't hold your breath.

To date, the red shirts have had no meaningful agenda and they have been, to a lesser or greater degree, unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition. How many years do we have to hear red shirt sympathisers like yourself telling us all of this will ultimately lead to something good for Thai democracy and for Thai working classes. It's all a pipe dream. Wake up. This is not the movement, nor the moment. Your triumphant cries of "see, i told you so" are just plain silly.

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

Curious how some people's thought processes unravel when firmly held positions are shown to be unsustainable

Exactly. The red shirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interest. In fact I'd go further and say that Thaksin himself possibly has paymasters elsewhere.

[Siam Simon]

Exactly. The red shirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interest. In fact I'd go further and say that Thaksin himself possibly has paymasters elsewhere.

Oh dear! I feel a Scoots Cartalucci global conspiracy theory coming up. Have you read Scoots' fellow global conspiracy theorist David Icke? He has some brilliant observations about all the globalist leaders being shape-shifting alien lizards. It's fascinating stuff. Phew! my head's hot! I need to take this tin foil hat off for a while. Hope i'll be safe.

[h90]

This is an interesting debate because it has been obvious to me since the red occupation of Bangkok that there is no core ideology to the red shirt movement. I have asked a few red shirts what they 'believe' in and they found this question hard to answer. By contrast you ask a communist about their ideology and they won't stop yabbering! I have to go back to a quote I have used before which comes from Mein Kampf (Hitler's opus): He wrote that you cannot move the masses through 'argumentation' (ie: policies) but through emotional 'manipulation'. If you want the exact quote please ask but for now (as I have to go and do some work for Mrs me) this will have to do. The fact that this was the tactic displayed during the red occupation is interesting because it allows one to draw parallels. The speeches from the red stage were aimed at an emotional level; I heard little, if anything, that could be called 'policy'. Indeed if I am wrong about this perhaps the red supporters on this board (who seem to have a monopoly on truth) could enlighten us all. Off course emotional manipulation at this level is a dangerous game and one that can easily get out of control if the leader doesn't understand the game in its entirety. I believe that we'll see the result of this (outcomes) over the next couple of years. The outcome will depend on what tack is chosen by the puppeteers who control the great red leader who in turn controls the clone. We'll see.

Well I think you must separate between the common red shirt and the few old hardcore red shirts. The few hardcore red shirts speak exactly the same as the old commies were I studied in Austria. A 100 % copy/paste + translation. Only they water it down with their emotional propaganda.....

the pure commie talk can't be survived longer than 10 min without falling asleep and if they get internal arguments stalinists against leninists again marxists against trotzkists against maoists than it get very strange.... no one can follow that discussion......

[Siripon]

The common red shirts, the 99% majority, simply want a better life economically,,and united under Thaksin is their only hope, because once there is no common leader with power to control and direct their movement they're hopelessly split.

[whybother]

Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power.

No Sh!t, Sherlock.

Edited May 10, 2012 by whybother

[whybother]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

[khaowong1]

Communism bubbles under in parts of Isaan still today, and were the political stance of the reds to be obviously that way, there is no way that the army would countenance them having any significant political role. It is one thing for Prem and Yingluck to have a cup of tea together to work out if there is a way for Thaksin to get back, it is a completely different thing for extreme left wing politics to come into the mainstream of Thai politics.

Of course there are many shades of red, it would be interesting to see how scarlet any policies of a "red shirt" party would be.

Yes the communist bubble is still active. I was at a National Park up in Issan earlier this year that is dedicated to some communist people who were eventually killed in a battle back in the 70's sometime. I asked the Thai people I was with if they actually understand that if these communist uprisers had won their battle, the wouldn't have a King they are so proud of and support, they didn't seem to understand the link between the communists and their anti Royal and anti religious stance. I'm 99 per cent sure that thought I didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

[jayboy]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

[whybother]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

So it's "PAD admirer" then.

[jayboy]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

So it's "PAD admirer" then.

Huh? Having trouble in comprehension I see.

[OzMick]

Huh? Having trouble in comprehension I see.

Not as much as some farang in a distant tower who fails to see that the basic PAD motive was rebellion against Thaksin's blatant corruption, and still the thinks that the red movement would survive without his funding.

[rixalex]

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

I'm saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now it still doesn't. I judge the red shirt movement not by what noises it makes, but by what action it takes. And to repeat, i can't think of one thing it has done it terms of the betterment of Thai democracy, or the betterment of Thai working classes. Perhaps you could argue that it has made the working classes feel like they have a voice, but for me there is not much value in that if that feeling is just a pretence that will be taken from them the moment their purpose has been served... which is precisely what i believe will happen.

If i'm proven wrong then great. Then you can tell me, "told you so".

[jayboy]

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

I'm saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now it still doesn't. I judge the red shirt movement not by what noises it makes, but by what action it takes. And to repeat, i can't think of one thing it has done it terms of the betterment of Thai democracy, or the betterment of Thai working classes. Perhaps you could argue that it has made the working classes feel like they have a voice, but for me there is not much value in that if that feeling is just a pretence that will be taken from them the moment their purpose has been served... which is precisely what i believe will happen.

If i'm proven wrong then great. Then you can tell me, "told you so".

No serious social commentator or analyst agrees with you.The current split in the redshirt movement also makes your position untenable.Nobody is suggesting that Thaksin hasn't exploited the movement for his own ends, financed it, even brought it into being.However it's a bit like the Mickey Mouse figure in the cartoon Fantasia (the Pandora box analogy has become overused) who has conjured up a force he can't control.I don't think the redshirt movement has done much for democracy (indeed I have concerns on this matter).What it has done however is to ensure the Thai majority can never be condescended to, ignored. patronised and exploited ever again - by a greedy, unrepresentative and corrupt set of unelected elites..I have no interest in scoring debating points but if you can't grasp this simple point it's time for you to do some hard thinking.The major error you make is to believe that Thailand is somehow a world on its own not subject to the social forces every country experiences.Hatred of Thaksin is understandable (though the motives of the haters vary considerably) but no educated or informed person can deny his catalytic effect.

[rixalex]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

My position regarding the PAD hasn't become more guarded, it has simply changed because of actions they took and things they said, that i didn't agree with. Perhaps with the manner in which so many posters here become so deeply entrenched in a particular viewpoint that they find themselves defending the most ridiculous of things (e.g. hospital "intrusions" / airport take overs), or the most ridiculous of people (e.g. Yingluck / Suthep), you find the idea of someone changing their viewpoint an unusual concept?

[jayboy]

Not as much as some farang in a distant tower who fails to see that the basic PAD motive was rebellion against Thaksin's blatant corruption, and still the thinks that the red movement would survive without his funding.

Anger with Thaksin was one important motive of the early PAD movement and I have always agreed that many honourable and decent people shared that view.However if you believe that as time progressed this was PAD's only motive (particularly of the discredited leadership) that is a cartoonish way of looking at the world, satisfactory for an unsophisticated teenager perhaps but not an educated adult.

[whybother]

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

So it's "PAD admirer" then.

Huh? Having trouble in comprehension I see.

You speak of one "PAD admirer". And then you speak of others that no longer admire them.