Thai Police Arrest Brit With Foetuses For Black Magic

[chooka]

And thinking about cultural norms...

Taking a step back from the culture i grew up in, and observing this from the outside, there are issues that are cultural norms in our culture that personally disgust me a lot more than when somebody here puts a mummified human fetus in his own home or temple, and worships the spirit contained in it.

A few examples:

I find it disgusting not to remove one's shoes when entering a home, carrying dirt and bacteria from the street into the home.

I find it disgusting to sit on a toilet, and prefer the least possible skin contact with the toiled seat, and think squatting is a far more refined way of relieving oneself.

I have a few problems with shaking hands, as i don't know, and don't want to know what the other person has done before shaking my hand.

etc.

From the standpoint of vectors for transmission of infection you are making sense about toilet seats. However in taking your shoes off you are exposing your socks or bare feet to fungus or infectious bacteria that someone else may have left behind. Then you put your shoes back on and provide a nice moist, warm, dark environment which is ideal for the cultivation of whatever microbes your feet came in contact with. Shaking hands? Your reasoning is ridiculous. In that case you'd best not be touching any money. Just think how many hands you are "shaking" when you handle that filthy stuff.

Nicknostitz sounds like your classic everyday misanthrope.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

I agree, but so many are "programmed" into us from birth by our culture it's hard to separate them from evidence based truth.

For example how many of the following are "true" for you?

* study hard, get good grades, get a good degree, get a good job work hard and you'll be financially secure

* the idea of "romantic love" - ie the overwhelming feeling - is the best basis for choosing a life partner

* sex is something that should be strictly controlled by social mores so it fits into the mainstream accepted patterns

* people that are radically different from "us" are suspect by default

* modern science already has most of the fundamental truths about reality, if it can't explain something then it can't be true

* people of wealth and power are to be respected as being inherently better and more worthy than ordinary people

* free markets and technology left relatively unregulated will solve most of humanities problems and eventually put an end to human misery

* trust your government, especially its "security" agencies, as they are devoted to the interests of the country's citizens

More to the point, even if you intellectually agree that the above culturally programmed memes are largely false superstitions, it's most likely that you engage in dialogue with others and live your life as if they are true.

It is the shared belief and that behavior that gives superstitions their enormous power, the power of collective unconscious human minds is IMO beyond our comprehension - any belief shared by enough people in a given place and time in effect becomes "true", at least in certain ways, for that context, and they become self-reinforcing.

Socrates' allegory of the cave, the film The Matrix, the story of the elephant and the blind men, are all relevant to my point. We create our own reality, and the reality created by Thai culture is no more accurate or true than our own.

Where there are cross-cultural conflicts between our mores, we should try to rise above our cultural programming and apply objective standards to decisions about what is "right" and what is "wrong", because most of our mores have little to do with objective ethics.

Edited May 20, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[submaniac]

Thai guman tong (kumantong) commercial:

[bendejo]

We all originated in Africa.

What means we, pale face?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

We all originated in Africa.

What means we, pale face?

Aren't you homo sapiens?

Or do you believe evolution is also a superstition?

[DP25]

British my arse, and i stick by that even if he/she does have a British Passport..

They give our passports to anyone these days. Have you landed in heathrow recently? You wouldn't think you where in England. If you say anything you're called racist.

Lets not forget; the most popular boys name in England for the last 5 years or so has been "muhammad"

Nice story but utter BS (unless you want it to be "true"), see below for 2011:

It is true if you include ALL the spellings of Muhammad. In your list each spelling is ranked separately, Mohammed, Muhammad, Mohammad etc. Add em all up and it is the most popular boys name now.

[gand]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

I agree, but so many are "programmed" into us from birth by our culture it's hard to separate them from evidence based truth.

For example how many of the following are "true" for you?

* study hard, get good grades, get a good degree, get a good job work hard and you'll be financially secure

* the idea of "romantic love" - ie the overwhelming feeling - is the best basis for choosing a life partner

* sex is something that should be strictly controlled by social mores so it fits into the mainstream accepted patterns

* people that are radically different from "us" are suspect by default

* modern science already has most of the fundamental truths about reality, if it can't explain something then it can't be true

* people of wealth and power are to be respected as being inherently better and more worthy than ordinary people

* free markets and technology left relatively unregulated will solve most of humanities problems and eventually put an end to human misery

* trust your government, especially its "security" agencies, as they are devoted to the interests of the country's citizens

More to the point, even if you intellectually agree that the above culturally programmed memes are largely false superstitions, it's most likely that you engage in dialogue with others and live your life as if they are true.

It is the shared belief and that behavior that gives superstitions their enormous power, the power of collective unconscious human minds is IMO beyond our comprehension - any belief shared by enough people in a given place and time in effect becomes "true", at least in certain ways, for that context, and they become self-reinforcing.

Socrates' allegory of the cave, the film The Matrix, the story of the elephant and the blind men, are all relevant to my point. We create our own reality, and the reality created by Thai culture is no more accurate or true than our own.

Where there are cross-cultural conflicts between our mores, we should try to rise above our cultural programming and apply objective standards to decisions about what is "right" and what is "wrong", because most of our mores have little to do with objective ethics.

So every crime under the sun can be justified by ideology/religion/CULTure? Including necrophilia and pedophilia? I don't think so.

"Egypt’s women urge MPs not to pass early marriage, sex-after-death laws: report" ‘Farewell Intercourse’

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/25/210198.html

[folium]

British my arse, and i stick by that even if he/she does have a British Passport..

They give our passports to anyone these days. Have you landed in heathrow recently? You wouldn't think you where in England. If you say anything you're called racist.

Lets not forget; the most popular boys name in England for the last 5 years or so has been "muhammad"

Nice story but utter BS (unless you want it to be "true"), see below for 2011:

It is true if you include ALL the spellings of Muhammad. In your list each spelling is ranked separately, Mohammed, Muhammad, Mohammad etc. Add em all up and it is the most popular boys name now.

Beware what you read in the Daily Mail (the Hitler-loving comic)!!

Add up the various spellings and it comes fourth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/28/top-100-baby-names-oliver-olivia

But so what anyway? 7 out of the top 20 boys names are Jewish in origin, heaven forbid!

[DP25]

Beware what you read in the Daily Mail (the Hitler-loving comic)!!

Add up the various spellings and it comes fourth.

http://www.guardian....s-oliver-olivia

But so what anyway? 7 out of the top 20 boys names are Jewish in origin, heaven forbid!

That only added up the variant spellings that were in the top 100. There are more variant spellings that are not listed in the top 100. With those it is number 1

It's not just the Daily Mail that says it

http://www.telegraph...urite-name.html

[folium]

Beware what you read in the Daily Mail (the Hitler-loving comic)!!

Add up the various spellings and it comes fourth.

http://www.guardian....s-oliver-olivia

But so what anyway? 7 out of the top 20 boys names are Jewish in origin, heaven forbid!

That only added up the variant spellings that were in the top 100. There are more variant spellings that are not listed in the top 100. With those it is number 1

It's not just the Daily Mail that says it

http://www.telegraph...urite-name.html

Now why would "newspapers" such as the Telegraph and Mail want to run this story?

And it seems that while they counted up all the Muhammed variants, the inconvenient fact is if you add the Ollie count to the Oliver count the handy headline doesn't actually work by a comfortable margin. But nice try anyway.

Meanwhile back on topic, a somewhat morbid question, but what gender are these foetuses that are used, or does it not matter?

Edited May 20, 2012 by folium

[BigJohnnyBKK]

So every crime under the sun can be justified by ideology/religion/CULTure? Including necrophilia and pedophilia? I don't think so.

"Egypt’s women urge MPs not to pass early marriage, sex-after-death laws: report" ‘Farewell Intercourse’

http://english.alara.../25/210198.html

Absolutely not, each jurisdiction determines what is "crime" and what isn't, and then the "enlightened west" uses its political/economic weight to try to bring them in line with its own culture's ideas.

In the case of necrophilia I would think that would violate nearly every culture's mores, but I don't see it as inherently unethical. Sure it's creepy, but I recognize that's just a personal aesthetic judgement call on my part. For those that feel compelled to engage in such activities I would hope they would receive help rather than a lengthy time in jail.

The issue of age of consent is a particularly thorny one, but I know regarding myself I was completely capable of making up my own mind whether or not and with whom I would choose to have sex by the time I was 13-14. In fact I experimented with both older men and women during that period, it was completely consensual and in no way would it have been right for them to have been punished for our activities. My parents were happy for me to have girls sleep over, but I never got involved with men enough to feel the need to bring that up, just felt I couldn't be sure I wasn't gay unless I'd tried it.

Of course the law requires black and white rules and can't interpret every case on its own merits. However I do feel that we've gone way overboard in imposing the most conservative imaginable standards on cultures where it is common and acceptable for kids to fool around - at least here such laws are only enforced on foreigers, which I guess is fair enough.

Kids these days are much more knowledgable and mature than they were in the past, and I sure hope I'm bringing my current crop up so that they are capable of making independent and informed judgements by that age - I know my first batch turned out OK and felt comfortable discussing sex drugs etc with us from eight right through into their twenties.

[jimpthai]

Let's see now... What religion is it that believes in the virgin birth and the resurrection (not to mention a host of other "miracles"), and ceremoniously eats the blood and flesh of its "lord"? Oh, what silly superstitions and disgusting practices those are? For those to whom I must explain, that last line is what we call sarcasm. I'm not an expert on Buddhism, so can anyone tell me if Buddhists as an institution have ever instigated a bloody conquest, crusade, or insurrection (without being provoked)?

Edited May 20, 2012 by jimpthai

[Mosha]

British my arse, and i stick by that even if he/she does have a British Passport..

They give our passports to anyone these days. Have you landed in heathrow recently? You wouldn't think you where in England. If you say anything you're called racist.

Lets not forget; the most popular boys name in England for the last 5 years or so has been "muhammad"

Nice story but utter BS (unless you want it to be "true"), see below for 2011:

The top 100 boys' names in 2011

1. Oliver

2. Jack

3. Harry

4. Charlie

5. James

6. Joshua

7. Alfie

8. Thomas

9. Jacob

10. Ethan

11. Noah

12. Daniel

13. George

14. William

15. Samuel

16. Alexander

17. Oscar

18. Lucas

19. Dylan

20. Max

21. Benjamin

22. Henry

23. Leo

24. Ryan

25. Matthew

26. Finley

27. Isaac

28. Aiden

29. Jayden

30. Jake

31. Joseph

32. Alex

33. Logan

34. Luke

35. Muhammad

Now I bet West Yorkshire gives another result

[ginjag]

British my arse, and i stick by that even if he/she does have a British Passport..

They give our passports to anyone these days. Have you landed in heathrow recently? You wouldn't think you where in England. If you say anything you're called racist.

Lets not forget; the most popular boys name in England for the last 5 years or so has been "muhammad"

Nice story but utter BS (unless you want it to be "true"), see below for 2011:

The top 100 boys' names in 2011

1. Oliver

2. Jack

3. Harry

4. Charlie

5. James

6. Joshua

7. Alfie

8. Thomas

9. Jacob

10. Ethan

11. Noah

12. Daniel

13. George

14. William

15. Samuel

16. Alexander

17. Oscar

18. Lucas

19. Dylan

20. Max

21. Benjamin

22. Henry

23. Leo

24. Ryan

25. Matthew

26. Finley

27. Isaac

28. Aiden

29. Jayden

30. Jake

31. Joseph

32. Alex

33. Logan

34. Luke

35. Muhammad

Now I bet West Yorkshire gives another result

and Linclinshire. Ha......more than likely Fred - Bill - John- Bert

[gand]

So every crime under the sun can be justified by ideology/religion/CULTure? Including necrophilia and pedophilia? I don't think so.

"Egypt’s women urge MPs not to pass early marriage, sex-after-death laws: report" ‘Farewell Intercourse’

http://english.alara.../25/210198.html

Absolutely not, each jurisdiction determines what is "crime" and what isn't, and then the "enlightened west" uses its political/economic weight to try to bring them in line with its own culture's ideas.

In the case of necrophilia I would think that would violate nearly every culture's mores, but I don't see it as inherently unethical. Sure it's creepy, but I recognize that's just a personal aesthetic judgement call on my part. For those that feel compelled to engage in such activities I would hope they would receive help rather than a lengthy time in jail.

The issue of age of consent is a particularly thorny one, but I know regarding myself I was completely capable of making up my own mind whether or not and with whom I would choose to have sex by the time I was 13-14. In fact I experimented with both older men and women during that period, it was completely consensual and in no way would it have been right for them to have been punished for our activities. My parents were happy for me to have girls sleep over, but I never got involved with men enough to feel the need to bring that up, just felt I couldn't be sure I wasn't gay unless I'd tried it.

Of course the law requires black and white rules and can't interpret every case on its own merits. However I do feel that we've gone way overboard in imposing the most conservative imaginable standards on cultures where it is common and acceptable for kids to fool around - at least here such laws are only enforced on foreigers, which I guess is fair enough.

Kids these days are much more knowledgable and mature than they were in the past, and I sure hope I'm bringing my current crop up so that they are capable of making independent and informed judgements by that age - I know my first batch turned out OK and felt comfortable discussing sex drugs etc with us from eight right through into their twenties.

So, you are not for equal rights, you are not a proponent of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - United Nations then?

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

[Narratio]

Back to the front page, with tongue firmly in cheek and a black humour upon me...

When I first saw the headline "Thai police arrest Brit with foetuses for black magic", I thought to myself why did the Thai police use foetuses to arrest a Brit and what use would he be in a black magic ritual?" Of course I blamed my fuzzy thinking upon a long weekend with nothing to do except drink wine.

So, a Taiwanese man with a British passport carrying 6 'roasted' human foetuses which had then been covered in gold foil. Hmmm.

Is there a name for this hobby? Did Fannie Craddock, Julie Childs or Jamie Oliver cover this in a TV cooking course? Does the Royal College of Goldsmiths have a little used course in gold foil embossment of foetal human remains?

This guy and his clients obviously thought there was nothing wrong, distasteful or even mildly obscene in what they were doing. So I'll chalk this one down to yet another disconnect in western and eastern cultures. And then, when I'm home, spend a few minutes rooting around the family Buddha shrine and check out the spirit house... just in case.

[BlackArtemis]

Someone better explain to them that just because the bottle says "baby powder"....

Sorry if that joke was covered already.

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to objectionable content has been removed.

[Unkomoncents]

Google: "fetus soups". No links to "objectionable sites". This is supposedly a myth, but that's highly suspect considering the predilection for "tonics" in China and an association with culinary quasi-mythology.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[NewlyMintedThai]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

If you include religion -- all of them -- in that, I'm right with you.

[webfact]

Autopsies on foetuses will determine charges: police

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Criminal charges in a notorious case of a Taiwanese man suspected of illegal possession of six foetuses will be depend on autopsy results.

If the bodies' lungs showed signs of respiration the man could face a murder charge, otherwise the cases would be abortion-related, a police general who heads the Institute of Forensic Medicine said yesterday.

The results could also determine the causes of their death, whether they were prematurely taken out of their mothers' wombs, while the DNA of the foetuses would also be checked to help identify who their parents were, Pol Maj General Somboon Tantrakool said.

The chief of Phabphla Chai police, Colonel Rungroj Sayanprasert who leads the probe, said legal interpretations over the condition of the foetuses and whether they had signs of life must coincide with public prosecutors' decision on what charge the suspect should be indicted on. "Indicting the suspect on the wrong charge could be result in him being set free," he said. Two of the six foetuses had the potential to show signs of life.

Police sources quoted details from questioning of suspect Chow Hok Kuen, 28. He had allegedly entered Thailand 16 times since 2008, when he bought two foetuses on his first trip, they said. He later allegedly put foetuses into luggage loaded into cargo compartments instead of a carry-on bag to avoid detection when flying out of Thailand.

Chow bought the bodies from hospitals, temples and clinics that illegally performed abortions, mostly in Samut Prakan, at an average price of Bt30,000, police alleged. They had learnt of a few locations but could not tell where they were.

-- The Nation 2012-05-22

[gand]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

If you include religion -- all of them -- in that, I'm right with you.

Of course.

[kerryk]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

If you include religion -- all of them -- in that, I'm right with you.

Of course.

Wow, never thought I would agree with you on anything! We actually agree 100%

[sbk]

off topic posts deleted, lets do try to stay remotely on topic, as horrific as it is.

[gand]

off topic posts deleted, lets do try to stay remotely on topic, as horrific as it is.

Agreed, but there are posts on here that say this is common in Thailand? I was under the impression you are Thai, Do you know if this is common in Thailand or not?

[sbk]

I didn't delete those, I deleted off topic posts regarding most popular names which, near as I can tell has nothing to do with anything in this topic at all.

I am not Thai, and where I live, no it doesn't happen

[BigJohnnyBKK]

So, you are not for equal rights, you are not a proponent of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - United Nations then?

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Don't see anything in there about prohibiting the use of discarded foetuses for non-mainstream religious practices.

Although I'm not opposed to it, nor the UN framework as a theoretical force for progress in the world, the whole idealistic concept of "international law" is a very fragile web easily brushed away by realpolitik, selectively ignored by nearly all countries when it suits them, especially the more economically developed ones. It only tends to be enforced on the small and poor ones, so no I don't give it much weight, certainly not as some universal arbiter of black-and-white rules of morality.

And true ethics very often has little to do with any given system of law. I try to base my behavior on the former as much as possible, on the latter when appropriate from a practical POV.

[swillowbee]

... so ... you have a hot order for a suitcase filled with fresh baby foetuses? ... where else you gonna' go? ... Thailand, of course!

... where Thai greed is now more powerful than the Thai Buddha.

[Para]

off topic posts deleted, lets do try to stay remotely on topic, as horrific as it is.

Agreed, but there are posts on here that say this is common in Thailand? I was under the impression you are Thai, Do you know if this is common in Thailand or not?

Cant comment on the deleted post as I have no idea what it said but Guman Thong and Khun Paen Amulets are incredible common. Khun Paen (gives) the wearer the belief of power over women (you need to know the whole story to understand that odd comment) Personally I would say a Khun Paen Amulet is second only to the Somdej style......

[BirdsandBooze]

Wow.

I don't know how many times I've been told by members here that "you may hold a Thai passport, but you'll never be a Thai to the locals -- unlike in America or Europe where once you are naturalized you are instantly an American or Brit to everyone".

I guess this thread puts that little myth to rest once and for all.

I`ve never heard that once you are a naturalised UK citizen everyone regards you as a Brit, quite the opposite in fact. Because of the way that passports have been dished out freely in the past decade I would say that the likelihood of acceptance is even less now. Most Pakistanis in the UK, whether born in Pakistan or Britain refer to themselves as British Pakistanis. I doubt whether Mr Asif at the embassy would care or lose any sleep over the title. Go to the cricket test matches at the Oval or Headingley and Pakistanis with London or Yorkshire accents will be cheering on the visitors. There isn`t necessarily anything wrong with that because they see themselves as Pakistani first, as do the Chinese regard themselves as Chinese. It`s usually insidious members of the British chattering classes who are the first to cry racism if non Celt/Anglo Saxons aren`t referred to as being a Briton. Yesterday I asked my Thai golfing partners that if I had a Thai passport would they consider me to be a fellow Thai. They laughed and said I was bah, I`d always be English, same as the Indians are still Indians and the Chinese still Chinese here. Old ideas die hard, which is why in the 21st century what is taboo (mummified feutuses in the spare bedroom) to us Westerners is perfectly normal to someone of Asian descent. It`s a different culture, that`s all.