OldAsiaHand Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 It really seems to me that these book threads generally errupt into nasty, personal conflicts for a pretty obvious reason. It has always been my view that a central truth to life in Thailand is that most of the foreigners here really don't have much regard for most of the other foreigners who are here. The various novelists we usually discuss, if that is the word for what we do, seem to me to appeal almost exclusively to just one strata of our little local society here (if 'society' is the right word either). By attacking the novelist, you attack the kind of people who read his novels. The barflys hate those who aren't barflys. The educated hate those who aren't educated. The winners hate the losers. The poor hate the rich. And around and around we go. Who wants to be the first to contemptously sneer that I obviously don't know anything about Thailand when I say the various strata of foreign life here are generally contemptous of the other strata of foreign life here? Your honor, I rest my case...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chonabot Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) I think it applies to personal taste and occasionaly sometime will criticise anothers choice of ( in this case ) books. These comments are often misconstrued as attacks on ones intellectual right to choose reading material. In a similar way to what sports team you like or what type of Music you enjoy. People will always have differing opinions and when that opinion strays into knowledge references we are always going to have a few ding-dongs. Some will read books for fun and others will refer to them as life saving manuals. btw I liked your choice of books. Edited January 3, 2006 by chonabot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Chi Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 OldAsiaHand "Your honor, I rest my case......" Judge "Guilty as charged, you are herby sentenced to 6 months in the Monkey House. Where your only form of entertainment will be the complete and entire works of that well loved and respected Thai author.....Pira Sudham" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books...... others understand books..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Lynn Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Wow, I just wanted a few suggestions for myself and my listeners. I've read a fair number of books about Thailand. I will say when I have discussions, especially with poets, I can a little hot. But it is strange who that book thread developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suegha Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A very profound reply gburns57au... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... OK... Anyone here understand "Ulysses" by James Joyce? ...I know - it's not Thai related but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... OK... Anyone here understand "Ulysses" by James Joyce? ...I know - it's not Thai related but... mmmm......Nope I cant understand Ulysses at all.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Turner Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 It really seems to me that these book threads generally errupt into nasty, personal conflicts for a pretty obvious reason. It has always been my view that a central truth to life in Thailand is that most of the foreigners here really don't have much regard for most of the other foreigners who are here. The various novelists we usually discuss, if that is the word for what we do, seem to me to appeal almost exclusively to just one strata of our little local society here (if 'society' is the right word either). By attacking the novelist, you attack the kind of people who read his novels. The barflys hate those who aren't barflys. The educated hate those who aren't educated. The winners hate the losers. The poor hate the rich. And around and around we go. Who wants to be the first to contemptously sneer that I obviously don't know anything about Thailand when I say the various strata of foreign life here are generally contemptous of the other strata of foreign life here? Your honor, I rest my case...... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm afraid that's just people OAH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't forget the pretentious phonies who pretend to understand them better than the rest of us, but, really don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) OAH, I'm amazed you'd start a thread with this subject, since you are the prime instigator of the nastiness. What kind of two-faced behavior is this?? If you go back to the last couple book threads, you were the first to launch into the personal attacks. In the last thread, you were the first to bring up paranoid social/cultural/educational biases you perceive between yourself and others on the thread. Is THIS thread a phony whitewashing of your own objectionable behavior? What a joke. You'll only get your "yes-buddies" to pat your poo-poo here. I popped over here to see if you indeed were having some kind of change of heart. Apparently, not. Just looking for old cronies to soothe-say you in your anti-social behaviour. OldAsiaHand "Your honor, I rest my case......" Judge "Guilty as charged, you are herby sentenced to 6 months in the Monkey House. Where your only form of entertainment will be the complete and entire works of that well loved and respected Thai author.....Pira Sudham" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...and I add (for the ultimate torture): "....which literary works will be read to him out loud by a Ph.D. in English Literature, intoned with a high-brow British Oxford accent!" Suck on that egg (to quote a "good-willed" forum poster). Or, more productively, put the character-assassin's gun down, Mr. FBI, and start learning how to dialogue in a civil manner. Edited January 3, 2006 by toptuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... Don't forget the pretentious phonies who pretend to understand them better than the rest of us, but, really don't. So on topic me old sparring partner....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't forget the pretentious phonies who pretend to understand them better than the rest of us, but, really don't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So on topic me old sparring partner....... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just another observation, old chum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Nah that was a fact....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbkudu Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 OAH, I'm amazed you'd start a thread with this subject, since you are the prime instigator of the nastiness. I would agree, but who am I but just an insignifcant poster. On another thread OAH chastised another member for asking why a US bank account would be worth while. OAH's pleasant reply was something like, 'That remark is the height of stupidity.' Is it really necessary to belittle fellow posters in this manner? BOG (Bitter Old Git) might be a better nick for OAH . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I think the point is that reading preferences sharply differentiates the membership.In the same way that it is easy to get a very accurate and revealing impression of somebody when you see the selection books-or lack of them-in their houses.Normally subjects discussed here-health,travel,food and drink,even politics -and of course girls-are not really divisive, in fact they bring the forum together.But views on books-particularly on Thai subjects- tend to underline differences in education,background,intellectual discrimination etc.Thus when the bar stool brigade start trumpeting the virtues of hacks they unwittingly betray their own debased tastes.Generally the theme is "I may not be a fancy pants intellectual but my opinion is as good as some toffee nosed Oxbridge intellectual." Dream on guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I think the point is that reading preferences sharply differentiates the membership.In the same way that it is easy to get a very accurate and revealing impression of somebody when you see the selection books-or lack of them-in their houses.Normally subjects discussed here-health,travel,food and drink,even politics -and of course girls-are not really divisive, in fact they bring the forum together.But views on books-particularly on Thai subjects- tend to underline differences in education,background,intellectual discrimination etc.Thus when the bar stool brigade start trumpeting the virtues of hacks they unwittingly betray their own debased tastes.Generally the theme is "I may not be a fancy pants intellectual but my opinion is as good as some toffee nosed Oxbridge intellectual." Dream on guys. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ya, the flatland notion that all of us are equally entitled to our opinions, and that each opinion holds the same democratic weight as the next is a feel too good poison to accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chownah Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I think that this happens because most people who read books regularly think that it makes them smart....but really it doesn't. I'ts like people who play chess...they think it makes them smart...but really ilt doesn't. It's like people who do crossword puzzles....they think it makes them smart....but really it doesn't. It's like people who have attended a university....they think it made them smart....but really it didn't. It's like people who post insults...they think it shows how smart they are...but really it shows how vulgar they are. Why are people so fixated on being smart? Half of the people in the world are of below average intelligence and they are just as worthwhile, well adjusted, and happy as the other half.....they are also just as worhtless, maladjusted, and sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 But views on books-particularly on Thai subjects- tend to underline differences in education,background,intellectual discrimination etc.Thus when the bar stool brigade start trumpeting the virtues of hacks they unwittingly betray their own debased tastes.Generally the theme is "I may not be a fancy pants intellectual but my opinion is as good as some toffee nosed Oxbridge intellectual." Dream on guys. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK, got it, so anyone who liked "A Woman of Bangkok" is an intellectually and morally superior, bull-goose, Oxford scholar, and anyone who liked "Private Dancer" is a drunken, lowlife, retard. How about if you liked both of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 (edited) Why are people so fixated on being smart? Half of the people in the world are of below average intelligence and they are just as worthwhile, well adjusted, and happy as the other half.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe even better off, Chownah! An ongoing sociological study done among Americans compares students' high school grades and achieving a later standard of "modest success" (defined as a good-paying job, stable family, comfortable living environment, satisfying hobbies, etc.--all of which could be argued as not being legitimate or complete standards of "success," of course). Here are the results as best as I can remember: An amazingly high percentage of the "A" students ended up unemployed, on welfare, in jail, or working menial and dissatisfying jobs. Many of these students earning higher marks were smart but lazy, and had tried to slide by in life with the least amount of effort. The "C" students obtained the overall highest marks for later success in life. They seemed to have been the most well-balanced individuals, who had a good balance of determination, hard work, and maximized their average abilities. Now grades aren't a fool-proof measure of intelligence, but as I've met my old high school buddies over the years, it's been uncanny how they have fallen into the same patterns as revealed by the study. Our former straight-A student body president is serving a 30 year prison sentence for high-level fraud and embezzlement. One of my "C" buddies is a well-paid electrician (owns his own company) with a large home on beach-front property, sweet family, and has earned his private pilot's license. I remember that throughout school, he could hardly read due to a problem with dyslexia. IMHO, reaching a level of personal satisfaction in life and career is a combination of 10% intelligence, 10% inspiration, and 80% hard work. That pretty much puts us all on a level playing field. Edited January 4, 2006 by toptuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 How about if you liked both of them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Another disgustingly well-balanced individual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldAsiaHand Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well, I suppose I've just succeeded in moving the personal attacks to another thread, haven't I? The plain fact is that most people here seem incapable of distinguishing between a sharp response to what was said and a sharp response about the poster himself. One example, and I will keep my peace, although I know I'm going to regret it opening this can of worms. A poster above labels me as 'nasty' for a posting in another thread. Somebody asked about how to open a US bank account and the first reply was something along the lines of 'why would anyone want a US bank account.' When I subsequently tried to answer the question asked, I apparently also said something to the effect that the first answer was 'stupid.' Let's try to use that as an illustration of my point then, shall we? Someone asked for help and information in a perfectly sensible way, and then gets a silly answer like 'why would anyone want a US account?' What use is that answer to anyone? Did it help the poster? Was it even amusing? Saying then that it was a stupid response does indeed have some basis in fact, even if you disagree with my characterization. Regardless, it was not a characterization of the poster, only of his posting. By contrast, the posting that led me to begin this thread was one that called me a liar("I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU!"). I'm not sure what that could be other than a completely personal attack. I was asked a factual question, I answer it, I was told bluntly that I was lying. What possible purpose does a posting like that serve other than turing a conversation with sharply differing points of view into a purely personal attack? There is a distinction here that matters and therefore this seemed to me to be a point worth trying to make in an effort to improve the level of discourse here; however, as I said above, I have a feeling that I'm going to regret even trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I guess it is because some people just read books......others understand books..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK... Anyone here understand "Ulysses" by James Joyce? ...I know - it's not Thai related but... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> mmmm......Nope I cant understand Ulysses at all.............. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You get points for honesty here. I don't get it either, but any book that you have to read with a guide that tells you what it really means, seems worth putting off for as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 (edited) ...this seemed to me to be a point worth trying to make in an effort to improve the level of discourse here <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [VIOLINS AGAIN] The best effort you could make would be to clean up your own act. Edited January 4, 2006 by toptuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I don't get it either, but any book that you have to read with a guide that tells you what it really means, seems worth putting off for as long as possible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is that why the "Cliff's Notes" version of most "classics" continue to outsell the original book in nearly every college and university bookstore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 But views on books-particularly on Thai subjects- tend to underline differences in education,background,intellectual discrimination etc.Thus when the bar stool brigade start trumpeting the virtues of hacks they unwittingly betray their own debased tastes.Generally the theme is "I may not be a fancy pants intellectual but my opinion is as good as some toffee nosed Oxbridge intellectual." Dream on guys. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK, got it, so anyone who liked "A Woman of Bangkok" is an intellectually and morally superior, bull-goose, Oxford scholar, and anyone who liked "Private Dancer" is a drunken, lowlife, retard. How about if you liked both of them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No I'm afraid you haven't really got it.As a review in the Bangkok Post today correctly points out, both Bart Simpson and Shakespeare are brilliant in their different ways.Good books don't have to be heavy, intellectual and pretentious to have merit.Indeed such books probably wouldn't be very good anyway. Jack Reynolds book, though 50 years old, is a far superior work to "Private Dancer" but in the overall scheme of things doesn't of course rank very high.I wouldn't for a moment suggest people who liked "Private Dancer" were low life retards.Obviously they're not and most of us have read or skim read it anyway.It is likely however that most people who take it as well written may not -how to put it kindly-have a useful reference to make a judgement of much value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well, I suppose I've just succeeded in moving the personal attacks to another thread, haven't I? The plain fact is that most people here seem incapable of distinguishing between a sharp response to what was said and a sharp response about the poster himself. Suppose that you had just innocently recommended a book that you loved and someone replied as below. Wouldn't you feel highly insulted? A Nobel Prize for Literature nominee living in rural Isan? It's true! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, come on. And the Pope is my dad. That self-promoting, no-talent idiot Sudham has been peddling that 'Nobel Prize' crap for years and you actually fell for it? Complete and utter rubbish. ANYONE can be nominated. All it takes is a letter. It doesn't have to be endorsed by anyone. You can write a letter and make Thaksin a nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize. Gee, I wonder if he's thought of that.... As for Sudham's books.....well, in my view his 'Nobel Prize' fantasy is the best fiction he's ever written. The novels themselves are so poorly written that you will laugh and so brutally dull that you will have to. Unless you're one of those foreigners who think living in a dirt-floored Issan hut somehow makes you morally superior to everyone else, you'll never make it through one of them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And how exactly is this related to whether the man can write a coherent sentence, let alone an entire novel? You are actually underscoring the very point I was making. If it weren't for a few patronizing, I'm-More-Culturally-Aware-Than-Thou academic snobs (such as yourself?) who insist on trying to set social standards for the rest of us ordinary folk, no one would ever have heard of Sudham. His heart may bleed, but he's a lousy writer. And by the way, I've known him for almost ten years. Satisfied? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorFart Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 The barflys hate those who aren't barflys. The educated hate those who aren't educated. The winners hate the losers. The poor hate the rich. And around and around we go. What if you're an middle income educated barfly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Jack Reynolds book, though 50 years old, is a far superior work to "Private Dancer" but in the overall scheme of things doesn't of course rank very high.I wouldn't for a moment suggest people who liked "Private Dancer" were low life retards. Obviously they're not and most of us have read or skim read it anyway.It is likely however that most people who take it as well written may not -how to put it kindly-have a useful reference to make a judgement of much value. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You already have suggested that people who liked "Private Dancer" are on the dim side; That horse is already out of the barn. However, I don't recall anyone claiming that it was "well-written", just that it was informative and enjoyable reading. Sometimes, that's good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 OAH, I'm amazed you'd start a thread with this subject, since you are the prime instigator of the nastiness. What kind of two-faced behavior is this?? If you go back to the last couple book threads, you were the first to launch into the personal attacks. In the last thread, you were the first to bring up paranoid social/cultural/educational biases you perceive between yourself and others on the thread.Is THIS thread a phony whitewashing of your own objectionable behavior? What a joke. You'll only get your "yes-buddies" to pat your poo-poo here. I popped over here to see if you indeed were having some kind of change of heart. Apparently, not. Just looking for old cronies to soothe-say you in your anti-social behaviour. OldAsiaHand "Your honor, I rest my case......" Judge "Guilty as charged, you are herby sentenced to 6 months in the Monkey House. Where your only form of entertainment will be the complete and entire works of that well loved and respected Thai author.....Pira Sudham" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...and I add (for the ultimate torture): "....which literary works will be read to him out loud by a Ph.D. in English Literature, intoned with a high-brow British Oxford accent!" Suck on that egg (to quote a "good-willed" forum poster). Or, more productively, put the character-assassin's gun down, Mr. FBI, and start learning how to dialogue in a civil manner. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> About time someone said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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