Land Price Ok? + Build Price?

[cheeryble]

Hi there

You know going up the Mae Sai road north of CR, going past the airport turn off another mile maybe on the left is it called Ban Du market?

Next to that there's a left turn and it goes up several km into what becomes a very lovely valley.

To identify it there's a spring baths on a bend in the road where there's a 100 baht massage in front. Go past that another couple of km there's a church on the right (the whole valley seems to be very Christian, which looks great at Christmas they love lots of lights it's rather a fairyland).

Off to the right near the end is 500 (or some number) of steps up from the only wat .i know of.

As you approach the top of the valley you go up and there's a hilltribe village. Before this there's a stream with little falls in a government touristy type place.

The whole valley seems to be favoured, there are resort type places going up and a couple of moo bahns back nearer the main road starting now. It's not long into CR city, maybe 20 minutes.

Here's the thing.

I live in CHiangmai, but we visit CR quite often.

We've been offered a couple of rai from a relative of gf who wants to put the son through uni etc.

It's a km or so from the top end of the valley, ie the prettiest area.

It's off the valley road which most dwellings are strung out along, a couple hundred yards off to the left, butting up to a low hill with trees and small pineapple fields, the nearest of which are owned by other relatives.

It really is a nice situation, and the lots neighbouring towards the road are the gf's sister and family (really lovely people who I've known for 5 years now, and right next door another uncle-in-law who has a rustic retreat with a lovely big pond.

So......no noise from traffic or people, great surroundings, and people to keep an eye on it in future......and my gf would have her beloved young neice and nephew nearby and maybe somewhere to live permanently when I expire.

Water: only one rice crop per annum in the very large rice fields in front, so obviously water is not abundant all year, but the big pond next door seems to stay pretty full. There is also nam pa pa.

I've been asked for 1m baht for 2rai which is two thirds chanooted and the front of which, like the neighbouring lots, has historically been "added" to the property. Access a firm dirt track which clearly delineates the lot as a whole including the untitled part frm th rice fields opposite.

I believe in this rather select rural area the price is quite attractive, but am aware there is certainly cheaper land a bit further out.

My gf says it's an insider price and they would ask 1.2 for it normally.

I have in mind to improve the land, maybe make a big pond etc, start off a couple of bigger trees, and build a tasteful chalet size place maybe 50 sqm which could be enlarged later into a full house if required.

I am not poor but not super wealthy and would like to sell half or so of the land for a profit after some improvement, to help pay for the first piece.

What do readers think? Can I sell for as high as say 750k per rai for a ready to go lot up there? Or build a small house which I could stay in occasionally but have for sale to a nice future neighbour?

Thanks....

Edited June 2, 2012 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

I am now up in Chiang Rai and visited the land tonight.

I learn that the non chanoot part of the land includes the track in front, which, while it is very pretty lined with olive trees, cannot be considered part of the lot as three people use it to access the pineapple fields on the hill just starting there.

It needs to be either private with a mutual agreement between all those who will effectively share ownership, or, to my mind maybe a better option, donated to the OrBaTor as a fully public way (the OrBaTor may then have to look after the surface and pick up rubbish direct from resident's houses in future.....not sure about that).

In any case the actual chanoot deed says 1.1.64 , a lot less than 2 rai.

So, I had thought 500k per rai sounded OK for this area, but it may now be, if there is no extra land added free on the edges, a worst case scenario that the 1.1.64 at one million baht comes out at 709,000 per rai.

HOWEVER, my gIrlfriend's brother in law, who has no axe to grind, tells us that 12 rai sold for 9 million not far away and another smaller lot at 1.1m per rai. He says the price is averaging about 800,000 for the area, and even untitled pineapple fields have gone up to 300,000. He says it is just one of those popular spots, is tesabahn, and less than 10km from the airport.

So, not to doubt him, but it's not all that far off the price the same distance from

Chiangmai. Just interested in any input about prices or anything else relevant.......even if it's about prices elsewhere in the environs of Chiang Rai to compare.

Thanks a lot......

Edited June 3, 2012 by cheeryble

[TommoPhysicist]

I think if you are daft enough to buy this land, don't put it in the name of your gf.

So many scams involving 'family land' and bogus sales to get money from a foolish foreigner.

From your second post I can see the family are WILDLY inflating the land prices in that area (aka cheating you)

Don't believe for one second that the family and the gf didn't know the EXACT size of that plot of land.

But OK, let's consider this is a totally legit deal, what happens IF (or rather when) you break up with the gf.

The land is in her name and you are surrounded by her extended family who now all hate you .......

How long are you going to last?

How much money could you ever recover?

You can rent a nice house for YOU to live in for 25 years in CM with no risk exposure at all, on the money you are thinking of giving to your gf.

If you must buy land you can't own, how about Mae Tang, 250k per rai chanoted, and only 50km from CM, no relatives around.

BUT STILL DON"T PUT ANYTHING IN A GFs NAME.

Edited June 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[maprao]

I think if you are daft enough to buy this land, don't put it in the name of your gf.

So many scams involving 'family land' and bogus sales to get money from a foolish foreigner.

From your second post I can see the family are WILDLY inflating the land prices in that area (aka cheating you)

Don't believe for one second that the family and the gf didn't know the EXACT size of that plot of land.

But OK, let's consider this is a totally legit deal, what happens IF (or rather when) you break up with the gf.

The land is in her name and you are surrounded by her extended family who now all hate you .......

How long are you going to last?

How much money could you ever recover?

You can rent a nice house for YOU to live in for 25 years in CM with no risk exposure at all, on the money you are thinking of giving to your gf.

If you must buy land you can't own, how about Mae Tang, 250k per rai chanoted, and only 50km from CM, no relatives around.

BUT STILL DON"T PUT ANYTHING IN A GFs NAME.

1,000,000 / 25 = 40,000 PER YEAR

40,000 / 12 = 3,333

Can you rent a house for 3,333 pm Baht in Chang Mai?

I see where you are going just the figures did not add up.

On another point, my I am glad I bought the gf's land now the wife's land over a decade ago. The rice land only cost 5,000 per rai. We are still together and she is much richer than she was a decade ago! I am glad I played this game when the prices really did not matter. I cringe at some of the prices I see being asked for now!

Way too expensive!

Edited June 3, 2012 by maprao

[TommoPhysicist]

1,000,000 / 25 = 40,000 PER YEAR

40,000 / 12 = 3,333

Can you rent a house for 3,333 Baht in Chang Mai?

I see where you are going just the figures did not add up.

This guy will be spending at least another 1Mbht on building a house.

Try the calculation again using a total capital investment of 2Mbht, assume the money invested in Australian term account giving 5% interest after tax. (Even Bangkok Bank will give you 3% interest)

3 bed houses in SanSai (10k from center) currently rent at around 5k/month.

3 floor unfurnished Shop House within the moat about 8k/month

There is a little bit of risk difference in a purchase price of 800k per rai Vs 5k per rai. Don't you think?

Edited June 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[brianmarinus]

Ever heard about this...

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/usufruct.html

[sceadugenga]

I know many people who have bought land here in a wife or girlfriend's name without problems.

While I've certainly heard of cases where it has gone sour I think they are definitely in a minority.

The buy vs rent argument is an old one but personally I think there's nothing like having your own turf.

It gives your partner security and strengthens your relationship by showing trust in her.

You don't need to pay that price, bargain hard, then shop around.

[klikster]

A large block of land sold at the end of 2011, just inside the city limits of CR town, full chanode, priced pretty much the same or a bit cheaper than the land you have been offered.

[meatboy]

how far away is the nearest knocking shop?

[cheeryble]

Thankyou for your thoughts....

As i say i am not superwealthy, but I have to be fair and think that my girlfriend of five years, who has a proper job and very respectable, should have somewhere for after I croak, probably many years before her. The grandma's house she lives in near CM would not be suitable in future, she'd better sell that when she inherits.

This, surrounded by family, would be the ideal spot.

More.....

The land level needs raising before any building. The local fill is din dam better than din dang.....but it still costs 400 per 3cu+.

The neighbour has got his fill by digging out two big ponds, but my guess is I will still have to add 120k per rai if i only want to make a modest area into pond.

I guess what I have to do is learn as much today as possible about the local prices.

Once again any information about prices paid anywhere around CR welcome....this is a bit of a rush job I think.

Thanks!

[dindong]

Friends of ours own a 5 rai pineapple farm without chanot not far from the location you mentioned.

It's further back without electricity and was bought less than a year ago for 250,000 baht a rai.

Considering the need to fill your land, I would think that the full market value should not be more than 500,000 a rai and considering you are a family member and the lack of chanot, you shouldn't be paying anymore than 400,000 baht a rai.

If you use personal money brought into Thailand to buy this property, your investment will be safeguarded.

[TommoPhysicist]

Friends of ours own a 5 rai pineapple farm without chanot not far from the location you mentioned.

It's further back without electricity and was bought less than a year ago for 250,000 baht a rai.

Considering the need to fill your land, I would think that the full market value should not be more than 500,000 a rai and considering you are a family member and the lack of chanot, you shouldn't be paying anymore than 400,000 baht a rai.

If you use personal money brought into Thailand to buy this property, your investment will be safeguarded.

I agree with you on the land price DD.

This is just another guy being cheated (by someone).

But these guys never listen to advice, They always say "my gf would never do that"

@OP

Everyone that has talked prices, has estimated you are being asked for 2x to 4x the normal price for land in this area.

What part of this didn't you understand?

Edited June 4, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[simple1]

Ever heard about this...

http://www.thailand-...m/usufruct.html

Yes, but should you be married and then divorce it's only remains in situ with the concurance of the wife

[meatboy]

surrounded by all the family makes it the ideal spot for who?

[villagefarang]

You say you are not super wealthy which I assume means you can’t afford to throw money away. My advice would be to calculate what you can afford to spend and then go about looking for a parcel of land that costs about half that much. Things always end up costing more than you expect so budget accordingly.

As for the value of a piece of land, it is what someone is willing to pay for it. If no one but you will pay that price then it is probably not worth that much. The quoted price on a piece of land where I live is based on what the seller needs to pay off his debts and often has little basis in reality.

Good luck but as Scea said “bargain hard, then shop around”.

[cheeryble]

I think if you are daft enough to buy this land, don't put it in the name of your gf.

So many scams involving 'family land' and bogus sales to get money from a foolish foreigner.

From your second post I can see the family are WILDLY inflating the land prices in that area (aka cheating you)

Don't believe for one second that the family and the gf didn't know the EXACT size of that plot of land.

But OK, let's consider this is a totally legit deal, what happens IF (or rather when) you break up with the gf.

The land is in her name and you are surrounded by her extended family who now all hate you .......

How long are you going to last?

How much money could you ever recover?

You can rent a nice house for YOU to live in for 25 years in CM with no risk exposure at all, on the money you are thinking of giving to your gf.

If you must buy land you can't own, how about Mae Tang, 250k per rai chanoted, and only 50km from CM, no relatives around.

BUT STILL DON"T PUT ANYTHING IN A GFs NAME.

Tommo

You have decided opinions not only about girlfriends always being ripoffs but about this particular land being a ripoff too.

Do you have any specific data about recent transactions in the Ban Du area to base this on?

[TommoPhysicist]

Tommo

You have decided opinions not only about girlfriends always being ripoffs but about this particular land being a ripoff too.

Do you have any specific data about recent transactions in the Ban Du area to base this on?

I don't have any views on gfs ripping people off in general.

I do have a view on this particular transaction, which I have already stated.

[cheeryble]

I know many people who have bought land here in a wife or girlfriend's name without problems.

While I've certainly heard of cases where it has gone sour I think they are definitely in a minority.

The buy vs rent argument is an old one but personally I think there's nothing like having your own turf.

It gives your partner security and strengthens your relationship by showing trust in her.

You don't need to pay that price, bargain hard, then shop around.

Yes sceadugenga

Even the little house I rent for a low 5000 will have added up to total half a million in a year or two wouldn't it have been nice to have owned especially at the baht rate then...

I should add I'm pretty capable at both the design and implementation of renovation projects. My two last houses in England which both involved major renovations not only gave me great homes for a while i got 120% mark up on the first and a whopping 220% on the second, all work done or overseen by me. So i think I can make the very most out of a place.

My girlfriend of course is half my age and has devoted herself to me despite having a very responsible job, so yes you're right.

If I build even a holiday chalet for now it may even become a proper home as I get older who knows. I certainly like visiting the area we go every few weeks. Then perhaps half of it can be hers for the future wouldn't that be a nice gesture.

I somehow like the open guilelessness of the people up there.

As for the price, I guess I can only hope to learn the right figure and I still hope for as many informed replies as possible...

[cheeryble]

Friends of ours own a 5 rai pineapple farm without chanot not far from the location you mentioned.

It's further back without electricity and was bought less than a year ago for 250,000 baht a rai.

Considering the need to fill your land, I would think that the full market value should not be more than 500,000 a rai and considering you are a family member and the lack of chanot, you shouldn't be paying anymore than 400,000 baht a rai.

If you use personal money brought into Thailand to buy this property, your investment will be safeguarded.

Dindong (and Klikster)

Thankyou for your very specific information.

Your 250k pineapple price agrees perfectly with the bro in law.

They bought an extra 2 pineapple rai two or three years ago for 200k per rai, but he says it is now about 300k.

Again I agree chanot land is generally about double good untitled land ....but 600k may not be totally unreasonable especially considering the "resortability" and prettiness of the area. My experience is where fill is concerned Thais will tend not to allow for it.

I have now been informed, not by the owners and I believe honestly, where the "luk", the markers, are. Even though they're in very heavy weed and can only be pointed towards it does indeed look as if there is some "bonus" land......though they were allowing for the track in front too and I don't consider that Kosher.

I have got back to CM where I have now scaled down the faxed chanot with an original to measure the sides on the plan.

My best guess is, only counting the lot itself and no track, it is 2500sqm or so. At a price of 1m baht this would work out at 640,000 per rai. It may be slightly bigger and thus cheaper, down to perhaps 600,000.

So actually given village Thai irrationality and them including the track which would be about 80m x 3m, the total they saw was indeed about 90% of two rai, and 90% is high precision in Thailand ha-ha!

Again thanks

Edited June 4, 2012 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Ever heard about this...

http://www.thailand-...m/usufruct.html

Yes, but should you be married and then divorce it's only remains in situ with the concurance of the wife

I will never have more than the village wedding, no registration. In the know Thais think the same it makes for big complications with both having to agree, and be there, to sign for business and other transactions.

So yes a usufruct may be OK for me.

[cheeryble]

You say you are not super wealthy which I assume means you cant afford to throw money away. My advice would be to calculate what you can afford to spend and then go about looking for a parcel of land that costs about half that much. Things always end up costing more than you expect so budget accordingly.

Agree except one thing....

The land is the smaller part of the spend so paying half for the land may only reduce the spend by say 15-20% or less......and generally you've got crap land.

Although this is not primarily a business deal, my best deals have been done when I paid more for what I really wanted. It turned out later that others really wanted it too.

I think the right property comes before the price.

The quoted price on a piece of land where I live is based on what the seller needs to pay off his debts and often has little basis in reality.

So true so true they make you feel like you,re responsible for their needs.....though in this case it is for a continuing education for the son.

Good luck but as Scea said bargain hard, then shop around.

EXCEPT I have to be cool here for better or worse this is family, the prefix Keeneow wouldn't be nice in a small community.

This is not one for beating them to death.

I will be happy if I pay the right price, and I'm here to learn what that is.

Edited June 4, 2012 by cheeryble

[meatboy]

quote then perhaps half of it can be hers for the future wouldnt that be a nice gesture,who's having the other half?.you seem to have i am in love virus dont let it take over your thinking,yes you are in paradise but it wont last for long once you build that 6bedroom house and find that you are only the lodger and the milking cow.i suggest you get married and do what we done move far away she can still visit the family get a dog for company and live happily ever after.[23aniversary coming up] all she wants is a new grass cutter.

[meatboy]

i wonder is the op familiar with the i am in love virus which is rampant in los,it first attacks the brain making you unable to think straight,then your vision gets impared,the feelings you get are like no other,your wealth suffers,then after a while it moves to the heart. there doesnt seem to be any known cure once it takes a grip on you,some isolate themselves and madness sets in,some are known to take drastic action we all experiance this virus at one time or another dreaming that you are surrounded by people you dont know then you wake up and realise that its not a dream.good luck op meet you in heaven one day.noi turn that bloody cd off.i am peed off listening to shirley bassey singing[ big spender] put[ i who have nothing on]

[cheeryble]

........... all she wants is a new grass cutter.

Nice. How often do you let her out?

[TommoPhysicist]

Your first post indicated this land was a gift for the future of your GF.

If it's a gift for your GF, why not just give her the 1M as a cash gift, to do as she likes, buy a car, buy gold, etc. She won't be buying that land with it.

Your recent post seems to indicate the land is for a house for you to live in.

If it's for your future, then you will be buying land using a 'nominee', illegal and with a two year prison risk attached.

5,000bht a month = 60k a year (not half a million in a year or two as you have stated)

You really should take the time to real some of the posts 'thequietman' has made, as it appears to be your intention to join him.

Edited June 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[meatboy]

........... all she wants is a new grass cutter.

Nice. How often do you let her out?

whenever she wants,she can have what she wants,she can do what she wants, she says the new grass cutter must be 25 or younger good looking possibly italian but skint so she cant leave me.thats what i call true love.

[cheeryble]

Your first post indicated this land was a gift for the future of your GF.

If it's a gift for your GF, why not just give her the 1M as a cash gift, to do as she likes, buy a car, buy gold, etc. She won't be buying that land with it.

You know my girlfriend?

I said it was a gift?

Half or more will be sold on i have no desire to be looking after 2 rai or maybe even one. My gf had already suggested I divide and sell some, hardly a moneygrabbing gesture which is what u seem very concerned indeed with. The rest i will have some security on for my life, but it will just remain hers when I die.

Or should I feel proud of myself on my deathbed that I kept every last penny in my own name obsessed with myself til the last minute and she just had to live in hope I would leave it to her and she'd be safe in the house she will help put together and look after?

Your recent post seems to indicate the land is for a house for you to live in.

If it's for your future, then you will be buying land using a 'nominee', illegal and with a two year prison risk attached.

I live in CM. The CR land may, just may, become my main home in my ageing years.

How many farang do time in prison for land matters? So why mention it? FYI if one provides the funds for a purchase it has even been known to shop oneself and get the purchase annulled with the funds going back to the provider..

5,000bht a month = 60k a year (not half a million in a year or two as you have stated)

"Even the little house I rent for a low 5000 will have added up to total half a million in a year or two"

Nearly 8 x 60,000 already.

Edited June 5, 2012 by cheeryble

[villagefarang]

Sounds to me like you have already made up your mind as to what you are going to do and are wasting the time of posters who took the bait. You should know there is no Kelley Bluebook equivalent for land prices in Thailand. All measurements of value are subjective until money changes hands.

You are obviously going to buy this land but no one can tell you if you made a good purchase or not. You won’t know the true value of the land until you try to sell it, if you ever do. You asked what readers think and we told you but you seem to have a rebuttal for everyone. Just get on with it and do whatever you are going to do.

Edited June 5, 2012 by villagefarang

[cheeryble]

Sounds to me like you have already made up your mind as to what you are going to do and are wasting the time of posters who took the bait. You should know there is no Kelley Bluebook equivalent for land prices in Thailand. All measurements of value are subjective until money changes hands.

You are obviously going to buy this land but no one can tell you if you made a good purchase or not. You won’t know the true value of the land until you try to sell it, if you ever do. You asked what readers think and we told you but you seem to have a rebuttal for everyone. Just get on with it and do whatever you are going to do.

Thankyou for your thoughts VF.

Naturally I've been running through in my mind what I would do if I buy, but this is far from a done deal.

I'm hearing negative noises here about the asking price. If these are correct, even if I bought enough land for a small place, why would I speculate with more than I need and have to strain to get money back for the land I don't need?

In other words I can offer to buy between the half or threequarter rai if they find a buyer for the rest.

Or I can say I'll buy it all if I can find someone to share it with.

Or I can request a lower price or no go.

Just hoping to hear real prices that have happened in the real world either in or near Ban Du or elsewhere around CR for comparison.

[klikster]

Thankyou for your thoughts....

.. I have to be fair and think that my girlfriend of five years, who has a proper job and very respectable, should have somewhere for after I croak, probably many years before her.

Cheeryble, I respect you for thinking that way. Too many expats claim to have a family, nut act as if they are hiring help.

As for the rent vs buy, yes, you may be able to rent cheaper -- for awhile -- but can you really get the kind of house you want?