Thai Democracy Tested As Judges Battle Thaksin

[thaicbr]

The root problem is that constitution can apparently be changed with a simple majority in parlaiment. This is not typical for other democracies. As far as I belive in most countries a 2/3 majority is needed to change or amend the constitution, if not a general refferendum by the people.

The threshold to affect constitutional change here needs to be much much higher. Any constitution that doesn't call for both legislative and popular vote supermajorities is flawed IMO.

http://usgovinfo.abo.../constamend.htm

And don't the military just love it that way. As I have said it many times the reason the laws are written the way they are in Thailand is to suit the main power brokers in the country, not to deliver the best result for the country.

On this level, the coup makers are no better than any others that want to mess with the constitution.

There appears to be a system whereby people can submit complaints about unconstitutional threats, which would appear to be that they complaints go to the Attorney General first, in this situation, it appears that the CC has simply decided to hear the complaints without it going through this channel first.

How smart all the other countries in the world must have been to set up systems that have in some cases lasted hundreds of years with minor tweaks here and there, whereas, we have Thailand that simply lurches from one coup and constitutional crisis to another. But then where would be the fun in writing a water tight constitution if it piddled on your sandpit.

while I agree with your point, I believe that westerners have rose colored glasses regarding their own constitutions. Most European democracies are pretty young or have had multiple lives. The American constitution has gone through many changes and is likely to face many more. And while the USA hasn't had many military coups, there was that little incident called the civil war.

The point that I want to make here is that we should be a bit careful in criticizing the Thai people about the various weaknesses of their constitution without recognizing that our own institutions are not necessarily models of stability. In fact, it is the case for the American Constitution that the built in flexibility has been the major contributor to its longevity. But that is a longevity that exists without a history of military coups.

I suspect that the 97 constitution as well as the 07 constitution provide ample flexibility to be updated and adapted as Thai society changes without tearing apart the society. The continuing issues in Thailand regarding democracy IMO relate to the different political powers taking short-cuts to their desired outcomes rather than working through the democratic institutions in place.

In that regard, I view extreme judicial activism as we see happening now in over the last several years to be detrimental to the democratic institutions and that more judicial restraint is called for.

I actually partly agree with what you saying. BUT and it is a big but there is past experience of the ruling party pushing (steam rollering) their own agenda at any cost. I think we also can all agree that this bill/bills are to bring Thaksin home and free.

I really do not understand why if they dont like the 2007 constitution they just go back to the 1997 one for now and give themselves and every one else time to discuss it like adults.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[OzMick]

From the full article:

"The Constitutional Court ordered Parliament last week to stop considering an amendment that would establish a 99-member body to rewrite the constitution drafted by an army-appointed panel after the coup. The Pheu Thai party won a majority in last July's elections after campaigning on changing the document to make it harder to disband political parties. It also sought to curtail the power of appointed judges, soldiers and bureaucrats. "

Keep in mind that the constitution was written to satisfy the military that staged the last coup, not the majority of the Thai people. Also, that in attempting to change this constitution, the PTP is living up to one of its campaign promises.

Also:

"A judicial challenge to the legislators' efforts could lead to the disbanding of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's party, the third time courts have disqualified elected allies of her brother Thaksin Shinawatra since he was ousted by the military six years ago."

and:

"The court accepted petitions arguing that the process violated Article 68 of the constitution, which restricts attempts "to overthrow the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State." The clause allows judges to disband political parties that contravene the stipulation."

Article 68 appears to be wide open to interpretation, allowing a politicized judiciary to terminate any elected government it wishes. In view of this, I think the constitution should be rewritten.

Didn't a huge majority, a landslide in fact, of "the people" accept the 2007 constitution?

Sent from my shoe phone

Again from Wikipedia, but from what I recall it is correct:

"The draft was subject to a public referendum, but under the terms of the 2006 Constitution, the CNS would be allowed to promulgate any constitution of their choosing if the draft failed the referendum. The draft was criticized by the Thai Rak Thai party and supported by the Democrat party. Criticism of the draft was banned. The CNS attempted to link loyalty to the King with support for the draft, and ran a campaign with the slogan "Love the King. Care about the King. Vote in a referendum. Accept the 2007 draft charter."^[53][54] The draft was approved by 59.3% of the voters on 19 August 2007, with 55.6% of qualified voters voting."

It wasn't exactly a "free and fair election", it was more of a "vote for this or we'll choose your constitution for you. Also, don't criticize this constitution or you'll be arrested."

TRT criticized the constitution draft - on what grounds? They didn't like the amnesty clause, they certainly like the anti-corruption clauses for obvious bloody reasons, and the only other AFAIK was dropping the requirement for MPs to have a degree.

What other clauses were added that inhibited the freedom of Thais?

[tlansford]

- deleted -

The threshold to affect constitutional change here needs to be much much higher. Any constitution that doesn't call for both legislative and popular vote supermajorities is flawed IMO.

http://usgovinfo.abo.../constamend.htm

And don't the military just love it that way. As I have said it many times the reason the laws are written the way they are in Thailand is to suit the main power brokers in the country, not to deliver the best result for the country.

On this level, the coup makers are no better than any others that want to mess with the constitution.

There appears to be a system whereby people can submit complaints about unconstitutional threats, which would appear to be that they complaints go to the Attorney General first, in this situation, it appears that the CC has simply decided to hear the complaints without it going through this channel first.

How smart all the other countries in the world must have been to set up systems that have in some cases lasted hundreds of years with minor tweaks here and there, whereas, we have Thailand that simply lurches from one coup and constitutional crisis to another. But then where would be the fun in writing a water tight constitution if it piddled on your sandpit.

while I agree with your point, I believe that westerners have rose colored glasses regarding their own constitutions. Most European democracies are pretty young or have had multiple lives. The American constitution has gone through many changes and is likely to face many more. And while the USA hasn't had many military coups, there was that little incident called the civil war.

The point that I want to make here is that we should be a bit careful in criticizing the Thai people about the various weaknesses of their constitution without recognizing that our own institutions are not necessarily models of stability. In fact, it is the case for the American Constitution that the built in flexibility has been the major contributor to its longevity. But that is a longevity that exists without a history of military coups.

I suspect that the 97 constitution as well as the 07 constitution provide ample flexibility to be updated and adapted as Thai society changes without tearing apart the society. The continuing issues in Thailand regarding democracy IMO relate to the different political powers taking short-cuts to their desired outcomes rather than working through the democratic institutions in place.

In that regard, I view extreme judicial activism as we see happening now in over the last several years to be detrimental to the democratic institutions and that more judicial restraint is called for.

I actually partly agree with what you saying. BUT and it is a big but there is past experience of the ruling party pushing (steam rollering) their own agenda at any cost. I think we also can all agree that this bill/bills are to bring Thaksin home and free.

I really do not understand why if they dont like the 2007 constitution they just go back to the 1997 one for now and give themselves and every one else time to discuss it like adults.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Well, your last point is just not an option. To work within the legal framework means to work within the 2007 constitution and the mechanisms that it contains, including the process to amend it. Once the CDA is formed, then they, theoretically, would have the choice to re-adopt the 1997 constitution wholesale. But that doesn't seem likely.

But the point of the courts thrusting themselves into the fray before the CDA exists is telling, IMO. The judiciary is demonstrably not independent / impartial (note, the same can be said of the US Supreme Court, so this is not unique to Thailand), and to involve themselves at this point must have a motivation behind it.

[OzMick]

Well, your last point is just not an option. To work within the legal framework means to work within the 2007 constitution and the mechanisms that it contains, including the process to amend it. Once the CDA is formed, then they, theoretically, would have the choice to re-adopt the 1997 constitution wholesale. But that doesn't seem likely.

But the point of the courts thrusting themselves into the fray before the CDA exists is telling, IMO. The judiciary is demonstrably not independent / impartial (note, the same can be said of the US Supreme Court, so this is not unique to Thailand), and to involve themselves at this point must have a motivation behind it.

Why MUST they have a motivation behind it? Could they not be responding to the concerns of Thai citizens expressed to them as they are allowed under the constitution?

When I hear A is this, so B must be that, I immediately start to think conspiracy theory.

Is it not possible that PTP, knowing they are facing disbandment for a number of reasons relating to their behaviour in the last election, have tried to institute a constitutional crisis, and inflame their supporters ready for militant action should that happen?

[yoshiwara]

As we have clearly seen, Thaksin's primary objective has not been about having a government in power, it has been about capturing state power. To do this he has to control those institutions outside of his immediate reach. In 2006 and 2010 he made direct attempts to seize the appointment process of the army leadership. Failed both times. Right now he wants to break the independence of the legal institutions. If changing the constitution is what it takes to get his money back and his 'innocence' back, then game on. You might be wondering why he doesn't wait for a VIP event. The trouble is twofold. First he is an overreacher. Secondly, he has to maintain momentum and recent indications of the red wagon wheels getting wobbly plus the increasing attraction of Yingluck continuing the show while he stays outside is unbearable. This time the establishment is wiser to his ways. Lie then advance. Lie then advance. The forum Thaksin apologists love so much to witter away about constitutional niceties (its not about Thaksin) but they know where this story is headed. Yes they do. Their job as always has been to throw up a smokescreen. With luck the density of the smoke will obscure the Jatuporns organising in the background.

Edited June 8, 2012 by yoshiwara

[thaicbr]

Does it actually say in the 2007 constitution that a seperate committee (CDA) can be the only thing to change the constitution if yes then does the 2007 constitution have the absolute mechanism to do it?

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[rubl]

Thailand Live Friday 8th of June #39 13:22

"Kokaew threatens to cut court budget

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pheu Thai MP Kokaew Pikulthong on Friday urged the Constitution Court to cancel its injunction on the legislative vote for charter change in exchange for avoiding impeachment and budget cut.

"The red shirts will stop the impeachment drive against the judges if the court order on legislative voting is dropped," he said.

Kokaew also hinted that the House committee vetting the 2013 Budget Bill might cut the high court's non-esstential expenditures, such as the spendings on security services for the court buildings and personnel."

[rubl]

In another topic Pheu Thai party list MP and UDD leader Dr. Weng called for the resignation of seven Constitution Court judges for issuing an injunction for the legislative vote on charter change."

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5371663

[OzMick]

In another topic Pheu Thai party list MP and UDD leader Dr. Weng called for the resignation of seven Constitution Court judges for issuing an injunction for the legislative vote on charter change."

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5371663

That the same court may soon rule to disband PTP for its blatant breaches of electoral law in the last election is purely coincidental.

[gemini81]

Hard to believe this snake thaksin once said he'll stay out of politics.

[thaicbr]

Thailand Live Friday 8th of June #39 13:22

"Kokaew threatens to cut court budget

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pheu Thai MP Kokaew Pikulthong on Friday urged the Constitution Court to cancel its injunction on the legislative vote for charter change in exchange for avoiding impeachment and budget cut.

"The red shirts will stop the impeachment drive against the judges if the court order on legislative voting is dropped," he said.

Kokaew also hinted that the House committee vetting the 2013 Budget Bill might cut the high court's non-esstential expenditures, such as the spendings on security services for the court buildings and personnel."

WOW.

Let's bargain and if you don't we will cut your security and it's a dangerous place.

The more I hear from this political party Phua Thai the more it sounds like

Sinn Fien and their armed group the IRA (admittedly the current Red's are not armed. Yet) but that's what they used the threat of aggression.

PS: I really hope that the court DOES NOT dissolve Phua Thai. Let them keep going lets SEE HOW desperate they get trying to bring thaksin back.

He (thaksin) could save everyone a lot of trouble and strife (and possibly lives if this gets uglier) if he simply returned to Thailand. There is nothing stopping him other than himself.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited June 8, 2012 by thaicbr

[nurofiend]

Hard to believe this snake thaksin once said he'll stay out of politics.

bit of an oxymoron there, no?

[nurofiend]

Thailand Live Friday 8th of June #39 13:22

"Kokaew threatens to cut court budget

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pheu Thai MP Kokaew Pikulthong on Friday urged the Constitution Court to cancel its injunction on the legislative vote for charter change in exchange for avoiding impeachment and budget cut.

"The red shirts will stop the impeachment drive against the judges if the court order on legislative voting is dropped," he said.

Kokaew also hinted that the House committee vetting the 2013 Budget Bill might cut the high court's non-esstential expenditures, such as the spendings on security services for the court buildings and personnel."

WOW.

Let's bargain and if you don't we will cut your security and it's a dangerous place.

The more I hear from this political party Phua Thai the more it sounds like

Sinn Fien and their armed group the IRA (admittedly the current Red's are not armed. Yet) but that's what they used the threat of aggression.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

The more I hear from this political party Phua Thai the more it sounds like

Sinn Fien

How?

[OzMick]

Hard to believe this snake thaksin once said he'll stay out of politics.

bit of an oxymoron there, no?

merely a mild anthropomorphism.

[maidu]

Hard to believe this snake thaksin once said he'll stay out of politics.

bit of an oxymoron there, no?

merely a mild anthropomorphism.

I happen to like snakes, and I believe snakes would take offense at being compared to Thaksin.

The only similarities a snake has to Thaksin, is that they both lie and they both slither, though one does it physically, and the other does it with his tongue.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed, this topic is not about Sinn Fein, back on topic: Thai Democracy Tested as Judges Battle Thaksin

[gand]

The PTP wants to eliminate the Constitution Court and the Constitution Court wants to eliminate the PTP?

[maidu]

The PTP wants to eliminate the Constitution Court and the Constitution Court wants to eliminate the PTP?

Meanwhile, regular Thai people are plodding along, trying to make ends meet. They don't get any help from the government - which is too busy with internecine squabbling.

[StefanBBK]

The PTP wants to eliminate the Constitution Court and the Constitution Court wants to eliminate the PTP?

Meanwhile, regular Thai people are plodding along, trying to make ends meet. They don't get any help from the government - which is too busy with internecine squabbling.

Most people don't care about politics as much as the price of rice and gasoline!

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Reasonableman]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-05/thai-democracy-tested-as-judges-battle-thaksin-southeast-asia.html

The political maneuverings “are like a poker game where everybody has a gun in their pocket,” Kaewsan said. "Thai society is the loser.”