Expats In Thailand: Is Your Goal Here To "Integrate" Into Thai Society?

[JurgenG]

Of course there is more to the story but being Asians is part of it. Both Indians and Chinese people migrated here WELL BEFORE modern Thai immigration laws. So these people had families so they are visible and integrated into Thailand. However, I do think it is clear Chinese Thais are better integrated than Indian Thais. Why is that? How much is different culture and how much is different RACIAL appearance? Indian Thais are a MUCH SMALLER community.

Chinese immigration: Starting 400 years ago, EIGHT MILLION in Thailand

Indian immigration: Starting 150 years ago, 65,000 in Thailand

Will European Thais be SEMI-integrated into Thailand 150 years from now like Indian Thais? I bet ... NO.

This is deeply xenophobic country and we are just too different. Multiculturalism is NOT the ideal here. It's not the UK, France, Canada, or the USA and it doesn't have to be. It is up to Thailand and nothing to do with Europeans here.

The other thing with the CHINESE influence in Thailand is that TAI people ORIGINALLY came from China. But I am talking here about more recent (like 400 years) migration of Chinese people to Siam. So really how the Chinese have integrated is more evidence of how Europeans CAN'T integrate more than how we can!

Chinese have similar problems when they arrive., They are considered uneducated, rude, loud and too money minded. But they make an effort to integrate and without one or two generation they are more Thai than Chinese.

It's the same for second generation European, very often luk kreung, who make the effort to integrate the Thai society, having Thai as first language and respecting the rules of Thai society. In America, you have to respect the american flag and american basic values (pledge of allegiance). Here it's the same

But you're the one who don't want integrate the Thai society and you call them xenophobics ?

Like I said the early Chinese here who literally SEEDED the EIGHT MILLION arrived at a time with a very different IMMIGRATION law system. Only a tiny number of Europeans become Thai citizens, that is clearly BY DESIGN. Thai society does NOT want EIGHT MILLION white Thai citizens, not now, not ever. Deal with it.

There is a huge body of literature about the xenophobic nature of Thai society. Cheap shot trying to make it personal, that won't wash.

Don't accuse me to make it personal, you're the one who started this thread and answered it (post #23) by "no".

So you don't want to integrate the Thai society but still you complain that the Thai society is xenophobic. Why do you want the Thais to accept someone who clearly doesn't want to make the effort to be part of their society ? Because here is the real point, the Chinese integrated the Thai society by "melting" into it. There is very little "pure" chinese, only Thai of Chinese ancestors, and inter marriage with Thais is the norm from the very beginning. It's only in racist forums that you find constant reference of the foreign origin of such or such person. You can't find that in the Thai press. And they have totally embraced the Thai culture. You, you want to force your culture on Thailand but you haven't realized colonialism is over, that's probably the source of your problems.

And to answer an other of your point, people have now realized that multiculturalism doesn't work. Even the Dutch who were leader in cultural and religious tolerance have now realized that it creates more problem than it solves and now ask new immigrant to respect Dutch traditional values (which ironically are values of cultural and religious tolerance )

Edited July 16, 2012 by JurgenG

[Jingthing]

...

So you don't want to integrate the Thai society but still you complain that the Thai society is xenophobic. Why do you want the Thais to accept someone who clearly doesn't want to make the effort to be part of their society ?

...

There you go again. Edited July 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[JurgenG]

...

So you don't want to integrate the Thai society but still you complain that the Thai society is xenophobic. Why do you want the Thais to accept someone who clearly doesn't want to make the effort to be part of their society ?

...

There you go again.

Just to make it clear, it's nothing "personal", it's just you are the self declared spokesperson of the "no to integration" community. When I use "you", I mean you and everybody who think that Thai are racists and xenophobic and hate foreigners and at the same time are not willing to make the effort to fit in the country they chose to move in.

Edited July 16, 2012 by JurgenG

[Jingthing]

...

So you don't want to integrate the Thai society but still you complain that the Thai society is xenophobic. Why do you want the Thais to accept someone who clearly doesn't want to make the effort to be part of their society ?

...

There you go again.

Just to make it clear, it's nothing "personal", it's just you are the self declared spokesperson of the "no to integration" community. When I use "you", I mean you and everybody who think that Thai are racists and xenophobic and hate foreigners and at the same time are not willing to make the effort to fit in the country they chose to move in.

Sounds pretty personal to me. I am no spokesman. You're just trying to troll bait and I ain't playing. Move along now. Edited July 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[cdnmatt]

No, I don't want to fully integrate. Seriously, who would? Well, other than the "I'm Thai on the inside" farangs of course.

There's various facets of Thai society / culture I love though. So I just like to pick out those parts I like, adapt to those, and leave the rest up to my Western morals / judgement. But I'm not about to "mai bpen rai" every aspect of my life, or act like a 6 year old throwing a tantrum because I might have "lost face", or not care about bettering myself, or think morlam is the best thing ever.

I think I've integrated just fine though. Typical middle class sub-burb in Issan, get on good with all the neighbors (ok, most of them), I goto the grocery store maybe once a month for the imported stuff, and otherwise it's the street market everyday, and so on. I need to brush up on my Thai though, definitely. My Thai is horrible, but I know enough to get around, and do whatever I need. It seems like once I got to that point, I just didn't bother learning anymore. So I can (barely) get around, and get anything I want done, but can hardly hold a conversation in Thai yet. Will make sure that changes soon.

Edited July 16, 2012 by cdnmatt

[flying]

No, I don't want to fully integrate.

I think I've integrated just fine though. Typical middle class sub-burb in Issan, get on good with all the neighbors .....

My Thai is horrible, but I know enough to get around, and do whatever I need......

but can hardly hold a conversation in Thai yet. Will make sure that changes soon.

I snipped bits just to say in my mind you are integrating or at least trying to integrate/function in Thailand.

nice of you to point out "not-fully"

The fact that your also honest about your ability to communicate yet say you will make the effort to improve

again says integrate to me.

I never thought of this thread as an extremist would but I know many do.

Of course to integrate with your current choice of location/life is to me a good thing.

Otherwise how do we function...as an adult?

IMHO this thread said Integrate...not become fully assimilated

integrate to me means....Combine (parts) with another so that they become a whole.

In my mind your doing just that & good on you for it.

In other posts it almost seems like folks are saying to attempt to live as a functioning adult

in the place WE have chosen to live is somehow a bad thing & is giving up your past or assuming citizenship is possible/required

just to justify making any effort at all.

I do not see it that way at all.

I intend to continue to integrate in the spirit of growth & being able to have a fuller life in the place we have chosen to live.

Edited July 16, 2012 by flying

[maxme]

There is adifference between assimilating and integrating. However, on order to integrate the transition would be a lot easier if the rules were somewhat fair to the foreigners which they aren't. Each and everyone must find their own way as these draconian rules were meant to keep the foreigners at bay.

I dont't have much love for the Thai elite or politicians but that's not the reason I'm here for either. I just do what I have to do to stay happy with my family and friends here. If that's part of integration then sure, otherwise is not much to contemplate since I can't be a citizen.

Edited July 18, 2012 by maxme

[Naam]

So you don't want to integrate the Thai society but still you complain that the Thai society is xenophobic. Why do you want the Thais to accept someone who clearly doesn't want to make the effort to be part of their society ?

There you go again.

Just to make it clear, it's nothing "personal", it's just you are the self declared spokesperson of the "no to integration" community. When I use "you", I mean you and everybody who think that Thai are racists and xenophobic and hate foreigners and at the same time are not willing to make the effort to fit in the country they chose to move in.

there are people (like me) who think the accusations that Thais are xenophobic and racists are utmost ridiculous. my wife and me have spend umpteen times our holidays in Thailand and live permanently in Thailand since nearly eight years and... we like living here!

we have however not the slightest intention to "integrate" or "being part of Thai society" but that does not mean we do not "fit" in the country.

[ajarnpot]

I always thought the idea of living here was to integrate Thailand into my society? I am still working on it, the admin woman is a bity of a pain but she will come around

[StreetCowboy]

I always thought the idea of living here was to integrate Thailand into my society? I am still working on it, the admin woman is a bity of a pain but she will come around

One would scarcely be British if one went around integrating wherever one went.

Lord Mountbatten never saw fit to don a dhoti, and Stanley would scarcely have recognised Dr Livingstone had he been clad in a grass skirt with a bone through his nose

SC

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I am part of Thai society, whether I (or Thai society for that matter) likes it or not.

The more I integrate, the smoother it gets for everyone.

So yes, I am more and more Thai on the inside.

[David006]

Goals?.....Thai society? ........gave up goals when I burned my DayTimer.....retired .....take care me and families, eat, drink and pass out ........should be 'nough or any man or woman...

[expat4life]

Poll is kinda silly ! No matter what we do or don't do to integrate , we will always be viewed as Farang

[pxlgirl]

Whenever someone decides to stay in a different country than the one they were born in, they should integrate into society within their possibilities and abilities. It's always a compromise between your own identity and what society is expecting from you, no matter where you stay. But despite of culture, society and norms, people are people and everyone is doing what they can to be able to live a happy life.

[JurgenG]

Poll is kinda silly ! No matter what we do or don't do to integrate , we will always be viewed as Farang

True and not true at the same time

For the stranger you meet in the street, your fair skin is the only thing he sees.

But for people who know you, your family, your neighbours, your colleagues, even for the people you just have short contact with, it makes a difference.

Edited July 19, 2012 by JurgenG

[SuneeTH]

Poll is kinda silly ! No matter what we do or don't do to integrate , we will always be viewed as Farang

Correct, Mr. Kee Nok.

[Jingthing]

So yes, I am more and more Thai on the inside.

How convenient! Winnie the Khwai rhymes with Thai-ier Than Thai!

Just curious, do you feel morally superior to the majority of us who are NOT interested in integrating and most definitely NOT feeling Thai on the inside?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[expat4life]

Poll is kinda silly ! No matter what we do or don't do to integrate , we will always be viewed as Farang

True and not true at the same time

For the stranger you meet in the street, your fair skin is the only thing he sees.

But for people who know you, your family, your neighbours, your colleagues, even for the people you just have short contact with, it makes a difference.

As expats we have a duty to adjust our actions when living as a guest in another country. So I have no argument about being mindful of traditions and cultural differences, I am or at least try to be ( only human after all ). It makes my life and the lives of my Thai family considerably easier. Being one of very few expats living in this area , living any other way would be asking for trouble.

That how ever doesn't change the facts we are guests here and will always be viewed as farangs not matter how well liked or respected by our family, friends and community.

[Jingthing]

The guest word. It had to happen.

[flying]

So yes, I am more and more Thai on the inside.

How convenient! Winnie the Khwai rhymes with Thai-ier Than Thai!

Just curious, do you feel morally superior to the majority of us who are NOT interested in integrating and most definitely NOT feeling Thai on the inside?

Just curious.....Why do you start polls as if your interested in others opinions ?

Then proceed to shoot down any that give more than the no answer you wanted?

Edited July 19, 2012 by flying

[Jingthing]

When I start polls (which is less frequently these days as ideas for them are running dry) the motivation is usually genuine curiosity about how people will vote. I usually have a very good idea of which way people will vote but it's not that unusual to be surprised by the results. Of course no poll here is scientific in the slightest. For this poll, no, I am not at all surprised with the overwhelming nature of the results and I am happy that people who just don't care to integrate (for various reasons) can come out of the closet. They have nothing to be ashamed of. They have reasons which are as VALID as for people who think they are integrating. People who think they are integrating sadly have an annoying tendency to think they are morally superior to others. I think that kind of arrogance (I'm a better expat than you are! Neener neener neener!) should be actively resisted.

BTW, coming from the US, a country where LEGAL immigrants are encouraged by the millions to settle and are encouraged to become integrated, assimilated, the whole nine yards, when an immigrant who came over when they were an ADULT tells me they now think like an American, I can only laugh. They think like their mental stereotype of what an American thinks. If you didn't grow up from a young age immersed in the culture you can NEVER really think like an American. Thailand ... much more so. Thailand's ethics do NOT encourage the idea of being a nation of immigrations. It is more about purity of Thainess.

That said, yes I am interested to hear people's diverse opinions, whether I agree with them or not. I apologize that I did go a bit over the top in post 377.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[Tchooptip]

In a society where people are called "falang", good luck.

In France they used to call me Sir (monsieur) with hypocrisy, here they are calling me Farang... with a smile...I know my choice !

I then add in western society people are not called any name they are ignored