Canadian Sisters Died Of 'Food Poisoning' In Thailand Hotel

[kkup]

Hope their government gets involved and does an independent autopsy so everyone can find out the exact cause of death, then publicize it.

[Hellhound66]

Let's be realistic also a couple of young backpackers are not going to be able to afford fugu. That's 50-100 USD a dish. Agree on the independent autopsy and I don't believe any country can arbitrarily cremate a foreign national without family consent unless an epidemic is involved.

Thailand

Pufferfish, called pakpao in Thailand, are usually consumed by mistake. They are often cheaper than other fish, and because they contain inconsistent levels of toxins between fish and season, there is little awareness or monitoring of the danger. Consumers are regularly hospitalized and some even die from the poisoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia..../Tetraodontidae

I stand corrected. Pakpao or chicken meat fish often dyed to look like salmon by shifty fish dealers.

[fiskbulle]

Interesting that the last comment on Agoda for this hotel, mentions about bed bugs, it makes me think of a hotel in Chiang Mai where there were seven mysterious deaths?

[Felt 35]

Serious food poisoning?

I would like to be directed to a web page which describes the sort of food poisoning where symptoms include blue nails and bleeding gums.

We appear to be already heading for a cover-up. Let's hope the family can recover the bodies back to their home country and a competent autopsy, before the bodies are 'accidentally' cremated by the Thai authorities.

Disgraceful Thailand.

Thailands First aid = cover up

Treatment = keep International media away

Funeral = we did our best

[Boater]

It's hit the uk papers this morning

[Soutpeel]

I don't believe any country can arbitrarily cremate a foreign national without family consent unless an epidemic is involved.

Guess again...

[Bender]

A family lose their 2 daughter at the same time, in a tragic way, but we still have the thai apologist that gonna swear that thailand is safer in anyway than any occident country... Indeed for them Business is more important

Just a reminder to these fool: There are more murder in thailand alone than in all west and central european country ALL TOGETHER.

Yes you read it well: more homicide in thailand than in 25 european country all together!

The number of deaths from homicide in EU25 was 4 743 in 2005,

EU25 comprised Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands,

Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovak Republic,

and Slovenia.

source and you have around 500 million people in these 25 europeans country and less than 5000 homicide.

while in thailand alone the number of homicide is between 5400 to 6000...

But some cynical people will come and remind us business is business.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Bender

[chinook]

Even if the two ladies had tetrodotoxin poisoning from fugu, they would have got severe physical symptoms within 5-30 minutes (during the meal) and not made it back to the hotel unnoticed. Nothing about the 'food poisoning' statement makes sense.

it does

What are the symptoms of pufferfish poisoning?

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes and three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

Numbness of lips and tongue

Numbness of face and extremities

Sensations of lightness or floatingHeadache

Nausea and vomiting

Abdominal pain

Diarrhea

Slurred speech

Difficulty walking

Extensive muscle weakness

Convulsions

Respiratory distress

Mental impairment

Cardiac arrhythmia

Death can occur within four to six hours of poisoning, so it is essential to seek immediate medical attention.

Source: http://www.hopkinsme...ning_85,P01434/

Thailand

Pufferfish, called pakpao in Thailand, are usually consumed by mistake. They are often cheaper than other fish, and because they contain inconsistent levels of toxins between fish and season, there is little awareness or monitoring of the danger. Consumers are regularly hospitalized and some even die from the poisoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia..../Tetraodontidae

But does this posion cause cyanosis ?....dont think it does....something like cynanide does..

cyanosis......... yes it does. Edited June 17, 2012 by chinook

[ttelise]

Although I don't believe puffer fish exactly fit the situation and symptoms, that would still be a crime of murder and an investigation and public warning should be issued if Thais suspect puffer fish.

Again, puffer seems more of a CN depressant as opposed to a toxin causing acute renal failure and cyanosis such as arsenic, cyanide or conventional poisons. They are hedging it completely away from such a scenario by labeling garden variety food poisoning.

The problem I have is these are easy determinations. Pathology, toxicology, cultures and etc. could easily determine what toxins it bacterium are present. This is very, very basic stuff to determine.

[PoodMaiDai]

BIB doing what they do best.... screw up and cover up.

[ttelise]

Any wonder why crime or murder rates, particularly for foreigners, are so skewed. People hanging themselves in odd bizarre positions, all the jumpers who by all reports seemed happy and left no notes, cases like th is and then all of those unresolved crimes.

Cover ups like this are criminal, but it keeps the crime stats down.

These girls were murdered and the murder is still walking around and will undoubtedly strike again. Maybe this psychopath is a BIB or someone who manipulate the investigation.

They should be saying toxicology shows no signs of pathogens or toxins other than botulism, camplobactor or etc. You dint have to guess in good poisoning. You can identify bacterium through cultures/pathology.

It's a fact that many people who have decided to commit suicide do indeed seem happy, because they are at peace with themselves because they know the end is near. To suggest that all the suicides from tall building are something else is just ridiculous. What are you suggesting, that there is a serial killer who goes around throwing farangs out of tall buildings?

Many people, including you, just don't want to believe the truth. Many farangs here are very stupid and live a dangerous life with no care for their own life. So it's no surprise that many die. Not saying this about these two girls, but about the general situation. Yes, farangs jump out of buildings and kill themselves. They may seem happy but they're not. Just accept it. If you have proof to the contrary then just show it instead of making baseless accusations.

You are very insensitive individual and buy into the Thai mentality hook line and sinker.

This is a part of my profession and there is a simple and acceptable methodology for determining cause of death under the circumstances I mentioned.

Investigators SHOULD always start with the assumption that jumping, hanging, accidental poisoning and etc. are murder and work to exclude foul play under strict methodology to eliminate discretion and arbitrariness. The dead and their family members deserve such an approach.

Thai authorities perform absolutely no comprehensive testing or investigation before leaking conclusions other than foul play. BiB will now do nothing that may tend to show thier initial politically correct cause of death was incorrect. Face should play no role in investigating the deaths if these girls.

People wanting to commit suicide just do it in their home country unless perhaps a terminal illness is involved. People just don't buy tickets to exotic places to kill themselves. If so, our beaches here in US and virgin island would gave high suicide rates. Nevertheless, investigators always start with foul play theory and work backward to exclude, especially when no suicide note. Thai officials do opposite.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[Dellboy218]

British press make no mention of food in the same sentence as poisoning. They also report Police suspect poisoning without any mention of food.

[ttelise]

All the needless speculation, coverup theories and other cynical nonsense here on this and the previous thread make me so very sad for the people here on TV.

Time will show that either the posters on TV are a sad lot , or possess astute powers of deduction......

No, because even if the result were to be e.g. pufferfish poisoning they would never accept that and stick to all kinds of other theories.

Puffer fish poisoning would still be 2nd murder (depravity or conscious indifference) or mamslaughter:criminally negligent homicide and should warrant comprehensive toxicology/pathology and a criminal investigation. I guess murder and protecting others from same fate not a Thai priority if puffer fish poisoning which should be treated same as intentional poisining by arsenic/cyanide from a criminal investigation stand point.

[MEL1]

The conspiracy theorists should spare a thought for the families that are likely to read this!

And maybe they ought to know what those of us who have lived here for a while really know too!

Forget the conspiracies! Enough cover-ups have gone on for more than long enough!

So sparing a few thoughts, the parents should get the bodies out a.s.a.p. for traces of anything, including police residue from mis-used truncheons! This isn't a normal death of 2 girls by any means, and if you think we should not express our experiences of this country's ways, when untoward 3rd world events occur, then I think you should keep schtum....... until it's too late, and then offer apologies to the family for us all being quiet and not offering pieces of what we have experienced.

-mel.

[guyinthailand]

“There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

[MEL1]

This is absolute BS that the Thai Police are already telling everyone that this is food poisoning without the benefit of an autopsy . What the hell is the rush, an autopsy can clarify things, it only takes an extra couple of days instead "Barny Fife" has already muddy the waters. What is it about Thai Police and Politicians that always want to spout out unrealistic BS.

Cos usually they are the perpretrators....... smack bang in the middle of it! Or even responsible for it! Q.E.D.

-mel.

[Credo]

If it was food poisoning, don't they try to trace the food outlet? It's a rather serious case of poisoning to not warrant some rather intensive investigation.

[ttelise]

“There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

I agree on serial killer. Basis profiling 101 just taking what has been discussed on here and sadly, the BiB probably has more info supporting the same and does nothing about since farangs and not home boys are being targeted.

FYI: coumadin and warfarin are blood thinners and are nit same as rat poison.

[Wonka]

Bitter cassava is very poisonous, causing cyanide poisoning if eaten without being flushed in water for a week (or being dried). And it has happened with casualty at Phuket more then one time before.

It happened for a British girl 3 or 4 years ago. My daughter was in Phuket at the same time, and she told me later, that a young guide had told her, that the cassava was flushed to avoid being "intoxicated" (or drunk, like delirium). My wife's Thai son had a similar misconception.

[guyinthailand]

Bitter cassava

Nope. Cassava poisoning does not cause bleeding gums or bruising.

Rat poison does.

[guyinthailand]

"There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

FYI: coumadin and warfarin are blood thinners and are nit same as rat poison.

Rat poison has, for a long time, consisted of anti-coagulants, including warfarin. The rat (or person) has the blood thinned so much that they drown in their own blood. Bleeding gums are a hallmark sign, and so is bruising.

[ttelise]

If it was food poisoning, don't they try to trace the food outlet? It's a rather serious case of poisoning to not warrant some rather intensive investigation.

Exactly. First determine if something like botulism, camplobactor, salmonella, or a typical food pathogen in improperly prepared food. Easy breezy as bacterium will be present in blood and in GI tract. Food poisoning, even botulism, rarely causes deaths these days and botulism would be much wider spread than just two sisters. Everyone eating at that restaurant or vendor at same time would likely have similar complaints.

If puffer fish or the like, then we are dealing with murder or manslaughter warranting a criminal investigation.

[guyinthailand]

from Wikipedia

"It was initially introduced in 1948 as a pesticide against rats and mice and is still used for this purpose, although more potent poisons such as brodifacoum have since been developed".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin

[MEL1]

“There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

What?

Oh! I'm going to Thailand, so I must buy a packet of activated charcoal capsules, what say ye chaps?

<deleted>!

They came to a place which has western food available in every soi. They were in a hotel with western standards, alledgly.

They were able to make wise choices, same as every other farang that visits here, and doesn't die. You just don't get it, do you, the way things are done here!

As for your words of 'a' serial killer, did it never cross your mind that just maybe this is organised death, in a controlled manner by more than one?

-mel.

[guyinthailand]

If it was food poisoning, don't they try to trace the food outlet? It's a rather serious case of poisoning to not warrant some rather intensive investigation.

Exactly. First determine if something like botulism, camplobactor, salmonella, or a typical food pathogen in improperly prepared food. Easy breezy as bacterium will be present in blood and in GI tract. Food poisoning, even botulism, rarely causes deaths these days and botulism would be much wider spread than just two sisters. Everyone eating at that restaurant or vendor at same time would likely have similar complaints.

If puffer fish or the like, then we are dealing with murder or manslaughter warranting a criminal investigation.

Can't be any of the above (botulism, puffer fish, etc) because they don't cause bleeding gums and bruising.

Rat poison does. (which poison is readily available at hardware stores, etc) or can be obtained from doctors, pharmacies, etc as the same chemical (anti-coagulants) are used to thin the blood of those needing such therapy).

[guyinthailand]

“There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

What?

Oh! I'm going to Thailand, so I must buy a packet of activated charcoal capsules, what say ye chaps?

<deleted>!

Activated charcoal is THE number one protocol for most poisonings in EVERY emergency room worldwide.

Activated charcoal could have saved their lives if they had taken it at FIRST sign of feeling unwell.

[Semper]

British press make no mention of food in the same sentence as poisoning. They also report Police suspect poisoning without any mention of food.

Guess they have 'inside information" then.

[ttelise]

"There was a lot of vomit in the room, and both bodies showed similar signs [of trauma]. They had skin lesions and it seemed that they had bled from the gums. Also, their fingernails and toenails were blue."

Sounds like rat poison--warfarin, coumadin, etc--which causes bleeding, vomiting, bruising. Doesn't take much to kill.

(Activated charcoal is first line of defense against most food, etc poisonings. Every traveler should have a packet of activated charcoal capsules in their kit and take them at first sign of feeling unwell--don't wait till vomiting etc starts).

As was pointed out by other posters on other threads of Phi Phi victims and Chiang Mai victims, isn't it strange these victims are, like most of the others, young Western women.

Looks like this serial killer has struck again.

FYI: coumadin and warfarin are blood thinners and are nit same as rat poison.

Rat poison has, for a long time, consisted of anti-coagulants, including warfarin. The rat (or person) has the blood thinned so much that they drown in their own blood. Bleeding gums are a hallmark sign, and so is bruising.

Thanks. I was thinking more along the arsenic lines and I don't think the blood thinners are presently used as often in US. Coumadin and warafrin are commonly used in US for clots, post cardiac surgery, and etc. so in if themselves are not lethal. Not sure coumadin toxicity cause puking. Maybe it does in high levels. That would be an easy diagnosis if coumadin toxicity.

[transam]

British press make no mention of food in the same sentence as poisoning. They also report Police suspect poisoning without any mention of food.

Guess they have 'inside information" then.

OR, the UK understand the findings.

[GentlemanJim]

Having never been to Phi Phi or even to a full moon party, my understanding is that everyone apparently drinks out of buckets? Is that so? I have seen video clips with 1/2 bottles of Vodka or whiskey standing in a bucket with some mixers, and thats how you buy it and stick ice in, empty the contents in the bucket, get a straw and you are away. When I have seen the vids, I have not seen 'branded' drinks. No Smirnoff, etc etc just labels more akin to 'Dr Smiths, brain wangler'. My question is that I would have thought that there was a big market in making illegal booze on Phi Phi and the likes, and of course you only have to get your mix and method a little wrong and you don't make nice sweet spirits, you make something similar to meths that burns with a dark orange flame.

Not having had this stuff but I guess with ice and 2 cans of mixer it tastes as equally disgusting as any other bucket of booze. The fact is it is incredibly dangerous though, and will kill and will easily blind. The issue behind this theory though is like the food poisoning, in that if someone were going to make a 'bad batch' then more than the two girls would have been affected. Any ideas, or thoughts from those with experience of Phi Phi /full moon parties.

Edited June 17, 2012 by GentlemanJim