Contaminated Food May Have Killed Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

[maidu]

Just to clear things up, Dr. Pornthep is NOT Dr. Porntip. Here's a bit of info about Dr. Pornthep, seems well qualified:

You may have noted that Dr Porntep Siriwanarangsan, member of 6th FETP class,

has been agreed by the cabinet since late last month to take the position of

Deputy Permanent Secretary of Public Health starting 1 Oct 2010. He is now

acting in that position while awaiting the process for royal appointment to be

completed some times in the near future.

He is currently, according to Dr Kumnuan FETP4, the highest ranking FETP alumni

on administration side of the Ministry of Public Health, Thailand.

http://health.groups...TP/message/2355

The Field Epidemiology Training Program (FETP) and the Field Epidemiology and Laboratory Training Program (FELTP), which offers an added laboratory component, are applied epidemiology programs offered by CDC to help foreign countries develop, set up, and implement dynamic public health strategies to improve and strengthen their public health system and infrastructure.

The FETP is a 2-year, full-time training and service program, which involves classroom instruction and field assignments.

FETP trainees take courses in epidemiology, communications, economics, and management. They also learn about quantitative- and behavior-based strategies. In addition, FETP trainees work in the field, where they conduct epidemiologic investigations and field surveys; evaluate surveillance systems, perform disease control and prevention measures; report their findings to decision- and policy-makers; and train other health workers.

http://www.cdc.gov/globalhealth/FETP/

You mean to say that a Mr. Dr. Pornthep has been appointed to lead the forensics, and not Ms Dr. Porntip?

That puts a whole new spin on the case. If he's chummy with PT, then I fear the autopsy report will very likely be inconclusive, because inconclusiveness is what the PT government heads and TAT wants. The sooner this is all swept under the carpet and forgotten, the better for the status quo.

[geriatrickid]

These things take time. You can't figure this out over night. Dr. Pornthep is a very good doc and will get to the bottom of it, hopefully.

But out of respect to the families, please show some respect on this thread.

They should insist on a foreign autopsy. Pornthip will provide whatever answer protects Thai tourism the best.

Incorrect! she has stood up to many a Thai establishment in her time and is highly respected!

This is in reply to " They should insist on a foreign autopsy. Pornthip will provide whatever answer protects Thai tourism the best."

Ever heard of a rather dodgy bomb detector that she thoroughly tested and deemed quite a useful little gadget.

Her public statements to date on this case reinforce the impression that she never met a microphone that she didn't love.

First rule of an investigating pathologist is to make no public statements off the cuff.

In polite terms, she's a loose cannon and a loves publicity. Yes, she has the academic credentials, but at times she really lacks common sense.

[lannarebirth]

Dude, you cannot object. This is a forum not a court room

Sustained.

[notime]

It's not easy to cause death of a grown up person by poisoning.

200 milligrams of arsenic trioxide will kill 98% out of 100 persons poisoned. (LDL 50 (lethal dose for arsenic trioxide that kills 50% of a population is about 100mgs)). Warfarin LDL50 is about 6.6 milligrams/kilogram of body weight so for an average Thai it's about 300mg.

Both are odorless, and tasteless. Arsenic compounds are easily obtained as it is used as an insecticide. Warfarin used to be used in rat poison, though it's not much today as most rat populations have become resistant to it.

The LDL50 of Chlorpyrifos, the bedbug insecticide that undoubtedly kill several in Chiang Mai is about 94mg/kilogram of body weight, but Chlorpyrifos can be absorbed through the skin, and inhaled and builds up over time.

So 1/8th-1/4 of a teaspoon, or a large "pinch" or two between the figers of any of the above, alone, has a greater than 50% likelihood of causing a person's deat.

Seems pretty easy if one wanted to--to poison an adult.

"if one wanted to" was exactly my point. What I meant was that it's not easy to poison an adult to death with magic mushrooms, Ibuprofen, other drugs, blow fish, bad food ect. Only substances like arsenic could have done this to the poor victims and the chances that they ate it by their own mistake are pretty remote.

[notime]

It's sickening to me how the Thai police and press straight away suggested everything else but the most likely cause of this terrible tragedy: murder (or manslaughter) by arsenic poisoning. They also seem to try put some of the blame on the victim (they took drugs - magic mushrooms, they ate bad food, they had Ibuprofen in the room .. so what?). This is so typical of Thai culture of total irresponsibility, whitewashing themselves and blaming foreigners for everything bad that happens. This is also disrespectful of the victim families. I hope that because arsenic can easily be detected even long time after the death of victim the truth will come out in this case.

[jdws]

Does anyone know how far away this hotel is from the sewage treatment plant?

The total lack of P-traps in the plumbing out there, combined with phi phi's not so properly implemented sewage system, could cause problems with h2s given the right circumstances.

Edited June 20, 2012 by jdws

[JohnAllan]

Foreign countries, or more accurately, foreign nationals, will have fewer concerns over environmental contamination - or any contamination - if effective action is taken, and is seen to be taken. Being Thailand, we will have to wait and see.

And if these young women did indeed die of contaminated food - or any preventable cause - there is little doubt there would be an image problem. So the chances will be that contaminated food was not the cause.

And ibuprofen - which is, in fact, generally a constituent of another brand medication - requires no more care than many other pain killers/anti-inflammation drugs, and can be safely taken with alcohol if not on a bender.

[cloudhopper]

You mean to say that a Mr. Dr. Pornthep has been appointed to lead the forensics, and not Ms Dr. Porntip?

That puts a whole new spin on the case. If he's chummy with PT, then I fear the autopsy report will very likely be inconclusive, because inconclusiveness is what the PT government heads and TAT wants. The sooner this is all swept under the carpet and forgotten, the better for the status quo.

It seems to me that whatever toxin caused these rather sudden deaths will not be difficult to find and identify, and impossible to cover up. Regardless of motivation an obviously falsified report would prove to be very counterproductive.

[tragickingdom]

It's sickening to me how the Thai police and press straight away suggested everything else but the most likely cause of this terrible tragedy: murder (or manslaughter) by arsenic poisoning. They also seem to try put some of the blame on the victim (they took drugs - magic mushrooms, they ate bad food, they had Ibuprofen in the room .. so what?). This is so typical of Thai culture of total irresponsibility, whitewashing themselves and blaming foreigners for everything bad that happens. This is also disrespectful of the victim families. I hope that because arsenic can easily be detected even long time after the death of victim the truth will come out in this case.

In the end the police causes more damage than they save to the island's economy. It is a Chiangmai scenario. The chances that a serial killer is doing his job are significant given the fact that 4 more victims over the years have been reported. Even when a severe food poisoning occurs the chances are virtual zero that two people die together without one being able to warn any staff.

But this is Thailand, were economic interest come first and than the well being of people. If someone concludes that it is murder, the politicians will step in. They will give the same incompetent police the task to get the killed within 72 hours or so. A scapegoat is found easily and poor people are never represented in court by a lawyer. The entire system stinks.

Blue nails, bloody gums points to arsenic indeed.

[swillowbee]

<snip>

... Thailand's well-earned reputation as an interminably corrupt nation (despite the cynical "Thailand Land of Smiles" international deception campaign) must have gotten through to them.

... as long as the autopsies are conducted by Thais, the pressure by Thai government officials on them to deliver a "Thai favorable" result will be tremendous, regardless of the pathologists credentials and professionalism ... who are they going to abide? ... powerful Thai forces with whom they and their families must live, or totally toothless Canadian diplomats who are irrelevent?

... the family must by now have read of similar tragic deaths here and the consequent Thai whitewashes ... we can only hope the family has the close counsel of foreign experts to oversee the autopsies, and even that they will preserve the necessary evidence to have unbiased laboratories overseas conduct second opinions.

... there is now a consistent, well-documented pattern in Thailand ... I can imagine no scenario where a Thai-led investigation will produce the unvarnished truth ... Thailand is what it is ... while Thais might deny the uncomfortable harsh reality of their nation, a person needn't dig too deeply into the Internet to see their behaviors ... it is smeared all over the place and now beyond the Thai government's censorship of the media and the Internet.

... I hate that the family, who must be grieving deeply, must now confront the ordeal they are about to face.

Edited June 20, 2012 by craigt3365
removed link to Bangkok Post

[craigt3365]

You mean to say that a Mr. Dr. Pornthep has been appointed to lead the forensics, and not Ms Dr. Porntip?

That puts a whole new spin on the case. If he's chummy with PT, then I fear the autopsy report will very likely be inconclusive, because inconclusiveness is what the PT government heads and TAT wants. The sooner this is all swept under the carpet and forgotten, the better for the status quo.

I didn't say that. People were confusing Dr. Pornthep with Dr. Porntip. The former was quoted in the OP.

[crazydrummerpauly]

<snip>

... Thailand's well-earned reputation as an interminably corrupt nation (despite the cynical "Thailand Land of Smiles" international deception campaign) must have gotten through to them.

... as long as the autopsies are conducted by Thais, the pressure by Thai government officials on them to deliver a "Thai favorable" result will be tremendous, regardless of the pathologists credentials and professionalism ... who are they going to abide? ... powerful Thai forces with whom they and their families must live, or totally toothless Canadian diplomats who are irrelevent?

... the family must by now have read of similar tragic deaths here and the consequent Thai whitewashes ... we can only hope the family has the close counsel of foreign experts to oversee the autopsies, and even that they will preserve the necessary evidence to have unbiased laboratories overseas conduct second opinions.

... there is now a consistent, well-documented pattern in Thailand ... I can imagine no scenario where a Thai-led investigation will produce the unvarnished truth ... Thailand is what it is ... while Thais might deny the uncomfortable harsh reality of their nation, a person needn't dig too deeply into the Internet to see their behaviors ... it is smeared all over the place and now beyond the Thai government's censorship of the media and the Internet.

... I hate that the family, who must be grieving deeply, must now confront the ordeal they are about to face.

.

Agree completely, all sympathy to the family. This is so important : " it is smeared all over the place and now beyond the Thai government's censorship of the media and the Internet" The internet and the social media are now the way politics is happening in many parts of the world as we've seen in the 'Arab Spring' and very recently with the case of the Chinese woman forced to abort a 7-month old foetus because of China's 'One Child' rule. Local officials were suspended by government as a result of just one photo being posted online. But with Thailand and some other Asian countries, there is censorship of the internet by Keyword surveillance and routine website blocking. This is highly counter-progressive and part of why the country is not a mature democracy.

[ttelise]

You mean to say that a Mr. Dr. Pornthep has been appointed to lead the forensics, and not Ms Dr. Porntip?

That puts a whole new spin on the case. If he's chummy with PT, then I fear the autopsy report will very likely be inconclusive, because inconclusiveness is what the PT government heads and TAT wants. The sooner this is all swept under the carpet and forgotten, the better for the status quo.

It seems to me that whatever toxin caused these rather sudden deaths will not be difficult to find and identify, and impossible to cover up. Regardless of motivation an obviously falsified report would prove to be very counterproductive.

Arsenic can be difficult. Have to be looking for it. Trace amounts can be found in GI tract and maybe hair and nails. Exposure was brief from induction to death so I am not sure about hair and nails. It can be tricky if not absolutely trying to rule it out and looking for specific markers.

[Morakot]

Pol.Maj.Gen.Jamroon Ruenrom- commissioner of Krabi police conducted a forensic investigation of room #103. The police did not find any trace of violence but found several pills in the room. Including Ibuprofen an anti-inflammatory drug which should be taken with precaution and should not be mixed with alcohol.

A policeman handing out medical advice......a simple search on internet shows:

While it is generally safe to take ibuprofen and drink alcohol, it is highly recommended that you limit the amount of alcohol you drink while taking any medication, especially ibuprofen. Alcohol can irritate your stomach and intestinal tract, and taking ibuprofen or other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), including aspirin, for an extended period of time can also lead to stomach and intestinal irritation, as well as ulcers and potential bleeding problems"

Instead of all the speculation about Ibuprofen, Magic mushrooms and serial killers, should the police not wait until an autopsy is completed....as publishing stuff like this make them look more incompetant than normal...

Fully agree! Unbelievable non-sense and utterly irrelevant the mentioning of the pain-killer medication.

Next, we might hear that they found a pair for nail scissors and that shape objects should be handled with care. Is the Onion.. eh the Nation making this up, or are these investigators really that incompetent?

Edited June 20, 2012 by Morakot

[Chestnut]

Oh my god, I can't believe how this story effects me emotionally. I really hope the relatives and Canadian Authorities do EVERYTHING to find the real cause. It makes me angry how the Thai police "concludes" that there were pills in the room and it's the victims own fault etc.

I feel really sorry for them and their parents and my condolences to all the relatives and friends of these two girls.

[LUSHGOAT]

All complete and utter bull**** I would not believe a word the forensics in Thailand say as they are told already what to say It doesn't matter what they find. I think the Canadian authorities should claim the bodies and carry out the autopsies that's the only way we will know the truth. Well the ostrich will never be extinct or at least its actions in times of trouble as long as Thailand exists.

[softgeorge]

Oh my god, I can't believe how this story effects me emotionally. I really hope the relatives and Canadian Authorities do EVERYTHING to find the real cause. It makes me angry how the Thai police "concludes" that there were pills in the room and it's the victims own fault etc.

I feel really sorry for them and their parents and my condolences to all the relatives and friends of these two girls.

They say it was over the counter pills so they may have merely been paracetamol, vitamin C tablets for after a hard night.

[softgeorge]

Then we have this other thread running alongside this one, maybe the friend who also fell ill can help the authorites.

Scot left stranded on Thai island after her friends ‘poisoned’

[sportsman69]

Does anyone know how far away this hotel is from the sewage treatment plant?

The total lack of P-traps in the plumbing out there, combined with phi phi's not so properly implemented sewage system, could cause problems with h2s given the right circumstances.

Sewage treatment plant?

Do they even have one. if so did it ever work, is it still working??? If not it probably is the cause of the stench emanating from the island when you approach from downwind.

[brianP]

My wife is Thai and never has had food poisoning her entire life here, except twice ,both on, Pi Pi don! I took her in a luggage cart down the dirt road to the hospital like the American man did, and after 2 bags of saline to combat her dehydration we got the heck out. Someone needs to investigate the island and especially the pesticides that the hotels and homestays liberally use. We were there 1 year after the tsunami and fresh water had raw sewage mixed in and the drinking water was shipped in. Salt water to bathe in. The autopsy should show exactly what the poison it was as traces are found in many body parts. The investigators should check for any familiar names of people associated with the other mysterious farang deaths and really be Detectives. Us expats need good networking to share info and knowledge now more than ever!!

[tiger2]

"We planned to send the bodies for post mortem at Surat Thani Hospital because Krabi Hospital has no forensic doctor. However, so far, we have been unable to move them because their relatives and the Canadian Embassy representative who came to Krabi did not allow us to do so," the director said.""

Big Thumbs Up for the family, yaayyyyyy!!

"...did not allow them to do so." Say WHAT??? I find this hard to believe because the Thai authorities are legally, ethically and medically obligated to conduct autopsies--no matter how screwed up/tainted the results turn out.

Take this a step further...If two Thai sisters died under these (same) circumstances in, say, Vancouver do any of you think the Canadian government would allow their relatives and Embassy officers to spirit the victims out of Canada WITHOUT autopsies being performed???

[samsiam]

My wife is Thai and never has had food poisoning her entire life here, except twice ,both on, Pi Pi don! I took her in a luggage cart down the dirt road to the hospital like the American man did, and after 2 bags of saline to combat her dehydration we got the heck out. Someone needs to investigate the island and especially the pesticides that the hotels and homestays liberally use. We were there 1 year after the tsunami and fresh water had raw sewage mixed in and the drinking water was shipped in. Salt water to bathe in. The autopsy should show exactly what the poison it was as traces are found in many body parts. The investigators should check for any familiar names of people associated with the other mysterious farang deaths and really be Detectives. Us expats need good networking to share info and knowledge now more than ever!!

The more stories like this come out about 1 single destination...there are several more....they should be all compiled somewhere to force the issue....embarrassment and loss of face is all that gets these retards to pay attention.

[meand]

You mean to say that a Mr. Dr. Pornthep has been appointed to lead the forensics, and not Ms Dr. Porntip?

That puts a whole new spin on the case. If he's chummy with PT, then I fear the autopsy report will very likely be inconclusive, because inconclusiveness is what the PT government heads and TAT wants. The sooner this is all swept under the carpet and forgotten, the better for the status quo.

It seems to me that whatever toxin caused these rather sudden deaths will not be difficult to find and identify, and impossible to cover up. Regardless of motivation an obviously falsified report would prove to be very counterproductive.

You are saying that with a straight face?

[SunsetT]

............The thought occurred to me that if the girls had ingested anything that they believed to be illegal, e.g., magic mushrooms, then fearing the legal consequences might explain why they never attempted to leave their room to get help when feeling so ill.

[dingdang]

My wife is Thai and never has had food poisoning her entire life here, except twice ,both on, Pi Pi don!

again a women...

[Chopperboy]

My opinion is that it seems like it was a strong poison of some sort.

There are some quite poisonous plants around the region. I had a castor-oil plant in my garden which contains the deadly compound Ricin. There are other plants that contain the related but more deadly compound Abrin, symptoms of which include poisoning include nausea, vomiting, convulsions, liver failure, and death, Ingesting a single seed can kill an adult human.

I am not saying its any of these, but just suggesting it could be something thats commonly available.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Chopperboy

[churchill]

............The thought occurred to me that if the girls had ingested anything that they believed to be illegal, e.g., magic mushrooms, then fearing the legal consequences might explain why they never attempted to leave their room to get help when feeling so ill.

Crap ....nobody especially tourists would put themselves through that .....

The Scottish Lass seems to be trying it on ..

and until the source of the poison is found .....What are the local authorities doing in the area to protect other tourists ...

or are they doing nothing .....

Edited June 20, 2012 by churchill

[bigbamboo]

Phi Phi Don will start to acquire a reputation if this isn't cleared up satisfactorily. Lassa fever, Delhi belly.... Phi Phi Don syndrome?

[Razzler1973]

This is terrible, 12 pages in we don't know anything. I read back a bunch but not all of it.

My initial feelings were some kind of liberal use of poisons to combat rats/insects that the girls somehow ingested, impossible to say of course and just speculation.

Reading all that magic mushroom stuff from a few pages back I can understand a guide giving them to travelers as that's the kind of thing travelers want. I remember being up in the North of Laos many years back and near enough everyone there just wanted a hit on the pipe in the hills.

I assume Mellow Mountain is still open in Haad Rin down South, they used to do Mushroom Shakes so this stuff happens but they do it all the time, I assume nothing untoward happening in Haad Rin full moon after full moon related to mushroom shakes.

Why on earth would people put ground up mossie coils in the shake to pass it off as shrooms? I mean the dangers of that, no one wants their customers falling ill, surely you'd put something else in or nothing and tell people that was a bad batch. I just struggle with the ground up mossie coil thing, seems bizaare

[churchill]

'and until the source of the poison is found .....What are the local authorities doing in the area to protect other tourists ...'