TomTom55 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Tramadol not going to cause any worries when combined with alcohol. Are you sure about that??? Tramadol is a synthetic opiate is it not? Trust me, very sure about all opiate prescription pain medications. Not an opiate, but does have an affinity for mu receptor. Hesitant to say this the way some pick up on things and run with it, but Tramadol does have a slight selective seratonin reuptake inhibtor. Nothing nearly as powerful as the true SSRI anti depressants and the actions is a bit different. The SSRI properties combined with the mu receptor affinity can make trammies cause particularly nasty withdrawals when taken in large doses for long periods of time. The only problem Tramadol present is that it lowers the seizure threshold if you take way too much of it. I know a doctor who was addicted to this stuff taking like 40 to 50 day. I have taken Ultram/Tramadol many times and drank like a fish on them. Drinking on opiates is also no big deal either. The only real devastating combination I know of it taking benzos with methadone. This can slow the respiratory rate down sufficient to cause death if not careful. There have been 2 different times where I have gotten myself into a serious situation due to alcohol and benzos/opiates here. One I have already described and it seems to paint a similar picture to the vomit covered room. I was taking a lot of valium as my tolerance was way high, 300-400mgs a day, yes 300-400 not 30-40 and I drank a lot of whisky one day and boom, 2 days gone from my memory entirely. My GF found me in a room full of vomit half dead, bluish lips and a kind of white foam around my mouth. Bad times. I am not saying that this is what happened to the 2 women, I am saying that benzos and alcohol can be dangerous and the combination has killed. Another time it was my birthday and I was out with a few people and my GF drinking, I was taking xanax, valium and clonazepam as well, also as my friend had a broken leg he gave me 60mg of morphine oral. When we came home I fell asleep in a wooden armchair on a kind of decking area which was also a large balcony, but I fell asleep with all of my weight on my left arm. When I woke up I realized my left hand was totally numb and I could not move it. It stayed that way for 4 months not being able to move it whatsoever, it would just flop around. I thought it was going to be like that forever as hospital treatment was not helping, funnily enough when I stopped going to the hospital for therapy it started to get better and returned to 100%. After contemplating this situation with these 2 unfortunate women, I don't know what to think. I throw out the idea that they were using benzos but maybe they were given a roofy at too high of a dose. The thing that needs to be taken into account though is the fact they have both died in a similar fashion. People can throw their opinions around all day long, but the only way this is going to be resolved is after the autopsy and toxicology report. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopperboy Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Here is a link to a news story about a similar incident that occurred in a two week time frame last year at another hotel in Thailand. Keep in mind that is only one hotel of several that these kind of deaths have occurred in Thailand since 2009. http://www.ttrweekly...emicals-blamed/ Since that story was printed last year about the Downtown Inn, the owner of that hotel gutted it and totally remodeled it only to find some of the problem still continued to exist. Earlier this month the owners of the newly remodeled Downtown Inn gave up and the entire hotel was torn down. These chemicals are illegal in most counties including Thailand but some hotel owners continue to use them anyway. The chemical found in CM was Chlorpyrifos - its a widely used pesticide in the USA. When fed to rats at the dose of 3 mg/kg/day for 2 years and 100mg per day for 104 days they didn't die or get cancer. Its just not that toxic! Reference Cornell University study Edited June 23, 2012 by Chopperboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopperboy Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I believe that we may be dealing with a toxic plant poison of some sort. These are the symptoms of ingestion of the extremely toxic plant protein Abrin Vomiting, vomiting blood, diarrhea, abdominal cramps/pain, severe inflammation of the lining of the stomach and intestine (gastroenteritis), Bleeding (hemorrhage) in the stomach and intestines, Drowsiness, disorientation, weakness, stupor, convulsions, excessive thirst (polydipsia), Possible bleeding of the membrane in the rear of the eye (retinal hemorrhage), blood in the urine (hematuria), multi-system organ failure, collapse of the blood vessels (vascular collapse), bluish skin (cyanosis), low blood pressure, Shock, and respiratory failure may follow and lead to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackthorn2005 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "The Post reports the sisters were spotted at various night spots on Phi Phi island alongside Tinto and another unidentified Portuguese national." If the BiB have yet to locate Tinto, and his companion has not been identified, how do they know he is Portuguese? One of them stayed at the same hotel so they would have a copy of his passport I guess. So not 'unidentified'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon43 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I wonder if there was an incorrectly ventilated Pool Heater near thier Room? This hotel is in south Thailand - you do not need pool heaters - it's hot here all the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I wonder if there was an incorrectly ventilated Pool Heater near thier Room? This hotel is in south Thailand - you do not need pool heaters - it's hot here all the time... Simon, cant let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theroy can you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "The Post reports the sisters were spotted at various night spots on Phi Phi island alongside Tinto and another unidentified Portuguese national." If the BiB have yet to locate Tinto, and his companion has not been identified, how do they know he is Portuguese? One of them stayed at the same hotel so they would have a copy of his passport I guess. So not 'unidentified'! I see it as 1 identified and one not identified. But who knows. The information coming out is as 'clear as mud'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullcave Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I still believe these fatalities are yet another accidental poisoning by bed bug killer as in Chiang Mai. Just too many similarities including the speculation of everything from food poison (from outside source), illegal drugs, OTC drugs, mushrooms, psychopath on loose, eating jelly fish. too much red bull etc etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidermike007 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 The plot thickens, as the BIB try to muddy the waters to ensure that there is no damage to Thai reputation. Exactamundo. Farengs are known to be responsible for all evil in the world. The Thai people are known to be of such purity, that they could never cause physical, or financial harm to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 this CM-bedbugkiller kills people faster than the bedbugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britmaveric Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 If it were insecticide you'd see deaths of staff and other guests not just two. I doubt it is anything to do with the hotel which is a bit obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I still believe these fatalities are yet another accidental poisoning by bed bug killer as in Chiang Mai. Just too many similarities including the speculation of everything from food poison (from outside source), illegal drugs, OTC drugs, mushrooms, psychopath on loose, eating jelly fish. too much red bull etc etc.... But aren't symptoms completely different? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "The Post reports the sisters were spotted at various night spots on Phi Phi island alongside Tinto and another unidentified Portuguese national." If the BiB have yet to locate Tinto, and his companion has not been identified, how do they know he is Portuguese? One of them stayed at the same hotel so they would have a copy of his passport I guess. So not 'unidentified'! I think you would need to be on the police force and be one of the investigators managing the case if you want to be privy to all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) but it appears so likely, that it has to do with the hotel/room... chiang mai - all one guesthouse, not eating there (the women who just swam) etc etc... phi phi - same room, or neighbouring rooms in one guesthouse... perhaps it could be explained, if it infects MANY people, but not everyone to the same extend... this is typical for ecoli, or staphylococcus and streptococcus (not sure about spelling)... bacteria and virus... with the ecoli acting worse on women than on men... it can be a mutated bacteria/virus... not everyone who vomits a night calls the doctor or even sees the hospital, not even after days necessarily... there are much more people sick, than in the hospital... Edited June 23, 2012 by dingdang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 If it were insecticide you'd see deaths of staff and other guests not just two. I doubt it is anything to do with the hotel which is a bit obvious. Not if just one room was fumigated or even one mattress. Also chemical gas is known to pool in air pockets, so could just effect one room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopperboy Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 If it were insecticide you'd see deaths of staff and other guests not just two. I doubt it is anything to do with the hotel which is a bit obvious. Not if just one room was fumigated or even one mattress. Also chemical gas is known to pool in air pockets, so could just effect one room. Chlorpyrifos acts on pests primarily as a contact poison, with some action as a stomach poison. It is a nonsystemic contact chemical, meaning that it is acts only where it comes into direct contact. The lethal concentration fifty, or LC50, is that concentration of a chemical in air or water that kills half of the experimental animals exposed to it for a set time period. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 200 mg/m3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atyclb Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Tramadol not going to cause any worries when combined with alcohol. Are you sure about that??? Tramadol is a synthetic opiate is it not? Trust me, very sure about all opiate prescription pain medications. Not an opiate, but does have an affinity for mu receptor. Hesitant to say this the way some pick up on things and run with it, but Tramadol does have a slight selective seratonin reuptake inhibtor. Nothing nearly as powerful as the true SSRI anti depressants and the actions is a bit different. The SSRI properties combined with the mu receptor affinity can make trammies cause particularly nasty withdrawals when taken in large doses for long periods of time. The only problem Tramadol present is that it lowers the seizure threshold if you take way too much of it. I know a doctor who was addicted to this stuff taking like 40 to 50 day. I have taken Ultram/Tramadol many times and drank like a fish on them. Drinking on opiates is also no big deal either. The only real devastating combination I know of it taking benzos with methadone. This can slow the respiratory rate down sufficient to cause death if not careful. There have been 2 different times where I have gotten myself into a serious situation due to alcohol and benzos/opiates here. One I have already described and it seems to paint a similar picture to the vomit covered room. I was taking a lot of valium as my tolerance was way high, 300-400mgs a day, yes 300-400 not 30-40 and I drank a lot of whisky one day and boom, 2 days gone from my memory entirely. My GF found me in a room full of vomit half dead, bluish lips and a kind of white foam around my mouth. Bad times. I am not saying that this is what happened to the 2 women, I am saying that benzos and alcohol can be dangerous and the combination has killed. Another time it was my birthday and I was out with a few people and my GF drinking, I was taking xanax, valium and clonazepam as well, also as my friend had a broken leg he gave me 60mg of morphine oral. When we came home I fell asleep in a wooden armchair on a kind of decking area which was also a large balcony, but I fell asleep with all of my weight on my left arm. When I woke up I realized my left hand was totally numb and I could not move it. It stayed that way for 4 months not being able to move it whatsoever, it would just flop around. I thought it was going to be like that forever as hospital treatment was not helping, funnily enough when I stopped going to the hospital for therapy it started to get better and returned to 100%. After contemplating this situation with these 2 unfortunate women, I don't know what to think. I throw out the idea that they were using benzos but maybe they were given a roofy at too high of a dose. The thing that needs to be taken into account though is the fact they have both died in a similar fashion. People can throw their opinions around all day long, but the only way this is going to be resolved is after the autopsy and toxicology report. 300-400 mg valium / day by itself ; It is a miracle if you remember any day. xanax, valium clonazepam, morphine and alcohol; Have you ever pondered the possibility of substance abuse or addiction ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjhbigv Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "Police inspected the clip after initial investigation of the sisters' hotel room turned up a note left by Luciano Tinnto, 30, saying that he was sorry about what had happened that night as it was unintentional." Woah, hold on, if this is true and we have no reason to believe it is not (especially as the police have the note), throws a completely different perspective on the case! I can now see why the police DO want to talk to him! "Sorry about what had happened" When would the guy have left the note in the room? After the girls had died? While they were ill? Obviously, he was concerned about something and is definitely a key witness to events! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) then he wrote the note on WEDNESDAY - because he LEFT ON WEDNESDAY... as if nisa claims, the police only speaks the truth, then it must be bangkok posts apologist "journalists" who lie all along the way here... the note cant have been written on friday - "the day they died"... ok, then we know that they know: the guy left the note the day they died - then they know the girls were dead some time on wednesday... have they listened at the door? Edited June 23, 2012 by dingdang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Wednesday he was with the girls in the CCTV footage, was he on the way to the airport next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 wednesday 01:10 to 01:14 am or so, he was on the footage... in the beginning it was reported, he left on wednesday for phuket... some days later it was said, he left "the day the girls died"... lastly, it was said, he left on friday... in the thai papers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabel Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Thai investigators are looking for two Portuguese men, who were seen on closed-circuit cameras escorting Noemi and Audrey Belanger back to their hotel room. So, it takes a week before they can act on security camera footage. I'm guessing it was not so easy to pin this one on Ibuprofen. There is sooo much contradiction in all of the Thai reports ... OMG... first it was 1 Portuguese guy... now it's 2.... and then they were found and death was estimated at about 12 hours before they were found but here it states 24 Hours...?? What the hell ...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjhbigv Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Thai investigators are looking for two Portuguese men, who were seen on closed-circuit cameras escorting Noemi and Audrey Belanger back to their hotel room. So, it takes a week before they can act on security camera footage. I'm guessing it was not so easy to pin this one on Ibuprofen. There is sooo much contradiction in all of the Thai reports ... OMG... first it was 1 Portuguese guy... now it's 2.... and then they were found and death was estimated at about 12 hours before they were found but here it states 24 Hours...?? What the hell ...?? I must admit it's all getting a bit 'blurry' shall we say! But IF the facts about the letter/Portuguese guys are true (and to be fair, no reason to doubt it, from CCTV footage etc), it does seem a bit weird, to say the least! They did seem to leave in a bit of a hurry or was that their plans anyway ie. holiday finished etc. I think they have a few questions that need to be put to them BUT they are back in Portugal, makes things a little more difficult now! I wonder if the facts will eventually be known? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puwa Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) If it were insecticide you'd see deaths of staff and other guests not just two. I doubt it is anything to do with the hotel which is a bit obvious. Not if they were sleeping on mattresses that had been improperly treated with toxic pesticides. Bedbugs are a huge problem in cheap hotels and guesthouses all throughout southern Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Hotels are in a constant battle with the little demons, and often have to fumigate. The chemicals are dangerous and must be handled properly. There are procedures for getting the right concentration, removing residue, airing out mattresses after treatment. If it's not done right, toxins remain. You can be perfectly fine until you go to sleep with your nose and mouth right up against the stuff. This was the strongest hypothesis in the Downtown Inn deaths. In this case it's also a hypothesis, one which does have something to do with the hotel, which is a bit obvious. Edited June 23, 2012 by Puwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 You can be perfectly fine until you go to sleep with your nose and mouth right up against the stuff. and maybe having the aircon running, pushing the stuff up and through the air you are breathing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidu Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 "Thai Police Hunt For Portuguese Men In Phi-Phi Island Hotel Death Case" Translation: Thai officials stall for more time until the case can conveniently vanish. ....and people (primarily farang) forget about this sad incident, and go back to spending money as good tourists should. My first impression of Thai police prowess was in 1998, when reporting a stolen motorbike. The cop at the desk took three hours to type a one page report (in Thai, he was typing with one finger, several characters per minute). At the end of the ordeal, they told me the motorbike would almost certainly be taken over the border crossing, 1 hour drive away. I was aghast. Why didn't they immediately contact border authorities, as soon as I came in to report the theft? That's why I had to sigh, when reading the Phuket police apparently didn't act with alacrity when being given clues (to this case) which needed to be acted on swiftly. You can't expect a turtle to run like a horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) My first impression of Thai police prowess was in 1998, when reporting a stolen motorbike. The cop at the desk took three hours to type a one page report (in Thai, he was typing with one finger, several characters per minute). At the end of the ordeal, they told me the motorbike would almost certainly be taken over the border crossing, 1 hour drive away. I was aghast. Why didn't they immediately contact border authorities, as soon as I came in to report the theft? They should have sealed off the entire town and set up road blocks. Then they should have immediately started aerial surveillance along the border region while performing house to house searches in case the criminals where holding up until the heat cooled down. Edited June 24, 2012 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I am not so sure we can identify any significant flaws in the police activity regarding this case so far. They seem to be cooperating with Canada, and they have not ruled out things that harm Thailand's image. I get this idea that one of the old guys on the force said to his underlings. "Well it is a great life we have here on the force, getting paid to fail and people are always eager to fill out wallets. But while we are wearing these uniforms, why don't we have a go at solving one of these mysteries? C'mon it'll be just like CSI." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidu Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Particularly poignant when seeing the photos of the healthy happy girls. Dozens of young folks come and go to my farm up here in Chiang Rai, via a work-exchange / home-stay program. All leave with smiles - plus they learn useful skills, like organic gardening, alternative building techniques, alternative power mechanics, etc. Quite a bit different from Phuket and Pattaya, where young folks get drunk, hung-over, ripped off by jet-ski renters and taxis, and sometimes get sick and die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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