1 Year Non B Visa - Best Embassy/Consulate?

[amylou]

Hey,

Thanks in advance.

Long story short, I work for UK company that wants me in Thailand to help start up a new company with currently only minimal staff (hence why I can't get a work permit). Have all the relevant documents etc.

I need a 1 year multi-entry B visa. Last time I got some bad advice (from the company solicitors) and was told to go to KL. Once there, unfortunately they said they only issued 3 months to enable getting your work permit once in Thailand. but as I said above, this is not an option.

Can anyone tell me where will definitely (or most likely) issue a one year b visa? Preferably in Asia. It's very stressful being forced to apply for new visa's every 3 months and I would almost certainly lose my job if I could not be in Thailand or if they refused me entry one time.

Your experiences and advice would be awesome. Oh, I'm a UK citizen and have been to Thailand twice before as a tourist!!

Thanks so much

[beano2274]

and you will still need a work permit to work here. In Asia they will only offer 3 monthers as far as I know, sorry

Edited June 22, 2012 by beano2274

[bigt116]

I wonder what kind of company that it is that you work for, that wants you to work illegally here in the Kingdom ?

[digitalchromakey]

OP - you say that applying for a visa every three months is stressful; then I guess you should also be feeling stressed about working illegally in Thailand.

If you are caught working with a WP, or some one turns you in, then under the Working of Aliens Act 2008 you could be imprisoned for up to 5 years, fined up to 100,000 THB and then deported at your cost.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's not that difficult (or expensive) to constitute a company here that could provide a legal Work Permit and if your current 'Employer' is not prepared to facilitate this then the best advice I can give you is to find a new employer here that will ........

[Mario2008]

Basicly your employer is asking you to brake the law. Not sure what a UK court would make of the actions of your employer, but I would say no thanks to your boss as a Thai court will find it a criminal act committed by you.

Have you employer contact a law firm to explore the options of working legally in Thailand, by opening up a representatives office or something like that in Thailand.

[NHJ]

just hire the 4 required employees, get the WP and fire them, next year for renewal you'll only need one that needs to be registered with the social security office.

[PoorSucker]

just hire the 4 required employees, get the WP and fire them, next year for renewal you'll only need one that needs to be registered with the social security office.

Ignore this, you need 4 employees and a company capital of 2 million baht each year.

If you are married to a Thai, you only need 2 employees and 1 million baht capital.

[amylou]

Sorry, I'm not sure if I was clear of if I'm completely stupid, but I'm not working for the thai company. I'm employed in the UK and just here on business to advise about the industry in the UK and how it would work in thailand.

You don't need a work permit to be here on business.

Can anyone clarify this or help with the actual question I asked?

[amylou]

Sorry, also, as I said we have been discussing this with the company solicitors. I would be extremely surprised If they are telling me to do something illegal and they have extensive knowledge in this area. Can someone point me to where in the law it says I need a work permit to be here on business and clarify what a business visa is for if it isn't for being here on business?

I'm sorry I'm being a bit defensive but you've made me worried (which I have seen no legal backing for) and all I wanted was an opinion on the consulate//embassy.

[lopburi3]

Believe your opening sentence appeared to indicate you were opening a new company for your UK employer in Thailand and thus working here. If you are/were even signing paperwork for a company here you will need a work permit.

Long story short, I work for UK company that wants me in Thailand to help start up a new company with currently only minimal staff (hence why I can't get a work permit). Have all the relevant documents etc.

[beano2274]

Example for you - when Lady Gaga came here for a concert she also had to have a WP.

Does not matter what country your company is from to do business here in Thailand you will need a WP, look at the Ministry of Labour website.

[Mario2008]

You are in a bit of a grey area, as a business person coming to Thailand for business meetings, making a contract between his company abroad and a Thai company, etc would not need a work permit.

You on the other hand seem to be an advisor, permanently based in Thailand. It would really depend on what you exactly will be doing if you would require a work permit or not. You yourself seem to be stating that you need one, but can't get one because of lack of enough employees.

Back to your question about a multiple non-B, in the region that is unlikely without a work permit. Europe and Australia are your best bet to get a multiple non-B, based on needing to do frequent business travels to Thailand.

[beano2274]

you also said about the company's solicitors, sorry but the company is based in England, are the solicitors English or Thai?

[amylou]

You're right it is a grey area and not particularly easy to explain. The companies are completely separate legal entities, but run by some of the same people. If it would be possible to get a work permit by working at the thai company, my employed theoretically could be transferred. When I said the 'company solicitors', actually I meant the thai company and they are thai solicitors. Sorry I can see I wasn't clear.

I'm quite confident in the solicitors ability and do believe that my situation is legal, even if it is only a technicality. I guess that's the job of a solicitor - to make sure things are technically legal. Ticking all the boxes etcetera.

Getting back to the topic, thank you for the advice about Europe and Australia. I have been on countless embassy websites, and saw that Singapore say they do multi-B visa's but in practice people on here have not been granted one. Sound's like I may need to go further afield and I will check out those places now.

Any further advice or experiences in this would be very helpful.

Thanks again.

[ubonjoe]

The nearest place where you possibly could get a multiple entry visa without a work permit is Australia at one of the honorary Thai consulates.

Four Thai employees is all that is needed to get a work permit. I can't see it being that difficult to have that number of employees if the company you are working for is serious about setting up the company.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ubonjoe

[lomatopo]

Based on my read of your situation, it seems like the appropriate visa would be a one-year multiple entry Non-Immigrant B Visa. You would be stamped in for 90 days upon each arrival.

In theory you would get that in the U.K. from a Thai Consulate/Embassy, with supporting documentation from your Employer.

[digitalchromakey]

Sorry, also, as I said we have been discussing this with the company solicitors. I would be extremely surprised If they are telling me to do something illegal and they have extensive knowledge in this area. Can someone point me to where in the law it says I need a work permit to be here on business and clarify what a business visa is for if it isn't for being here on business?

I'm sorry I'm being a bit defensive but you've made me worried (which I have seen no legal backing for) and all I wanted was an opinion on the consulate//embassy.

but in your first post you wrote

I need a 1 year multi-entry B visa. Last time I got some bad advice (from the company solicitors) and was told to go to KL.

Well how confident are you that these particular lawyers have 'extensive knowledge in this area' ?

Over time you will discover that super-competence or even knowledge of ones own level of competence are unfortunately neither the norm here in Thailand.

You asked for some pointers; attached at the bottom is a translation of the Thai 2008 Working of Aliens Act - Particularly look at Sections 4, 5 & 9 and you will see the definition of work requiring permission is very broad and does not even require remuneration.

A Non Immigrant Visa Category 'B' (Business Visa) allows you to enter for Thailand for business; but it does not permit you to work. Here is the link to the MFA Non Immigrant Type 'B' Visa web information http://www.mfa.go.th...482.php?id=2492

Look at Section 1.1 of this MFA page, which I quote below with the pertinent section underlined:

1.1 Foreigners who wish to work, conduct business or undertake investment activities in Thailand must apply for a Non-Immigrant Visa at the Royal Thai Embassies or Royal Thai Consulates-General. Various categories of the Non-Immigrant Visa are currently provided to meet the needs and qualifications of individual business persons. These include business visa Category “B”, business-approved visa Category “B-A” and investment and business visa Category “IB”. Holder of this type of visa wishing to work in Thailand must be granted a work permit before starting work.

From the list of items in Section 2.1 (1) on the same MFA web page, you can see that either to work or conduct business in Thailand a Work Permit is required.

This is why you will find it near impossible to get a One Year Non B Visa with out a Work Permit in this region, as all the 'local' embassies/consulates are very familiar with the regulations which are spelt out in Section 2.1 (2) Item 5

(5) Holder of this type of visa is entitled to stay in Thailand for a maximum period of 90 days. He or she may apply for an extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau and may be granted such extension for a period of one year from the date of first entry into Thailand.

Plus read Section 3.1 which states that you must apply for a work permit on entering Thailand with a non B visa, even though this is not policed - this is the relevant immigration law.

Anyway from what you say, it sounds like the Thai version of your UK Company could produce the papers to get you a Work Permit.

So what have you got to lose by doing this? If nothing else then as insurance/ belt & braces, but also so you can get the One Year Non B at KL - which by the way is the best place to go in this region with an 8 month+ valid WP and correct company papers.

.

Working of Aliens Act 2008.pdf

[animatic]

To get a non im B you need an offer of employment guarantee from a Thai company

Copies of the companies papers any thai lawyer would know about.

And your passports copied etc.

Penang is ok if you use a local broker, who makes sure all is in order before

taking your paperwork to the embassy. There are managers of good sized hotels

doing this, so it's less dodgy than it sounds. I just redid a non im B recently this way.

Brisbane is an easy consulate in Aus, Sidney less so.

I have yet to see a listing of companies worker bee employees shown.

Just the company officers in charge. And the company papers,

which must be less than 3 months old and signed by the General Director

and stamped with company stamp. About 40 pages in all.

Once you enter Thailand with a non im b in your passport, then you must file for the Work Permit.

Make sure it lists ALL your possible job descriptions, AND locations you might work.

If you might go to another province to do something hen you need it stated

multiple provinces are covered not just Bangkok.

In office only ever, or in and out of office, should be stated too.

I had friend get hassled for 50,000 baht because he had a meeting out of the office.

And his WP... only said he can work in his office.

But 2 secretaries, a gardener, and office cleaner would do.

The idea is for foreigners to be training thais in something,

But all they might care about is that taxes are paid monthly for 'someone'.

To have a WP. Is 1,750 baht per worker per month in taxes / accounting fees.

So 'names' can be hired and taxes paid for their non-functioning minimum wage positions.

Actual staff cost starts at 300 baht a day 20 days a month

6,000 baht x 4 or 24,000 baht a month.

And no one looks further.

It is not quite as catch 22 as it was made to sound above by some.

You can't get a non im b without a work permit,

You can't get a WP without a non im b.

If the company has papers and anything resembling staff, then that works,

The actual persons can defer pay, as their second jobs as long as taxes are paid.

As they say, there are ways and there are ways.

What it most sounds like is the English company is being so cheap

they don't even want skeleton local thai staff as a expense.

So it really sounds rather fly by night.

The reason to dot these I's is because a competitor or any jealous vindictive thai

Could make a single phone call and stitch you up over a WP.

And it gets expensive fast...

Edited June 23, 2012 by animatic

[amylou]

Thanks for all your comments. I'm going to speak to the solicitors again on Monday to get some clarification and maybe a second opinion from elsewhere.

Thanks for the tip about Brisbane, might be worth a try.

[amylou]

I've just been doing some more research and have another question which someone might be able to answer....

Looking at the MFA website and I believe the following best fits my situation:

(2) Foreigners who wish to conduct business in Thailand must provide the following documents:

- Passport or travel document with a validity of not less than 6 months.

- Completed application form.

- Recent passport-sized photograph (4 x 6 cm) photograph of the applicant taken within the past 6 months.

- Evidence of adequate finance (20,000 Baht per person and 40,000 Baht per family) for the duration of stay in Thailand

- Letter from the applicant’s company indicating the applicant’s position, length of employment, salary and purpose of visit(s) to Thailand.

- Documents showing correspondence with business partners in Thailand.

- Evidence of financial status in the case where the applicant is self-employed.

- Letter of invitation from trading or associated partners/companies in Thailand.

- Corporate documents of associated partners/companies in Thailand such as:

1) business registration and business license

2) list of shareholders

3) company profile

4) details of business operation

5) map indicating location of the company

6) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por

Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30) of the latest year

7) value-added tax registration (Por Por 20)

(3) Copies of company documents must be signed by the Board of Directors or authorised managing director and affix seal of company.

(4) Additional documents may be requested as and when necessary. In the absence of a required document, applicant must provide a letter explaining the unavailability of such document. Applicant must endorse on each and every page of the submitted copies of documentation. Documents in foreign languages must be translated into Thai and should be notorised by notary organs or by the applicant’s diplomatic or consular mission.

(5) Holder of this type of visa is entitled to stay in Thailand for a maximum period of 90 days. He or she may apply for an extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau and may be granted such extension for a period of one year from the date of first entry into Thailand.

This doesn't mention anything about needing/granting a work permit but says the visa can be extended to 1 year. Can anyone advise more on this section or provide any further details?

Also, the section regarding 'Approved Business' visa's is a little ambiguous really but sounds like it could also fit. Does anyone have any more info on this?

2.2 Non-Immigrant Visa category “B-A” (Business Approved Visa) The granting of such visa to qualified applicants is under the jurisdiction of the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Bangkok. The applicant’s associated company in which he or she will invest in or conduct business with may apply for this type of visa on behalf of the applicant at the Office of the Immigration Bureau. Once the application is approved, the Immigration Bureau will advise the concerned Royal Thai Embassy or Royal Consulate-General via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to issue the visa to the applicant. The holder of this category “B-A” visa will be permitted to stay for a period of one year from the date of first entry into the Kingdom.

Thanks. I couldn't get the website for the Brisbane thai embassy to work... hopefully I can get things sorted without going that far.

[beano2274]

Immigration and MFA have no ideas of the rules concerning work permits, suggest you read the Ministry of Labour website.

Also sometimes if you get a visa from outside of Thailand, it might be stamped with "the applicant is advised to apply for a Work Permit which should be presented to the authorities next time", thus this small sentence might cause you problems when trying to renew a visa or do a border run.

[digitalchromakey]

@amylou posted an extract from the MFA Non Immigrant Visa Category 'B' Webpage Section 2.1 (2) Foreigners who wish to conduct business in Thailand must provide the following documents:

then asked the question:

This doesn't mention anything about needing/granting a work permit but says the visa can be extended to 1 year. Can anyone advise more on this section or provide any further details?

I will quote this MFA page again, look at section 1.1 which applies to all classes of Non B Visa Issued as outlined in section 2; I have underlined the pertinent clause which clearly states that holders of Category B Visas must be granted a Work Permit before starting work.

1. Visa Issuance

1.1 Foreigners who wish to work, conduct business or undertake investment activities in Thailand must apply for a Non-Immigrant Visa at the Royal Thai Embassies or Royal Thai Consulates-General. Various categories of the Non-Immigrant Visa are currently provided to meet the needs and qualifications of individual business persons. These include business visa Category “B”, business-approved visa Category “B-A” and investment and business visa Category “IB”. Holder of this type of visa wishing to work in Thailand must be granted a work permit before starting work.

For reference below is an example list of the requirements for a One Year Extension of Permission to Stay under Section 2.1 of Police Order 777/2551.

If your UK company can form a Representative Office in Thailand then it may not need to either show 2 million capitalisation, or have two fiscal years of financial statements, or even employ you locally to get the extension; but for sure if you are working in Thailand then with few exceptions you will require a Work Permit.

[amylou]

How can I get a work permit if I don't work for a thai company? I'm here on business! for meetings. advice. consultations. etc. NOT to work for a company here!

Can someone please make some sense of this because I'm so lost.

For a work permit, you need to work for a thai company, with at least 4 to 1 thai to foreign staff, earning over 50,000 baht a year, amongst other criteria. But I'm paid in sterling and work for a UK company with all uk staff. The thai company has all thai staff but is NOT the same company and therefore cannot give me a work permit because i don't work for them!

I don't believe that all business people coming to thailnd to work purposes (and working for international organisations) all have work permits. It's literally not possible due to the criteria requiring you to work for a thai company.

Or am I missing something?

[digitalchromakey]

How can I get a work permit if I don't work for a thai company? I'm here on business! for meetings. advice. consultations. etc. NOT to work for a company here!

Can someone please make some sense of this because I'm so lost.

For a work permit, you need to work for a thai company, with at least 4 to 1 thai to foreign staff, earning over 50,000 baht a year, amongst other criteria. But I'm paid in sterling and work for a UK company with all uk staff. The thai company has all thai staff but is NOT the same company and therefore cannot give me a work permit because i don't work for them!

I don't believe that all business people coming to thailnd to work purposes (and working for international organisations) all have work permits. It's literally not possible due to the criteria requiring you to work for a thai company.

Or am I missing something?

Here is an article you might find interesting http://www.mondaq.co...mit May Be Dire

You previously posted that:

The companies are completely separate legal entities, but run by some of the same people. If it would be possible to get a work permit by working at the thai company, my employed theoretically could be transferred.

So I am sure that a Work Permit can be sorted out as you do not have to be paid in Thailand to be considered as working here; the Thai subsidiary can sponsor the application for your Work Permit but does need to follow the usual 4:1 ratio and capitalisation rules.

To get a WP you do not need a salary of 50,000 THB pcm (I presume p.c.m. not p.a.) - this is only a requirement for Extensions of Permission to Stay on the basis of undertaking Business in the Kingdom of Thailand.

The Thai Company can issue a contract for the services that you are suppling on behalf of your UK employer and all the other papers to support a Work Permit application.

As an alternative, your UK Company perhaps should also consider forming a Represenative Branch Office (which is not bound by the 4:1 employee ratio rule) and can have two Work Permits for foreigners who advise on company products/procedures/report to head office. Here is a link with more details http://www.sunbeltle...ntative-office/

Such a Representative Office has to file financial reports but as it is non profit, there is no Thai tax liability per se.

[pistachios]

Hi, amylou

You should be able to get a one year multiple entry business visa from any european or australian thai consulate with the documentation you seem to already pocess , however, according to the law, what you will be doing in thailand could be considered as work :

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/thailand-visa-and-work-permit/thailand-work-permit/reminder-working-in-thailand-without-a-work-permit-may-be-severely-punished.html

- director of a company that signs agreements with suppliers or sign checks to paid the expenses of a company would be considered working

- business men that comes to Thailand to take part in negotiations, speak at a conference, provide technical support, or source for a local supplier would be considered working

Therefore, unless you want to get a work permit which seems like a nightmare for your case, you can only go there with your business visa and hope you will not get caught "working". As you will not have any offices or whatnot, I think the risk is fairly minimal but you should probably discuss about this possibility with your company first.

[digitalchromakey]

How can I get a work permit if I don't work for a thai company? I'm here on business! for meetings. advice. consultations. etc. NOT to work for a company here!

Can someone please make some sense of this because I'm so lost.

For a work permit, you need to work for a thai company, with at least 4 to 1 thai to foreign staff, earning over 50,000 baht a year, amongst other criteria. But I'm paid in sterling and work for a UK company with all uk staff. The thai company has all thai staff but is NOT the same company and therefore cannot give me a work permit because i don't work for them!

I don't believe that all business people coming to thailnd to work purposes (and working for international organisations) all have work permits. It's literally not possible due to the criteria requiring you to work for a thai company.

Or am I missing something?

Here is an article you might find interesting http://www.mondaq.co...mit May Be Dire

You previously posted that:

The companies are completely separate legal entities, but run by some of the same people. If it would be possible to get a work permit by working at the thai company, my employed theoretically could be transferred.

So I am sure that a Work Permit can be sorted out as you do not have to be paid in Thailand to be considered as working here; the Thai subsidiary can sponsor the application for your Work Permit but does need to follow the usual 4:1 ratio and capitalisation rules.

To get a WP you do not need a salary of 50,000 THB pcm (I presume p.c.m. not p.a.) - this is only a requirement for Extensions of Permission to Stay on the basis of undertaking Business in the Kingdom of Thailand.

The Thai Company can issue a contract for the services that you are suppling on behalf of your UK employer and all the other papers to support a Work Permit application.

As an alternative, your UK Company perhaps should also consider forming a Represenative Branch Office (which is not bound by the 4:1 employee ratio rule) and can have two Work Permits for foreigners who advise on company products/procedures/report to head office. Here is a link with more details http://www.sunbeltle...ntative-office/

Such a Representative Office has to file financial reports but as it is non profit, there is no Thai tax liability per se.

Just noticed that there is now registration required to access the article I linked to at the start of my post above; so here is another link to the same article: http://www.tilleke.c...ut-a-permit.pdf