Are Farangs Not To Blame For Bringing Thai Problems Upon Themselves

[Tchooptip]

Yes it's true to a certain extent. A lot of the frustrations and problems that many farang have could be reduced by learning even a small bit of basic Thai. It doesn't solve everything of course, but it is not a coincidence that the biggest complainers with the most problems are usually the people who can barely even order a plate of khao pad on their own.

If God had wanted us to speak foreign languages, he'd have not given us fingers to point with

SC

Yesss good advice to the OP :-) if he cannot make himself understood properly he could point finger to something or better... to someone ! (Thai culture, Thai culture?????)

[Sateev]

All of you are dancing around the point, which is NOT about racism, but rather, about culturalism.

I am an unabashed 'culturist', i.e., I place various cultural traits in a hierarchy, according to their agreement with my own. I believe EVERYBODY does this to one extent or another. The epithet 'racist' really only comes into play when people fail to grasp the fact that racially alike people, on the average (but not exclusively), tend to cluster together, and emulate their predominate 'culture'

In America, blacks have their own cultures, a major one of which influences everybody's perception of black people by dint of media sensationalism. For the intellectually lazy, it's much easier to group them by race, than distinguish them by culture, hence 'racism' But expressing distaste for, say, guys wearing their pants below their asses, and doing the gangsta' walk, who may also be black, gets instantly labelled 'rascist'. Lazy people have their OWN culture...

I think most people want to take refuge among their own cultures, at the end of the day. Western people who move to places like Thailand are outliers in the scheme of things. Good for them. But the issues that arise between cultures, for instance, lack of consideration for others, unless their is some possibility of loss of face, vs. a culture where we are brought up to consider how our actions affect others, are bound to be problematic. And many of these cultural traits are deeply rooted, and cannot be easily ignored, at least by most people. Examples are too numerous to completely list, but Thai vs. Western driving habits come to mind, as well as queuing, public excretion, littering, noise pollution, etc.

It's all a trade, but not everyone can remain unaffected by these differences for all various cultures. They are not necessarily racists, but are, to one degree or another, culturalists.

Or at least that's how I see it.

[wooly]

Blimey if learning the Thai language was the answer to all the 'challenges' farangs face in this country; that would be fantastic; and the language schools would have a bonanza. Sadly it ain't that simple. I have been visiting, and investing in this country for thirty years and among my observations; which have formed my opinions, are the following.

1) As a nation the Thais are not over-keen on foreigners of any nationality.

2) Most don't want us to speak Thai because then we would understand their derogatory remarks about us.

3) As I understand it, from the Thais that I count as my friends, in truth the Thai language lacks subtleties of speech, so that it is sometimes even difficult for Thais speaking to each other to effectively communicate their actual thoughts and intentions.

4) Don't pooh-pooh the culture difference. It is very real, and IMHO almost impossible to understand/comprehend - and I don't see it being resolved any time soon.

There are more, but perhaps another time

If you think I am just another whinging farang - "who should go home, if you don't like it" then you are entitled to your opinion, as am I. My point is that I am a realist, and we are all influenced by our experiences. In my view Thailand deliberately makes it as difficult as possible for foreigners, with their increasing anti-farang laws, to live here. Which is a shame because it is a nice place to live; but I believe we all lose out because of the draconian nationalist attitude.

[TommoPhysicist]

I think most people want to take refuge among their own cultures,

Yep, you have it right, I really wanted to wind up married to a fat old bag my own age, no sex and play with my grandkids ....... how unfortunate for me I came to Thailand, married a woman half my age, and am busy producing more kids of my own.

Thanks for reminding of all I'm missing from my culture.

[transam]

I think most people want to take refuge among their own cultures,

Yep, you have it right, I really wanted to wind up married to a fat old bag my own age, no sex and play with my grandkids ....... how unfortunate for me I came to Thailand, married a woman half my age, and am busy producing more kids of my own.

Thanks for reminding of all I'm missing from my culture.

What about Real Ale. ?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

The reason I have not learned Thai is because although it would undoubtedly be in my best interests, it would not be in the interests of any Thai I meet (barring some tragic misunderstanding where emotions got the better of the situation and prevented a more sane resolution).

If someone can make the argument for how my speaking in Thai helps the Thais learn English, I'd love to reconsider. Of course, perhaps I'm wrong about it being in Thais' best interests to learn how to communicate with a few billion more of the ~7.2 billion of ~7.3 billion humans who will never learn what I'm sure is a superior language to English. I'm yet to hear the argument for learning English not being in the best interests of Thais. Has this argument been coherently made by someone, somewhere, at some time?

IMO, the main problem of the people who complain all the time is they are insecure. Their insecurity makes them aggressive. Their aggressivity creates conflict which make them even more insecure ... It's a never ending story

What an insightful post. Gave me something to think about.

Actually it's much more effective to learn Thai, but pretend you don't when it suits you.

I'm confused about how that could be more effective. I guess it would depend on your motive, but what's the purpose of the deception? To surreptitiously gather intelligence? To what end?

Every bi-lingual Thai I know does the reverse of this so brazenly. They think they're being crafty slipping into Thai when they want to say something they'd rather keep you in the dark about. But it's a bit like dropping your voice to a whisper, the ears of everyone around will instinctively twitch.

I doubt it's malicious, or very rarely if at all; because it seems they're not really doing deception so much as enjoying the withholding of information (I think). I imagine it's mostly relatively innocent & harmless (a little child-like perhaps, mischievous rather than anything malicious), but it can be annoying when everyone can speak in English only for those who can speak Thai to seamlessly alternate back and forth. Invariably, they'll be talking in Thai whilst chuckling at me or smiling in my direction (somewhat patronisingly, which is fine) whilst the other informs them of something they don't want me hearing.

I don't really get offended because people who get offended are emotionally insane and exploitable, but it can be exhausting or a little boring if they do it as routinely as they all seem determined to do. It's not really in anyone's best interests, but I've struggled to convince them of this fact; so I dunno, they're pretty bright so maybe it's a valuable or profitable ploy when used against the mean.

I think that you are one of those that looks at stuff through your own eyes and abilities and not thinking of others abilities, sadly.

Doesn't everyone do that? I thought that's why we have wars and conflict between humans when I'm to see a logical case made which holds up a war as an example of a "good war" (where the deaths of the humans and the injuries and the feuds and the material generated to be used to manipulate future generations into emotional hatred, etc...was worth the gains). Yet to hear of a single war that couldn't have been solved more optimally for both sides had they been emotionally sane and capable of determining a Pareto efficient compromise.

Sometimes evil men just need to pile up the bodies to feel powerful. Pretty sure the only way you can be one of those bodies is if you give them your power. Pretty sure the only way they can make that case convincingly is by tricking people into feeling the uniquely-clouded, emotionally-distorted perceptions they 'see' (which amount to nothing more than ludicrous illusions of Reality) is actually The Reality or a reality that another person can expect to see. Pretty sure FDR had some advice about fearing only fear that might have been wisdom that will never be surpassed in terms of sheer value. But what do I know...

Just look at the way problems are sorted in a Buddhist country, gun or a knife which is in total contradiction to Buddhism and yet its 80% or so practicing Buddhist country

Seems a bit like the way problems are sorted in a Christian country? I'm not actually sure whether Buddhists are Buddhists; but I know why I'm living here and don't want to go home. Christians in my country are very, very Christian. More Numbers 31 than anything in the creepily contradictory NT where a timeless God changed his mind about everything. Or not? Who knows really. I think that's the point innit? Show me a Christian who "hath not forsaken all that [they] hath" and I'll show you someone fraudulently utilising Jesus Christ's intellectual property against his specific Terms & Conditions for calling oneself His Disciple.

It's all Confidence Tricks no? And by all, I really do mean almost everything humans learn to say and do. We learn to say one thing and do another. How Biblical of us.

I'm pretty sure these guys are Buddhist monks in Seoul, S. Korea; settling a little power dispute in 'traditional' Zen manner. Ahem. Actually, this 2 min vid is awesome. Little disturbing, probably NSFW.

http://youtu.be/sBQau8bM-Vo

I imagine it's perhaps a little bit like how the Vatican sorts out it's hierarchy (if the Vatican's private confidential commercial-in-confidence classified need-to-know-only secret internal power struggles were a bit more...awesome).

[TommoPhysicist]

I think most people want to take refuge among their own cultures,

Yep, you have it right, I really wanted to wind up married to a fat old bag my own age, no sex and play with my grandkids ....... how unfortunate for me I came to Thailand, married a woman half my age, and am busy producing more kids of my own.

Thanks for reminding of all I'm missing from my culture.

What about Real Ale. ?

...and cricket?

OK, you got me with the real ale .... but cricket is on the TV.

[phl]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

[transam]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

OK, and a

PS. Where is JT ? hope he hasn't come a cropper crossing the road to save 5 bht eh.

Edited July 8, 2012 by transam

[phl]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

OK, and a

PS. Where is JT ? hope he hasn't come a cropper crossing the road to save 5 bht eh.

, good question, last time i saw him was in gay thread where i got a warning for not supporting his views on being gay

Edited July 8, 2012 by phl

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Let's be honest here, guys. Much (some might say most) of Thai culture absolutely sucks. It is everything wrong that modern humanity crawled and clawed away from a couple hundred years ago. There is nothing wonderful about Thai culture. It's selfish, boring, void of improvement or critical thought, lacks curiosity and is dangerously xenophobic.

As culture is a tool used to manipulate humans into thinking they want nothing to do with humans, I'm pretty sure every single culture is Self-less (if you think not caring about the welfare of those who can deliver happiness or misery directly to you is intelligent Selfishness, you're doing it wrong), boring, void of improvement or critical thought, lacking in curiosity and, by definition, xenophobic.

It's all about Us v Them. And inside the "Us", it's about Us v Them. And inside the "Us" that is inside the "Us"...you know how "Us" 'works'.

As for talking, the vast majority of them have nothing really interesting to say. Yes, I do speak Thai. Their thoughts and ideas are generally quite small and limited. This is true for "educated" ones, too. Not just the farmers.

Just telling it like it is.

No, you're telling it like your perception of it is. It's an easy mistake to make. And...you're wrong.

Everyone has something interesting to say. Perhaps you're one of those people who believes others should be entertaining you? I know a lot of Westerners like that. They always struck me as leachers, in a way. But I only speak of my family and friends.

There is not an opinion in the world that isn't worth hearing once from an individual. There is not an incorrect or unjustified opinion in the world that is worth hearing twice from an individual.

Back home, everyone I knew belonged to the latter type of individual. Here, I've met individuals that made me become the former type of individual.

I am Austrian so some xenophobic might be complete normal for me....

At the risk of immature Toddlers embarrassing themSelves with unfathomably idiotic snickering, I am Human so some xenophobic is never normal for me. I understand it's different for the exploited. They have 'impressed' me with their capacity for inhumane. I'm not entirely sure why humans are allowing them to live, but then it's unlikely I am going to do much about the imbeciles determined to see colour in humanity.

I work in a very large ("elite") multinational finance firm in Bangkok. ALL of them are these Thai-Chinese. Yes, they are certainly a cut above the "regular" Thais, however, they are LARGELY far from interesting people. They are mostly concerned with flaunting their status over other Thais.

As opposed to Americans, Australians and celebrity-obsessed Brits who are _not_ pleased when others suffer emotional pain as a result of Economic Apartheid?

[transam]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

OK, and a

PS. Where is JT ? hope he hasn't come a cropper crossing the road to save 5 bht eh.

, good question, last time i saw him was in gay thread where i got a warning for not supporting his views on being gay

AH, I got suspended for that, are you on the hi-so list.

[phl]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

OK, and a

PS. Where is JT ? hope he hasn't come a cropper crossing the road to save 5 bht eh.

, good question, last time i saw him was in gay thread where i got a warning for not supporting his views on being gay

AH, I got suspended for that, are you on the hi-so list.

i think i am on a no-so list now

[vijer]

It sure could help to know the language but it wouldn't solve all the problems.

IMO, the main problem of the people who complain all the time is they are insecure. Their insecurity makes them aggressive. Their aggressivity creates conflict which make them even more insecure ... It's a never ending story

What? That is even dumber than the original post.

As several posters have already pointed out ... we complain about blatant corruption, lack of ANY sensible safety laws, lack of ANY proper building regulations, especially in regards to electrical standards, plumbing standards, improper sanitation, poor education system, etc. It has nothing to do with being insecure. I complain in my own country too, not just here.

[TommoPhysicist]

As several posters have already pointed out ... we complain about blatant corruption, lack of ANY sensible safety laws, lack of ANY proper building regulations, especially in regards to electrical standards, plumbing standards, improper sanitation, poor education system, etc. It has nothing to do with being insecure. I complain in my own country too, not just here.

I quite like the corruption and lack of enforcement on safety laws.

I came here to avoid the nanny state, not try and bring it with me.

Why don't you move somewhere more to your liking?

[Kwasaki]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

" sense of humor " is that known on here as flamming.

[phl]

Well thread has been fun, so i have decided from now on i only to use Thaiglish. This way no one can complain that i do not speak Thai and no one can complain that they do not understand my English

So next time i meet a buddy, i will say "i my friend you" or "i tell you true jing jing" or "take care na"

PS. For those with no sense of humor no need to reply, for those with sense of humor, feel free to add a smiley

Transam, you can add 2 smiley's

" sense of humor " is that known on here as flamming.

shhhhhh