Why Do Thais Get Angry When Corrected On Their English?

[kerryk]

Also, "oriental" [sic] refers to things, not people and it is an offensive term when used to describe Asians. "Farang" is not offensive in the least.

I would say rubbish too except I don't say rubbish. I googled "oriental" and got the enclosed photo. I don't think oriental is offensive. I don't know anyone or any dictionary who thinks it is. Maybe it is a bit old fashioned and has been replaced by the work Asian. Me thinks you are a dumb kid. No, that's bad. I mean sheltered from knowledge young person.

Sorry Kerry, but Nomad is correct in this instance. The term "oriental" is very similar to the term "colored people." They were both used by Americans back in the day and were not considered particularly offensive. But they are considered mildly offensive now, although not as bad as some other racially charged words.

I already apologized 3 hours ago post #61. It is because I watch old Charlie Chan movies.

[Berkshire]

Also, "oriental" [sic] refers to things, not people and it is an offensive term when used to describe Asians. "Farang" is not offensive in the least.

I would say rubbish too except I don't say rubbish. I googled "oriental" and got the enclosed photo. I don't think oriental is offensive. I don't know anyone or any dictionary who thinks it is. Maybe it is a bit old fashioned and has been replaced by the work Asian. Me thinks you are a dumb kid. No, that's bad. I mean sheltered from knowledge young person.

Sorry Kerry, but Nomad is correct in this instance. The term "oriental" is very similar to the term "colored people." They were both used by Americans back in the day and were not considered particularly offensive. But they are considered mildly offensive now, although not as bad as some other racially charged words.

I already apologized 3 hours ago post #61. It is because I watch old Charlie Chan movies.

Got it. Just wanted to get my digs in....

[cooked]

The Op asks why Thais get angry....

I had two university educated, French girlfriends, one after another. The French have a somewhat chauvinistic attitude to their own language, maybe similar to the Thai attitude.

I got annoyed, when I was communicating well enough in French (despite mistakes, my interlocutor was participating in the conversation, not just looking at me bemusedly), when my girlfriend would jump in the middle of a phrase and correct my pronunciation, grammar or vocabulary. When asked why I looked annoyed, I sometimes got support from the guy I was talking to. I also got a little annoyed when I was told to pronounce German or English words as though they were French. (Anyone heard of a politician known as Madame Tach-AIR?)

I would think that correcting a Thai in the middle of a sentence might be a tad vexing for him as it was for me. One might even ask him if you might just help him out, waiting for him to finish?

I find that many of the threads on TV, interesting as they are, aren't really Thai threads at all, but are general comments on being a human being. Many of them, in addition, are answered as though everyone lives in Bangkok / Pattaya.

[Kilgore Trout]

Pointing out someone's race when there is no reason to is racist IHMO. If you have been in Thailand enough you know that they don't say "look at that guy in the red shirt" they say "look at the indian in the red shirt" or look at the falang in the red shirt.

As per the example; the girl didn't say to her mother "that guy speaks Thai well" or even "that foreigner speaks Thai well" it was "That falang (white person) speaks Thai well.

My point is; if I did that in my group of friends "look at that Indian over there" I would be criticized, ostrasized etc., but when Thais do it westerners accept it or even say its cute

Double Standards

Yes double standards, the ones you bring to Thailand, and the ones that are normal for here.

Being upset about is your choice.

I think you're missing the point or points I'm trying to make;

1) If you say discrimination or racism is wrong, then you have to be consistent; you can't say that when a westerner says something it is racist but when an Asian says it it is not.

2) Thais WILL NOT accept being treated or talked about as they do with foreigners/westerners; they get very offended if you lump them in the same category as Burmese, Laotian, or Cambodians. This comes from an upbringing that teaches Thais are superior to everyone else. Thais behave this way in Thailand AND when in a foreign country (in my experience). My point to the Thais is that you can't have it both ways; you either accept and treat everyone equally or if not, accept that people will think you are an a$$.

[Kilgore Trout]

The word "farang" is absolutely not an offensive word. Never has been, never will be. And anyone who thinks otherwise is an overly-sensitive, obtuse, close-minded, and wildly anal-retentive ignoramus. I hope I've gotten my point across.

Yea, if your point is that you are ignorant. As many posters have pointed out, it all depends on context.

Unless referring to a piece of fruit, gum etc. the word is either used in spite or ignorance.

[Berkshire]

I find that many of the threads on TV, interesting as they are, aren't really Thai threads at all, but are general comments on being a human being. Many of them, in addition, are answered as though everyone lives in Bangkok / Pattaya.

Very insightful comment, and so true. I think there are many here who find a need to bash the Thais so they can feel better about themselves. Somehow, they find solace in putting down the locals, which is a nice distraction from their otherwise miserable lot in life .

[Berkshire]

1) If you say discrimination or racism is wrong, then you have to be consistent; you can't say that when a westerner says something it is racist but when an Asian says it it is not.

Your thought process is so simplistic that it renders many of your examples inappropriate, out-of-context, and/or downright laughable. Pretty much everyone agrees that discrimination and racism is wrong, but your definition of what constitutes discrimination and racism is almost always wrong. Your constant preaching that the "farang" word is offensive has become tedious and pointless. No one is listening because you are flatout wrong.

As to your comment above, you can't apply one rule to every word for every situation. For example, if a black person in the US calls another black person the "N" word, it's not offensive. If a white person says it to a black person, it would be offensive. I'm not sure if you have the capacity to understand, but I thought I'd give it a shot nevertheless.

[canuckamuck]

Pointing out someone's race when there is no reason to is racist IHMO. If you have been in Thailand enough you know that they don't say "look at that guy in the red shirt" they say "look at the indian in the red shirt" or look at the falang in the red shirt.

As per the example; the girl didn't say to her mother "that guy speaks Thai well" or even "that foreigner speaks Thai well" it was "That falang (white person) speaks Thai well.

My point is; if I did that in my group of friends "look at that Indian over there" I would be criticized, ostrasized etc., but when Thais do it westerners accept it or even say its cute

Double Standards

Yes double standards, the ones you bring to Thailand, and the ones that are normal for here.

Being upset about is your choice.

I think you're missing the point or points I'm trying to make;

1) If you say discrimination or racism is wrong, then you have to be consistent; you can't say that when a westerner says something it is racist but when an Asian says it it is not.

Discrimination is wrong for me, because I hold to my own standards. I do not presume to hold nationals of another country to my standards.

2) Thais WILL NOT accept being treated or talked about as they do with foreigners/westerners; they get very offended if you lump them in the same category as Burmese, Laotian, or Cambodians. This comes from an upbringing that teaches Thais are superior to everyone else. Thais behave this way in Thailand AND when in a foreign country (in my experience). My point to the Thais is that you can't have it both ways; you either accept and treat everyone equally or if not, accept that people will think you are an a$$.

Yes Thais have some cultural traits that seem inconsistent. That is because stereotyping is openly accepted here, as well as delusions of superiority and an acceptance of class divisions. So what, they were here first.

You have a lot of work ahead of you to change any of this, but go for it eh?

Edited July 9, 2012 by canuckamuck

[Kilgore Trout]

1) If you say discrimination or racism is wrong, then you have to be consistent; you can't say that when a westerner says something it is racist but when an Asian says it it is not.

Your thought process is so simplistic that it renders many of your examples inappropriate, out-of-context, and/or downright laughable. Pretty much everyone agrees that discrimination and racism is wrong, but your definition of what constitutes discrimination and racism is almost always wrong. Your constant preaching that the "farang" word is offensive has become tedious and pointless. No one is listening because you are flatout wrong.

As to your comment above, you can't apply one rule to every word for every situation. For example, if a black person in the US calls another black person the "N" word, it's not offensive. If a white person says it to a black person, it would be offensive. I'm not sure if you have the capacity to understand, but I thought I'd give it a shot nevertheless.

Again, the word in itself is not offensive, but the context in which it is used.

Also, FYI; I have taught in all black schools in the US and if you want to see a black female teacher (or male for that matter) or administrator get really angry then watch them within earshot of one black kid calling another the "n" word (even with positive connotations). It is not accepted by respectable African Americans,

perhaps you think that all blacks in the US wear hoodies, smoke crack and are gang members but I assure you that is not the case.

PS. I assure you, some people are listening and do not agree with you that I am wrong, just judging by the number of positive notifications I have received.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Kilgore Trout

[Berkshire]

PS. I assure you, some people are listening and do not agree with you that I am wrong, just judging by the number of positive notifications I have received.

I don't doubt there are others like you. But how do you and your cohorts feel about the fact that the majority (Thais and non-Thais) think that you're barking up the wrong tree and have no intentions of changing how they use the word? Does it make you feel a little emasculated, perhaps?

[Kilgore Trout]

PS. I assure you, some people are listening and do not agree with you that I am wrong, just judging by the number of positive notifications I have received.

I don't doubt there are others like you. But how do you and your cohorts feel about the fact that the majority (Thais and non-Thais) think that you're barking up the wrong tree and have no intentions of changing how they use the word? Does it make you feel a little emasculated, perhaps?

Ever heard of the term "projection" in the psychological sense? I suggest you look it up.

I am able to express my feelings and discuss a matter without getting upset or as you say; feel emasculated. Can you say the same?

[overherebc]

Powder Puffs at ten paces. 8am tomorrow lads

[Berkshire]

PS. I assure you, some people are listening and do not agree with you that I am wrong, just judging by the number of positive notifications I have received.

I don't doubt there are others like you. But how do you and your cohorts feel about the fact that the majority (Thais and non-Thais) think that you're barking up the wrong tree and have no intentions of changing how they use the word? Does it make you feel a little emasculated, perhaps?

Ever heard of the term "projection" in the psychological sense? I suggest you look it up.

I am able to express my feelings and discuss a matter without getting upset or as you say; feel emasculated. Can you say the same?

Actually, I'm rather impressed by your ability to calmly discuss this topic. But as we're going hopelessly OT, I'll answer your question with a "yes."

[Kilgore Trout]

PS. I assure you, some people are listening and do not agree with you that I am wrong, just judging by the number of positive notifications I have received.

I don't doubt there are others like you. But how do you and your cohorts feel about the fact that the majority (Thais and non-Thais) think that you're barking up the wrong tree and have no intentions of changing how they use the word? Does it make you feel a little emasculated, perhaps?

Ever heard of the term "projection" in the psychological sense? I suggest you look it up.

I am able to express my feelings and discuss a matter without getting upset or as you say; feel emasculated. Can you say the same?

Actually, I'm rather impressed by your ability to calmly discuss this topic. But as we're going hopelessly OT, I'll answer your question with a "yes."

Good, As I do respect your right to express your opinion even though I don't agree with it....we are in agreement in our disagreement

[cooked]

Ok. CAN we get back to the topic now please, or close it?

[overherebc]

Ok. CAN we get back to the topic now please, or close it?

Just my idea how Iron and Irn should be used.

Irn.docIrn.doc.

[mrjohndub]

Agreed, Cooked.

I've got two possible explanations, and they're quite simple really:

First, many Thai are aware that English is pronounced many ways and are assuming their pronunciation passes muster. They are either dismayed that it might not, or that the listener feels that it does not.

Second, many Thai believe that English is an inherently lenient language when it comes to minor mistakes in terms of errors and cutting corners. They have effectively communicated using similar technique in the past and are dismayed that it doesn't work every time.

I rather think I'd feel the same way.

Not that it's completely on-topic, but since it's being discussed, I hate it when people patronize or condescend me about my language abilities. Unfortunately, I am oft to assume that's what's happening when in fact it's usually innocuous.

[edited for spelling]

Edited July 9, 2012 by mrjohndub

[NomadJoe]

Rubbish post. English is the most widely used language in the world, and America is an immigrant country. It's an official language in 52 countries spoken by 2 billion people. Thai has just 70 million people.

Also, "oriental" [sic] refers to things, not people and it is an offensive term when used to describe Asians. "Farang" is not offensive in the least. And it's "speaks English so well." So I think you've got the answer to your second question right there.

You don't know much about Thailand if you think the word "farang" can't be offensive.

The point is not about language; its about pointing out that someone is of a different race.

Again, double standards. If you are going to accept racist behavior, you have to accept it from everyone; not just Thais

I didn't say farang couldn't be offensive. Many words can be offensive that inherently aren't. It depends on the context. In the context as it was used towards me it clearly was not offensive, thus I wasn't offended.

The point was not about someone being of a different race, it was about native Thai speakers complimenting a non-native Thai speaker. You saw racism where there is none probably because, it would appear, you are racist.

Pointing out someone's race when there is no reason to is racist IHMO. If you have been in Thailand enough you know that they don't say "look at that guy in the red shirt" they say "look at the indian in the red shirt" or look at the falang in the red shirt.

As per the example; the girl didn't say to her mother "that guy speaks Thai well" or even "that foreigner speaks Thai well" it was "That falang (white person) speaks Thai well.

My point is; if I did that in my group of friends "look at that Indian over there" I would be criticized, ostrasized etc., but when Thais do it westerners accept it or even say its cute

Double Standards

There is much debate about the definition of "farang." I agree with the popular position that it is not in and of itself a racial term and usually used to simply mean "foreigner." even if the people it describes happen to be the same race. Hence we are a "foreigner" to all of Asia which distinguishes us from Asian foreigners in Thailand. "It is generally believed that the word farang originated with the Indo-Persian word farangi, meaning foreigner." - Wiki. It's also the name given to Guava fruit because it was introduced to them by foreigners. The word farang is seen in a lot of foods in Thailand. Potatoes are man farang. Cilantro is phak chi farang, chewing gum is mak farang.

Think of it this way. "Farang" doesn't mean "white person." it means "foreigner" that isn't Asian, African or Middle Eastern (Although middle easterners are still sometimes called farang)

The Thai speaking does not have race in his or her mind when they speak it. It just so happens that most foreigners in Thailand are white. The fact that other Asian nationalities are broken up according to nationality is more evidence that Thai's don't make the distinction along racial lines: "Chin, Yippoon, Kemphuche, Burmese", etc. These are all the same race, Asian. Blacks are referred to as "farang dahm" and I am pretty sure that doesn't mean "Black white guy."

[kerryk]

Joe you owe it to yourself to read some of the 1694 threads on Thai Visa on the meaning of the word Farang. My personal favorite is the 220 threads on; if it should be pronounced Farang or Falang. JT was stellar on that one. Next to Sinsot threads, "The meaning of the word Farang" is a close second for sheer volume of words written.

[Johnniey]

The Thai speaking does not have race in his or her mind when they speak it. It just so happens that most foreigners in Thailand are white. The fact that other Asian

nationalities are broken up according to nationality is more evidence that Thai's don't make the distinction along racial lines: "Chin, Yippoon, Kemphuche, Burmese", etc. These are all the same race, Asian. Blacks are referred to as "farang dahm" and I am pretty sure that doesn't mean "Black white guy."

I disagree - the Thai often has race on his mind when saying 'farang'.

Most foreigners in Thailand are not white.

Jeen, Yeepoon etc are all the same race? The human race.

Thais use many terms for black people but very rarely 'farang dam'.

[Muggi1968]

One thing I find funny:

I am from Denmark. I have been using english professional for 30 years, working in most european contries and USA. Many times for long period of time in the UK.

Many times, I can not understand what the XDE@#%$ people here write in english.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Muggi1968

[cooked]

One thing I find funny:

I am from Denmark. I have been using english professional for 30 years, working in most european contries and USA. Many times for long period of time in the UK.

Many times, I can not understand what the XDE@#%$ people here write in english.

ha ha I am English and I have the same problem!

[Muggi1968]

One thing I find funny:

I am from Denmark. I have been using english professional for 30 years, working in most european contries and USA. Many times for long period of time in the UK.

Many times, I can not understand what the XDE@#%$ people here write in english.

ha ha I am English and I have the same problem!

I think most people here are from New zeeland or autralia.

My point:

Does it realy matter ?

[cooked]

Not to me it doesn't, no, but you always get people correcting mistakes /typos on this forum. I get your point: it's communication that is important, after all, the language of love is universal, if people can't understand imperfect English, how are they ever going to learn Thai? (not that they would want to...)

[Muggi1968]

Not to me it doesn't, no, but you always get people correcting mistakes /typos on this forum. I get your point: it's communication that is important, after all, the language of love is universal, if people can't understand imperfect English, how are they ever going to learn Thai? (not that they would want to...)

I have a very positive feedback when I correct English. But I alway start with "You speak very well englich. Easy to under stand but....." (In thai).

And because of this, more and more Thais correct me, instead of just accepting my thai mistakes.

[NomadJoe]

Joe you owe it to yourself to read some of the 1694 threads on Thai Visa on the meaning of the word Farang. My personal favorite is the 220 threads on; if it should be pronounced Farang or Falang. JT was stellar on that one. Next to Sinsot threads, "The meaning of the word Farang" is a close second for sheer volume of words written.

Yeah I have read, even participated in some of those threads. People have some interesting notions of what the word means. I do not consider the ThaiVisa posters to be either educated on the topic nor representative of the overall population of foriegners living in Thailand. Most the foreigners I meet in Thailand appear far more educated and reasonable than the majority of Thaivisa posters. Bit I do cringe every time a mate of mine, here 10 years now and speaks Thai quite well, says "Fuh-Rang" even though he admits it's incorrect. Ugg. Correct transliteration is "farang." Correct pronunciation is "FUH-long."

Edited July 9, 2012 by NomadJoe

[NomadJoe]

One thing I find funny:

I am from Denmark. I have been using english professional for 30 years, working in most european contries and USA. Many times for long period of time in the UK.

Many times, I can not understand what the XDE@#%$ people here write in english.

ha ha I am English and I have the same problem!

American here, and completely agree. And it's not the British terms/slang. Between Monty Python, Douglas Adams, Red Dwarf, Top Gear, BBC, and my British mates, I think I've picked up most of those. I referred to a girl as "homely" to a couple of them the other night and got blank stares. I guess that is an American term?

[overherebc]

All these posts and unless I've missed it there isn't one mention of the word enunciate.

Nomad, not sure of country of origin of homely but at least it's better than saying she has a "lived in face"

[Kilgore Trout]

The Thai speaking does not have race in his or her mind when they speak it. It just so happens that most foreigners in Thailand are white. The fact that other Asian

nationalities are broken up according to nationality is more evidence that Thai's don't make the distinction along racial lines: "Chin, Yippoon, Kemphuche, Burmese", etc. These are all the same race, Asian. Blacks are referred to as "farang dahm" and I am pretty sure that doesn't mean "Black white guy."

I disagree - the Thai often has race on his mind when saying 'farang'.

Most foreigners in Thailand are not white.

Jeen, Yeepoon etc are all the same race? The human race.

Thais use many terms for black people but very rarely 'farang dam'.

I've never heard the term "farang dam" before; I could see someone calling someone that if they knew the person was from a western country; but I assure you that term is rarely used if ever. Black people are not "farangs," full stop.

Also, Thais think and act in very racial terms; if you don't know this then you don't have much experience here, which clearly you don't. This is not a slur in any respect; just stating the facts.

[Kilgore Trout]

One thing I find funny:

I am from Denmark. I have been using english professional for 30 years, working in most european contries and USA. Many times for long period of time in the UK.

Many times, I can not understand what the XDE@#%$ people here write in english.

ha ha I am English and I have the same problem!

American here, and completely agree. And it's not the British terms/slang. Between Monty Python, Douglas Adams, Red Dwarf, Top Gear, BBC, and my British mates, I think I've picked up most of those. I referred to a girl as "homely" to a couple of them the other night and got blank stares. I guess that is an American term?

The term "minger" comes to mind