New Wrinkle: Probability Sin Sod Return Promise Will Be Broken?

[catbird]

How much is involved here? Is it a relatively small amount that makes it irrelevant if you don't get it back? Or is it an amount that you are fearful of disclosing?

The fact that you are even concerned about the possibility of a broken promise tells me it's the latter.

Quite frankly, what a state of affairs that five months before marriage you are worrying about getting your sin sod back.

There's something wrong here.......what is it OP?

Sure, something is wrong. The whole larger picture is under reconsideration. Most of it is too personal a matter to discuss here, but yeah, there it is.

If this is the case, then why are you asking about Sin Sot, rather than first of all resolving your concerns? Just me but Sin Sot,would be the last on my list if I had serious issues to be addressed prior to committing to my future partner.

Those other concerns are not the focus of the thread. I asked about Sin Sot here, because this is a venue for seeking and sharing information. I resolve the other concerns in real life, not on this venue, because real life is where those sensitive concerns get resolved.

[villagefarang]

Those other concerns are not the focus of the thread. I asked about Sin Sot here, because this is a venue for seeking and sharing information. I resolve the other concerns in real life, not on this venue, because real life is where those sensitive concerns get resolved.

Real life is where Sin Sot is resolved as well.

[nocturn]

Catbird, i think it may be time to change seats.

[catbird]

I realize that my question seemed dryly antiseptic or material against the backdrop of larger possible issues (that were not the subject this particular thread). My original question was premised on the idea that most important matters are ones of culture, love and trust, not matters of money. The question was raised not to save money "for me", but to prevent relationship damage, relationship loss and conflict.

But my interest in the question in starting to diminish. For those who might be sweating every detail, I suppose I must say that when big surprises come up due to cultural differences, they might be mistaken for, or mistkenly spin into, matters of trust. Look, I promised myself to wouldn't go off topic, but there I went and did it.

I am finding the book by Pirazzzi and Vasant very useful. If I ever meet someone in my shoes, I will tell him that cultural diffences can be (both overestimated and) underestimated, and do not walk, run, go read one of these books right away for accellerated knowledge of possible cultural differences.

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird

[catbird]

Those other concerns are not the focus of the thread. I asked about Sin Sot here, because this is a venue for seeking and sharing information. I resolve the other concerns in real life, not on this venue, because real life is where those sensitive concerns get resolved.

Real life is where Sin Sot is resolved as well.

I like that very much. That answer has big heart. No harm in seeking general information, though. I can see now my question was too ambitious, too big in scope for anyone to answer. But the fact that nobody gave very pessimistic answers (on the main point) gives me, in effect, useful perspective.

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird

[catbird]

Catbird, i think it may be time to change seats.

I like that idea. But I don't know what it means. :-)

[TommoPhysicist]

That answer has big heart.

Best not to use 'bar girl' talk. As a foreigner avoid ever saying anything like 'big heart', 'good heart', etc.

My advice ...... refuse to pay anything at all. You've already drunk the milk, no need to buy the cow.

Edited July 13, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[rgs2001uk]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Can sin sod be in the form of long term bonds purchased in the wife's name?

I should start a new thread for this question.

But, I wonder if it would be humiliating to offer the sin sod be in form of long terms bonds purchased in the name of the fiance. It serves the visceral function of flashing "money capability" around to prove she can be taken care of, and instead of cash that disappears, it is long term savings that really does help the future. Being in the name of the wife, it should please the family (it is not returned to the man per se) but yet, being in the name of the wife, it also supports the marriage, which would be consistent with Western tradition, in which the wedding gifts go the those getting married, not to parents.

"Can sin sod be in the form of long term bonds purchased in the wife's name?'

Short answer, YES.

Long answer, has the G/F ever mentioned sin sot, or is this something you are aware of and may be jumping the gun?

Best you sit down and have a long chat with your G/F about this subject.

Will the sin sot be returned? I dont know, are there marriages where it is returned, yes, are there cases where it isnt yes.

Each marriage will be different, many times there will be a pile of cash on display, this is mainly to satisfy the local gossips and to gain face.

But when you get down to the nitty gritty, noone knows what takes place behing closed doors or what was discussed before hand.

Let the parents keep the sin sot, but let them pay all wedding costs is one option.

Let them keep the sin sot but tell them there will be no monthly SS cheques.

How much are you being hit up for?

One example I know of, university educated with degree, senior gov't position, never before married, no kids in tow, 300k.

[TommoPhysicist]

One point nobody has brought up so far. Why even have a village wedding?

It has no benefit to you, is just a big brag for her parents, and a free party for people you don't know and she probably doesn't like.

Just do the real Amphur wedding, almost zero cost and gets you a one year married person extension of stay.

That's what I did, but then I'm a cheap bastard.

[transam]

One point nobody has brought up so far. Why even have a village wedding?

It has no benefit to you, is just a big brag for her parents, and a free party for people you don't know and she probably doesn't like.

Just do the real Amphur wedding, almost zero cost and gets you a one year married person extension of stay.

That's what I did, but then I'm a cheap bastard.

BUT, the village wedding means a lot to your wife . Don't tell me it doesn't cos it does. She may say it doesn't to you, but it does.

[GarryP]

It is not always returned. A close Thai friend married a distant relative of my wife. He had been promised that the sin sod would be returned and planned the wedding around that understanding. In the end the promise was broken and as a result he started married life in debt. Even his new wife was pissed off at her mother. And that was Thai on Thai, without foreign involvement.

So will it be broken? I do not know. I do not know your fiancee's parents, but there is the possibility that it may be broken. Also, don't forget that if it is broken, you will be starting off married life with bad feelings towards the in-laws and if your fiancee is very close to her parents that does not bode well for married life.

[TommoPhysicist]

One point nobody has brought up so far. Why even have a village wedding?

It has no benefit to you, is just a big brag for her parents, and a free party for people you don't know and she probably doesn't like.

Just do the real Amphur wedding, almost zero cost and gets you a one year married person extension of stay.

That's what I did, but then I'm a cheap bastard.

BUT, the village wedding means a lot to your wife . Don't tell me it doesn't cos it does. She may say it doesn't to you, but it does.

My wife already had one of those with her Thai (deceased) husband, no need for a second party.

Does it mean a lot to her? Why would I care, marriage in Thailand is BUSINESS not FEELINGS.

Edited July 13, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[DrTuner]

Well this is very easy. Assume getting nothing back and adjust the sum accordingly. Stress level back to happy happy.

[DrTuner]

Why even have a village wedding?

I found the experience very interesting. A huge contrast to the western white dress-church-cake-thingy. So... out of curiosity ?

[TommoPhysicist]

Why even have a village wedding?

I found the experience very interesting. A huge contrast to the western white dress-church-cake-thingy. So... out of curiosity ?

Cheaper to attend someone else's village wedding (out of curiosity).

[DrTuner]

Why even have a village wedding?

I found the experience very interesting. A huge contrast to the western white dress-church-cake-thingy. So... out of curiosity ?

Cheaper to attend someone else's village wedding (out of curiosity).

Well.. the experience isn't quite the same, I'd guess. Unless the groom gets so drunk the day before that you'll have to take his place

[Pinot]

I don't know the answer. I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm giving her 250k. I've told her 50k for the wedding and 200k for sinsot. That's the budget. Absolutely, no more.

She's never been married, no children. No former boyfriends! A very nice, middle class, rice farm family that I have nothing but respect for. If the sinsot is returned, that will be nice but I honestly don't care. I'm not rich. That's a lot of money, but that's what I've allocated to the wedding.

I'm looking forward to it.

A friend told me about a Thai wedding where they expected 100 guests. 1000 showed up. Wouldn't bother me. She has her budget. Talks about it all the time. I plan on showing up with an empty wallet, the ATM card in the safe and enjoying myself.

[transam]

I don't know the answer. I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm giving her 250k. I've told her 50k for the wedding and 200k for sinsot. That's the budget. Absolutely, no more.

She's never been married, no children. No former boyfriends! A very nice, middle class, rice farm family that I have nothing but respect for. If the sinsot is returned, that will be nice but I honestly don't care. I'm not rich. That's a lot of money, but that's what I've allocated to the wedding.

I'm looking forward to it.

A friend told me about a Thai wedding where they expected 100 guests. 1000 showed up. Wouldn't bother me. She has her budget. Talks about it all the time. I plan on showing up with an empty wallet, the ATM card in the safe and enjoying myself.

No former boy friends eh ? I am the same, never EVER had ANY girl friends.

[Bung]

What a strange world we live in where we have to pay to marry someone. Here it is always about money. Thai or Foreigner....and face.

What a way to start a marriage. Worrying about the trust with money. The longer I stay here the less I want to get involved with a Thai girl and all the baggage that comes with that.

[catbird]

That answer has big heart.

Best not to use 'bar girl' talk. As a foreigner avoid ever saying anything like 'big heart', 'good heart', etc.

My advice ...... refuse to pay anything at all. You've already drunk the milk, no need to buy the cow.

Yikes, language. I don't know that world. Yikes, assumptions.

[catbird]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Can sin sod be in the form of long term bonds purchased in the wife's name?

I should start a new thread for this question.

But, I wonder if it would be humiliating to offer the sin sod be in form of long terms bonds purchased in the name of the fiance. It serves the visceral function of flashing "money capability" around to prove she can be taken care of, and instead of cash that disappears, it is long term savings that really does help the future. Being in the name of the wife, it should please the family (it is not returned to the man per se) but yet, being in the name of the wife, it also supports the marriage, which would be consistent with Western tradition, in which the wedding gifts go the those getting married, not to parents.

"Can sin sod be in the form of long term bonds purchased in the wife's name?'

Short answer, YES.

Long answer, has the G/F ever mentioned sin sot, or is this something you are aware of and may be jumping the gun?

Best you sit down and have a long chat with your G/F about this subject.

Will the sin sot be returned? I dont know, are there marriages where it is returned, yes, are there cases where it isnt yes.

Each marriage will be different, many times there will be a pile of cash on display, this is mainly to satisfy the local gossips and to gain face.

But when you get down to the nitty gritty, noone knows what takes place behing closed doors or what was discussed before hand.

Let the parents keep the sin sot, but let them pay all wedding costs is one option.

Let them keep the sin sot but tell them there will be no monthly SS cheques.

How much are you being hit up for?

One example I know of, university educated with degree, senior gov't position, never before married, no kids in tow, 300k.

Wow, awesome information. A couple of those options might fit well with our case. As I said, her family told her they would return it to me, and since that is already on the table, I can see the option of letting it be kept to pay for the wedding, but letting them keep some balance in their favor, since I have no objection to that. To the question, the figure in play is about 1/3rd of the figure you note above.

My primary worry is not the level of money, but rather, the complexity and unpredictability around it. The issues of long term matters of money (how our marrige relates to her family) are probably more significant in the aggregate.

[1weatherman]

If Catbird is still around and doesn't know about changing his seat, it's an idiom, as in "he's in the catbird seat". A phrase used to describe an enviable position. It is an older usage type saying from on older time. Am I old? As for your topic, I do not have an answer nor do I plan on finding out. A fool and his money are soon parted....

[tingtongfarang]

I begin to question why western culture and the idea that the brides parents pay for the wedding and the honey moon is never taken into consideration by thais.

[aussiep]

I have been to a couple of Thai weddings.

I seem to remember that guists give presents of money.

Who is going to get this?

Maybe you should lower the sin sod a bit lower to allow for this.

aussiep

[rijb]

Villagefarang gave you the best advice and you're too full of yourself to try to understand it. I'm from the U.S. and have been with my wife for almost 40 years. If you're serious about spending the rest of your life with this woman, you need to make up your own culture of respect, trust and lots of compromising. Do not blindly accept all the nuances of each other's culture. You're marrying her, not her family. If both of you can't get your head around that, walk away now!

Here's what I gleaned from your thread so far. But, I can't be sure because I think you try to write above your education.

a: They want 100,000 baht (about $3,000 U.S.). They'll use some of it to pay for the wedding. And maybe they'll give you some back. Give them the cash, tell them to keep it, and stop blabbering about long-term bonds.

b: Or they want $100,000 U.S. Tell them to go to hell!

If you were my son, I'd slap you. If your fiancé was my daughter, I'd be very worried.

Edited July 15, 2012 by rijb

[ozyjon]

"She repeatedly says "the right thing" as good symbolism at least, by saying she isn't marrying me for my money, and she has a good record in her observable behavior."

You live in the US, you've never lived here, you've known her for 4 years but not actually spend more than a few weeks together. Oh dear, this is becoming a story I've often heard before.

Lets go with the symbolism then. Tell her she is quite correct in her belief that symbolism is fine, and as an example you will give a symbolic 'sin sod' of $500. Then you will find out how symbolic she becomes. Tell her you will lease some land for 30 years (quite legal for a foreigner) and build a house for you both, with a legal instrument called an infrastruct (?) so you are protected in Law and cannot be ejected. If she is fine with that, then consider things further. I suspect she will not be fine with that! But, for sure, you will know your own position better.

This answer is useful by offering an option I hadn't thought of.

I can note that in 4 years, she never asked me for a penny, and proactively volunteered to share expenses of my visit.

Having said that, I am reading the book by Pirazzi and Vasant on topics including how the money-love mix really is different in Thailand, including the money burdens of husbands, including Thai men. And I have read forums in which it looked like the women, under family and cultural pressure, seemed to extort piles of money from their husband. If a guy doesn't know what he is getting into, it might always look like foul play.

I am not asking anyone to presume to know what will happen in my case.

Rather, I give details of my case to invite estimates of general probability over large numbers of cases. Of course, any one instance is impossible to predict.

A cynic reading horror stories would seem to suggest that *most* men who receive the "money return promise" get deceived.

I consider Thailand like a casino,, whatever money i take in i expect to walk out without it, in saying that the gambling golden rule, don't bet what you can't afford to lose, i did that in Thailand and after losing about 1million 500 thousand baht i decided to act poor ( built a house got married (not registered the marriage or had children)) then decided i needed to get out as the money river never stopped flowing to the family, now, i'm very well off with regular income from investments but i told my darling wife that we had spent all the money i had and that i had no more money, the next day her family kicked me out of the house and village,, best day of my life. About the sin-sot i whinged i had money problems and we agreed that i would pay mama (who was keeping all the money $500) a monthly allowance and that was agreed to, as i was kicked out guess what NO MONEY, you can try that one if you like because in Thailand there is no such word as LEND once it's handed over it's gone forever.

[2unique]

Did they explicitly say the money would be returned to you and in what format? If later in life they turn around and say it's being held in trust for their daughter or even returned to their daughter in case you turn out to be an undesirable would they be correct in assuming this was the understanding on their part.

IMHO 200k is a 100k too much. A professional marriage broker employed by the groom's family would tear even that 100k apart and that's why they're hired but no one would care to tell you of their existence. In a lot of Thai on Thai weddings in Bangkok the broker haggles the sin sot. Your biggest problem is your "farangness" expected to provide a big 'un to keep up with the Schmidt and Jones' even though every Somchai will think you're a mug!

In the end you'll be respected for knowing the value of things and despised for not giving the biggest amount ever so don't give in to peer pressure do your own thing and show through your future deeds that you are more than worthy. Be there for the duration, keep the money in the relationship, don't be cheap but don't pay over the odds and that way you'll get her and her in- laws respect.

Sent from Android, please excuse errors in type or judgement.

[belg]

just ask yourself: would you pay the parents of your soon to be wife, if both of you are western in a western country?

the answer would obviously be ....

[LucidLucifer]

I begin to question why western culture and the idea that the brides parents pay for the wedding and the honey moon is never taken into consideration by thais.

That's always been my point too, you beat me to raising it.

Tradition and culture works both ways.

[pigeonjake]

your better of keeping the sin sod payment in your bank because believe me, you will be asked for it,

what im trying to say is if you give it to them it will just go on stupid things to show off,

then when its gone and the roof leaks,that will be down to you, when gran ma is ill, that too will be down to you, tractor broke that will be down to you,

im not a cheep charlie, i did up there old house to make it a good standerd, i told my wife that was it ive helped them, now its up to them, i still have to work to get money, so i expect your father to get out the hamock to work too,

we have a small pig farm and mama helps my wife when im away, we pay her 10% of what we take a month, she is very happy and my wife is happy that her and mama work together,

so in a way i am helping mama, but she is helping us and she loves it,

you keep the money my freind, they will get it off you one way or another, when my wifes uncle was in hospital,bless him he passed away and i did like him very hard worker, i took everyone to the hospital at least once every day twice most days, and its over 100k round trip, not once did anyone say here is some money for oil,,,,lol

you have a lot to learn my freind,, have a good think,

jake, a very happy married man