Canadian Sisters Deaths: Probe Finds More Information But No Clues

[Thailion]

They should check for Laburnum. All parts of the plant are poisonous and it's notoriously hard to detect, if I remember correctly. An acute poisoning can be lethal and cause vomiting and severe diarrhea. There's two species in that family, but both are native to Europe. There's a third species, the one in Asia, that some people count to the Laburnum family, others don't. It is poisonous, too, and it's quite common in Asia and goes by the common names "Golden Shower" or "Golden-Chain Tree".

Last I knew a "Golden Shower" was not lethal although it could cause vomiting and diarrhea if swallowed....

[redroo]

I gues we will hafto wait ....

for the next few victim's.

the islands too small for so many people.

there's hardly any space left .

were does all the garbage & sewerage go ?

there's rats everywhere...

[Unkomoncents]

Their deaths, by apparent poisoning, were quickly branded as mysterious as local authorities failed to provide the media with quick, convenient and clear identification as to what caused the deaths.

No, they failed to provide even remotely plausible explanations (mushrooms, etc.) in a series of undisciplined statements to the media.

The public health aspect of the investigation focuses on possible food poisoning, contaminated water or any communicable disease that may have spread on Phi Phi, Dr Pasakorn explained.

They keep giving this guy the cases of foreigners who are mysteriously poisoned in their rooms, and he goes on investigating this remarkable disease/contamination that seems to only affect foreigners. Sounds legit to me!

Edited July 10, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[chuang]

Have lived in Thailand for a few years and receive the updates to thaivisa daily, this is my first comment due I find most of the comments are from people who dont really want to live here or use the fourm to moan! Come on guys we all live here for a reason, or why not go home and live in our fantastic Western countries!

You really hit the nails on the head.....it's been a long time farangs here are being rightfully castigated..

[marquis22]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses. The chemical tocin that caused the deaths dissipates when exposed to the environment inside the body. This results in there being little or no trace of the chemical in the bodies.

Starting in 2009, hotels in Thailand started to experience problems with westerners coming to Thailand unknowing carrying bedbugs. The bedbugs soon started to rake havoc in some hotels that primarily catered to westerners and they took measures to eradicate these pests from their hotel mattresses. In most cases a proper chemical was applied and the directions were followed. However, in some cases the hotel employees took extreme measures by over applying the chemicals and did not follow directions such as to take the mattresses outside to air out during and after the application of these chemicals.

The end result was transference of the chemical from the mattresses via contact with the skin of the victims. Even then in most cases when the victims became ill they and left before they had enough exposure to kill them. Often they wrote it off as food poisoning and just moved on.

In these cases in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, five people survived after being hospitalized and so far as we can now confirm 11 people have died with the possibility of three other deaths from 2009 in other cities that could be related. The information on these deaths can be found with a little time making few Internet searches.

Source please re. Westerners bringing bedbugs to Thailand in 2009.

Regardless where the bedbugs originated from, surely Scientist can investigate or experiment on the chemicals used to spray bed that are used to kill bedbugs?. It seems to me the hotels are not confessing up that they have used the chemicals or in what dilutions. Can't the authorities interrogate the hotel owners and workers and find out in what proportions the chemicals are used in the spraying for bedbugs?

[saroq]

I have to agree with the poster who said maybe he had been watching to many forensic shows where they solve these things.

People can be down rite stupid. The show's are written from a death where they all ready knew the causes of a death then they wrote the show to make it look like a mystery.

In Chiang Mai the World Health Organization was involved and they could not come up with a answer. A American lady become sick but managed to get back to Seattle where they have state of the art medical science and they could not say what it was.

But here we are in Thailand mostly expats thinking every thing is a cover up because they did not announce the cause ten minutes after the event.

Grow up people there are people dying all over the world dying from causes that at this point in time medical science can not give a reason from.

And we expect Thailand to be have all the answers. As I said People can be incredibly stupid.

And I don't mean because they don't know they don't know every thing there is to know. I mean because they think they know every thing there is to know.

I wonder how many tourists die mysteriously in resort accommodation in the US, Canada, the UK, Germany etc. I wonder if it'd be business as usual if there were a series of similarly mysterious deaths in those countries? Yes, some people are incredibly stupid aren't they. Nothing amiss here in the LOS.

[ezadventurer]

I have to agree with the poster who said maybe he had been watching to many forensic shows where they solve these things.

People can be down rite stupid. The show's are written from a death where they all ready knew the causes of a death then they wrote the show to make it look like a mystery.

In Chiang Mai the World Health Organization was involved and they could not come up with a answer. A American lady become sick but managed to get back to Seattle where they have state of the art medical science and they could not say what it was.

But here we are in Thailand mostly expats thinking every thing is a cover up because they did not announce the cause ten minutes after the event.

Grow up people there are people dying all over the world dying from causes that at this point in time medical science can not give a reason from.

And we expect Thailand to be have all the answers. As I said People can be incredibly stupid.

And I don't mean because they don't know they don't know every thing there is to know. I mean because they think they know every thing there is to know.

You are really going to defend the authorities on this and use the Chiang Mai incidents as an example? Perhaps the reason for the accusations has more to do with the Thai track record on investigating deaths and mysterious illnesses here. Your proof that an American returned from Chiang Mai and the hospital could not find the cause of the illness is a ridiculous comparison. Let's examine this another way. Let's say a hotel in America had several deaths and several illnesses like they had in Chiang Mai. What would be the actions by those authorities? How about these actions:

- The hotel would be shut down. Did this happen in Thailand? Nope. The owner was related to a political figure in Chiang Mai and the hotel was allowed to continue running without any concern for future visitors.

- The press would have prominent articles on the situation and mounting pressure on the authorities to solve the case. Did this happen in Thailand? Nope. Most Thais were unaware of this incident for months after the situation until it was really too late to conduct a proper investigation.

- There would have been a group of teams investigating the individuals who became sick and following up on what they had done in the days leading up to the illness. Again, the hotel would have been closed since statistically this anomally could not be considered a coincidence. Proper tests would have been done on the people and rooms and just like the forensic shows you see on TV, this case would have been solved much earlier.

- Someone would have been held responsible and repercussions would have caused others in the hotel industry to take note and hopefully prevent this occurrence from happening in their establishment. Media coverage would have added additional economical impact to the owner's business and any other hotels they may have owned.

So please refrain from commenting on the inability of a lone hospital in the US from being able to determine the cause of all the deaths and illnesses in Chiang Mai after examining a single patient.

I do like Thailand and have made a decision to stay here regardless of these negative aspects. With that said, Thailand should take measures to improve their public health response. My response was not to add to the well thought out comments by some and knee jerk idiotic comments by others about the inept public authorities, but rather to point out your silly defense of these public officials. CSI is a dream fantasy. Thai investigation is a horror story.

Edited July 10, 2012 by ezadventurer

[happynthailand]

Golden - Chain Tree: Laburnum seed can poison anyone who mistakes the seeds for peas.

The yellow flowers are responsible for the old poetic name 'golden chain tree' (also spelled golden chaintree or goldenchain tree).

All parts of the plant are poisonous, and can be lethal if consumed in excess. Symptoms of laburnum poisoning may include intense sleepiness, vomiting, convulsive movements, coma, slight frothing at the mouth and unequally dilated pupils. In some cases, diarrhea is very severe, and at times the convulsions are markedly tetanic. The main toxin in the plant is cytisine, a nicotinic receptor agonist. It is used as a food plant by the larvae of some Lepidoptera species, including the buff-tip.

[EyesWideOpen]

To be fair, forensic results can take a while weeks into months depending on tests being done! My guess is not many people who comment here have medical training. Sure understand the family wanting answers but let the process work its way thorugh, and no doubt they will keep pressure on in the hope of finding out what did happen. As I hope.

Have lived in Thailand for a few years and receive the updates to thaivisa daily, this is my first comment due I find most of the comments are from people who dont really want to live here or use the fourm to moan! Come on guys we all live here for a reason, or why not go home and live in our fantastic Western countries!

Strange point of view..... So 12 or 13 tourists have died mysteriously in hotel rooms, and the Thai government has no idea why. Not only that , but in the case of the Downtown Inn did everything possible to obstruct finding of the truth. And if a long term expat such as myself dares to question these deaths, I am supposed to go back to my home country ???? Zzzzzzz.....

Get a grip and reset your moral compass....

Strike a bit close to home for me, as I have stayed at the Downtown Hotel before , as well as having stayed on Phi Phi Island at a guest house. Guess I should feel lucky I am alive....

[Chopperboy]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses. The chemical tocin that caused the deaths dissipates when exposed to the environment inside the body. This results in there being little or no trace of the chemical in the bodies.

Starting in 2009, hotels in Thailand started to experience problems with westerners coming to Thailand unknowing carrying bedbugs. The bedbugs soon started to rake havoc in some hotels that primarily catered to westerners and they took measures to eradicate these pests from their hotel mattresses. In most cases a proper chemical was applied and the directions were followed. However, in some cases the hotel employees took extreme measures by over applying the chemicals and did not follow directions such as to take the mattresses outside to air out during and after the application of these chemicals.

The end result was transference of the chemical from the mattresses via contact with the skin of the victims. Even then in most cases when the victims became ill they and left before they had enough exposure to kill them. Often they wrote it off as food poisoning and just moved on.

In these cases in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, five people survived after being hospitalized and so far as we can now confirm 11 people have died with the possibility of three other deaths from 2009 in other cities that could be related. The information on these deaths can be found with a little time making few Internet searches.

Source please re. Westerners bringing bedbugs to Thailand in 2009.

Regardless where the bedbugs originated from, surely Scientist can investigate or experiment on the chemicals used to spray bed that are used to kill bedbugs?. It seems to me the hotels are not confessing up that they have used the chemicals or in what dilutions. Can't the authorities interrogate the hotel owners and workers and find out in what proportions the chemicals are used in the spraying for bedbugs?

Please check here for the detailed story regarding the bed bug spray theory.

http://photo-journ.com/2011/war-of-words-over-chiang-mai-tourist-deaths-report/#axzz1VC3kUrUx

[bangkokheat]

A few years ago I met a country girl in OZ, she told me about blue/green algae how it nearly killed her son. Apparently there are many varieties and their toxic levels depends on different factors. I just read on the internet briefly that blistering was one of the side affects as well as respiratory failure, vomiting, diahorea.

[Arkady]

To be fair, forensic results can take a while weeks into months depending on tests being done! My guess is not many people who comment here have medical training. Sure understand the family wanting answers but let the process work its way thorugh, and no doubt they will keep pressure on in the hope of finding out what did happen. As I hope.

Have lived in Thailand for a few years and receive the updates to thaivisa daily, this is my first comment due I find most of the comments are from people who dont really want to live here or use the fourm to moan! Come on guys we all live here for a reason, or why not go home and live in our fantastic Western countries!

The article is written in a way that suggests the authorities are guilty of yet another cover up of tourist deaths. Indeed results from autopsies can take some time but it is as well to be vigilant. Without criticism in foreign media, as in this case, the police would feel that there was no downside to covering things up which is what they are often under pressure to do, particularly with foreign victims and/or influential suspects. There are many cases where foreign deaths have clearly been covered up, going back to the notorious murder of 16 year old Sherry Duncan in the 70s in which every one knows who had her murdered but the real culprit was never charged while several innocent men without money or connections rotted and died in prison wrongfully for it. More recently there was the rape and murder of Kirsty Jones in Chiang Mai, thought by British police to have a been perpetrated by a Thai policeman, the murder of a Canadian man in Pai, the mystery deaths at the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai etc, etc.

[sydneyjed]

All you can say is sad....Sad for the victims in 2009,sad for the victims in Chiang Mai in 2011 and sad for the Canadian sisters who died just recently!Even sadder that we are no nearer to conclusion and closure to their causes of death...I honestly think that parts of Thai society is that far entrenched with corruption on a everyday basis that it is in fact in their eyes normality...sad!

[marquis22]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses. The chemical tocin that caused the deaths dissipates when exposed to the environment inside the body. This results in there being little or no trace of the chemical in the bodies.

Starting in 2009, hotels in Thailand started to experience problems with westerners coming to Thailand unknowing carrying bedbugs. The bedbugs soon started to rake havoc in some hotels that primarily catered to westerners and they took measures to eradicate these pests from their hotel mattresses. In most cases a proper chemical was applied and the directions were followed. However, in some cases the hotel employees took extreme measures by over applying the chemicals and did not follow directions such as to take the mattresses outside to air out during and after the application of these chemicals.

The end result was transference of the chemical from the mattresses via contact with the skin of the victims. Even then in most cases when the victims became ill they and left before they had enough exposure to kill them. Often they wrote it off as food poisoning and just moved on.

In these cases in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, five people survived after being hospitalized and so far as we can now confirm 11 people have died with the possibility of three other deaths from 2009 in other cities that could be related. The information on these deaths can be found with a little time making few Internet searches.

Source please re. Westerners bringing bedbugs to Thailand in 2009.

Regardless where the bedbugs originated from, surely Scientist can investigate or experiment on the chemicals used to spray bed that are used to kill bedbugs?. It seems to me the hotels are not confessing up that they have used the chemicals or in what dilutions. Can't the authorities interrogate the hotel owners and workers and find out in what proportions the chemicals are used in the spraying for bedbugs?

Please check here for the detailed story regarding the bed bug spray theory.

http://photo-journ.c.../#axzz1VC3kUrUx

Thanks ... Sure is another unsolved mystery..

[Chopperboy]

Other Thai plant based poisons

Abrin is a toxalbumin that is found in the seeds of a plant called the lucky bean, rosary pea or jequirity pea.

causes vomiting, vomiting blood, diarrhea, bloody stools, abdominal cramps/pain, severe inflammation of the lining of the stomach and intestine (gastroenteritis), possible bleeding of the membrane in the rear of the eye (retinal hemorrhage),

bluish skin, collapse of the blood vessels (vascular collapse), shock, and death.

Ricin the toxin found in the seeds of the castor oil plant.

Causes severe diarrhea and victims can die of shock death typically occurs within 3–5 days of the initial exposure

Antiarine is present in the bark and foliage of the Thai bark cloth tree Antiaris toxicaria.

Its a fast acting poisonous cardiac glycoside which attacks the central nervous system causing paralysis, convulsions and cardiac arrest.

[Acemaker]

It would help if people would read the article so that they had a half a clue what they are talking about.

The handling of the sisters death's were handled the same way other cases were. Then they were sent for autopsies to look for every thing not just one single item.

That was not done in the other cases. It is a completely different way of handling it. But if you read the article you would lose your chance to bash Thai's so don't read it and bash away.

Flame on.

As for the Canadian Press I doubt it made a ripple. The girls come from Quebeck where they think the world revolves around the French Canadian and in all liklly hood they would have made it a huge deal.

The girls come from Quebeck where they think the world revolves around the French Canadian , Your avin a larf right,

[HUAHIN62]

Why should the police give information to the press if it will compromise their investigation? Are this done in your home countries? The police can't involve Interpol if they don't have proof the two men were involved in the deaths, the best they can do is "sought for questioning". The police don't have the full autopcy report yet how can they know if they are investigating murders or manslaughter (food poisioning or pesticide misuse). (PLEASE NOTE THE SAME TESTS/AUTOPCY'S WILL BE DONE IN CANADA, IF NOT MORE HOW CAN THEY COVERUP THESE RESULTS). The family and the Canadian embassy choose the hospital to conduct the autopcy's in BKK and not the Police facility as reported previously by the Gazette. Complicated investigations take time to conduct and frothing at the mouth and pointing fingers don't contribute to the situation.

[maidu]

First off, the press release by the Thai official sounds too well written. Either a native English speaker wrote it, or it was edited by one. Reminds me of a time when I wrote a strong letter to a Thai neighbor of mine. I had a Thai friend translate it. Only later did I find the translation used flowery language, which was not in the letter I wrote.

On the topic of possible over-applying pesticide. I had two women clean my house one time, and they decided to do a load of laundry. I happened to notice the amount of detergent they put in for that one load, was enough for 25 loads. I only mention that because some Thais don't have a clue regarding dosages of chemical things. I see it in the fields also, when they're applying herbicide/pesticides on crops.

In sum, the press release by the Thai official basically indicates what many of us already know: Thai authorities do not have the skills or prowess (and maybe not the willingness) needed to find out what really caused the most recent deaths, and the tourist deaths prior. They need to either bring in farang experts, or go study at farang-run institutions, to become adept at their jobs.

Sometimes, while doing investigative work, the tiniest clue may be very important in cracking a case. Thais see tiny clues and claim 'inconclusive'. It's as if they want the molecules or pathogens under their microscope to be parading around with banners proclaiming what their names are.

[Curt1591]

I am curious, do these things just happen to tourists or do the thai people die from the same thing? On a regular basis.

For Thai people, dying of "natural causes" is more readily accepted. For a Buddhist, death is a natural part of life. Therefore, similar cases would, most likely, go unreported.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Curt1591

[Chopperboy]

On the topic of possible over-applying pesticide. I had two women clean my house one time, and they decided to do a load of laundry. I happened to notice the amount of detergent they put in for that one load, was enough for 25 loads. I only mention that because some Thais don't have a clue regarding dosages of chemical things. I see it in the fields also, when they're applying herbicide/pesticides on crops.

"The amount of chlorpyrifos found in the room was tiny – 0.10 micrograms per million – insufficient to kill. For death to occur via skin absorption and inhalation the room would have had to be literally dripping with the chemical."

Lethal Dose of Chlorpyrifos to Rats

Oral LD50 mg/kg Dermal LD50 mg/kg Inhalation LC50 mg/m3 in 4 hours

95 to 270 > 2000 > 200

Herbicides like paraquat are a different story, it takes only 2 teaspoons to kill. But the herbicides are for killing weeds not pests - and anyhow no other toxic chemical was found in the bedroom and no Chlorpyrifos or its footprint was found in any of the bodies.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Chopperboy

[Felt 35]

…..E-coli, Tocin, Laburnum, Golden shower, Cytisine, Abrin, Ricin, Antiarine, Algea, Paraquat……

Give us a break, these things is found all over Thailand and in many other countries. We talk about young, educated and healthy people here not a drug addict not seeing the difference on rat poison and heroin.

If the Thai Authorities want the world to know we know already.

[BarnicaleBob]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses. The chemical tocin that caused the deaths dissipates when exposed to the environment inside the body. This results in there being little or no trace of the chemical in the bodies.

Starting in 2009, hotels in Thailand started to experience problems with westerners coming to Thailand unknowing carrying bedbugs. The bedbugs soon started to rake havoc in some hotels that primarily catered to westerners and they took measures to eradicate these pests from their hotel mattresses. In most cases a proper chemical was applied and the directions were followed. However, in some cases the hotel employees took extreme measures by over applying the chemicals and did not follow directions such as to take the mattresses outside to air out during and after the application of these chemicals.

The end result was transference of the chemical from the mattresses via contact with the skin of the victims. Even then in most cases when the victims became ill they and left before they had enough exposure to kill them. Often they wrote it off as food poisoning and just moved on.

In these cases in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, five people survived after being hospitalized and so far as we can now confirm 11 people have died with the possibility of three other deaths from 2009 in other cities that could be related. The information on these deaths can be found with a little time making few Internet searches.

Source please re. Westerners bringing bedbugs to Thailand in 2009.

Here are just a few links, there hundreds more supporting the now world-wide bed bug epidemic:

http://www.luxuryhotelsthai.com/wrold-hotels/sleep-tight-the-bed-bug-epidemic-is-real-2009.html

http://www.dcspotlight.com/health/healthy-living/don%E2%80%99t-let-the-bed-bugs-bite-a-worldwide-epidemic/

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Bed-Bugs-Have-Become-A-Worldwide-Epidemic/1085654

[gamini]

I am curious, do these things just happen to tourists or do the thai people die from the same thing? On a regular basis.

I remember reading that a goup of thai tourists collected mushrooms in Demark thinking they were edible. They were all hospitalised and some died.

[swillowbee]

... the Internet now allows foreigners to penetrate the veil shrouding truths Thai officialdom has long easily concealed ... while the Thai government does control and monitor the Internet and media within Thailand, those outside have transparent access to events here.

... Carl Belanger, the girls' father, is of course correct to be suspicious of the integrity and competence of the Thai investigation.

... Thailand's reputation for corruption is notorious ... the world now sees the real Thailand, behind the carefully crafted Amazing Thailand promotions.

... if Thailand someday rises above the cesspool of corruption into which they've turned their nation, and Thais do someday recognize the value of integrity and honesty, Thais will still be untrusted ... the Thai's reputation for corruption has been earned over many years and many notorious events ... it is now an engrained cultural value ... the cultural values of civilized nations are not like Thai cultural values.

[blueshark]

We can alll surmise and accuse, but the fact is the girls are dead. Enough said, from a fellow Canadian.

Nice.. but finding out what killed them and stopping it happening to others would also be good into the bargin?

[blueshark]

... the Internet now allows foreigners to penetrate the veil shrouding truths Thai officialdom has long easily concealed ... while the Thai government does control and monitor the Internet and media within Thailand, those outside have transparent access to events here.

... Carl Belanger, the girls' father, is of course correct to be suspicious of the integrity and competence of the Thai investigation.

... Thailand's reputation for corruption is notorious ... the world now sees the real Thailand, behind the carefully crafted Amazing Thailand promotions.

... if Thailand someday rises above the cesspool of corruption into which they've turned their nation, and Thais do someday recognize the value of integrity and honesty, Thais will still be untrusted ... the Thai's reputation for corruption has been earned over many years and many notorious events ... it is now an engrained cultural value ... the cultural values of civilized nations are not like Thai cultural values.

Cold sobering truth.... this is why i have been burring my head in the sand all these years. I want t be sick I thought it was just me being fussy.

[ginjag]

Just remembering the elderly couple from my home county in the U.K. They came for a happy holiday in Chiang Mai at the now demolished hotel downtown inn. Active elderly people, withstanding a 12 hour flight, and travel to C.M. BOTH died of heart attacks in the room, the wife on the bed, the husband on his knees and upper body on the bed. Strange that they had heart attacks at the same time. When back to the U.K. it would be good to speak about it to the son and find out really what he thinks.

[jackinbkk]

As raised by some people, why do tourists still visit Phi Phi after this happens time and time again? It's because they don't know about it. I work with plenty of people who take holidays in SE Asia. They've talked about lovely Phi Phi and I'm sure they don't know anything about this incident or the others. If I visited i'd be quite concerned about the insecticides on beds, like the Chiang Mai incidents. I'm amazed that still all the incidents are mysteries. How can the old cases be a great guide to investigating this one when they are still unsolved? They know nothing or they are making it look that way at least.

[elektrified]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses. The chemical tocin that caused the deaths dissipates when exposed to the environment inside the body. This results in there being little or no trace of the chemical in the bodies.

Starting in 2009, hotels in Thailand started to experience problems with westerners coming to Thailand unknowing carrying bedbugs. The bedbugs soon started to rake havoc in some hotels that primarily catered to westerners and they took measures to eradicate these pests from their hotel mattresses. In most cases a proper chemical was applied and the directions were followed. However, in some cases the hotel employees took extreme measures by over applying the chemicals and did not follow directions such as to take the mattresses outside to air out during and after the application of these chemicals.

The end result was transference of the chemical from the mattresses via contact with the skin of the victims. Even then in most cases when the victims became ill they and left before they had enough exposure to kill them. Often they wrote it off as food poisoning and just moved on.

In these cases in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, five people survived after being hospitalized and so far as we can now confirm 11 people have died with the possibility of three other deaths from 2009 in other cities that could be related. The information on these deaths can be found with a little time making few Internet searches.

This from someone who has never examined the victims (nor is qualified to do so) but speaks like what he has said is factual.

[dingdang]

expirence

You will find the evidence leading to the cause of death in the hotel mattresses.

but the girls just arrived that day... i understand, they didnt even get the chance to sleep...

they havent spent much time in the room that day...

interesting, that you say bed bugs were brought by westerners...

i always wondered, if all that creeps do survive the flight in freezing cold... maybe it isnt all that cold there, other animals fly there too...

Edited July 10, 2012 by dingdang