Working For Us Company Remotely In Thailand, Work Permit?

[shiroboi]

Link to article?

http://www.phuketgaz...ils.asp?id=1175

No ambiguity or misunderstanding from Immigation offical concerned or from the DOL official quoted

This topic has been discussed many times at length on TV, and I will change my opinion on what is legal the day someone publishes a letter from the Thai DOL or Thai immigration stating that "person XYZ" passport number XXXXXXXis offiically permitted to work on-line without a WP ", until that time..."what a senior official at immigration told me" or "what a Thai embassy or consulate told me" is completely irrelevant..

Finally, some official information. They make it sound so easy though to apply for a work permit if you're working online. Kinda funny when they won't give you one.

This caught my eye as well "“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens."

I will be in Thailand on a Marriage Visa. They said that you can get a work permit because of that. I'm wondering if the work permit restrictions are the same. I'd love to know more about that exception.

[Jodokus]

It is not an exception, but a rule. If you are married to a Thai woman, you can obtain a non immigrant O visa at any Thai embassy. If you mention in the application that you request this visa to support your Thai wife, you must proof that you have either a minimum income of 40.000 bath per month or a deposit account with a Thai bank of at least 400K bath, among some other things you should proof. So, that's the visa department.

1 month before that non O visa expires, you can apply for extension at immigration. You must proof more or less the same and some more.

If you stay legally in Thailand that way, you can apply for a work permit at department of labour. There are all kinds of options you have on which basis you want to have that work permit. Working for a foreign company with NO establishment in Thailand is not one of those options.

I suggest that you get smart and inform yourself on the official websites of Thai Embassies/Department of Foreign Affairs for visa, website of Thai immigration for extension requirements and website of labour department for working permits. Most information is available in English, because after all, it is mentioned for foreigners who don't speak Thai.

I know, it sounds too simple to be true, but you know what? It is that simple. All you have to do is think a little bit for yourself and learn to keep your pants up when you are abroad. The Thai officials are very helpfully and have a lot of patience with falang that do not have an attitude.

So.....why not give it a try? The time you spent here would have learned you all you need to know if you would have visited the official Thai info channels. Good luck/chock dee.

[Jodokus]

Oh, by the way, the article in the Phuket Gazette is full of BS. No disrespect for the interviewed officials, but the given information is clearly not correct interpretation of the laws on labour in Thailand. The interview (read it very good and especially between the lines) aims on those foreigners that are consistently abusing the Thai laws and want to be "penny wise, pound foolish" by trying to save the hilarious amount of a couple of thousand baht on permits and visa by dodging the laws.

The polite Thai officials just want to warn these people to not fck around with Thai law and respect the rules here, as you would have to do in your own country. Of course, these powerfull guys can go around the law if they think that is necessary to keep the order. But they won't do that unless it is extremely necessary. Apparently, the situation in Phuket is getting out of hand and they signaled now "enough is enough".

There would be much to learn for Western government officials and law makers from the Thai.

[Muggi1968]

Once I asked the local Immigration and work department for their opinion about an issue from here.

They told me to stop listening to people on the internet and ask them directly .

They have a lot of people applying for visa etc, based on wrong information.

They told me to let them help me instead..

And they are very helpfull.. At least in Kanchannabury

But I enjoy reading here.

There is a lot to learn, but also a lot of paranoid people.

Just be careful about legal advice...

But it is fun reading.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Muggi1968

[lopburi3]

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens."

I will be in Thailand on a Marriage Visa. They said that you can get a work permit because of that. I'm wondering if the work permit restrictions are the same. I'd love to know more about that exception.

That only means a work permit can be issued on such a visa/extension of stay - it does not mean it will be - you still have to find the job and meet qualifications for work permit issue - it only means you do not have to convert to a non immigrant B visa or change your extension of stay reason for the work permit to be issued.

[BWPattaya]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

That may be so, but it will be "officially" answered when someone of the Thai Consulate OR a Thai lawyer weighs in on the subject. I've spent too much time at a law firm to trust the legal advice of dudes on a forum. Still the opinions are interesting.

Personally, I think I'll probably feel a bit uneasy staying in thailand without a work permit. I'll most likely get a 9-5 type job and get a work permit for that. I'll work on freelance work in my spare time like I do now. That is, until I feel confident enough to open up a Thai business in my or my wife's name.

If you do manage to get a job and work permit please remember that the work permit is only valid for that job at the designated address for that compnany. It doesn't allow you to work somewhere else as well.

[shiroboi]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

That may be so, but it will be "officially" answered when someone of the Thai Consulate OR a Thai lawyer weighs in on the subject. I've spent too much time at a law firm to trust the legal advice of dudes on a forum. Still the opinions are interesting.

Personally, I think I'll probably feel a bit uneasy staying in thailand without a work permit. I'll most likely get a 9-5 type job and get a work permit for that. I'll work on freelance work in my spare time like I do now. That is, until I feel confident enough to open up a Thai business in my or my wife's name.

If you do manage to get a job and work permit please remember that the work permit is only valid for that job at the designated address for that compnany. It doesn't allow you to work somewhere else as well.

Oh I know, it just looks a lot more suspicious working from home full time as opposed to having a full time WP job and doing some online work at night.

[shiroboi]

It is not an exception, but a rule. If you are married to a Thai woman, you can obtain a non immigrant O visa at any Thai embassy. If you mention in the application that you request this visa to support your Thai wife, you must proof that you have either a minimum income of 40.000 bath per month or a deposit account with a Thai bank of at least 400K bath, among some other things you should proof. So, that's the visa department.

1 month before that non O visa expires, you can apply for extension at immigration. You must proof more or less the same and some more.

If you stay legally in Thailand that way, you can apply for a work permit at department of labour. There are all kinds of options you have on which basis you want to have that work permit. Working for a foreign company with NO establishment in Thailand is not one of those options.

I suggest that you get smart and inform yourself on the official websites of Thai Embassies/Department of Foreign Affairs for visa, website of Thai immigration for extension requirements and website of labour department for working permits. Most information is available in English, because after all, it is mentioned for foreigners who don't speak Thai.

I know, it sounds too simple to be true, but you know what? It is that simple. All you have to do is think a little bit for yourself and learn to keep your pants up when you are abroad. The Thai officials are very helpfully and have a lot of patience with falang that do not have an attitude.

So.....why not give it a try? The time you spent here would have learned you all you need to know if you would have visited the official Thai info channels. Good luck/chock dee.

I absolutely plan to. I'd be coming in January which is a good time to get things straightened out before april when the school year starts. I'm an easygoing guy with a good attitude and I prefer to blend in. I already speak some conversational Thai so I'm hoping to pick up the languge quick. After all, I consider myself Thai by marriage (culturally, not officially). Thanks for the comments and encouragement.

[Jodokus]

You're welcome!

[tombkk]

Once I asked the local Immigration and work department for their opinion about an issue from here.

They told me to stop listening to people on the internet and ask them directly .

They have a lot of people applying for visa etc, based on wrong information.

They told me to let them help me instead..

And they are very helpfull.. At least in Kanchannabury

But I enjoy reading here.

There is a lot to learn, but also a lot of paranoid people.

Just be careful about legal advice...

But it is fun reading.

I agree about being careful. My personal expertise is not about immigration and labour law, but about import of goods. I have encountered many times that the customs officers did not know the latest laws and regulations.

Some people over here are very familiar with the latest immigration regulations, and - given the problem of the Thai government to regularly update their officers - might be a better source than your local provincial officer. Unless, of course, the local immigration officer is more helpful than the latest change of law, that is.

Just my 2 satangs worth.

[tombkk]

And I have read a completely opposite article from an immigration officer stating that online workers do not need a WP since they are not interested in them at all. Go figure.

Never mind your friend the immigration officer. Thai law clearly states that any foreigner who "exerts energy" to get things done, needs a work permit. The person who works online clearly falls under this regulation. This even makes more sense than the voluntary workers who work without salary to fix up things in remote villages.

It is a completely different issue that Thai immigration does not follow offenders who work only online. (Is this really true?)

[Jelopi]

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account.

Seriously, I doubt anyone wise enough to be able to work online would be that stupid to get paid directly to a Thai account. If you have an offshore company, you get paid to the offshore bank. The thing about thousands being tracked and deported sooner or later is just bullsh*t, does not make any sense. These people spend money in Thailand, and Thailand needs them. If they ever change the law and allow them to open a sole proprietorship in here, Thai economy would gain even more of their money in terms of the tax and also services provided through the accountants etc. For now, this is a net income for the offshore countries.

If you were to have an offshore account, how would one get the money in hand to pay for things in Thailand? Is there international accounts or visa/mastercards that can be used to fill in for a Thai bank account?

[kotsak]

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account.

Seriously, I doubt anyone wise enough to be able to work online would be that stupid to get paid directly to a Thai account. If you have an offshore company, you get paid to the offshore bank. The thing about thousands being tracked and deported sooner or later is just bullsh*t, does not make any sense. These people spend money in Thailand, and Thailand needs them. If they ever change the law and allow them to open a sole proprietorship in here, Thai economy would gain even more of their money in terms of the tax and also services provided through the accountants etc. For now, this is a net income for the offshore countries.

If you were to have an offshore account, how would one get the money in hand to pay for things in Thailand? Is there international accounts or visa/mastercards that can be used to fill in for a Thai bank account?

By sending money to your Thai bank account? You are sending money to yourself, a very natural thing to do :>

Edited July 18, 2012 by kotsak

[Jingthing]

I'm of the opinion that Thai immigration is indeed not interested in people working online with activities that don't have any connection to the Thai economy, banking, customers, etc EXCEPT in cases where the work is of an (otherwise) illegal nature. Such as scamming people, porno, etc. Of course if some enemy snitches on such people, perhaps they would feel the need to investigate.

[Jelopi]

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account.

Seriously, I doubt anyone wise enough to be able to work online would be that stupid to get paid directly to a Thai account. If you have an offshore company, you get paid to the offshore bank. The thing about thousands being tracked and deported sooner or later is just bullsh*t, does not make any sense. These people spend money in Thailand, and Thailand needs them. If they ever change the law and allow them to open a sole proprietorship in here, Thai economy would gain even more of their money in terms of the tax and also services provided through the accountants etc. For now, this is a net income for the offshore countries.

If you were to have an offshore account, how would one get the money in hand to pay for things in Thailand? Is there international accounts or visa/mastercards that can be used to fill in for a Thai bank account?

By sending money to your Thai bank account? You are sending money to yourself, a very natural thing to do :>

It's not taken into account then that it's coming from another country?

You need a work permit to apply for a Thai bank account in most cases right?

[Jingthing]

It's not taken into account then that it's coming from another country?

You need a work permit to apply for a Thai bank account in most cases right?

Not in the past. Of course the current (or future) policies may change. Edited July 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

A bank account in Thailand is the requirement and there is no card alternative. There is no requirement to have a work permit to open a bank account (but this is often the mantra of bank officials who do not want to bother to open or check rules - moving to another branch normally solves that problem).

[Jodokus]

And I have read a completely opposite article from an immigration officer stating that online workers do not need a WP since they are not interested in them at all. Go figure.

Never mind your friend the immigration officer. Thai law clearly states that any foreigner who "exerts energy" to get things done, needs a work permit. The person who works online clearly falls under this regulation. This even makes more sense than the voluntary workers who work without salary to fix up things in remote villages.

It is a completely different issue that Thai immigration does not follow offenders who work only online. (Is this really true?)

So, if your statement would be correct, it means that I have to get a WP for my activities online as a worldwide operating financial markets trader? I'm sorry man, but that's simply NOT true.

[Soutpeel]

And I have read a completely opposite article from an immigration officer stating that online workers do not need a WP since they are not interested in them at all. Go figure.

Never mind your friend the immigration officer. Thai law clearly states that any foreigner who "exerts energy" to get things done, needs a work permit. The person who works online clearly falls under this regulation. This even makes more sense than the voluntary workers who work without salary to fix up things in remote villages.

It is a completely different issue that Thai immigration does not follow offenders who work only online. (Is this really true?)

So, if your statement would be correct, it means that I have to get a WP for my activities online as a worldwide operating financial markets trader? I'm sorry man, but that's simply NOT true.

If you are resident in Thailand and operating as an online market trader to support your living in Thailand, this could be interpreted as working in Thailand.

If you are stating this is legally not the case then please provide the letter you received from immigration or the DOL which states Mr "Jodokus" passport number XXXXXXXX is legally allowed to operate an on-line buisness in Thailand without having to comply with current WP requirements... but coming back and tell me, an official at immigration/DOL told I could do this is not acceptable.

Further the fact you may not be getting paid into Thailand is completely irrelevant as well.

If this is in fact legal you should be able to provide a suitable letter from the applicable authoritiesas they would have no problem providing you with a letter/document

[lopburi3]

post removed for language

[Soutpeel]

Oh man, this is a pure bullshit. No one really cares about online work not involving Thailand, just accept the simple fact. The WP can not be issued for it either so why we even discuss this shit? Work online, too, if you are jealous or whatever, no one really cares, simple as that. Get a life.

Have you asked immigration or the DOL as to whether they care or not ?...A WP could be issued if it is set up properly, and there was a member of TV who actually did it properly, so usually it boils down to the fact the person concerned cant be ar*sed to do it properly..

I am not jealous at all, I work here, I have a WP and have done so for many years...I dont care, if someone gets caught or doesnt get caught, I am legal

But what gets up my nose is people getting on TV saying, they can work legally in Thailand without a WP and then try and rationalise what they are doing...ie Immigration/DOL dont care, they dont understand...Blah blah..I want to be treated differently, I dont bring any money into the country, I am being paid over sea's etc etc an immigration official "told" me so....so yes why discuss this sh*t ?....in the link provided Phuket Immigration and DOL have already stated they consider this working...but this is not the answer you want to hear is it ?

As stated as to whether someone is working or not in Thailand online is all in the eyes of the official dealing with your case, and if working on line in Thailand as a "resident" is truely legal and legit as some people are saying then they should have no problem or fear of popping into their local immigration/DOL and getting a letter signed to that effect then and coming back and publishing it on TV ?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Soutpeel

[falang07]

You still do not get it, why should anyone make a WP for services provided exclusively to foreign clients when this work is not considered as done in the country where he/she sits behind the PC, but in the country of the customer.

For reference see e.g.: http://customs.hmrc....029955#P38_5204 --

2.4.1 The B2B general rule

The B2B general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the customer belongs (see section 5).

2.4.2 The B2C general rule

The B2C general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the supplier belongs (see section 5).

Edited July 19, 2012 by falang07

[falang07]

This means that such work is considered as done in the country of the delivery, and this is a general rule in all the EU. I suppose it is similar in Thailand.

[falang07]

Also, you say one can get a WP for online work and a work visa? Have you ever heard a single case like this done as a sole proprietor, and not the Thai company way? If so, why is everyone else saying it is impossible? Clearly, it is not that the person concerned cant be ar*sed to do it properly, but because the laws of Thailand did not/do not want to think about this, they would rather enjoy the benefit of a poor sole proprietor making a Thai company and feeding 4 Thais with it. I say no way, and wake up!

[Soutpeel]

You still do not get it, why should anyone make a WP for services provided exclusively to foreign clients when this work is not considered as done in the country where he/she sits behind the PC, but in the country of the customer.

For reference see e.g.: http://customs.hmrc....029955#P38_5204 --

2.4.1 The B2B general rule

The B2B general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the customer belongs (see section 5).

2.4.2 The B2C general rule

The B2C general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the supplier belongs (see section 5).

Why are you quoting UK regulations ?....this has nothing to do with Thailand....seems we are rationalising again, as I keep saying, due to the way the current law is written its in the eye's of the official concerned to decide whether someone working on line is working or not in Thailand, The only definitive answer I have ever seen came out of Phuket immigration/DOL and they stated they considered working on-line in Thailand as requiring a WP.

[Jingthing]

...

As stated as to whether someone is working or not in Thailand online is all in the eyes of the official dealing with your case, and if working on line in Thailand as a "resident" is truely legal and legit as some people are saying then they should have no problem or fear of popping into their local immigration/DOL and getting a letter signed to that effect then and coming back and publishing it on TV ?

That would be very foolish. This is a don't ask, don't tell situation. Thailand is a land of moral/legal ambiguity. Like it or not. It is what it is.

[inthepink]

Yes. it's ridiculous to ask people to show you written proof that they do not need a work permit. Has anybody ever got such a letter for any reason? I doubt if immigration / labour officials would waste their time writing letters for people that didn't need them.

[falang07]

OK, so once again and slowly, imagine this situation:

I have an offshore company (i.e. registered outside Thailand) that I work for online (i.e. by sitting in front of the computer and typing on the keyboard in my room somewhere in Thailand, or anywhere else, depends where I am at the moment). My customers are not from Thailand, the company bank account is in the country where my company is registered, i.e. not in Thailand. Any money I ever remit to Thailand for my personal use is always sent in the next year after they are earned. How in the Earth could I get a Thai work permit for such work and for a foreign registered company that has nothing to do with Thailand? This income is not subject to Thai income tax either, even if I would be a tax resident of Thailand and told them about this work, they are simply not going to tax me. So I might go and try to make a work permit, but based on what? It simply does not make any sense, and why would anyone bother is also beyond my imagination. If you sell on ebay and ship from Thailand, this would be of course different, but in case of service providers it is clearly not needed/possible.

[inthepink]

OK, so once again and slowly, imagine this situation:

I have an offshore company (i.e. registered outside Thailand) that I work for online (i.e. by sitting in front of the computer and typing on the keyboard in my room somewhere in Thailand, or anywhere else, depends where I am at the moment). My customers are not from Thailand, the company bank account is in the country where my company is registered, i.e. not in Thailand. Any money I ever remit to Thailand for my personal use is always sent in the next year after they are earned. How in the Earth could I get a Thai work permit for such work and for a foreign registered company that has nothing to do with Thailand? This income is not subject to Thai income tax either, even if I would be a tax resident of Thailand and told them about this work, they are simply not going to tax me. So I might go and try to make a work permit, but based on what? It simply does not make any sense, and why would anyone bother is also beyond my imagination. If you sell on ebay and ship from Thailand, this would be of course different, but in case of service providers it is clearly not needed/possible.

I don't think anybody is saying you could get a work permit. They are saying you will be breaking the law if you do the work. Edited July 19, 2012 by inthepink

[Soutpeel]

Yes. it's ridiculous to ask people to show you written proof that they do not need a work permit. Has anybody ever got such a letter for any reason? I doubt if immigration / labour officials would waste their time writing letters for people that didn't need them.

Ok...show me any official goverment document which states that you dont need a WP then when working on line in Thailand, as it appears phuket immigration/DOL are of the opinion that you do need one, and I am not taking about a document which somebody is rationalising as to what it means...