Thai Kids At Bangkok's International Schools Risk Getting 'Lost In Translation'

[sprq]

Yes, apparently these students have families and friends that only speak English and everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English as well. Hmm, now I certainly don't find that hard to believe.

Don't think you will see many international school educated kids as clerks and shopkeepers/workers in Bkk. Might get some, but not many.

You have completely misunderstood the comment and its ironic nature too. Back to school!

[rotary]

Many years ago I had a friend who's kid had been in the international school system in Bkk. At 17 years old he was good on English speaking, good at written english, good at spoken Thai but could hardy read or write Thai. Thats not a good education in my thinking

Edited July 13, 2012 by rotary

[sprq]

Yes, apparently these students have families and friends that only speak English and everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English as well. Hmm, now I certainly don't find that hard to believe.

I simply don't believe the line about "...everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak English....."

But I am very aware of one very wealthy Thai family (just one example only):

- Both parents travel abroad constantly for business and spend very little time with their children.

- Both parents speak fluent English (they were both educated in Geelong in Australia, from the start of 4th grade in Primary, right through to completing their Masters degrees).

- Both parents have have a very strong desire for their kids to speak fluent English. They have a whole house full of Philippino staff: house manager, cooks, maids, drivers, all of whom have advanced education (easy enough to find from the Philippines), plus one Pinoy man late twenties who is a qualified and experienced high school teacher - he is there as a school coach and to supervise homework and he is the official contact person with their international school, and he is responsible to constantly update the parents. All of the staff have excellent salaries and other benefits. They are forbidden to ever speak Thai to the children.

- I've been to the house several times, all the Pinoy staff have excellent communication skills and they speak very clear English (have to or they wouldn't have the job).

- The Pinoy house manager contacts a senior person at the company office when repairs to the house, cars etc., are needed.

- All of these kids go to an expensive but good international school where the Thai student numbers are very low, and the main language of the whole student body is English.

- If the kids must interact with a Thai person (e.g. a government officer) then someone from the company office is assigned to go with them. Why? Because their Thai language skills are very poor (all skills, reading, wrting, listening and speaking).

This is an isolated example and it's clear that the parents have gone overboard.

I think "everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English" was supposed to be sarcastic and consequently very British.

Yes. Sarcasm and irony are lost on many Thaivisa particpants, and rarely understood by Thais, which is one of the downsides of living here to those of us who imbibed them with our mothers' milk.

Note to all those who don't know the difference: my comment is not sarcastic or ironic.

[scorecard]

Can't read or write their parents' language. Just a dam_n shame, the incredible depth and breadth of the native literature that will be unavailable to them. Their brains are probably being horribly altered at these schools too, what with those wicked "critical thinking" and "analytical skills" being indoctrinated into them.

****ing foreigners.

This is exactly why Farang schools are NOT allowed in Thailand, until some 20 years ago, it is alleged that some corrupted official from the ministry of education take under table payment and start giving out license for Farang to open school in Thailand.

This has destroyed the language and culture ability of Thai people in Thailand. What a disgrace. I am such our father would have objected.

Sarcasm anyone?!

Narrow thinking maybe?

[Unkomoncents]

Sounds like the the international school kids are in for more difficult "required" classes if they hold Thai passports. I know a family that moved to the US so that they could gain US citizenship and then happily came back and enrolled their kids at ISB, knowing that with their US passports, they would not have to take the tedious Thai language classes imposed on ISB students who hold Thai passports. For many of these Thai families, there is little incentive to learn Thai or have it as a principal language. They will work for multinational corporations in Thailand or abroad or own and manage factories with international clientele. The Thai language is useful if you want to work for a company that pays between 10-15,000 THB/month with no career development or real opportunity to develop as a professional (for the rest of your life). Thai is necessary if all your business is with Thais, in which case, you likely don't have a desirable position or future (given the economic realities in the Kingdom).

Yep, you should put that theory to people like Dhanin Chearavanont, Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Niti Osathanugrah or the many others who did OK with just the Thai language. Very interesting concept that if your career is planned for only Thailand you can only expect 10-15,000 THB/month.

Everyone of our office girls clears more than that, and yes, it is a Thai company and not one of them went to an international school. Bit of a misleading post I think.

What's the average salary in Thailand? That's great that in your particular case, your staff are paid more. How nice for them. I don't think you're likely to fit the description for the average boss in Thailand, however. For everyone one of your employees, I guarantee there are a thousand McDonald's employees. And we should touch upon the issue of salaries outside of Bangkok, because if you pay more than 15,000, you most certainly live in the capital.

Dhanin Chearavanont, Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Niti Osathanugrah

Do these people reflect the majority in the Kingdom?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[Ferangled]

Can't read or write their parents' language. Just a dam_n shame, the incredible depth and breadth of the native literature that will be unavailable to them. Their brains are probably being horribly altered at these schools too, what with those wicked "critical thinking" and "analytical skills" being indoctrinated into them.

****ing foreigners.

This is exactly why Farang schools are NOT allowed in Thailand, until some 20 years ago, it is alleged that some corrupted official from the ministry of education take under table payment and start giving out license for Farang to open school in Thailand.

This has destroyed the language and culture ability of Thai people in Thailand. What a disgrace. I am such our father would have objected.

Sarcasm anyone?!

Narrow thinking maybe?

Doh! 1st post sarcastic. 2nd post narrow minded

[ScouseTommy]

I am working at an International school, but as usual The Nation gets it only half right. The main Issue is Thai is the third language in many International schools. There is an emphasis on English, but then quite often you have Chinese, with Thai a poor third.

[ScouseTommy]

...........and on another point! Why cant some Thai's accept a little bit of responsibilty for 'moral decline'. Farang can hardly be blamed for the fact Thai technological school students, who speak little to no English (and exceptionally good Thai), run around Bangkok attacking each other with machetes! There is also the huge abuse of Yabaa in Thailand. This is definitely not a Farang drug! Thai speaking soap opera's and movies usually have cool gangsters who spend the entire time with girls in tiny skirts, or fighting and killing each other; so before you blame foreign media have a think about that! Then of course we have the wide spread rampant corruption that is part and parcel of living here. You as the Thai voter are the only people who can change this. However that hasn't happened. I really get tired of everything that goes wrong in Thailand being blamed on us foreign devils, who work hard and pay taxes in your country, and have little to no rights at all! Before you start casting blame try taking a look a little closer to home!

Edited July 13, 2012 by ScouseTommy

[eddie61]

Don't think you will see many international school educated kids as clerks and shopkeepers/workers in Bkk. Might get some, but not many.

No, the few that I've met seem to spend most of their free time spending their parents' money but I was not actually saying the clerks and shopkeepers were international school students. I know it's a bit early so perhaps you misread my post.

Well, if given the choice between English, Mandarin and Thai, what would you all chose?

If given the choice between English, Spanish and Welsh, what would you chose?

No disrespect to minority languages, but they are minority languages........it is a mathematical certainty that eventually they will cease to exist, quaint as they are, and sad as that may be.

Vive la France!

[Sayonarax]

Who ever wrote this is "lost in translation" and more than likely them selves went to an international English school. Hypocrite

[McMagus]

Ok, my experience having taught here in top tier, middle tier and bi-lingual schools is as follows; In the top tier schools, levels of spoken English is good and as expected even in 1st languages, better than written English. My observations of other schools is that although there may be an enrolment policy regarding entry level competency in English, often this is over ridden by the Thai directors' wishes and consequently children are admitted with almost zero competencies. The Thai teachers often complain that the Thai students in these schools are in fact way behind when it comes to their own tongue. In some middle and 3rd tier international schools, students' command of English is marginal and their mother tongue poor when it comes to reading and writing in their native tongue. In many international schools children may be 'actively discouraged' or even disciplined for speaking Thai. This policy is usually DRIVEN BY PARENTS, who don't want to spend big money for their kids to speak English and hear Thai when they visit the school. Thai script whilst beautiful to see is so complex, that schools need to put aside a lot of curriculum time for students to gain mastery. I have had discussions with both Thai and farangs who agree that maintaining the current script and the non differentiation between words is in part an effort (by ammart) to make access to education particularly difficult for the masses. Interesting na ?

[culicine]

A LOT of children struggle with the language, if their horrendous "you must learn every Thai grammar rule in the book" entrance exams are anything to go by.

I recently asked my ex-students via facebook if they were happy the studied in an english program. All bar one was happy - they mentioned it helped them a lot when continuing studies overseas and in International programs at university here.

Language is just a conduit for knowledge, so does it matter if they don't have fluency in their native tongue in the sciences / biology, etc? It doesn't seem to bother a few hundred million indians or Phillipinos ! At any rate, Thais actually do use english language textbooks in many Thai language degrees in university.

[Colabamumbai]

My Thai girlfriend teaching for six years in a 3 room school in Sahatsakhan 15, students Pratom, came home livid the other day that her students did not even underfstand basic Thai..... She blames the parents, not the school system, meanwhile she is also trying to teach them English although the school is not mandated to...She uses some of my lesson plans as I teach also, English.

[Arkady]

Ok, my experience having taught here in top tier, middle tier and bi-lingual schools is as follows; In the top tier schools, levels of spoken English is good and as expected even in 1st languages, better than written English. My observations of other schools is that although there may be an enrolment policy regarding entry level competency in English, often this is over ridden by the Thai directors' wishes and consequently children are admitted with almost zero competencies. The Thai teachers often complain that the Thai students in these schools are in fact way behind when it comes to their own tongue. In some middle and 3rd tier international schools, students' command of English is marginal and their mother tongue poor when it comes to reading and writing in their native tongue. In many international schools children may be 'actively discouraged' or even disciplined for speaking Thai. This policy is usually DRIVEN BY PARENTS, who don't want to spend big money for their kids to speak English and hear Thai when they visit the school. Thai script whilst beautiful to see is so complex, that schools need to put aside a lot of curriculum time for students to gain mastery. I have had discussions with both Thai and farangs who agree that maintaining the current script and the non differentiation between words is in part an effort (by ammart) to make access to education particularly difficult for the masses. Interesting na ?

Your observations are quite consistent with the study of Chinese students at English medium schools in Hong Kong I mentioned, i.e. the better students at the better schools thrive in the bilingual environments while the poorest students at the worst schools end up illiterate in two languages and would have been much better off studying in their mother tongue.

While I agree with you that a certain amount of reform of the Thai writing system would make it a bit easier for children to learn, it is a fairly simple and easy to learn system, compared to the Chinese writing system that Hong Kong kids have to learn while being educated at English schools. As you say, the reform is unlikely to happen. It has taken revolutions and invasion for meaningful reforms of writing systems in other countries in the region. The French forced the Vietnamese to abandon Chinese ideographs for the Roman alphabet. The communists simplified the Chinese writing system for the benefit of their children, while making it much harder for older people to read the simplified characters. Hong Kong and Taiwan clung on the traditional characters and Taiwan made it a criminal offence to print or smuggle in anything in the simplified characters associated with the communist revolution. The closest parallel to Thai is of course Lao which did undergo a significant spelling reform after the takeover by the Pathet Lao. All the redundant characters that have silent marks over them in Thai have been ditched as has the Ror Ruea letter which legitimizes having only "L"s and no "R"s.

[Bagwan]

A few months ago I read that some educational guru stated that in 50 years time there would be only 3 languages in common use throughout the World. He named English, Spanish and Mandarin. At the time I wondered if he was sober when stating that and how would Glaswegians cope if his prophesy came true.

[bkk_mike]

The OP has a point.

I've heard in the past that Thai children in International schools aren't up to par in Thai because the schools are set up initially for foreign children here while there parents are on medium term assignments, where the mandatory minimum of Thai being taught is perfectly reasonable as the ability to read/write in Thai is not exactly useful in other countries.

This has a downside for Thai children where, if they fail to get into a University abroad (either through poor exam results or their parents not being able to meet the financial requirements of the student visa, which can be quite significant now that, for instance, in the UK, student visas no longer give the right to work part-time), they can often find that their Thai language ability isn't sufficient for getting a University place at the better Universities in Thailand.

[SouthernMan3]

If in fact Thai students at Int. Schools can speak English better than Thai it is a testament to how good the educational system is. I'm sure that once they graduate and go off to study at proper universities in the West that not being able to pronounce certain words in some small language that is used in one small country isn't going to hold them back all that much.

I find it sad that they can not speak, read and write their own language well.

BUT, I do agree with your post.

AND, with the Asian community coming it should be obvious to all that sadly but truly English is more important then Thai.

I can not read or write Thai but I do live in a completely Thai environment and speak quite fluently (or so I am told be EVERONE I speak with).

I am sad if they can not communicate with their own country's population who do not speak English.

Or that they can not watch and understand the news and their own country's music for that matter...

[CanInBKK]

but the thai hi-so will go study in the US anyway and get a degree overthere and then come back and work in daddies hi so office or get a job thanks to some hiso placed person

Makes me wonder about the author of this very article. I'm not in any way passing judgement about the quality of the article as a newspaper piece (except for the grammar mistake) but is Thailand really in a vacuum of English writing journalists? There's such a dearth of journalism graduates in this country that the Nation is publishing pieces from a high school student? I'm not criticizing the quality of the article but just wanted to point out that maybe the only reason we're reading this article in the first place is because "somebody" knows "somebody"...... Food for thought.

[SouthernMan3]

Don't think you will see many international school educated kids as clerks and shopkeepers/workers in Bkk. Might get some, but not many.

No, the few that I've met seem to spend most of their free time spending their parents' money but I was not actually saying the clerks and shopkeepers were international school students. I know it's a bit early so perhaps you misread my post.

Well, if given the choice between English, Mandarin and Thai, what would you all chose?

If given the choice between English, Spanish and Welsh, what would you chose?

No disrespect to minority languages, but they are minority languages........it is a mathematical certainty that eventually they will cease to exist, quaint as they are, and sad as that may be.

Vive la France!

The days of French being the international language are long gone.

Just look at what we are using.

Duh.......

[metisdead]

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[zakk9]

I don't understand the negative reactions regarding this article. This is a well known problem and has been for years, not at all international schools but many. Not knowing one's mother thounge properly disqualifies the student from many jobs in the future and is a major problem when trying to learn other languages. Most of these kids are Thai and will continue to live in Thailand. The problem is particularly big for children coming from mixed families where one of the parents is Thai (often from parts of the country where the schooling has been sparce, so little help to get from the Thai parent with Thai grammar and spelling) and the other non-English native speaker. Those children often end up with mediocre Thai, mediocre English and a more or less non-existing third language.

[mrtoad]

Can't read or write their parents' language. Just a dam_n shame, the incredible depth and breadth of the native literature that will be unavailable to them. Their brains are probably being horribly altered at these schools too, what with those wicked "critical thinking" and "analytical skills" being indoctrinated into them.

****ing foreigners.

This is exactly why Farang schools are NOT allowed in Thailand, until some 20 years ago, it is alleged that some corrupted official from the ministry of education take under table payment and start giving out license for Farang to open school in Thailand.

This has destroyed the language and culture ability of Thai people in Thailand. What a disgrace. I am such our father would have objected.

Sarcasm anyone?!

I think you are trying to give too much credit

[Bangkokhatter]

Who ever wrote this is "lost in translation" and more than likely them selves went to an international English school. Hypocrite

Maybe you should try reading more of the thread before you jump on the criticising band wagon. The author is 15 and does attend an international school. How is the author being hypocritical ?

[lwilk]

Same same but different is probably their level in English too !

[tominbkk]

Can't read or write their parents' language. Just a dam_n shame, the incredible depth and breadth of the native literature that will be unavailable to them. Their brains are probably being horribly altered at these schools too, what with those wicked "critical thinking" and "analytical skills" being indoctrinated into them.

****ing foreigners.

Heaven forbid, they may not be able to get the rich and multilayered nuacnes of Thai soap operas.

[bbradsby]

The author is clearly driving a nationalist, xenophobic agenda, using one non-representative example without factual substantiation in the article.

They are statistically, factually wrong in their premise that Thai students in International Schools interact with expat students in English to any substantial degree, as the five schools we polled and the three we've personally enrolled our child in had a pretty consistent 45-55% Thai national/native student body. Thus the Thai national students' default language on-campus is easily observed to be 100% Thai, bastardized only by Korean, Japanese and facebook pop slang. Any literate Thai parent of an international school student will have observed this, to their horror.

Further, their English is generally marginal at best, their numbers so large, that they hold back the classroom curricula for expat students. Their Thai is practiced every time the teacher leaves the room. Naturally enough, between classes they refuse to converse in English with their Thai friends unless caught by a school official breaking the "English-Only" Rule, and then only momentarily speak Thainglish til said authority figure leaves.

The Pattana School's schoolyard default language may be an exception due to it's relatively larger expat student population, but there is no evidence to support the Nation article's author's broad-brush statements about the larger International School student body nor the xenophobic statements that the English-Only curricula are a threat in any way to Thai students, language or culture.

[Bluespunk]

Hi Ferangled:

A: I'm not back tracking, I'm clarifying.

B: the reason we ask ( ok I accept insist was the wrong word) parents to speak their home language at home is because sometimes parents feel it is better to only speak English at home, to the detriment of their home language. No one is blaming parents for anything or passing the buck. I am responsible for children's learning and that learning can take place in English in school and be reinforced at home in whichever language is best suited to the child. That language is not always English.

C: yeah sorry I messed up your post. My phone is not the best vehicle for this forum.

D: I have no idea what boarding schools do, I've never worked in one.

[Payboy]

So the Nation's printing home assignments as editorial pieces now?

[Thai at Heart]

Decent bilingual private school to make sure they get both languages settled, the international after 13.

I find it rather depressing to see expat kids who have been here for years who can barely speak a word of thai, and i know of plenty.

[SlideRiceFC]

I think "everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English" was supposed to be sarcastic and consequently very British.

It was, in fact, intended to be sarcasm. But I seem to have failed as it appears to have flown over the heads of many here. It saddens me a bit, because I thought this was one place I could enjoy a bit of sarcasm. My girlfriend is Thai and I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when conversing with her because sarcastic remarks are a definite no-no, guaranteed to be misunderstood. I will say though, I have one Thai friend who has rather poor English language skills but he employs the use of sarcasm quite frequently. It's a bit refreshing to know that some of them do pick up on it and enjoy it themselves.

Oh, and I'm American. I'm not sure if sarcasm and irony were imported from the Brits, but if they were I owe them my gratitude.