Thai Kids At Bangkok's International Schools Risk Getting 'Lost In Translation'

[Thai at Heart]

I think "everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English" was supposed to be sarcastic and consequently very British.

It was, in fact, intended to be sarcasm. But I seem to have failed as it appears to have flown over the heads of many here. It saddens me a bit, because I thought this was one place I could enjoy a bit of sarcasm. My girlfriend is Thai and I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when conversing with her because sarcastic remarks are a definite no-no, guaranteed to be misunderstood. I will say though, I have one Thai friend who has rather poor English language skills but he employs the use of sarcasm quite frequently. It's a bit refreshing to know that some of them do pick up on it and enjoy it themselves.

Oh, and I'm American. I'm not sure if sarcasm and irony were imported from the Brits, but if they were I owe them my gratitude.

My missus does ironying.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[bbradsby]

I find it rather depressing to see expat kids who have been here for years who can barely speak a word of thai, and i know of plenty.

Something about leading horses to water comes to mind.

It's good for expat teachers & parents to remember that the expat kids are hijacked victims of their parents' wants/needs for leaving the home country. They leave behind all friends, the home language, culture, comfort food... basically everything they know and love.

[Thai at Heart]

I find it rather depressing to see expat kids who have been here for years who can barely speak a word of thai, and i know of plenty.

Something about leading horses to water comes to mind.

It's good for expat teachers & parents to remember that the expat kids are hijacked victims of their parents' wants/needs for leaving the home country. They leave behind all friends, the home language, culture, comfort food... basically everything they know and love.

Hardly the case. They often get paid access to fabulous schools, great lifestyle and all the perceived benefits of overseas living. But many just let it pass them by.

[chrisinth]

Yes, apparently these students have families and friends that only speak English and everywhere they go in Bangkok the clerks and shopkeepers all speak fluent English as well. Hmm, now I certainly don't find that hard to believe.

Don't think you will see many international school educated kids as clerks and shopkeepers/workers in Bkk. Might get some, but not many.

You have completely misunderstood the comment and its ironic nature too. Back to school!

Thank you for that spr&q. See my post #12 on this thread; it was early and the caffine wasn't flowing as fast as it should have been.

[bbradsby]

I find it rather depressing to see expat kids who have been here for years who can barely speak a word of thai, and i know of plenty.

Something about leading horses to water comes to mind.

It's good for expat teachers & parents to remember that the expat kids are hijacked victims of their parents' wants/needs for leaving the home country. They leave behind all friends, the home language, culture, comfort food... basically everything they know and love.

Hardly the case. They often get paid access to fabulous schools, great lifestyle and all the perceived benefits of overseas living. But many just let it pass them by.

you 'hardly understand children. they could not care less that adults consider their school away from home nor their "lifestyles" to be "fabulous."

[redroo]

Glad too hear thay are learning english.

Will be offering them jobs soon...

No engish

no job.

Welcome to the new world of the internet.

[chrisinth]

Sounds like the the international school kids are in for more difficult "required" classes if they hold Thai passports. I know a family that moved to the US so that they could gain US citizenship and then happily came back and enrolled their kids at ISB, knowing that with their US passports, they would not have to take the tedious Thai language classes imposed on ISB students who hold Thai passports. For many of these Thai families, there is little incentive to learn Thai or have it as a principal language. They will work for multinational corporations in Thailand or abroad or own and manage factories with international clientele. The Thai language is useful if you want to work for a company that pays between 10-15,000 THB/month with no career development or real opportunity to develop as a professional (for the rest of your life). Thai is necessary if all your business is with Thais, in which case, you likely don't have a desirable position or future (given the economic realities in the Kingdom).

Yep, you should put that theory to people like Dhanin Chearavanont, Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Niti Osathanugrah or the many others who did OK with just the Thai language. Very interesting concept that if your career is planned for only Thailand you can only expect 10-15,000 THB/month.

Everyone of our office girls clears more than that, and yes, it is a Thai company and not one of them went to an international school. Bit of a misleading post I think.

What's the average salary in Thailand? That's great that in your particular case, your staff are paid more. How nice for them. I don't think you're likely to fit the description for the average boss in Thailand, however. For everyone one of your employees, I guarantee there are a thousand McDonald's employees. And we should touch upon the issue of salaries outside of Bangkok, because if you pay more than 15,000, you most certainly live in the capital.

Dhanin Chearavanont, Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Niti Osathanugrah

Do these people reflect the majority in the Kingdom?

Ah, the average salary, that makes it more clear. Without going into a pissing contest with you, it may help if you included that in your original post. As to the 3 persons mentioned, what have they got to do with the majority in the Kingdom? Again, something else omitted from your post.

Final question from me, what would be the average wage for a person graduating from an international school in Thailand? Really, I would be interested in this.

Oh, and for my location, not even close to the capital, sorry.

[Thai at Heart]

I find it rather depressing to see expat kids who have been here for years who can barely speak a word of thai, and i know of plenty.

Something about leading horses to water comes to mind.

It's good for expat teachers & parents to remember that the expat kids are hijacked victims of their parents' wants/needs for leaving the home country. They leave behind all friends, the home language, culture, comfort food... basically everything they know and love.

Hardly the case. They often get paid access to fabulous schools, great lifestyle and all the perceived benefits of overseas living. But many just let it pass them by.

you 'hardly understand children. they could not care less that adults consider their school away from home nor their "lifestyles" to be "fabulous."

You don't know how much and the benefits accrued by an expat on an true expat deal on comparison with staying home. 5 to 6 times monetary value of home wage at least.

House paid, expat pension paid, tax paid, private school paid, health insurance paid, utilities paid, driver provided, company car tax free, budget for family travel 400k per year.

40 gbp in the UK, becomes a 400k Thai baht per month lifestyle.

[bbradsby]

You don't know how much and the benefits accrued by an expat on an true expat deal on comparison with staying home. 5 to 6 times monetary value of home wage at least.

House paid, expat pension paid, tax paid, private school paid, health insurance paid, utilities paid, driver provided, company car tax free, budget for family travel 400k per year.

40 gbp in the UK, becomes a 400k Thai baht per month lifestyle.

uh, nothing in my post would support your statements. But they're completely off-the-subject anyway. This thread is about the children.

[TongueThaied]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

[simon43]

IMHO, if you attend any school in Thailand - whether government, private or international, you should be given the chance to learn, practice and speak Thai, - and that applies to non-Thai students as well.

What about introducing a rule for the international schools that if the day of the week has an 's' in it, then Thai language is spoken on that day - and not English!

I''m assuming that the schools are not open at the weekend

Simon

[nikster]

Love it. Usually we get to complain about the lack of English skills of the Thai kids. Now we get to complain about their lack ot Thai, too! Really shows how absurd it all is.

Brought to you by the "gotta complain about something" brigade...

[brianP]

Looks like Thailand is turning into a latch-key money oriented upper society. Just like in the US where all the parents are working long hours and leave the kids with a nanny and see them only first thing in the morning and late at night. This was the start of the erosion of Family and procuring materials and money the new priority. These Thai students indoctrinated with English and western thinking will have the same trouble us foreigners do in un-learning our brains life long training in cognitive concepts and re-train our minds to learn differently.

I see my 9 year old learn and master Thai so easily as i stumble and stutter. Shows what an intelligent language Thai is and how humbling it is to get a grasp of.

[SABloke]

IMHO, if you attend any school in Thailand - whether government, private or international, you should be given the chance to learn, practice and speak Thai, - and that applies to non-Thai students as well.

What about introducing a rule for the international schools that if the day of the week has an 's' in it, then Thai language is spoken on that day - and not English!

I''m assuming that the schools are not open at the weekend

Simon

uh... TueSday, WedneSday, ThurSday

[SuneeTH]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

"The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people."

Watch your mouth.

If you do not respect me, at least you respect our great king RamKhamhaeng the GREAT who inverted the Thai alphabet on his own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Khamhaeng

[SABloke]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

"The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people."

Watch your mouth.

If you do not respect me, at least you respect our great king RamKhamhaeng the GREAT who inverted the Thai alphabet on his own.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ram_Khamhaeng

You are clearly a blind follower. Next time you reference a source to support your point, please read it thoroughly.

"Recent scholarship has cast doubt on his role, however, noting that much of the information relating to his rule may have been fabricated in the 19th century in order to legitimize the Siamese state in the face of colonial threats."

[SuneeTH]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

"The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people."

Watch your mouth.

If you do not respect me, at least you respect our great king RamKhamhaeng the GREAT who inverted the Thai alphabet on his own.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ram_Khamhaeng

You are clearly a blind follower. Next time you reference a source to support your point, please read it thoroughly.

"Recent scholarship has cast doubt on his role, however, noting that much of the information relating to his rule may have been fabricated in the 19th century in order to legitimize the Siamese state in the face of colonial threats."

You are blind too, or perhaps you do not understand English.

"most Thai scholars still hold to the idea of the inscription's authenticity"

[Scott]

A discussion of the historical significance of King Ramkhamheng's stele is off-topic. If historians can't agree, then I doubt it will be settled here.

Please stick to the current topic.

[PaullyW]

Many years ago I had a friend who's kid had been in the international school system in Bkk. At 17 years old he was good on English speaking, good at written english, good at spoken Thai but could hardy read or write Thai. Thats not a good education in my thinking

Everyone is missing the actual language factors. In fact, Thai -- especially the writing/reading -- is an order of magnitude harder to become proficient in than is English. Linguistic studies offer that Thai, even when spoken as a native language, requires comparatively (with many other languages) more time for children to become proficient in.

This is especially true where the reading and writing are concerned as Thai reading and writing is really quite a mess once you step back from it and try to see it as objectively as possible.

The written script is chock-full of irregularities (not unlike English, but probably by a (much) higher percentage),

writing most often (when done as per Thai traditional standards) does not offer words breaks (spaces), so readers of Thai must know all vocabularies (since also it's often nearly impossible to pronounce a new Thai word due to so many words not following the complex spelling rules); to watch native Thai speakers/readers/writers reading is like watching someone performing brain surgery as Thai requires so much brain concentration

With respect to speaking Thai, well, it's rather dissimilar from English, so it might be frustrating for young people to learn both if they are not interested in language. The Asian languages, as a whole, are more similar to each other than English is to Thai, for example.

Breadth of information is another important area. I would imagine that these kids are enamored with the sheer volume of information that is in English which could lessen their interest for Thai as Thai language is known to be bereft of written works as compared to English, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, most all European languages, etc. With respect to written texts, Thai could almost be seen as a dead language. If you remove the Thai language books that were just translations of works from English and other languages, you'd have a rather paltry set of texts. And, those of us who can read Thai (and many who can't) are aware that the Thai language web is critically lacking as compared to other languages and especially English.

Language of education itself. Thai kids must at some point become aware of the advantages of learning certain kinds of subjects (any science, philosophy, for example) through English rather than doing the same through Thai. The reasons for this are apparent as English evolved to incorporate these concepts/studies more precisely than Thai really could hope to.

Thai is a beautiful language, but it is really ill-suited, in my opinion, to many modern activities. If these kids want to express emotions of the heart, "jai", or express precision in their respect for social structure, then they can use Thai.

*Sent from mobile device; apologies for brevity or lack thereof and/or any mistakes.

Edited July 14, 2012 by PaullyW

[buhi]

Many years ago I had a friend who's kid had been in the international school system in Bkk. At 17 years old he was good on English speaking, good at written english, good at spoken Thai but could hardy read or write Thai. Thats not a good education in my thinking

Everyone is missing the actual language factors. In fact, Thai -- especially the writing/reading -- is an order of magnitude harder to become proficient in than is English. Linguistic studies offer that Thai, even when spoken as a native language, requires comparatively (with many other languages) more time for children to become proficient in.

This is especially true where the reading and writing are concerned as Thai reading and writing is really quite a mess once you step back from it and try to see it as objectively as possible.

The written script is chock-full of irregularities (not unlike English, but probably by a (much) higher percentage),

writing most often (when done as per Thai traditional standards) does not offer words breaks (spaces), so readers of Thai must know all vocabularies (since also it's often nearly impossible to pronounce a new Thai word due to so many words not following the complex spelling rules); to watch native Thai speakers/readers/writers reading is like watching someone performing brain surgery as Thai requires so much brain concentration

With respect to speaking Thai, well, it's rather dissimilar from English, so it might be frustrating for young people to learn both if they are not interested in language. The Asian languages, as a whole, are more similar to each other than English is to Thai, for example.

Breadth of information is another important area. I would imagine that these kids are enamored with the sheer volume of information that is in English which could lessen their interest for Thai as Thai language is known to be bereft of written works as compared to English, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, most all European languages, etc. With respect to written texts, Thai could almost be seen as a dead language. If you remove the Thai language books that were just translations of works from English and other languages, you'd have a rather paltry set of texts. And, those of us who can read Thai (and many who can't) are aware that the Thai language web is critically lacking as compared to other languages and especially English.

Language of education itself. Thai kids must at some point become aware of the advantages of learning certain kinds of subjects (any science, philosophy, for example) through English rather than doing the same through Thai. The reasons for this are apparent as English evolved to incorporate these concepts/studies more precisely than Thai really could hope to.

Thai is a beautiful language, but it is really ill-suited, in my opinion, to many modern activities. If these kids want to express emotions of the heart, "jai", or express precision in their respect for social structure, then they can use Thai.

*Sent from mobile device; apologies for brevity or lack thereof and/or any mistakes.

Perhap "Lost Without Translation" would best sum up Thai education. Where are all the standard books needed for a career? They have to be translated into Thai and translation poses hazards.

Most academic works are written in English or any other language than Thai.

Recently Bangkok Patana published the Universities that had accepted applications from this year's leavers, most were for universities abroard, very few wished to continue their studies at a Thai institute. The reason why is obvious a Thai degree is not worth the paper it is written on.. OK if you have a Thai degree and the right connections in Thailand , then you will get the job. Try a Thai degree when applying outside of Thailand.

Edited July 14, 2012 by buhi

[simon43]

uh... TueSday, WedneSday, ThurSday

Oops - I meant 't'

Simon

[Ferangled]

Hi Ferangled:

A: I'm not back tracking, I'm clarifying.

B: the reason we ask ( ok I accept insist was the wrong word) parents to speak their home language at home is because sometimes parents feel it is better to only speak English at home, to the detriment of their home language. No one is blaming parents for anything or passing the buck. I am responsible for children's learning and that learning can take place in English in school and be reinforced at home in whichever language is best suited to the child. That language is not always English.

C: yeah sorry I messed up your post. My phone is not the best vehicle for this forum.

D: I have no idea what boarding schools do, I've never worked in one.

Fair enough, sorry for attacking your post, it just struck a chord with a concerned parent of 3 having not the best day!

My firm belief is that for students to get the best out of their education both parents and teachers have to be working on the same page, especially when it come to languages. I must say that my eldest is thoroughly enjoying school here, in a split Thai/ English system, and seems to be doing very well... like I say she's certainly better with her Thai than I am, although they do say you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

[edgarfriendly]

Can't read or write their parents' language. Just a dam_n shame, the incredible depth and breadth of the native literature that will be unavailable to them. Their brains are probably being horribly altered at these schools too, what with those wicked "critical thinking" and "analytical skills" being indoctrinated into them.

****ing foreigners.

Actually I can read and write in Thai....

can you write anything that is of interest to thais in thai?

of would they prefer to see it in pictures and then only for a second cos puaat hua laeow!!

personally i think the thai language is whats holding this nation back.

its like cave langauge.

Ugh!

Goh!

Eeh!

Wa!

Etc...

the sooner the people are able to read decent text books the sooner they will stop fearing ghosts, knowledge, and anything not 'thai'

like logic, consideration & appreciation over greed, ignorance & selfishness.

maybe in another 2555 yrs.... if the chinese dont forbid it and call it the law.

[edgarfriendly]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

"The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people."

Watch your mouth.

If you do not respect me, at least you respect our great king RamKhamhaeng the GREAT who inverted the Thai alphabet on his own.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ram_Khamhaeng

You are clearly a blind follower. Next time you reference a source to support your point, please read it thoroughly.

"Recent scholarship has cast doubt on his role, however, noting that much of the information relating to his rule may have been fabricated in the 19th century in order to legitimize the Siamese state in the face of colonial threats."

You are blind too, or perhaps you do not understand English.

"most Thai scholars still hold to the idea of the inscription's authenticity"

And where were these 'most Thai scholars' educated??

and isnt the point of the article the absolutely shocking level of understanding & CRITICAL ANALYSIS displayed by locally educated people...

Quick, defend the glaring truth with superstition & 'most Thai people believe.......'

ghosts

lying to get ahead

stealing to get ahead

i'll stop now though i could go in for pages!

[edgarfriendly]

deleted by poster....waste of time

Edited July 14, 2012 by edgarfriendly

[SOEYCHANLOY]

Nevertheless, she believes Thai youngsters who have been overseas since childhood will naturally struggle with Thai. It must seem foreign to them, she says.

Another display of extreme ignorance, that is all too common here.

Abbisit Vejajiwa was born and raised in the UK, went to Eaton and Oxford (where I'm pretty sure they don't teach Thai) and is one of the

most eloquent Thai language speakers in the country.

There is another great man, the very revered 'Father', who was born abroad, (USA ?) and subsequently raised and schooled for a good part of his childhood in Switzerland until he was 19, if I remember correctly, and he certainly seems to have had no problem struggling with Thai.

yes! you are right. It is just that the detail showing how limited are thai students... They cant speak more than 1 language an a half per life.

Me i speak 7

Sent from my GT-S5830T using Thaivisa Connect App

[travelmann]

Lucky kids! The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people. Knowledge is power and the government is effectively able to control knowledge solely because of the language barrier. Frankly, I suspect that the folks at the top who so zealously guard "culture" are really guarding their power and elite status.

"The Thai language and alphabet is an informational prison for the Thai people."

Watch your mouth.

If you do not respect me, at least you respect our great king RamKhamhaeng the GREAT who inverted the Thai alphabet on his own.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ram_Khamhaeng

You are clearly a blind follower. Next time you reference a source to support your point, please read it thoroughly.

"Recent scholarship has cast doubt on his role, however, noting that much of the information relating to his rule may have been fabricated in the 19th century in order to legitimize the Siamese state in the face of colonial threats."

You are blind too, or perhaps you do not understand English.

"most Thai scholars still hold to the idea of the inscription's authenticity"

Doesnt mean its correct though does it? Some people think the moon is made of cheese.............I see no difference............everyone knows its made of milk.

Must be hard for Thais like yourself not to understand why us farangs dont roll over and soak up the brainwashing that we perceive here.

I dont mean this with any offence but it must be odd coming on a forum like this and seeing what you have been taught is not accepted by outsiders.

[tominbkk]

IMHO, if you attend any school in Thailand - whether government, private or international, you should be given the chance to learn, practice and speak Thai, - and that applies to non-Thai students as well.

Simon

MOE requires that all students with thai passport or nationality must study Thai at least five hours a week. for non-thais it is optional.

[Arkady]

The OP has a point.

I've heard in the past that Thai children in International schools aren't up to par in Thai because the schools are set up initially for foreign children here while there parents are on medium term assignments, where the mandatory minimum of Thai being taught is perfectly reasonable as the ability to read/write in Thai is not exactly useful in other countries.

This has a downside for Thai children where, if they fail to get into a University abroad (either through poor exam results or their parents not being able to meet the financial requirements of the student visa, which can be quite significant now that, for instance, in the UK, student visas no longer give the right to work part-time), they can often find that their Thai language ability isn't sufficient for getting a University place at the better Universities in Thailand.

That is true. Until the mid 90s there were very few international schools in Thailand and it was illegal for them to accept Thai children unless the parents could prove they kids had already been studying abroad, e.g. children of Thai diplomats etc, making it hard for them adapt to a Thai school. Of course some presented fake documents and the schools took some rich Thai kids who had never been abroad but by and large the schools were the preserve of expat children. Then they deregulated, started issuing licenses to anyone who could pay and removed the restriction on Thai students completely. Unfortunately the old regulations about Thai curriculum were never changed and the major international schools still provide an education targeted solely at expat kids with no proper provision for Thai kids who need to be proficient in Thai. This is a far cry from the English medium schools in Hong Kong that cater almost exclusively for local students. Hong Kong also has international schools for expat children that are similar to Thai international schools but Thailand doesn't have English medium schools for Thai kids. Perhaps ABAC at the tertiary level is the closest thing.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Arkady

[Narratio]

The article at the start of this thread was written by a 15 year old girl who studies in an international school.

Based upon my infrequent conversations with teenagers, that fact alone impresses the heck out of me. Did she hit all the areas, all the sub topics on the subject of international schools in Thailand? No. Did she lay out all of the pro's along with the con's of language education or achieve a balanced view point? No. But as an example of writing skills, it was rather good.

My daughter is 10, speaks English at school and to the English half of our Family, She speaks Thai with her Thai friends and the Thai half of our family. She picked up a smattering Cantonese Chinese from a Chinese-Thai uncle and now also learns Chinese at school. At no time has she had any problems communicating with anybody, anywhere on any subject a 10 year old can come up with. So I have no fears or worries on this subject.

I suspect the writer of the original article has no real worries. I do see it as another item to be listed on her resume for when she enters the job market, which will be quite soon. And good luck to her for it.