14 Confirmed Dead After Shooting At Batman Movie Premiere In Denver: Police

[Credo]

I hope to hear more about his motivation in the shooting. There is no justification in what this guy has done, but the more we can learn about people like this, the better we will be at preventing it.

[Jingthing]

Some new information about the incident and shooter:

More evidence coming out that his automatic weapon JAMMED meaning there were about many shots from it he wasn't able to take as he had to switch to a rifle and handgun.

A great reason to BAN automatic weapons nationally, both new ones and existing ones. What if it HADN'T jammed? Previous legislation about automatic weapons only dealt with NEW sales of them.

If machine guns are banned, what is the problem with banning automatic weapons? I seriously doubt the "founding fathers" even imaged these kinds of weapons.

Also he was dressed in SWAT TEAM gear. Now it appears he did plan to escape posing as a swat team member. He did not surrender on his own accord. He was confronted because there were some irregularities in his swat team kit and then he surrendered. I wonder where he had intended to escape to?

Edited July 23, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

A machine gun is automatic and automatic weapons are already banned. He had semi-automatic weapons which means that every time that you pull the trigger the weapon fires. Most weapons - including pistols - are semi-automatic these days and it is very unlikely that they will be banned.

[transam]

A machine gun is automatic and automatic weapons are already banned. He had semi-automatic weapons which means that every time that you pull the trigger the weapon fires. Most weapons - including pistols - are semi-automatic these days and it is very unlikely that they will be banned.

I have seen vids of auto rifles (M16 etc) being used for recreation in the USA. Revolvers are not semi auto.

[Ulysses G.]

OK, it is possible to own an automatic weapon in some states if you have a Class III Machinegun Dealer License, but they are very restricted and even most firearms dealers do not have them.

- must be a U.S. citizen over 21 years old.

- must live in a state that allows Class 3 weapons.

- must be clear of any felonies as verified by an F.B.I. background check.

- must submit a fingerprint card and two passport photos, to be kept on file by the BATF. (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms)

- must obtain a signature from your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer verifying that you have no felony indictments pending against you, and are mentally stable.

- must pay a one-time federal tax for each NFA weapon purchased.

By the way, many "M16s" are actually semi-automatic versions called an AR 15 that looks exactly the same.

Many pistols are semi-automatic and a double action revolver does not need to be cocked in between rounds which means it is pretty much the same thing. There are semi-automatic revolvers and there are also some revolvers that need to be cocked in between rounds.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[ttelise]

OK, it is possible to own an automatic weapon in some states if you have a Class III Machinegun Dealer License, but they are very restricted and even most firearms dealers do not have them.

- must be a U.S. citizen over 21 years old.

- must live in a state that allows Class 3 weapons.

- must be clear of any felonies as verified by an F.B.I. background check.

- must submit a fingerprint card and two passport photos, to be kept on file by the BATF. (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms)

- must obtain a signature from your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer verifying that you have no felony indictments pending against you, and are mentally stable.

- must pay a one-time federal tax for each NFA weapon purchased.

By the way, many "M16s" are actually semi-automatic versions called an AR 15 that looks exactly the same.

Many pistols are semi-automatic and a double action revolver does not need to be cocked in between rounds which means it is pretty much the same thing. There are semi-automatic revolvers and there are also some revolvers that need to be cocked in between rounds.

Actually, it is quiet easy to get Class 3 or machine gun in most states. I think only maybe 4 or 5 do not allow. Basically just be over 21 and not a felon. Some stares apparenty treat Machine Guns as Class II. I know of many people with automatic weapons. Not sure if they did simple mods or bought them that way. One has 50 cal and grenade launcher.

"How to Own Class III Weapons

Basic Guidelines

Owning a class 3 weapon (machine gun / silencer) is relatively simple. There are several rules and regulations that individuals must comply with. They are very simple and one should not be intimidated by paperwork. First let me address a few questions, before you ask them."

http://www.bodermansports.com/html/nfa_states.html

[ttelise]

Nice selection of weapons from online dealer in Texas. Love me some M60 action for squirrel or how about a Vickers MK1 if you need to take down a small plane that us just driving you nutts. The M16s, Uzis and AK47s that they sell seem a bit like child's play compared to some if their selection.

http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/autos?sz=800x600

[Ulysses G.]

Owning a class 3 weapon (machine gun / silencer) is relatively simple. http://www.bodermans...nfa_states.html

Not so simple and very expensive.

You may only own a machine gun that was manufactured and registered with the BATF before May 19, 1986. Weapons manufactured after that date are restricted for Military and Law Enforcement use only.

Economics 101, the law of supply and demand should start coming to mind by now. This is why these weapons are somewhat “pricey”, when compared to current production weapons. “Simply”, the reserves not being available, controlled commodities always make for an excellent investment. The price is only going one place, Up!

To obtain an NFA weapon, you must first select one. The reason is, forms are required to transfer the weapon from seller to buyer, requiring specific information. There are several types of forms to accommodate these transfers. A form “3”, accommodates dealer to dealer transfers (Class 3, in or out of state). A form “4”, accommodates dealer to individual transfers, within the state. Unlicensed individuals may not transfer class 3 weapons directly into their state. An active Class 3 license is required to execute the transfer. If you hold an active standard FFL, you may transfer the weapon in directly, however the law enforcement signature, photographs, and fingerprint cards are still required, as well as the $200 FET.

And so on....

http://www.westernfi...t=02&sz=800x600

Edited July 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[ttelise]

Owning a class 3 weapon (machine gun / silencer) is relatively simple. http://www.bodermans...nfa_states.html

Not so simple and very expensive.

You may only own a machine gun that was manufactured and registered with the BATF before May 19, 1986. Weapons manufactured after that date are restricted for Military and Law Enforcement use only.

Economics 101, the law of supply and demand should start coming to mind by now. This is why these weapons are somewhat “pricey”, when compared to current production weapons. “Simply”, the reserves not being available, controlled commodities always make for an excellent investment. The price is only going one place, Up!

To obtain an NFA weapon, you must first select one. The reason is, forms are required to transfer the weapon from seller to buyer, requiring specific information. There are several types of forms to accommodate these transfers. A form “3”, accommodates dealer to dealer transfers (Class 3, in or out of state). A form “4”, accommodates dealer to individual transfers, within the state. Unlicensed individuals may not transfer class 3 weapons directly into their state. An active Class 3 license is required to execute the transfer. If you hold an active standard FFL, you may transfer the weapon in directly, however the law enforcement signature, photographs, and fingerprint cards are still required, as well as the $200 FET.

And so on....

http://www.westernfi...t=02&sz=800x600

Basically, if you legally qualify for a hand gun, you can get full auto license. The $200 fee is no big deal, but the 3 to 6 month wait for processing is a good thing. Prices are relevant and some AK models are pretty cheap. Being expensive and easy to get are different things.

Nevertheless, the semi auto AKs, M4s, AR15s and etc. are dangerous enough, cheap and can be picked up every weekend without a background check or waiting period.

[Ulysses G.]

It is not easy get a machine gun legally despite the sales brochure trying to lure high-rolling, legally eligible customers.

Since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. If they were easy to obtain, it stands to reason that there would be at least a few crimes committed by civilians since 1934.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I meant semi automatic. Like I said before, I'm not a gun person.

Anyway, the NRA meme that the public should be armed to stop madmen like Orange Haired Joker was dealt a blow by ... Orange Haired Joker. Because he was dressed in full SWAT armor plus. Mark my words ... watch for copycats the next time PREDICTABLY there is a mass murdering shooter in America. People are so intimidated by the NRA and their total PAC power, yes even President Obama, that there will no call for even modest reforms to control these guns.

What distinguished Holmes wasn’t his offense. It was his defense. At Columbine, Harris and Klebold did their damage in T-shirts and cargo pants. Cho and Loughner wore sweatshirts. Hasan was gunned down in his Army uniform.

Holmes’ outfit blew these jokers away. He wore a

. He was so well equipped that if anyone in that theater had tried what the National Rifle Association recommends—drawing a firearm to stop the carnage—that person would have been dead meat. Holmes didn’t just kill a dozen people. He killed the NRA’s answer to gun violence.

http://www.slate.com...e_the_nra_.html

Edited July 23, 2012 by Jingthing

[electau]

The US needs to amend its constitution to remove the clause(s) on the right to bear arms and own them. This of course will never happen due to the US political system and the way it operates.

The undertakers will be laughing all the way to the bank. Remember, life is dear, death is cheap.

Edited July 23, 2012 by electau

[Credo]

It will not happen because that clause was included in the constitution to provide citizens the right to protect themselves against an oppressive government.

The constitution does not way what constitutes arms, that is up to the Courts, specifically the Supreme Court to decide. They can determine whether automatic or semi-automatic weapons are permitted.

[ttelise]

It is not easy get a machine gun legally despite the sales brochure trying to lure high-rolling, legally eligible customers.

Since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. If they were easy to obtain, it stands to reason that there would be at least a few crimes committed by civilians since 1934.

Okay, so you in Thailand know better than everyone here. As I said before I have many friends with AKs, ARs, M4s and etc. Most of them are fully auto and I have shot one of the AKs several times.

Another guy I know, since 1984ish, is kind if kooky and was even stick piling diesel fuel and food for Jan. 1, 2000, and was ready to barricade himself in and defend his property. This guys have a walk in gun safe and has a scareface M16 with grenade launcher, a slew of machine guns and a 50 cal. fully automatic. He bought the 50 cal after a dic dud LASIK surgery and put the tool together backwards and obliterated one of his eyes causing him to require a cornea transplant. Anyway, this dude is a survivalist who took way too much LSD when younger and he has a full arsenal and lives in the middle of a big city.

If this dude can get a 50 cal machine gun, any budy can.

[ttelise]

It is not easy get a machine gun legally despite the sales brochure trying to lure high-rolling, legally eligible customers.

Since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. If they were easy to obtain, it stands to reason that there would be at least a few crimes committed by civilians since 1934.

I agree most criminals use something easy to conceal like a pistol and usually do t walk around with an assault rifle stuffed down their pants.

Here us some data right before the 1994 Clinton ban on Assault weapons. I have seen numbers indicating that crimes committed with assault weapons fell by 20% in 1995 or first year after ban.

Also, one need only search videos on Web and see every Mexican thug and his brother, his cousin and his momma blasting fully auto rifles and pistol into the air or at people. Same disturbing stuff if you wanna see it and they are getting these things from Texas mostly so must be pretty easy to obtain.

Crime gun traces performed by ATF showed that between 1986 and 1992, assault weapons were traced to 1,578 murders, 940 assaults, 224 robberies, and more than 4,500 narcotics arrests.6 Because only a fraction of the guns used in crime are traced by the ATF, these figures understate the criminal use of these guns. The real number of crimes committed with assault weapons may be up to ten times higher.7 Moreover, before the federal ban, assault weapons were used in some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. For example:

The McDonald's shooting - On July 18, 1984, James Huberty killed 21 people and wounded 19 others in a San Ysidro, California, McDonald's using an UZI assault pistol and a shotgun.8

The Stockton schoolyard massacre - On January 17, 1989, Patrick Purdy killed 5 small children and wounded 29 others and a teacher at the Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, California, using a semiautomatic AK-47 assault rifle imported from China. That weapon had been purchased from a gun dealer in Oregon and was equipped with a 75-round "drum" magazine. Purdy shot 106 rounds in less than 2 minutes.9

The Louisville, Kentucky, workplace massacre - On September 14, 1989, Joseph Wesbecker killed 7 people and wounded 13 others at his former place of work in Louisville, Kentucky, before taking his own life. Mr. Wesbecker was armed with an AK-47 rifle, two MAC-11 assault pistols, and a duffle-bag full of ammunition.10

The CIA headquarters shootings - On January 25, 1993, Pakistani national Mir Aimal Kasi killed 2 CIA employees and wounded 3 others outside the entrance to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. Kasi used a Chinese-made semiautomatic AK-47 assault rifle equipped with a 30-round magazine purchased from a Northern Virginia gun store.11

The Branch-Davidian standoff in Waco, Texas - On February 28, 1993, while attempting to serve federal search and arrest warrants at the Branch-Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, four ATF special agents were killed and 16 others were wounded with an arsenal of assault weapons. According to a federal affidavit, the cult had accumulated at least the following assault weapons: 123 AR-15s, 44 AK-47s, 2 Barrett .50 calibers, 2 Street Sweepers, an unknown number of MAC-10 and MAC-11s, 20 100-round drum magazines, and 260 large-capacity banana clips. The weapons were bought legally from gun dealers and at gun shows.12

The San Francisco Pettit & Martin shootings - On July 1, 1993, Gian Luigi Ferri killed 8 people and wounded 6 others at the San Francisco law offices of Pettit & Martin and other offices at 101 California Street. Ferri used two TEC-DC9 assault pistols with 50-round magazines. These weapons had been purchased from a pawnshop and a gun show in Nevada.

The firepower of assault weapons makes them especially desired by violent criminals and especially lethal in their hands. Prior to the Act, although assault weapons constituted less than 1% of the guns in circulation,14 they were a far higher percentage of the guns used in crime. ATF's analysis of guns traced to crime showed that assault weapons "are preferred by criminals over law abiding citizens eight to one. ... Access to them shifts the balance of power to the lawless."

[Ulysses G.]

"Assault weapons" does not translated as automatic weapons. The pejorative term is used by gun control advocates, but really has little meaning. The weapons that are pointed to as "assault weapons" are usually semi-automatic which describes most of the guns that people use. There is no way that semi-automatic weapons are going to be banned.

[Ulysses G.]

It is not easy get a machine gun legally despite the sales brochure trying to lure high-rolling, legally eligible customers.

Since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. If they were easy to obtain, it stands to reason that there would be at least a few crimes committed by civilians since 1934.

Okay, so you in Thailand know better than everyone here. As I said before I have many friends with AKs, ARs, M4s and etc. Most of them are fully auto and I have shot one of the AKs several times.

It sounds like you know a lot of nuts. What a surprise. I lived in the US for many years and knew lots of gun owners when I lived in the South and none of them had automatic weapons.

As I said before, since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. That pretty much says it all about how easily available they are.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[ttelise]

It is not easy get a machine gun legally despite the sales brochure trying to lure high-rolling, legally eligible customers.

Since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. If they were easy to obtain, it stands to reason that there would be at least a few crimes committed by civilians since 1934.

Okay, so you in Thailand know better than everyone here. As I said before I have many friends with AKs, ARs, M4s and etc. Most of them are fully auto and I have shot one of the AKs several times.

It sounds like you know a lot of nuts. What a surprise. I lived in the US for many years and knew lots of gun owners when I lived in the South and none of them had automatic weapons.

As I said before, since 1934, only one legally owned machinegun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. That pretty much says it all about how easily available they are.

Yep, I have a lot of eccentric friends. I don't discriminate.

I doubt criminals and drug dealers care much about registering their automatic weapons so I am not surprised that criminals are using unregistered automatic weapons. They don't want the guns traced back to them . . .

[Ulysses G.]

Hence the saying, "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

[ttelise]

"Assault weapons" does not translated as automatic weapons. The pejorative term is used by gun control advocates, but really has little meaning. The weapons that are pointed to as "assault weapons" are usually semi-automatic which describes most of the guns that people use. There is no way that semi-automatic weapons are going to be banned.

Haha, last post as this is tiresome, but you keep changing subject to suit your stance.

My original point was that Assault Rifles if any type have no place in society.

Second point, I merely disagreed with your statement that purchasing an automatic weapon was a very difficult process. Other than what you say, every gun shop selling them and based on my personal experience with friends owning then, they are as easy to obtain LEGALLy as a handgun provided you don't have a felony record and most I know don't think twice about the cost which is basically a week at St. Johns.

The only one legally registered used in a crime is silly. They are used primarily by drug dealers and cartels. Drug dealers and criminals probably could care less about registering their guns to make them legal and easy to trace. Too funny.

[Ulysses G.]

The only one legally registered used in a crime is silly.

Never the less, it is a fact, unlike all the questionable "personal experiences" that you use to jusify your stance - which are very different from my own.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[rice555]

Hello All, ttelise, your #2 point in post #110 is WRONG, you have to do the

paperwork/fingerprints/tax every time you buy a class 3 item, unlike a purchase

handgun with just filling out a form and a waiting period(by state laws).

When you talk about drug dealers and cartels, is this in US or other countries?

Do you have info/figures as to the weapon being "semi" or "full auto"?

Now back to the Nut Job in CO.

rice555

[Jingthing]

Hence the saying, "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

Hence the tired old propaganda of the NRA ...

[folium]

The really sad thing about the Aurora killings is that it comes as no surprise. Nor will the next one, nor the next.

Allowing civilians to buy military style weapons, whether fully or "just" semi-automatic, has no sane rationale. Why does a civilian need a Barrett .50 sniper rifle, which is purely designed to kill people at extreme ranges (as seen in Iraq, Afghan and County Armagh.

Similarly "assault weapons" is not a pejorative term merely an accurate description of military weapons designed to make an assault more effective in terms of sippressive fire and killing ability. They were designed as a step up from the bolt action weapons. Again no defensive or hunting function intended.

The old cliche that "countries get the politicians they deserve" can sadly be rewritten about gun crime and gun laws.

It is ironic that many people who criticize certain religions as medieval throwbacks are in complete agreement and will brook no change to a piece of 18 th century legislation drafted in a very different world to today's!

Contrary to some people's opinions I am hardly some pinko, bleeding-heart type having carried weapons throughout my career. Put simply I have a dread of amateurs with weapons, especially military grade weapons. Such an ease of availability compared to say the UK does the US few favors and we will all be commenting on mass gun killings in the USA for decades to come. What a tragedy....

[Jingthing]

Yep, that's the way it is.

And the political structure is dysfunctional as well around this.

Obama probably would WANT to try to do something about this but he correctly feels that to even say one word in support of gun control means automatically conceding his reelection. So literally his hands are tied ...

[flying]

As I said before I have many friends with AKs, ARs, M4s and etc. Most of them are fully auto and I have shot one of the AKs several times.

Yep, I have a lot of eccentric friends. I don't discriminate.

I doubt criminals and drug dealers care much about registering their automatic weapons so I am not surprised that criminals are using unregistered automatic weapons. They don't want the guns traced back to them . . .

Sorry but your full of it.

Your pal with the AK may have illegally modified it but it was not sold that way...period

I have shot competitively all my life & in many States at many levels.

Full auto are not common as you say.

Full auto cannot even be bought they may be transferred but only after a high fee &

much more thorough background check

IF your State allows it at all.

Edited July 24, 2012 by flying

[flying]

They can determine whether automatic or semi-automatic weapons are permitted.

Any gun that fires one bullet at a time is semi auto

If you ban semi auto you need to ban everything even western six shooters

[transam]

They can determine whether automatic or semi-automatic weapons are permitted.

Any gun that fires one bullet at a time is semi auto

If you ban semi auto you need to ban everything even western six shooters

A revolver is not semi-auto. It requires man to do the next shot.

[Jingthing]

Again I know nothing about guns and I don't want to know anything about guns. However, it's clear something is rotten in a country where politicians can't even have a serious discussion about measures that could be taken to reduce gun related crimes without risking their entire careers.

[flying]

They can determine whether automatic or semi-automatic weapons are permitted.

Any gun that fires one bullet at a time is semi auto

If you ban semi auto you need to ban everything even western six shooters

A revolver is not semi-auto. It requires man to do the next shot.

Technically your describing single action vs double action

All guns require a man to pull a trigger

But as an aside a six shooter can be shot as fast as anything available.

Just watch Bob Munden on you tube

Edited July 24, 2012 by flying