Ukba Needs To Kick Out A Few People, Might This Make It Harder To Get A Visa For Our Loved Ones?

[beano2274]

The UKBA needs to have more authority and be able to kick those out who do not have the right visas and do it immediately, and comments about kids being in detention centres is such a pity, if their parents had the correct paperwork they would not be there, so blame the parents not the people who stick them there.

Where can they send them back too? when they have shredded their passports and countries like China deliberately delay the process of supplying replacement documents.

If you know what country they came from tell that country you will be seeking compensation for the costs involved, a bit of pressure is all that is required, not hard really.

And the UK wants to start saying "No" a bit more often.

I hate the "my great great great grandfather was English, so I want to stay in England as I am part English"

[RAZZELL]

Excellent article:

http://www.dailymail...ont-let-us.html

RAZZ

Edited July 24, 2012 by RAZZELL

[7by7]

Transam, I find your attitude incomprehensible............

............If you know of a crime and fail to report it, then you are part of the problem!

You can think what you like but l am not a grass..........

........Today l read in yahoo news that 60,000 migrant uni students are bogus, and are likely working illegally doing natives out of work. WHO IS LETTING THEM IN ?

They are getting in on legitimate visas, and then breaking the conditions of those visas or overstaying; or they are obtaining their student visas fraudulently.

They are remaining because of the enforcement problems spoken of by both Eff1n2ret and theoldgit.

But before they can be caught and attempts made to remove them, they have to be found; like all illegals. To catch them, the police and UKBA rely on information from the public.

But you are "not a grass" so wont help by providing information.

As you are "not a grass" we have to assume that were you to witness an old lady being mugged in the street you would not call the police or take any other action because you are "not a grass."

Ridiculous? No more so than refusing to report immigration crime because you are "not a grass."

But as many of your posts show that you live in Thailand (legitimately with a visa, or bending the rules as a visa runner?) you don't have any current direct experience of this, do you? I wonder how much of your stated knowledge of people working illegally and others employing illegal workers is out of date. Most, if not all, I suspect.

This is a serious problem. Not just for the UK economy but because of the knee jerk reactions from this and past governments which effects family migration. In my personal opinion it is no place for ego building posts from people who have watched too many Sweeney repeats!

[RAZZELL]

Seems Transam has "flexible" morals

RAZZ

[beano2274]

I remember thinking about grassing someone up who claims disability allowance from the UK, but owns a business here, hebut uses an address in another country to claim, but how many of the readers on here actually do something like that, or claim heating costs, but live in Thailand over Winter.

[transam]

Transam, I find your attitude incomprehensible............

............If you know of a crime and fail to report it, then you are part of the problem!

You can think what you like but l am not a grass..........

........Today l read in yahoo news that 60,000 migrant uni students are bogus, and are likely working illegally doing natives out of work. WHO IS LETTING THEM IN ?

They are getting in on legitimate visas, and then breaking the conditions of those visas or overstaying; or they are obtaining their student visas fraudulently.

They are remaining because if the enforcement problems spoken of by both Eff1n2ret and theoldgit.

But before they can be caught and attempts made to remove them, they have to be found; like all illegals. To catch them, the police and UKBA rely on information from the public.

But you are "not a grass" so wont help by providing information.

As you are "not a grass" we have to assume that were you to witness an old lady being mugged in the street you would not call the police or take any other action because you are "not a grass."

Ridiculous? No more so than refusing to report immigration crime because you are "not a grass."

But as many of your posts show that you live in Thailand (legitimately with a visa, or bending the rules as a visa runner?) you don't have any current direct experience of this, do you? I wonder how much of your stated knowledge of people working illegally and others employing illegal workers is out of date. Most, if not all, I suspect.

This is a serious problem. Not just for the UK economy but because of the knee jerk reactions from this and past governments which effects family migration. In my personal opinion it is no place for ego building posts from people who have watched too many Sweeney repeats!

I can put my views here within the rules for folk to read. Your thoughts about my stance means absolutely nothing to me.

When l was in business l had business friends who employed illegal folk, up to them, but you think l should shop them. Hmmmmm. It's up to the government to sort stuff out with our taxes before spending it outside our shores.

How many times have YOU been in a restaurant where the waiter/waitress doesn't understand English ? How many times ?. Did you think, OH, thats strange, better phone immigration. And don't say you haven't had that experience. ''most'' folk in UK knows, immigration MUST know but there are no resources to deal with it.

As for a mugged granny and what l would do in that situation, don't be silly.

[transam]

I remember thinking about grassing someone up who claims disability allowance from the UK, but owns a business here, hebut uses an address in another country to claim, but how many of the readers on here actually do something like that, or claim heating costs, but live in Thailand over Winter.

7by7 thinks your as bad if you do visa runs.

[7by7]

You can put your views, and I, like any other member, can comment on them.

You're getting very defensive now.

The last time I was in a restaurant where the waiter's English was poor was the last time I was in Bangkok. The last time in the UK? Can't remember.

But if I knew of a crime, any crime, I would report it.

The mugged granny is an extreme example; as I said. But the point, I feel, is valid.

But you're getting very defensive, now. So I'll leave you to it.

[Bangkokhatter]

I think with regards to reporting people who you know to be staying illegally or working illegally, you have to draw a line in the sand. If you decide it's against your own morals to report them, fine, but then you can hardly go on forums complaining about all the illegals back in the UK.

[transam]

You can put your views, and I, like any other member, can comment on them.

You're getting very defensive now.

The last time I was in a restaurant where the waiter's English was poor was the last time I was in Bangkok. The last time in the UK? Can't remember.

But if I knew of a crime, any crime, I would report it.

The mugged granny is an extreme example; as I said. But the point, I feel, is valid.

But you're getting very defensive, now. So I'll leave you to it.

You seem to think l know nothing. Part of my previous business was supplying lock services to the local council, for 25 years. Over that time I knew the engineers/surveyors personally and l know what they had to deal with with dodgy migrants in council houses/flats. I also cut duplicates for locals. Made a nice living from folk who could not speak English but wanted 10 copies. Even had folk want 20 copies for one flat, so l am sure about any comments l make here even if you haven't been around much to see what is going on out there.

[transam]

I think with regards to reporting people who you know to be staying illegally or working illegally, you have to draw a line in the sand. If you decide it's against your own morals to report them, fine, but then you can hardly go on forums complaining about all the illegals back in the UK.

I don't go to church, does this mean l cannot talk about the Bible or even read it ?

[beano2274]

Everyone has their own views, if I was witness to a crime and it involved people illegally around then I would report it. But, if I know they are illegal and they are quiet and okay then why should I report them.

[theoldgit]

I agree with most of this but feel it is far too general and doesn't scrutinise the work of the UKBA / enforcement teams enough.

There are people dying during forced removals, people being removed who shouldn't be under law, and children being kept in detention centres indefinitely and without assesment, again in breach of law.

The work of NGOs is vital in this respect.

I'm sure you will agree that in a forum like this responses will be pretty general, I wasn't trying to scrutinise anybody, be it enforcement teams or NGO's, I don't think this is the right place to do it and in any case time and space wouldn't allow me to do it justice.

Forced removals are very emotive but sometimes there is no other way, of course the majority of forced removals the person is led or escorted to the aircraft, it's very rare for a person to be physically restrained when being removed, the captain of the aircraft probably wouldn't allow the person to fly if they were restrained, people know this and put up token resistance in the hope that they will be offloaded.

There have been a few people who have sadly died during forced removals, but it is so rare that it makes national headlines if it ever happens. My view that any death during a forced removal is one too many.

I don't agree with your general statement that people are being removed who shouldn't be under law, I will concede that there might be the odd one that has appealed after their removal and the removal was found wanting, in the majority of cases it's the result of a procedural technicality, I suppose that makes your point valid, but it goes to show how difficult it is for enforcement teams and case holders to effect removals.

I don't agree that children are kept in Detention Centres indefinitely without assessment, that simply not true. I do agree that the detention of children should be avoided but, in my view it's better than splitting up a family. Don't let's carried away with the view that children are detained in some sort of Dickensian prison, nothing could be further from the truth. Family units in Removal Centres are first class, the children have wonderful facilities and meaningful education opportunities, more importantly they are able to stay together as a family unit. I have seen kids in detention and they are genuinely happy, mostly they don't even realise they are in detention, and the facilities are normally far superior to where they were living previously.

I do agree that, for the most part, NGO's carry out their work effectively and play a vital, as do Independent Inspectors and Monitors, but on the flip side there are a number of NGO's who have their own agenda and will

"play the system" in order to discredit the UKBA.

Edited July 24, 2012 by theoldgit

[bangkockney]

Thanks for this theoldgit.

Indeed, we could both refer to the pitfalls of generalising, but that would be circular and pointless. I tend to just assume it as given.

I don't doubt that you've seen some positive experiences. But there has been an impact. The fact that there has only been one study to date tells us much. It's simply been an ignored issue. Detained children have been awarded compensation for damage caused and unlawful detention.

I don't accept that Yarl's Wood would be conducive to the experiences you described. Criticism has come from several places and the Home Secretary now (finally!) has a duty of care over detained children.

Also, families are those with the least risk of absconding and therefore what is the argument for their detention as a family unit? There is also no legal limit of the time a child can be detained, something which I think is incorrect.

A developed, rich country is judged on how it treats the most vulnerable and needy. In this regard the UK falls short.

Edited July 24, 2012 by 7by7
Unnecessary full quote of preceding post removed.

[transam]

Foreigners use kids as a key. They know the system, how it works, the soft farang counrty. We care about kids from any country but they are a tool to achieve a goal.

[7by7]

Everyone has their own views, if I was witness to a crime and it involved people illegally around then I would report it. But, if I know they are illegal and they are quiet and okay then why should I report them.

The answer is in the title you gave to this topic, and subsequent replies.

The more illegals in the UK and the harder it is to trace and remove them, the more difficult governments, of all political persuasions, will make it for legitimate immigrants, such as family members. This has been shown by the changes made by both the previous government and this.

This is because they need to be seen to be 'doing something' and family migration is an easy target which effects a very small percentage of the population and so wont lose them many votes.

Transam,

On the one hand you complain about illegal immigrants stealing jobs from the native population and bemoan the fact that various governments have neither the will nor the resources to do anything about it.

On the other, you say that from over 6000 miles away you know of people who employ illegals; yet wont report them. You even seem to be saying that in the past you yourself have profited from illegals!

Can you really not see the contradiction in this?

[transam]

You are reading to much into my posts regarding where l put my feet up. THAT is of no interest to a reader wherever their feet are planted. Where have l said l have profited from illegals other than l ran a legal business. Stop twisting stuff for your own personal point.

YOU, say l am an ''asshol_e'' for not grassing illegals, or words to that effect, You even quote that guys who do visa runs are as bad as UK illegals for using the Thai system. SO, you tell me, if a married farang in LOS, who must show 400,000 bht in HIS account for an extension, not joint, not wife's, his own, YES. This shows Thai immigration it his money. YES. He has a problem meeting the figure and borrows from the Thai family. YOU are telling me l must grass him up because l know about it.

YES or NO ?

Edit:

Unnecessary full quote removed; again. Please read Forum Netiquette

Edited July 24, 2012 by 7by7

[beano2274]

Further to transams post above, should we also grass on those in Thailand that borrow the money from somewhere or go to one of these agents and get a visa, without really having the money in their accounts, just all made up to achieve a goal. Some of these so called agents call themselves law firms.

The UK put this on itself by being a yes state.

I remember the guy who came to the UK for asylum, with his 3 wives and 20 children, the state had to pay for him, but the best was that each of his wife's had to have their own place to live in, paid for by the tax payer, then none of his family could speak English so they all had to have private lessons, and he had to have transport from one house to another wife's house. This is the thing that makes me sick, then hearing about guys I worked with in the Army struggling to get anything from the state after coming back worse for wear from Iran or Afghanistan.

Edited July 24, 2012 by beano2274

[transam]

100% correct post/point. My dad died aged 88, blown up doing his stuff as a kid and FINALLY got 5 pounds a month for his injuries when he was 85, yes 85, NOT back dated. And readers wonder why l am always angry that folk come from around the world to UK for one reason, yes, one reason.

Edited July 24, 2012 by 7by7
Unnecessary full quote removed; again

[Thongkorn]

Having read through theses posts, nobody has mentioned that the UK cannot do anything because its hands are tied by the EEC. The Laws says that any , illegal immigrant should be returned to the Country next to where they came from < that limits the options. France, Belgium. So it does not matter if the person or person shreds there passports. But the week kneed UK government should grow some balls and start returning them back across the English channel, and send the bill for Dole, subsistence to the EU and let them pay for it. Thailand has a big problem with Immigration, people fleeing Country's that boarder Thailand ,

[transam]

Unfortunately the UK has lost it's balls and bows to others in control to look like the perfect nation.

Edited July 24, 2012 by 7by7
And yet again.

[bangkockney]

At least people have liked my posts on this topic.

The UKBA needs to have more authority and be able to kick those out who do not have the right visas and do it immediately, and comments about kids being in detention centres is such a pity, if their parents had the correct paperwork they would not be there, so blame the parents not the people who stick them there.

If a British citizen under the age of 10 commits murder in England or Wales they escape being found guilty of a criminal offence and won't be detained.

If a foreign national child who through no fault of their own is in the UK without status, you want them detained.

Shame on you.

With regards to your boast of people liking your comment:

1. The blind leading the blind.

2. Good for you: you seek validation from pseudo-anonymous identities to feel good about yourself.

[7by7]

You are reading to much into my posts regarding where l put my feet up. THAT is of no interest to a reader wherever their feet are planted. Where have l said l have profited from illegals other than l ran a legal business. Stop twisting stuff for your own personal point.

YOU, say l am an ''asshol_e'' for not grassing illegals, or words to that effect, You even quote that guys who do visa runs are as bad as UK illegals for using the Thai system. SO, you tell me, if a married farang in LOS, who must show 400,000 bht in HIS account for an extension, not joint, not wife's, his own, YES. This shows Thai immigration it his money. YES. He has a problem meeting the figure and borrows from the Thai family. YOU are telling me l must grass him up because l know about it.

YES or NO ?

You claim to know about what is happening in the UK, yet you live over 6000 miles away.

You say that you used to change locks and supply keys for people you knew were illegal. Yet you did not report them.

I have never called you an '''asshol_e'' or words to that effect' for anything. I did ask you if you could not see the contradictory nature of your posts; obviously not.

I did not say that visa runners in Thailand are the same as illegal immigrants in the UK. Obviously they are not as visa runs are not illegal.

If your married farang in Thailand is acting legally, no problem. I don't know enough about Thai immigration rules to say; do you?

Even if it is not legal; I am not banging on about how terrible it is and saying that the Thai government is weak and useless for not doing something to stop it. Unlike your comments about the Uk government and illegal immigrants in the UK.

But I will say that in any country, those who break the rules only make it harder for those who try to abide by them.

As you have tied yourself into such a knot through tying to justify your contradictory posts that you have now resorted to mere insults, there is no point in continuing with you.

Except to say, please use the reply box at the bottom of the page instead of the quote button unless you are replying to a specific post which is not the preceding one; as I have done here.

Apologies to other readers for getting into this pathetic argument; but people who complain that 'they' must do something yet refuse to get up and do something themselves do pee me off.

[7by7]

I remember the guy who came to the UK for asylum, with his 3 wives and 20 children, the state had to pay for him, but the best was that each of his wife's had to have their own place to live in, paid for by the tax payer, then none of his family could speak English so they all had to have private lessons, and he had to have transport from one house to another wife's house. This is the thing that makes me sick, then hearing about guys I worked with in the Army struggling to get anything from the state after coming back worse for wear from Iran or Afghanistan.

Remember? From where? Is this a fact or yet another anti immigrant rumour spread by people who if they had their way would stop you from living in the UK with your Thai wife?

We all have great admiration and sympathy for all our armed forces, particularly those who have suffered, and are still suffering, physically or mentally as a result of their service. But how that is relevant to finding and removing illegal workers, only you know.

Perhaps you could help the situation by reporting any illegal workers you know about to the authorities?

[7by7]

Having read through theses posts, nobody has mentioned that the UK cannot do anything because its hands are tied by the EEC. The Laws says that any , illegal immigrant should be returned to the Country next to where they came from < that limits the options. France, Belgium. So it does not matter if the person or person shreds there passports. But the week kneed UK government should grow some balls and start returning them back across the English channel, and send the bill for Dole, subsistence to the EU and let them pay for it. Thailand has a big problem with Immigration, people fleeing Country's that boarder Thailand ,

I wondered how long it would be before someone tried to blame the EU!

This has nothing to do with the EU.

The UKBA do maintain a presence at, for example, Calais where they search for people attempting to enter the UK illegally. People found are returned to France. Unfortunately, the French suffer from the same problem as the UK; these people have no documents so no one knows where to return them to.

Worth noting that if the UK were to join the Schengen area, as wished for by some in a recent topic, there would be no border control between France and the UK and so even more illegals would be able to get across the channel. They wouldn't even need to hide, all they'd need is the ferry fare!

I refer you to the posts from those who actually know what they are talking about (I don't mean me). This one from Eff1n2ret being a good place to start.

[David48]

I mentioned this Video Clip over in the London Olympics thread here.

Thought that it had some relevancy also to this debate.

The British Government has lost track of 150,000 illegal Immigrants and 4,000 foreign criminals.

Mentioned as part of a larger report here.

[electau]

Australia probably has on of the best fuctioning immigration policy and one that could be adopted by the UK. But to stem the tide of illegals (or " wetbacks" in Australias case) it needs the co- operation of all countries involved in the transit of these people.

These illegal immigrants or aliens ( this is what they are) ofter destroy their documents of identity or use false ID documents making processing difficult.

They are asylum seekers, and that means they are seeking political asylum only, the genuine ones that is.

[beano2274]

I remember the guy who came to the UK for asylum, with his 3 wives and 20 children, the state had to pay for him, but the best was that each of his wife's had to have their own place to live in, paid for by the tax payer, then none of his family could speak English so they all had to have private lessons, and he had to have transport from one house to another wife's house. This is the thing that makes me sick, then hearing about guys I worked with in the Army struggling to get anything from the state after coming back worse for wear from Iran or Afghanistan.

Remember? From where? Is this a fact or yet another anti immigrant rumour spread by people who if they had their way would stop you from living in the UK with your Thai wife?

We all have great admiration and sympathy for all our armed forces, particularly those who have suffered, and are still suffering, physically or mentally as a result of their service. But how that is relevant to finding and removing illegal workers, only you know.

Perhaps you could help the situation by reporting any illegal workers you know about to the authorities?

This was about 6 years ago or more, it was front page news in all the national papers.

[beano2274]

At least people have liked my posts on this topic.

The UKBA needs to have more authority and be able to kick those out who do not have the right visas and do it immediately, and comments about kids being in detention centres is such a pity, if their parents had the correct paperwork they would not be there, so blame the parents not the people who stick them there.

If a British citizen under the age of 10 commits murder in England or Wales they escape being found guilty of a criminal offence and won't be detained.

If a foreign national child who through no fault of their own is in the UK without status, you want them detained.

Shame on you.

With regards to your boast of people liking your comment:

1. The blind leading the blind.

2. Good for you: you seek validation from pseudo-anonymous identities to feel good about yourself.

Detained as a family not alone.

And actually I think I post good informative comments and posts.

Edited July 25, 2012 by beano2274

[meatboy]

they would have proberbly caught a few thousand working as security at the olympics but someone spilt the beans hence the shortage.