Nine

[buadhai]

I'm really trying my best to speak Thai as much as possible.

Today I was home alone and someone called asking for Ms. B. I said, in Thai, that she wasn't there and then the caller asked, in Thai, for her mobile phone number.

I finally found it and started out:

"sung sii hok baat gao" and when I got to "gao" I got back "ehhh?".

I tried again to say 9 as carefully as possible and the caller just couldn't understand it.

Now, here I am reciting a phone number and no matter how badly I pronounce 9 in Thai the person on the receiving end ought to be able to figure out that the only digit that sounds anything like what they heard over the phone is "9". After all, "nine" in Thai doesn't sound anything like any of the other nine possible digits.

So, why can't they hear it and understand it and what do I need to do to pronounce it so that they can figure it out?

[tariq]

maybe it was just a tonal issue but as you say there aren't any other numbers it could be mixed up with.. maybe its something else i don't know about.

gao should be said with a falling tone. same tone you'd use for hah (5)

taz...

[buadhai]

I suspect that I tend to say "kao" instead of "gao"....

[meadish_sweetball]

Thais are generally used to farangs saying 'ae' for 'aa' as it is so common in English speaking farangs' Thai that it even made it to the TV commercials...

Maybe you could record yourself saying it and attach it as a downloadable file to a post buadhai - that way it would be easier to assess.

The problem is probably any of these: 1.) wrong tone 2.) wrong vowel sound 3.) wrong initial consonant sound 4.) vowel length.

If more than one of these 4 is not good, it will be difficult for the Thai to hear what you mean.

[katana]

A couple of sound files:

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/thaidict/thaile...ch/00000486.WAV

http://www.thai-language.com/audio/E131075.wma

[Johpa]

I suspect that I tend to say "kao" instead of "gao"....

I would hope so as it is an unaspirated /k/ that begins the word and not a voiced /g/ sound.

I am not sure why there had been a tendency lately on this board to ascribe a /g/ sound to koh kai.

[Neeranam]

Buadhai,

I had that problem too - 5 and 9.

With nine I had to really really try to overpronounce it at first.

My facial expression changed and I felt pretty stupid - but I had to be willing to sound/look like an idiot before i could learn - still do!

I make Thai speakers repeat what I say so i can hear what I am actually saying, not what I think I'm saying - a very big difference.

[Jai Dee]

I make Thai speakers repeat what I say so i can hear what I am actually saying, not what I think I'm saying - a very big difference.

Good point Neeranam.

As a golfer, I get to practice my numbers fairly regularly by asking my caddy for a certain club... lek jed, or mai har etc... I think I get it right about 99% of the time now...

[HarryHerb]

Buadhai,

I had that problem too - 5 and 9.

With nine I had to really really try to overpronounce it at first.

My facial expression changed and I felt pretty stupid - but I had to be willing to sound/look like an idiot before i could learn - still do!

That's really funny, I feel like I'm doing the same thing when I say nine in Thai. But it really does help somehow.

After similar experiences with 5/9/?, I started making a conscious effort to 'project' my voice (often accompanied by a silly face, as you have to open your mouth quite wide) as I noticed Thai people seem to say 'kao' louder than the other numbers - or at least that how it sounds to me. Et voila! No more incomprehending looks. So maybe this is the route to go, Buadhai...

[meadish_sweetball]

Fully learning to master another language does involve a fair bit of humiliation and what will at first feel like affectation.

We all tend to think some features of each other's languages sound really appalling (overly masculine, feminine, ugly, you name it), but it is when we manage to pick those habits up that we truly sound like natives and are not perceived by that language group as blabbering immigrants anymore.

[sabaijai]

I suspect that I tend to say "kao" instead of "gao"....

I would hope so as it is an unaspirated /k/ that begins the word and not a voiced /g/ sound.

I am not sure why there had been a tendency lately on this board to ascribe a /g/ sound to koh kai.

I find it annoying, too, but apparently some Westerners find the Thai ก to sound like an English /g/. To me it doesn't, but I do see that the use of 'k' misleads some English speakers to pronounce that consonant like a ค or ข. Basically one has to train one's self to associate 'k' with ก and 'kh' with ค or ข. It takes all of five minutes but that's apparently too much of a time investment for some people.

[Johpa]

I suspect that I tend to say "kao" instead of "gao"....

I would hope so as it is an unaspirated /k/ that begins the word and not a voiced /g/ sound.

I am not sure why there had been a tendency lately on this board to ascribe a /g/ sound to koh kai.

I find it annoying, too, but apparently some Westerners find the Thai ก to sound like an English /g/. To me it doesn't, but I do see that the use of 'k' misleads some English speakers to pronounce that consonant like a ค or ข. Basically one has to train one's self to associate 'k' with ก and 'kh' with ค or ข. It takes all of five minutes but that's apparently too much of a time investment for some people.

I think the problem is that the Thai ear does not perceive or parse the voiced /g/ as an unvoiced /k/ by default. It would be interesting to hear from the native Thai speakers here as to how this particular phonemic situation here is resloved by the average Thai in light of Thai having the other voiced stops (/d/ and /b/).

[siamesekitty]

I think the problem is that the Thai ear does not perceive or parse the voiced /g/ as an unvoiced /k/ by default. It would be interesting to hear from the native Thai speakers here as to how this particular phonemic situation here is resloved by the average Thai in light of Thai having the other voiced stops (/d/ and /b/).

mai khaojai kha... "voiced /g/" , "unvoiced /k/" ?

[sabaijai]

I think the problem is that the Thai ear does not perceive or parse the voiced /g/ as an unvoiced /k/ by default. It would be interesting to hear from the native Thai speakers here as to how this particular phonemic situation here is resloved by the average Thai in light of Thai having the other voiced stops (/d/ and /b/).

"I think the problem is that the Thai ear does not perceive or parse the voiced /g/ as an unvoiced /k/ by default. "

I don't find that to be the case at all. I'm around native Thai speakers most of every day and for the last 25+ years have watched Thais converse with foreigners incorrectly voicing the Thai /k/ (in other words, using /g/, since in reality there is no voiced /k/ in English or any other language; once voiced, it's /g/) more often than not. Yet I've never seen a Thai mistake that /g/ for anything else. It sounds 'foreign' - even ugly - to Thais but they know what is intended. The mispronounced consonants that seem to interfere with comprehension tend to be ones where the foreigner aspirates a Thai consonant that should be unaspirated, as when the foreigner pronounce /p/ป as /ph/พ.

Still I prefer using /k/ to transliterate ก to serve as a reminder that the it's not a /g/. Also it matches the unvoiced, unaspirated /k/ we do find in English, which is the /k/ in such words as 'skin' and 'skate'. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, /k/ is the official RTGS Roman transcription ก. Otherwise highway signs would read 'Grungthep' and 'Khon Gaen', so really it's a no-brainer.

Some foreigners never get used to this, however, and always prefer /g/ - look at all the phrasebooks on the market that use /g/, for example.

[siamesekitty]

I actually think of it as "g" myself.. though when spelling names of locations I use "k", only because that's the official spelling.

P.S. Here's a guide on Thai -> English transliteration (pdf file) and English -> Thai (web link), from The Royal Institute.

Edited January 22, 2006 by siamesekitty

[Paul L]

I’m still a total novice and eons behind you guys when it comes to the Thai language. I actually thought I was being taught Thai then I find out its Thai-Laos. Never mind, she only teaches me Thai now and I’m determined to get there in the end.

Anyway my method of learning is: She talks and I repeat, once she’s happy with what I’m repeating, I write it down in English in a manner I can reproduce, then repeat until its hammered in to the old grey matter (hopefully for the long term).

Using my method; Nine = cow. I’ve never had a problem with been understood in Khonkaen nor anywhere else in Thailand for that matter.

Paul

[Thaipwriter]

I suspect you were not actually doing much wrong, sometimes I think they are just messing with your mind for a bit of fun

[raro]

As to my experience, there are Thais who can abstract the wrong tone and still understand you because of the context, and there are Thais (usually those not really used to deal with foreigners...) who can't.

It is pretty much the same like you understanding "fai lie" as "fried rice" because this is what the food stall apparently offers. Without the context it is harder.

[wasabi]

Sounds like a g to me

http://www.thai-language.com/audio/E134345.wma

[Richard W]

Sounds like a g to me

http://www.thai-language.com/audio/E134345.wma

And I would expect that ป and ต sound like and [d] to you. They did to me for a long time.

Actually, an English initial /g/ has remarkably little voicing - it 'has all the characteristics of voicing except voicing itself'!

[meadish_sweetball]

Sounds like a g to me

http://www.thai-language.com/audio/E134345.wma

This is perhaps a bit simplified, but it is similar to the method I used to learn to distinguish between these sounds and pronounce them correctly:

The sound in the sound file will sound like a "g" to you because your mind has already built its compartments for the sounds that there are, and the closest equivalent in your mind's own dictionary is a 'g'. Before you become aware of the difference between ก and 'g', you will typically not be able to hear it. It is not a huge difference, and I agree with sabaijai that it is unlikely to be the source of the communication problem for the Original Poster - but it is there, and if you aspire to speak Thai as closely to native pronounciation as you can, it could be a good idea to learn the distinction.

1. skate

2. gate

3. Kate

Try to listen carefully to yourself saying "skate", "gate" and "Kate" and compare the second sound in "skate" with the g in "gate" and the "k" in Kate.

You will notice quite easily that the "k" in "skate" is not pronounced as the "k" in Kate, and hopefully you will also perceive that the "k" in "skate" is not quite as soft as the "g" in "gate" either - this 'hardness' of ก is what separates it from 'g' in my mind.

The "k" in "skate" is, I think, the closest English equivalent you can get to the ก sound in Thai.

Similar methods can be used to learn to distinguish between the ป in ป้า and the บ in บ้า as well as between the ต in ตา and the ด in ดา.

1. spy

2. bye

3. pie

In this case, the difference between ป and บ is the same as that between the p sound in 'spy' and the 'b' sound in 'bye'. Again, the hardness of the 'p' in the first one (you need to tense your lips without releasing a puff of air after you separate them - for a 'b', you separate the lips much softer).

1. star

2. dar

3. tar

For this example, think 'star' as opposed to *'dar' [never mind the lack of meaning of 'dar', the sound difference as opposed to 'star' is the important thing]). That is the difference between ต and ด.

[Richard W]

For this example, think 'star' as opposed to *'dar' [never mind the lack of meaning of 'dar', the sound difference as opposed to 'star' is the important thing]). That is the difference between ต and ด.

Or use 'sty' v. 'die' v. 'tie' if the lack of meaning is bothersome.