Meditation

[leolibby]

Hello;

Does anyone have any experience with transcendantal meditation? I was trained in that in 2008, but I seldom do it.

[leolibby]

I mean, if it can be considered Buddhist; I'm not sure.

[Jawnie]

I mean, if it can be considered Buddhist; I'm not sure.

One does not have to be a Buddhist to meditate nor does labeling meditation as being "Buddhist" assist one in its practice. Meditation is most closely associated with Buddhism because it is openly taught and practiced by Buddhists whereas Christianity generally discourage the practice of meditation as it does not accord with its general world view or its views of the individual in relation to the divine. Meditation is observing the mind and allowing it to function on its own, this does not require any particular religion or teaching. However, because Buddhism supports meditation, it also contains a lot of literature, instruction, and commentary about the practice of meditation. And because of this, one is most likely to get the most accurate and complete instruction and benefit from meditation from the Buddhist views of it.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Jawnie

[leolibby]

Thanks. I was just afraid of someone saying: "not buddhist, topic closed," since the TM movement seems much closer to Hinduism. Basically, TM is like any other meditation i know of: focus on a mantra to reach a state of no thought. It's not good to intellectualize how and what is done beyond that (my trainer told me).

How about this to get started: I was given a personal mantra and no one else knows it... what do you think the rationale is in not disclosing your mantra?

[rockyysdt]

Thanks. I was just afraid of someone saying: "not buddhist, topic closed," since the TM movement seems much closer to Hinduism. Basically, TM is like any other meditation i know of: focus on a mantra to reach a state of no thought. It's not good to intellectualize how and what is done beyond that (my trainer told me).

How about this to get started: I was given a personal mantra and no one else knows it... what do you think the rationale is in not disclosing your mantra?

I was also involved with TM.

During my induction I was grouped with eleven other new members.

The teacher gave us a group overview and taught the basic meditation instruction.

He indicated the power was in the mantra.

We then had individual rituals performed during which the teacher imparted the mantra and we were advised this was personal and never to be divulged to anyone.

During a follow up group session, upon questioning, for ease, the teacher admitted he gave each of us the same mantra.

I practiced using the TM method for a number of years and have never divulged the mantra.

Apparently it was meant to be a Devas name and power is derived through it.

I haven't practiced it for years.

I drifted away from the TM group, finding the focus was always about money.

They had different levels and were keen to get me to impart $5,000 for that course, with the promise of a technique which would yield deep levels of meditation.

The retreats were pretty expensive as well $500 for two nights.

What I've learned is that one doesn't meditate, as doing is the opposite.

We focus on the conditions and meditation comes to us.

Meditation is pure awareness.

I've had great success using Anapanasiti.

Simply observing ones breath, but follow it through the nasal passages, down the windpipe and all the way down to your sternum.

Then follow the breath all the way out, paying particular attention to the point when the in breathe finishes and the out breath starts.

The other important consideration is to achieve the most comfortable long breath.

This is done by firstly observing short breath and learning what this does (tension, stress, rampant thought).

Then begin observing the long breath (deep relaxation).

Then you practice shortening the long breath until you achieve a balance between long breath and comfort.

Meditation is not something we do.

Practice the conditions and meditation comes.

1. Fully relaxed posture, at one with gravity and allowing the lungs to fully open.

2. Observe the long breath, all the way down to the sternum, and then all the way out, paying special attention to the point between the in and the out.

3. If thoughts appear, when aware, gently return to the breathe.

4. If thoughts become rampant, observe the body, part by part, letting go of any tension, then come back to the breath.

If meditation is the goal, place your full attention on getting the conditions correct.

I found I didn't need a mantra.

Edited August 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[leolibby]

Interesting... what are some theories as to the purpose of a mantra? I think focusing on breathing is just a different type of mantra... does anyone focus on the heartbeat? (sometimes i can hear my heart if its really silent).

Oh, also, are there some forms of (zen) meditation where the focus is on a paradox?

Edited August 7, 2012 by leolibby

[rockyysdt]

Interesting... what are some theories as to the purpose of a mantra? I think focusing on breathing is just a different type of mantra... does anyone focus on the heartbeat? (sometimes i can hear my heart if its really silent).

Oh, also, are there some forms of (zen) meditation where the focus is on a paradox?

Some believe the mantra is associated with a power or deity.

Repeating the mantra in your mind when sitting is said to call upon such powers.

The other thing about a mantra is that its sound when mentally repeated may allow one to focus ones mind.

I've also heard that the resonance of some mantras can have a calming affect and assist with meditation.

I believed I had such a resonance with my TM mantra, but this may have been a placebo effect, I don't know.

Not personally being attached to deities or things metaphysical l wasn't drawn to the idea that my TM mantra was in effect calling upon a God.

Prior to the TM initiation ritual including lighting incense to a picture of a deva, deities had never been mentioned.

I find practicing with the breath is the best technique.

Firstly, whilst you're alive, it's always there.

Awareness of breath (short breath, then long breath), is very revealing.

Focusing on your hear beat will take your mind to a single point or task, but you can't will your heart beat to alter.

On the other hand, playing with your breath can have an affect on the heart rate.

When I'm particularly stressed, or angry I'll notice my breath has become very short or has stopped.

Deep breaths always result in a level of calmness and ease.

When you really analyse it, sitting meditation is focused awareness of breath and body (this can extend to mind and feelings as you develop).

The most powerful experiences I've had during sitting meditation (first ensure posture is correct) were after playing around with the breath until settling on the longest most comfortable breath.

This continues to be refined with practice.

The other secret is to follow the breath all the way in. It really works.

Implementing correct posture and practice with long breath following it down to the diaphragm allows me to experience "piti', the lowest level of joy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%ABti

Perfecting breath, like any skill, comes with correct technique and practice.

To me, diverting attention to a mantra reduces the time devoted to getting the breath right.

Why do you use mantra?

Edited August 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

Mantra focuses the mind on a more subtle levels of experience. It is also worship and an invocation - mantras are often associated with particular 'deities' or spiritual qualities, qualities that are invoked in the mind by reciting the mantra. Mantra purifies negative speech karma.

[rockyysdt]

Interesting... what are some theories as to the purpose of a mantra? I think focusing on breathing is just a different type of mantra... does anyone focus on the heartbeat? (sometimes i can hear my heart if its really silent).

Oh, also, are there some forms of (zen) meditation where the focus is on a paradox?

The only other comment I would add is that perfecting ones posture/concentration of breath is preferable to continually changing/searching.

I spent decades searching when the answer was already there.

Now I concentrate of perfecting/practicing the conditions but never try to meditate.

Edited August 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Mantra focuses the mind on a more subtle levels of experience. It is also worship and an invocation - mantras are often associated with particular 'deities' or spiritual qualities, qualities that are invoked in the mind by reciting the mantra. Mantra purifies negative speech karma.

Hi J.

I was interested to learn whether the Buddha taught the use of mantra and whether he listed any for our use?

[leolibby]

I read that the mantra is analogous to the rod that an elephant holds in his trunk when in a parade. The trunk would be the mind--without the rod, the elephhant will try to grab anything it passes--like the mind will "grab" at any thought.,. so the mantra is a tool to control or focus the mind. An idea I had, is the mantra is like the grain of sand a pearl forms around--the pearl would be the mental state or something............... In the past, having a mantra and breathing seemed a distraction... how about having a mantra that's a mental image?

[meadish_sweetball]

Tibetan Buddhism uses mental imagery in their meditation practice, for example the visualisation of light (which is supposed to prepare the yogi for that light as it arises spontaneously at later stages).

When I asked a Theravada monk about this, he discouraged it with the motivation that it is like filling up with more content rather than simply observing the content that's already there.

[sabaijai]

In Theravada Buddhism, meditation on a selected object, whether one's breath, a mantra (phuttho/Buddho is common in Thailand), or one of the 10 kasinas mentioned in the Pali canon, comes under the category of samatha, ie, tranquility meditation. Such techniques produce calmness and eventually a high degree of concentration.

Such methods existed well before the Buddha came along. The innovation that Buddhism introduced was vipassana meditation, which leads beyond concentration and calm to insight and wisdom, to seeing reality. Vipassana involves mindfulness of any object that enters consciousness.

In Theravada Buddhism, there are 40 different meditation subjects of samatha and four major techniques or foundations for vipassana. Vipassana meditation (more correctly satipatthana vipassana or insight through mindfulness development) is considered both necessary and sufficient for bringing about nibbana.

Many religions and other schools of Buddhism use some form of samatha meditation, which by itself, it is said, will not lead to nibbana. The vipassana path must be taken up at some point.

[fabianfred]

The Buddha said that all we need for reaching nibbana is within this fathom long carcass...

We do not need to invoke deities or pray for assistance from anyone. The mantra could justr as easily be 'no.7 double-decker bus' to be effective because the words are not important. A mantra is something to concentrate upon to take our mind off the distractions. Useful in early practice but becoming a hinderance later.

In Vipassana some systems use the 'noting' technique whereby one makes a mental 'label' for every action and distraction ( 'rising' ; 'falling' ; 'itching' ; 'pain' ; 'hearing'; etc.) but this is a form of forced thinking which is useful when getting to understand mindfulness in early practice but also can become a hinderance later and is often stopped once we know how to just observe without judgement.

The reason we say samatha meditation cannot get us to nibbana, by itself, is because it is practiced in many ways and forms and by many religions....shamans, witch doctors, yogis, etc. It was practiced by the Buddha until he attained enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, and during his many lives as a Boddhisatva.

If it were possible to attain nibanna by this alone there would not be any need for Buddhas...

The Buddhas teach Vipassana...... their own knowledge of the truth...detailed in the Satipatana sutta...the Four Foundations of Mindfulness.....insights into reality...the truth about our existence.....experiential understanding of the three factors of conditioned existence....Suffering, impermanence & non-self.

Once a Buddha's teachings are lost and nobody undertsands about or practices vipassana, there is no more chance to reach nibbana and any of the four noble states (stream-entry to arahant)......until the next Buddha comes and re-discovers the lost truth and teaches it again.

Samatha is like withdrawing inside to cut oneself off from all the distractions....like an ostrich putting its head in the sand.

Vipassana is like being aware of everything...all distractions...all sensations...breathing...movement...thoughts....but just acknowleging them then letting them go without any judgement or reaction to them.....just watching...

That is for the vipassana formal practice sessions of sitting and walking, standing and lying....but actually it is all aimed at getting one to be mindful every moment...whatever we are doing. Mindfully washing the car; doing the dishes, sweeping the floor, driving a car, eventually to be mindful every moment, every second.

That is truly living...being in the moment.

[IMA_FARANG]

I read that the mantra is analogous to the rod that an elephant holds in his trunk when in a parade. The trunk would be the mind--without the rod, the elephhant will try to grab anything it passes--like the mind will "grab" at any thought.,. so the mantra is a tool to control or focus the mind. An idea I had, is the mantra is like the grain of sand a pearl forms around--the pearl would be the mental state or something............... In the past, having a mantra and breathing seemed a distraction... how about having a mantra that's a mental image?

--------------------

Ssshh! You're not suppposed to tell beginners that!

Just joking.

But you're exactly right....meditation has it's place and purpose....but often it is taught to beginners who have never learned the discipline of just sitting quietly.

So they get told a "method" of meditating they must practice following.

That teaches them to stop their mind or "self" running about poking into everything....like a chattering monkey wanting to see and try everything "right now".

That attitude is called the "Monkey mind".

So they are taught the "correct procedure(s)" to meditate....and told to concentrate on that procedure.

That calms down their Monkey mind, and teaches the discipline of sitting quietly.

Once they have that...the real work can begin.

But don't say I told you that.

[leolibby]

Vipassana is like being aware of everything...all distractions...all sensations...breathing...movement...thoughts....but just acknowleging them then letting them go without any judgement or reaction to them.....just watching...

That's also key in TM (sorry for disclosing ur secret Maharishi)... the letting go part, not being aware of everything. I wouldn't be shocked if some TM people don't even remember that. So advanced stages of meditation are done with eyes open, all day?

[rockyysdt]

So advanced stages of meditation are done with eyes open, all day?

Picture meditation (sitting) as one form of meditation.

When we sit with eyes closed we can be focusing our awareness on breath, and or body.

We can then expand our awareness to mind and feeling.

During walking meditation we begin to include awareness of the external and how we react to it.

When we take this further we practice in total awareness (breath, body, feelings, mind, and the external).

Whether Sitting (traditional meditation), or practicing Mindfulness they are all a form of meditation.

I think of it as concentration either on a single thing such as breath, then as you become proficient you expand your concentration on to other things.

The first tetrad of Anapanasiti focuses on the breath and body as ones initial practice.

Awareness of your daily being (vipassana) allows one to be in the moment and not attached to lamentation of the past or worries of the future.

The key is that many of us are locked in the past or future continually and are missing the moment.

Life can only be experienced in the present.

Someone once asked: "How can you not draw from the experiences of the past, or consider the future? If I don't nothing will get done."

This is simple.

To cater forour future or learn from the past we set a time to do this.

A time to consider options and plan our lives.

Planning for our future and setting our goals and implimentation plans allows us to then take respite from past/future for the rest of our day, and give us opportunity to settle into the present (awareness).

Whether we sit in concentration or whether we are mindful of our present feelings, thoughts, body, and breath, it is all meditation or "awareness".

Most breeze through life locked in worry, anxiety, sloth, torpor, fear and other states due to lack of awareness and attachment to the past and future.

True freedom is realized by being continuously fully aware in the moment.

Edited August 9, 2012 by rockyysdt

[leolibby]

Planning for our future and setting our goals and implimentation plans allows us to then take respite from past/future for the rest of our day, and give us opportunity to settle into the present (awareness).

I used to have a friend who claimed to be a zen master.. anyways, I was mentioning the vibration state preceedeed from leaving the body.. i used to get it often and i felt that the state has extra dimmensions... anyway, he said it's best to plan out ur life in that state... I don't experience that vibrational state anymore though.

[Morakot]

Christianity generally discourage the practice of meditation as it does not accord with its general world view or its views of the individual in relation to the divine.

That's is a highly questionable statement.

Christians (especially Christian monks) have been mediating for centuries if not millennia in various forms; chanting probably the most widely known form in its meditative character.

"Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night." Joshua 1:8

Edited August 9, 2012 by Morakot

[khaowong1]

It's strange that meditation is mostly thought of as a Eastern concept when Christian monks have been doing it for approx. 2000 years. I may be wrong but Christian schools quit teaching meditation about 500 years ago. Now focus primarily on hymnals. Which is a form of chanting. Which is a form of meditation.

[fabianfred]

It's strange that meditation is mostly thought of as a Eastern concept when Christian monks have been doing it for approx. 2000 years. I may be wrong but Christian schools quit teaching meditation about 500 years ago. Now focus primarily on hymnals. Which is a form of chanting. Which is a form of meditation.

The only trouble is, that chanting is just praising others. Praising the teacher, his teachings and those who teach and practice those teachings, and those who have and are practicing them and have gained or are gaining the goal .....for us Nibanna. It is not doing the practice oneself....so a lifetime of chanting will not get us to nibanna without getting down and doing the work ourselves.

Of course for Christians they only want to praise their god...they do not want to become like god, but we want to become like the Buddha.

[Jawnie]

Christianity generally discourage the practice of meditation as it does not accord with its general world view or its views of the individual in relation to the divine.

That's is a highly questionable statement.

Christians (especially Christian monks) have been mediating for centuries if not millennia in various forms; chanting probably the most widely known form in its meditative character.

"Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night." Joshua 1:8

It is a very small sub-section of Christianity which teaches anything near the type of meditation, ie, emptiness meditation, taught and practiced by Buddhism. The 'meditation' referred to in the broader Christian world is what would be a 'form' meditation. Selecting a thought, or teaching, and reflecting on it over a period of time. It is really thinking about something and not much more.

But, the basic practice of sitting meditation, watching the breath, thoughts, ie, mind training, is not taught across the general Christian world. Perhaps it was a few hundred or 2,000 years, but not anymore. Only very small groups do it. You won't find Catholics, any of the main American denominations doing it. So, to say my statement is questionable is to elevate those Christian sects who do practice to a more prominent role than is actually the case. Simply put, walk into any Christian church and you simply will not find people meditating or hear any teaching about it.

[Jawnie]

It's strange that meditation is mostly thought of as a Eastern concept when Christian monks have been doing it for approx. 2000 years. I may be wrong but Christian schools quit teaching meditation about 500 years ago. Now focus primarily on hymnals. Which is a form of chanting. Which is a form of meditation.

Sorry to say but I don't agree with this definition of meditation - it is the "anything is everything' approach. While it is true that meditation awareness is with us moment to moment, or is to be practiced moment to moment, Christian schools today do not teach the inner experience or mind training aspect of moment to moment meditation. The practice must be informed by the teachings of sunyata, emptiness, actual selflessness, and Buddha nature.

[Several]

I'm pretty sure that what christians call meditation is actually contemplation.

[Morakot]

the basic practice of sitting meditation, watching the breath, thoughts, ie, mind training[...]

Is this not what happens when you chant?

Edited August 13, 2012 by Morakot

[Morakot]

I provide a link with some basic information, as there seems a lot of confusion about Christian meditation and how it differs to other types, e.g in Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia...tian_meditation

Overall, nobody here is trying to say that this is identical to other forms of meditation. There are similarities and differences. Meditation in Christianity is (and has been) an important practice and not "reserved" for sects (unless you think e.g. RC is a sect). There is a diversity of opinion in contemporary Christianity about what constitutes best practice of meditating, as there is a diversity of what Christians actually do.

I hope this wells.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Morakot

[Morakot]

I'm pretty sure that what christians call meditation is actually contemplation.

No there is a sharp distinction between meditation and contemplation.

See here for example: https://en.wikipedia...i/Lectio_divina

Edited August 13, 2012 by Morakot

[huli]

I am afraid this discussion is being reduced to semantics.

Orthodox Buddhist meditation is what many of us mean by "meditation", and especially so in this Buddhist forum.

Others say contemplation, chanting mantra, praying or thinking lofty thoughts is meditation to them.

I think this is co-opting a Buddhist term for their own purposes, to the detriment of Buddhism.

[cheeryble]

Agree about the semantics, meditation actually means thinking.

Here's a crucial difference between Buddhism and Christianity vis a vis "meditation":

To my mind, a competent Buddhist meditator understands what's going on when he meditates.

He has learned something about the mind.

He has a plan, and being in a carefully cultivated state of balance between focus and breadth.......always "ready to catch a ball"......he carries out that plan, and watches "himself" carrying out the plan. In this very sort of act he slowly or quickly acheives the ultimate purpose of the meditation, to decompose the self and undermine the paucity of concept. Satipatthana instruction, which the Buddha extolled above all others, does this in a carefully scripted and effective way.

But generally speaking Buddhists see the necessity of understanding the mind for what it is and what it isn't, and the role that has in seeing through the illusion of concept and of an individual self or soul.

This is notably not the case with Christianity, unless all it's teaching is taken as a metaphor which would be so far fetched as to be retogressive.

Cheeryble

Edited August 13, 2012 by cheeryble

[Morakot]

But generally speaking Buddhists see the necessity of understanding the mind for what it is and what it isn't, and the role that has in seeing through the illusion of concept and of an individual self or soul.

This is notably not the case with Christianity [...].

I agree. This is a fundamental difference. Thank you for this thoughtful contribution.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Morakot