Expressions... Where Did They Come From

[skippybangkok]

>Here are some facts about the 1500s:

>Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath

>in May

>and still smelled pretty good by June ( hence June bride). However, they were starting

>to

>smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body

>odour.

>Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the

>house

>had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons

>and men,

>then the women and finally the children-last of all the babies. By

>then the

>water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it-hence the

>saying,

>"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."

>

>Houses had thatched roofs - thick straw - piled high, with no wood

>underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all

>the dogs,

>cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it

>rained

>it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off

>the

>roof - hence the saying -

>"It's raining cats and dogs."

>

>There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This

>posed a

>real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could

>really

>mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet

>hung

>over the top afforded some protection.

>That's how canopy beds came into existence.

>

>The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt,

>hence

>the saying "dirt poor."

>The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter

>when

>wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on the floor to help keep their

>footing.

>As the winter wore on, they kept adding more thresh until when you

>opened

>the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was

>placed in

>the entranceway - hence, a "thresh hold."

>

>In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that

>always

>hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to

>the

>pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They

>would eat

>the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold

>overnight and

>then start over the next day.

>Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been there for quite a

>while -

>hence the rhyme, "peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas

>porridge in

>the pot nine days old."

>

>Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite

>special. When

>visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off.

>It was a sign of wealth that a man "could bring home the bacon."

>They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit

>around

>and "chew the fat."

>

>Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid

>content

>caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead

>poisoning and

>death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400

>years or

>so, tomatoes were considered poisonous. Most people did not have

>pewter

>plates, but had trenchers, a piece of wood with the middle scooped

>out like

>a bowl.

>Often trenchers were made from stale bread, which was so old and

>hard that

>they could be used for quite some time. Trenchers were never washed

>and a

>lot of times worms and mold got into the wood and old bread.

>After eating off wormy, mouldy trenchers, one would get "trench

>mouth."

>Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom

>of the

>loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or "upper

>crust."

>

>Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey.

>The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days.

>Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare

>them

>for burial.

>They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the

>family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see

>if they would wake up -hence the custom of holding a "wake."

>England is old and small and the local folks started running

>out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and

>would take the bones to a "bone-house" and reuse the grave.

>

>When re-opening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to

>have

>scratch marks on the inside and they realised they had been burying

>people

>alive.

>So they thought they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse,

>lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a

>bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night

>(the "graveyard shift") to listen for the bell; thus, someone could

>be

>"saved by the bell" or was considered a "dead ringer".

I would like this to be a place to post more if you have some too.

[Abandon]

England is so small that they ran out of places to bury people ?????

Come on!

There were less than 3 million people in the 1500s in England. What do we do now there are 60 million ?

[backflip]

Any more of what, unadulterated cr@p? I'd expect a 5th-grader to post this type of stuff, since none of it is true.

[suegha]

That was going to be my question, is 'any' of it true?

[backflip]

Not a word. The OP has pinned the entire post on false etymolgy and, believes that the folks in 16th century English speak and spell as we do in the 20th century. Incredible.

In grade school, my class was told the story of the Trojan Horse, and we were asked "what famous saying was is based on the story?" Immediately, one guy replied "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". The class howled, knowing that the phrase "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" was what the teacher wanted. Even as children, we knew the difference between "being suspicious" and "being gracious". The OP does not.

[Pink Mist]

the part about the bath was true, a tradition which hasnt changed much in 400 years

[Abandon]

be fair - he likely just copied and pasted it.

[sbk]

Well, tomatoes were not discovered until South America was discovered since that is where they originate. Also, they were considered poisonous because they are a member of the deadly nightshade family. Nothing to do with lead.

Oh well, sounds cute when you read it, perhaps that is why its in the jokes section?

[suegha]

Good point - it was in the jokes section, isn't this the section for such things?

[Lisa28]

I have actually heard of some of those origins myself. There are books such as "Lock, Stock and Barrel" and also the "Book of Beginnings" which do indeed hold some of these as the origins of the sayings. There are also research tours in York and in Warwickshire that I have been on that also mention these sayings and their origins......maybe one person created a story around a saying and others have perpetuated the myth, then again, maybe they do have some substance......

Edited January 23, 2006 by Lisa28

[skippybangkok]

Guess backflip after passing the 6th grade feels far superiour based on the raw sewerage coming out of his mouth.

Get a life.

[suegha]

Guess backflip after passing the 6th grade feels far superiour based on the raw sewerage coming out of his mouth.

Get a life.

Please, let's not get nasty in the jokes section. At the end of the day who care's where they came from...

[skippybangkok]

Quote :-Any more of what, unadulterated cr@p? I'd expect a 5th-grader to post this type of stuff, since none of it is true. ( and a few other references to kids ).

I agree lets not get nasty, but backflip needs to understand a few things ( since he is so educated )

1. Not all people on this web site grew up in English speaking countries.

2. If my post was not correct - fine - always willing to learn new things. A polite reference to the correct source of such expressions would be appreciated. No need for comments derived from the the gutter.

3. I am familiar with people who try to humiliate others - trying to up themselves on the backs of others.

Since none of it is true, for the phrases posted, I would be interested to see what is "true" and what the references are to support this truth. Always willing to learn from such estemed and knowledgable persons.

[Smokin Joe]

Quote :-Any more of what, unadulterated cr@p? I'd expect a 5th-grader to post this type of stuff, since none of it is true. ( and a few other references to kids ).

I agree lets not get nasty, but backflip needs to understand a few things ( since he is so educated )

1. Not all people on this web site grew up in English speaking countries.

2. If my post was not correct - fine - always willing to learn new things. A polite reference to the correct source of such expressions would be appreciated. No need for comments derived from the the gutter.

3. I am familiar with people who try to humiliate others - trying to up themselves on the backs of others.

Since none of it is true, for the phrases posted, I would be interested to see what is "true" and what the references are to support this truth. Always willing to learn from such estemed and knowledgable persons.

No explanations necessary.

1. You posted in the Jokes section

2. Backflip is an idiot whose number of posts matches his IQ.

[skippybangkok]

Cheers.... lets move on from this.... off to the next joke !

[CHOPTHAI]

Quote:

1. Not all people on this web site grew up in English speaking countries.

2. If my post was not correct - fine - always willing to learn new things. A polite reference to the correct source of such expressions would be appreciated. No need for comments derived from the the gutter.

I fully agree with you on these.

[skippybangkok]

Thanks..... quite frankly, I am still interested in the "truth". Seems to be coming very slow.....

Lock Stock and Barrel ( meaning everything ) apparently comes from the 17th century ( or close ) and refers to weapons.

I saw one expression " could freeze the balls off a brass monkey" . Apparently it refers to old sailing ships....the "brass monkey" was something on a ship, and it was very very cold, I think the difference in the expansion co-effiecients of the brass monkey ( what ever that was ) and what it was in cause the monkey to fall out....

interested in anyone else who can clarify the above ( inculding the illustrious backflip)

[Smokin Joe]

I saw one expression " could freeze the balls off a brass monkey" . Apparently it refers to old sailing ships....the "brass monkey" was something on a ship, and it was very very cold, I think the difference in the expansion co-effiecients of the brass monkey ( what ever that was ) and what it was in cause the monkey to fall out....

interested in anyone else who can clarify the above ( inculding the illustrious backflip)

The balls were cannon balls. The brass monkey was the lip at the base of the stacked cannonballs to keep them from rolloing away. Different metal so they wouldn't rust in place. If it got extremely cold the brass contracted enough that the cannon balls would get forced over the lip and fall off..

Can't say for sure it's true, but that was the story I heard.

[Abandon]

there's a site somewhere that investigates these things. The brass monkey one, which i had believed for a number of years, was proven to be false. Apparently they did not use these things. They kept the balls below deck and only brought them up for battle, and then put them on twin rails. I 'spose google could find the site....

[Nomad97]

The balls were cannon balls. The brass monkey was the lip at the base of the stacked cannonballs to keep them from rolling away. Different metal so they wouldn't rust in place. If it got extremely cold the brass contracted enough that the cannon balls would get forced over the lip and fall off..

That's the way I heard the story too. The only difference was that the brass monkey was used at shore-based establishments and was for ceremonial purposes - not used at sea.

[backflip]

OP,

I’m an American, and I can give you some insight about how Americans use the English language. The sore losers of the Revolutionary War have their own perspective.

Jacques Derrida derided the false mysticism of the spoken word and launched his idea of “antilogocentrism”. Frankly, he believed that the written word was truer. Jacques must be spinning in his grave for what passes as the truth. There are missives which are clearly hoaxes (an email offering you millions of dollars from somewhere in Nigeria), other that are clearly jokes (manipulated photos showing Bush holding a phone upside down), some that are simply wrong (for example, the Thai website that claims that “used goods” are LESS than 6 months old – it should read MORE than 6 months), and poorly researched student papers (your forwarded email). Let’s consider the last point.

Unlike the French with their language police, English has no upper nor lower bounds or constraints. We borrow easily from other languages and cultures, mixing words and phrases of Latin, Greek, French, Italian, German, Welsh, Spanish, mid-Eastern, and on and on. The development of the language and the definition, etymology, is as fascinating as the language itself. Although a simple online dictionary can provide a definition, the real wealth is in the development of the word. For that type of research, you should consider buying a “library dictionary” – something big (2000 pages) and expensive ($150). Too, a thesaurus – a dictionary of synonyms – is almost as valuable. They’re available in many forms, and I’d suggest getting one that also includes an overall design including “conceptual development”.

There are several websites that will send you a word, the etymological development of the word, the etymology of similar words, and an example of the word use. I suggest signing up for a daily email at “www.awad.com”. For a simple definition and simpler etymological reference, try “www.m-w.com”. If you prefer to read English proffered by someone English, and why not, try www.worldwidewords.org.

I would also suggest checking out a poetry website, and study learned examples of imagery. Starting in the 1970’s, the “women’s movement” used the phrase “glass ceiling” as an image to support their belief that women could not obtain the same power and financial status of men. Women would bump their head on the “glass ceiling” and could not rise about that. Decades before that, Langston Hughes described his inability, as a black man, to attain the same status as a white man: “…and who are you that draws your veil across the stars…” Isn’t that beautiful? A veil allows you to see, but not touch – he could see his dreams, but never reach them.

e.e. cummings, and that’s how he spelled his name, used non-conventional spelling, syntax, and punctuation. One poem includes: “i like my body when it is with your body…i like your body.i like what it does…i like softly stroking the shocking fuzz of your electric fur and what-is-it comes over parting flesh…” Isn’t that the most incredible description of “pubic hair” you’ve ever read? He could have written “I like to touch your pubic hair”, but it doesn’t have nearly the impact. Too, if you’re a woman and your boyfriend sent you a Valentine’s Day card, would you prefer to read about “nervous fuzz…electric fur”, or the crass “pubic hair”? Of course, I now expect thousands of Thai women to receive Valentine’s Day cards with Cummings’ sentiment, but they won’t understand a word of it.

In “Throw Mama from the Train”, Billy Crystal portrayed an English teacher for adults. As with many struggling English teacher,s he wanted to write THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. He tried to describe the weather. “It was a ‘hot’ night. No, it was a ‘humid’ night. That’s not quite right…it was a ‘hot and humid’ night.” His mother popped up with, “It was a ‘sultry’ night.” Billy Crystal got upset with his mom, not because of her interference, but because it was the perfect image he couldn’t describe.

In the US, there’s an annoying racist, quasi-political/religious figure whom I personally detest, but he has a way with words. The Rev. Jesse Jackson founded a racially, sexually, and gendered diverse group which is referred to as “the Rainbow Coalition”. It has nothing to do with meteorological phenomena, rather uses a rainbow as an image to portray diversity.

Another method to portray images is using “synesthesia”: purposely mixing the five senses with or without other concepts. For example, comparing “intellectual acuity” and the “clarity of a rung bell”: “Do you understand what I mean?” “Yes – clear as a bell.” Intellectual acuity and eyesight: “I see what you’re saying”, or, “It’s crystal clear.” Intellectual acuity and touch: “I can put my finger on it.” Intuition and olfactory response: “Something’s wrong. I smell trouble.”

Enough of that, let’s look as some American phrases. In any movie, describing any time period, have you ever seen a box of straw under a door? Neither have I, and for good reason: it never existed. “Threshold” is an entrance, a beginning. There’s a threshold (entrance) to a room – having nothing to do with straw. “Driving is the threshold to adulthood” – again, no straw, but a rite of passage, a beginning of another phase of life.

“Dead ringer” is used to describe identical twins (also a terrific movie with Jeremy Irons, playing identical twins – based on a true story). “Bob’s a ‘dead ringer’ for his brother.” It has nothing to do with “warning people that you are alive, and want to get out of the casket”. Another phrase for this concept is “spittin’ image” – “he’s a ‘spittin’ image of his father”…it has nothing to do with saliva.

The main components of a rifle are the “lock” (hammer and trigger assembly), “stock” (the part that is held against your shoulder, and the “barrel” (the long, cylinder from which a projectile is fired). So, “lock, stock, and barrel” describes a complete gun. It can also be used to describe the “completeness of any entity”. For example, it can describe a “concept”: “Did you make the presentation to management?” “Yep, they bought it ‘lock, stock, and barrel’.” It can also describe a “package of products and services”: “Did the travel agent help you?” “Yep, I got the airfare, the limo, the tour tickets – the whole ‘lock, stock, and barrel’ from them.” Too, it can describe something “material”: “Did you buy the new car?” “Yep, all the options I told you about, and even more – the whole ‘lock, stock, and barrel’.” You can also replace L, S, and B with “whole shebang”: “I bought the ‘whole shebang’ at a great price.” God knows how that one crept into the English language. Nevertheless, there it is. Further: “the whole shootin’ match”, “the whole ball of wax” (but not paraffin), or “everything but the kitchen sink” (but not the “kitchen oven”). Too, you can reference certain foods, but not others. Replacing “LSB” with “the whole enchilada” is acceptable, but “the whole tostada” is not. Why? Dunno.

In re: Brass Monkey.....

[Q] From Peter Grace: “Over here in Queensland, it gets pretty cool in the evenings at this time of the year (though it’s probably pretty mild by UK standards). The other day, I used the expression brass monkey weather and was asked to explain. Any ideas?”

[A] The full expansion of the phrase is cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey and is common throughout the English-speaking world, though much better known now in Australia and New Zealand than elsewhere. This is perhaps surprising, since we know it was first recorded in the USA, in the 1850s. It is often reduced to the elliptical form that you give (perhaps in deference to polite society — for the same reason, it has been modified in the US into freeze the tail off a brass monkey). There is a story, often repeated, that the phrase originated in the British navy at the time of the Napoleonic wars or thereabouts. It is said that the stack of cannon balls alongside each gun were arranged in a pyramid on a brass plate to save space, the plate being called a monkey. In very cold weather, the story goes, the cannon balls would shrink and they would fall off the stack.

Don’t let anybody convince you of this. It’s rubbish. There’s no evidence that such brass plates existed. Although the boys bringing charges to the guns from the magazine were known as powder monkeys and there is evidence that a type of cannon was called a monkey in the mid seventeenth century, there’s no evidence that the word was ever applied to a plate under a pile of cannon shot. The whole story is full of logical holes: would they pile shot into a pyramid? (hugely unsafe on a rolling and pitching deck); why a brass plate? (too expensive, and unnecessary: they actually used wooden frames with holes in, called garlands, fixed to the sides of the ship); was the plate and pile together actually called a monkey? (no evidence, as I say); would cold weather cause such shrinkage as to cause balls to fall off? (highly improbable, as all the cannon balls would reduce in size equally and the differential movement between the brass plate and the iron balls would be only a fraction of a millimetre). What the written evidence shows is that the term brass monkey was quite widely distributed in the US from about the middle of the nineteenth century and was applied in all sorts of situations, not just weather. For example: from The Story of Waitstill Baxter, by Kate Douglas Wiggin (1913): “The little feller, now, is smart’s a whip, an’ could talk the tail off a brass monkey”; and from The Ivory Trail, by Talbot Mundy (1919): “He has the gall of a brass monkey”. Even when weather was involved, it was often heat rather than cold that was meant, as in the oldest example known, from Herman Melville’s Omoo (1850): “It was so excessively hot in this still, brooding valley, shut out from the Trades, and only open toward the leeward side of the island, that labor in the sun was out of the question. To use a hyperbolical phrase of Shorty’s, ‘It was ’ot enough to melt the nose h’off a brass monkey.’ ” It seems much more likely that the image here is of a real brass monkey, or more probably still a set of them. Do you remember those sculptured groups of three wise monkeys, “Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil”? Though the term three wise monkeys isn’t recorded earlier than the start of the twentieth century, the images themselves were known much earlier. It’s more than likely the term came from them, as an image of something solid and inert that could only be affected by extremes.

[alvino]

OP,

I’m an American, and I can give you some insight about how Americans use the English language. The sore losers of the Revolutionary War have their own perspective.

Jacques Derrida derided the false mysticism of the spoken word and launched his idea of “antilogocentrism”. Frankly, he believed that the written word was truer. Jacques must be spinning in his grave for what passes as the truth. There are missives which are clearly hoaxes (an email offering you millions of dollars from somewhere in Nigeria), other that are clearly jokes (manipulated photos showing Bush holding a phone upside down), some that are simply wrong (for example, the Thai website that claims that “used goods” are LESS than 6 months old – it should read MORE than 6 months), and poorly researched student papers (your forwarded email). Let’s consider the last point.

Unlike the French with their language police, English has no upper nor lower bounds or constraints. We borrow easily from other languages and cultures, mixing words and phrases of Latin, Greek, French, Italian, German, Welsh, Spanish, mid-Eastern, and on and on. The development of the language and the definition, etymology, is as fascinating as the language itself. Although a simple online dictionary can provide a definition, the real wealth is in the development of the word. For that type of research, you should consider buying a “library dictionary” – something big (2000 pages) and expensive ($150). Too, a thesaurus – a dictionary of synonyms – is almost as valuable. They’re available in many forms, and I’d suggest getting one that also includes an overall design including “conceptual development”.

There are several websites that will send you a word, the etymological development of the word, the etymology of similar words, and an example of the word use. I suggest signing up for a daily email at “www.awad.com”. For a simple definition and simpler etymological reference, try “www.m-w.com”. If you prefer to read English proffered by someone English, and why not, try www.worldwidewords.org.

I would also suggest checking out a poetry website, and study learned examples of imagery. Starting in the 1970’s, the “women’s movement” used the phrase “glass ceiling” as an image to support their belief that women could not obtain the same power and financial status of men. Women would bump their head on the “glass ceiling” and could not rise about that. Decades before that, Langston Hughes described his inability, as a black man, to attain the same status as a white man: “…and who are you that draws your veil across the stars…” Isn’t that beautiful? A veil allows you to see, but not touch – he could see his dreams, but never reach them.

e.e. cummings, and that’s how he spelled his name, used non-conventional spelling, syntax, and punctuation. One poem includes: “i like my body when it is with your body…i like your body.i like what it does…i like softly stroking the shocking fuzz of your electric fur and what-is-it comes over parting flesh…” Isn’t that the most incredible description of “pubic hair” you’ve ever read? He could have written “I like to touch your pubic hair”, but it doesn’t have nearly the impact. Too, if you’re a woman and your boyfriend sent you a Valentine’s Day card, would you prefer to read about “nervous fuzz…electric fur”, or the crass “pubic hair”? Of course, I now expect thousands of Thai women to receive Valentine’s Day cards with Cummings’ sentiment, but they won’t understand a word of it.

In “Throw Mama from the Train”, Billy Crystal portrayed an English teacher for adults. As with many struggling English teacher,s he wanted to write THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. He tried to describe the weather. “It was a ‘hot’ night. No, it was a ‘humid’ night. That’s not quite right…it was a ‘hot and humid’ night.” His mother popped up with, “It was a ‘sultry’ night.” Billy Crystal got upset with his mom, not because of her interference, but because it was the perfect image he couldn’t describe.

In the US, there’s an annoying racist, quasi-political/religious figure whom I personally detest, but he has a way with words. The Rev. Jesse Jackson founded a racially, sexually, and gendered diverse group which is referred to as “the Rainbow Coalition”. It has nothing to do with meteorological phenomena, rather uses a rainbow as an image to portray diversity.

Another method to portray images is using “synesthesia”: purposely mixing the five senses with or without other concepts. For example, comparing “intellectual acuity” and the “clarity of a rung bell”: “Do you understand what I mean?” “Yes – clear as a bell.” Intellectual acuity and eyesight: “I see what you’re saying”, or, “It’s crystal clear.” Intellectual acuity and touch: “I can put my finger on it.” Intuition and olfactory response: “Something’s wrong. I smell trouble.”

Enough of that, let’s look as some American phrases. In any movie, describing any time period, have you ever seen a box of straw under a door? Neither have I, and for good reason: it never existed. “Threshold” is an entrance, a beginning. There’s a threshold (entrance) to a room – having nothing to do with straw. “Driving is the threshold to adulthood” – again, no straw, but a rite of passage, a beginning of another phase of life.

“Dead ringer” is used to describe identical twins (also a terrific movie with Jeremy Irons, playing identical twins – based on a true story). “Bob’s a ‘dead ringer’ for his brother.” It has nothing to do with “warning people that you are alive, and want to get out of the casket”. Another phrase for this concept is “spittin’ image” – “he’s a ‘spittin’ image of his father”…it has nothing to do with saliva.

The main components of a rifle are the “lock” (hammer and trigger assembly), “stock” (the part that is held against your shoulder, and the “barrel” (the long, cylinder from which a projectile is fired). So, “lock, stock, and barrel” describes a complete gun. It can also be used to describe the “completeness of any entity”. For example, it can describe a “concept”: “Did you make the presentation to management?” “Yep, they bought it ‘lock, stock, and barrel’.” It can also describe a “package of products and services”: “Did the travel agent help you?” “Yep, I got the airfare, the limo, the tour tickets – the whole ‘lock, stock, and barrel’ from them.” Too, it can describe something “material”: “Did you buy the new car?” “Yep, all the options I told you about, and even more – the whole ‘lock, stock, and barrel’.” You can also replace L, S, and B with “whole shebang”: “I bought the ‘whole shebang’ at a great price.” God knows how that one crept into the English language. Nevertheless, there it is. Further: “the whole shootin’ match”, “the whole ball of wax” (but not paraffin), or “everything but the kitchen sink” (but not the “kitchen oven”). Too, you can reference certain foods, but not others. Replacing “LSB” with “the whole enchilada” is acceptable, but “the whole tostada” is not. Why? Dunno.

In re: Brass Monkey.....

[Q] From Peter Grace: “Over here in Queensland, it gets pretty cool in the evenings at this time of the year (though it’s probably pretty mild by UK standards). The other day, I used the expression brass monkey weather and was asked to explain. Any ideas?”

[A] The full expansion of the phrase is cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey and is common throughout the English-speaking world, though much better known now in Australia and New Zealand than elsewhere. This is perhaps surprising, since we know it was first recorded in the USA, in the 1850s. It is often reduced to the elliptical form that you give (perhaps in deference to polite society — for the same reason, it has been modified in the US into freeze the tail off a brass monkey). There is a story, often repeated, that the phrase originated in the British navy at the time of the Napoleonic wars or thereabouts. It is said that the stack of cannon balls alongside each gun were arranged in a pyramid on a brass plate to save space, the plate being called a monkey. In very cold weather, the story goes, the cannon balls would shrink and they would fall off the stack.

Don’t let anybody convince you of this. It’s rubbish. There’s no evidence that such brass plates existed. Although the boys bringing charges to the guns from the magazine were known as powder monkeys and there is evidence that a type of cannon was called a monkey in the mid seventeenth century, there’s no evidence that the word was ever applied to a plate under a pile of cannon shot. The whole story is full of logical holes: would they pile shot into a pyramid? (hugely unsafe on a rolling and pitching deck); why a brass plate? (too expensive, and unnecessary: they actually used wooden frames with holes in, called garlands, fixed to the sides of the ship); was the plate and pile together actually called a monkey? (no evidence, as I say); would cold weather cause such shrinkage as to cause balls to fall off? (highly improbable, as all the cannon balls would reduce in size equally and the differential movement between the brass plate and the iron balls would be only a fraction of a millimetre). What the written evidence shows is that the term brass monkey was quite widely distributed in the US from about the middle of the nineteenth century and was applied in all sorts of situations, not just weather. For example: from The Story of Waitstill Baxter, by Kate Douglas Wiggin (1913): “The little feller, now, is smart’s a whip, an’ could talk the tail off a brass monkey”; and from The Ivory Trail, by Talbot Mundy (1919): “He has the gall of a brass monkey”. Even when weather was involved, it was often heat rather than cold that was meant, as in the oldest example known, from Herman Melville’s Omoo (1850): “It was so excessively hot in this still, brooding valley, shut out from the Trades, and only open toward the leeward side of the island, that labor in the sun was out of the question. To use a hyperbolical phrase of Shorty’s, ‘It was ’ot enough to melt the nose h’off a brass monkey.’ ” It seems much more likely that the image here is of a real brass monkey, or more probably still a set of them. Do you remember those sculptured groups of three wise monkeys, “Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil”? Though the term three wise monkeys isn’t recorded earlier than the start of the twentieth century, the images themselves were known much earlier. It’s more than likely the term came from them, as an image of something solid and inert that could only be affected by extremes.

You must be kidding! You are the funniest thing on this thread. Put me to sleep.

[Sir Burr]

England is so small that they ran out of places to bury people ?????

Come on!

There were less than 3 million people in the 1500s in England. What do we do now there are 60 million ?

Whoops! Your ignorance is showing.

Not a shortage of land, but, a shortage of "hallowed ground". Land that has been blessed by the church.

We were all God fearin' Christians back then and only heretics were buried in unhallowed ground, so, that they wouldn't go to heaven.

The statement is probably true.

[The Nemi]

wow isnt this fun ??????????????????

[backflip]

alvino,

Gosh, now you hurt my feelings. Sniff.

I puposely used small words, and typed very slowly, so you could understand it and read it at your own speed of illiteracy.

[Khun Yak]

Well I read through 2 pages of posts now which took me quite a while, cos I was desperately searching for a punchline, you know, the thing which sometimes appears along with jokes...

Or maybe this thread should be considered as one of the riddles ?!?

[englishoak]

[Simbo]

England is so small that they ran out of places to bury people ?????

Come on!

There were less than 3 million people in the 1500s in England. What do we do now there are 60 million ?

yes, but there are still only 3 mil true brits there. think about it.

[stumonster]

Thanks..... quite frankly, I am still interested in the "truth". Seems to be coming very slow.....

this snopes link should answer all your questions about that email skippy

http://www.snopes.com/language/phrases/1500.htm

[skippybangkok]

Thanks for that...... helpfull.