Depressing News Again From Russia...

[catmac]

Looks like the Russian judiciary are determined to resist any change...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19293465

How on Earth a court can rule on what happens for the next 100 years defeats me, but then little in the corrupt cesspit that Russia has descended into suprises me nowadays.

[isanbirder]

This is how the link starts:-

Nikolay Alexeyev has been campaigning for years for the right to stage gay parades in Russia

Continue reading the main story

• 
  

"Moscow's top court has upheld a ban on gay pride marches in the Russian capital for the next 100 years.

Earlier Russia's best-known gay rights campaigner, Nikolay Alexeyev, had gone to court hoping to overturn the city council's ban on gay parades.

He had asked for the right to stage such parades for the next 100 years."

As I read it, Alexeyev asked for the right to stage gay parades for the next 100 years, and the court said NO. That is not the same as the court banning gay parades for 100 years. Presumably the court decision could be reversed (but won't so long as the Putin regime lasts.... which will not be 100 years).

Edited August 18, 2012 by Scott
font enlarged

[LeCharivari]

Agreed, IB - incredibly badly written, even for the BBC!

Alexeyev had asked for "the right to stage such parades for the next 100 years" as that's how long a previous court ruling had already banned them for. This court was simply upholding an earlier court's ban.

I presume there is some city ordinance in Moscow that limits any such bans (or permits) to a maximum of 100 years, which would explain the significance of 2112.

The European Court of Human Rights had already decreed the original ruling in 2010 unlawful, but they have no jurisdiction in Russia.

What with Pussy Riot et al it seems to be a week of bizarre headline news; I have only just understood how an American court can refuse to try the Fort Hood shooter, Major Nidal Hasan, because he has grown a beard and threaten to forcibly remove it. Evidently he is to be tried in a military court, rather than a civil one, and US military law forbids beards. All a bit confusing to me, as in the UK he would be tried in a civil court and there is no problem over those in the British Army (Sikhs, etc) growing beards for religious reasons.

Different horses for different courses, I suppose, but apparently in Russia although the Pussy Riot ruling was widely opposed in Moscow it had more support in the country where the orthodox Russian church is far stronger and I expect the same thing applies to the ban on Gay Pride events as in other Russian cities, such as St Petersburg, they have enacted even more far-reaching anti-gay legislation.

Edited August 18, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Gay pride parades MATTER. They matter a lot especially when an oppressive state bans us gay people from having them at all. I guess Putin's Russia is a on a roll. Poor, poor Pussy Riot! (Convicted and going to hard labor prison.)

More on the horrid oppression against gay people in Russia:

http://www.advocate....de-next-century

Andre Banks, executive director for AllOut.org, condemned the draconian policy and Russian President Vladimir Putin’s silence, saying in a statement, “Remarkably, President Putin has stayed silent as members of his party advance a provocative anti-gay agenda that is putting him on a collision course with his allies in Europe and around the world. Denying 100 years of Pride is no way to make friends in 2012."

Last year, Russian provinces instituted a gag law that bans “gay propaganda,” classified as any type of speech in support of LGBT people. Earlier this month, Madonna openly defied the law during her concert in St. Petersburg, when she passed out symbolic wristbands asked Russians in the audience to “Show your love and appreciation to the gay community. We want to fight for the right to be free. All people should be treated with dignity, respect, and love.”

International gay activists and their proud supporters stand in solidarity with the gay people in Russia living under the thumb of dictator Putin.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

International gay activists and their proud supporters stand in solidarity with the gay people in Russia living under the thumb of dictator Putin.

Not only them, apparently.

I find it all a bit hard to understand and equally hard to view objectively, as the US has recently made taking part in Pride events and support for LGBT rights overseas a matter of formal foreign policy, with Embassies being directed to hold LGBT Pride events at their Embasssies and to take part in overseas Gay Pride events, while at the same time the US is so far behind the "rest of the West" at home in terms of LGBT rights with discrimination in employment and housing on grounds of both gender and sexual preference still legal in the majority of US states.

Maybe they'd be better putting their own house in order first, before telling others what they should be doing.

(edit: read http://glifaa.org/content/obama-clinton-deliver-policy-support-lgbt-human-rights if you think I'm making this up)

Edited August 18, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

International gay activists and their proud supporters stand in solidarity with the gay people in Russia living under the thumb of dictator Putin.

Not only them, apparently.

I find it all a bit hard to understand and equally hard to view objectively, as the US has recently made taking part in Pride events and support for LGBT rights overseas a matter of formal foreign policy, with Embassies being directed to hold LGBT Pride events at their Embasssies and to take part in overseas Gay Pride events, while at the same time the US is so far behind the "rest of the West" at home in terms of LGBT rights with discrimination in employment and housing on grounds of both gender and sexual preference still legal in the majority of US states.

Maybe they'd be better putting their own house in order first, before telling others what they should be doing.

(edit: read http://glifaa.org/co...bt-human-rights if you think I'm making this up)

Typical of you to make this an issue that gives you yet another opportunity to diss America and it's gay civil rights movement. Anyone who understands the basics of American law would know that in the U.S. there are FEDERAL laws and then there are STATE laws. I don't believe you will find employment and housing discrimination against GLBTs being allowed under U.S. federal law when it is a program involving federal funding.

I am very happy for my national government to support gay human/civil rights internationally however they can. Hillary Clinton's "Gay rights equals Human Rights" to a U.N. group was indeed historic and means a lot coming from the leading national power in the world today. You would think other nationalities gay people would usually also appreciate that kind of support, but for some people their obvious anti-Americanism makes it impossible to see anything good coming out of the United States.

Of course the American gay civil rights movement is still a work in progress and gay activists in America appreciate the good will and support of international people as well in the continuing struggles for full equality under the law.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Typical of you to make this an issue that gives you yet another opportunity to diss America and it's gay civil rights movement.

... and how typical of you to happily and continually "diss" the former Soviet bloc, African and Arab and Muslim and Christian countries, and to excuse your own country's total lack of basic domestic LGBT rights legislation on the basis of your country's system of legislation. If something is wrong it is WRONG irrespective of which country you are from or how that country's legislation is organised and I will happily "diss" it, regardless of what country is involved - including my own.

Promoting LGBT rights and LGBT non-discrimination policies abroad while having NO such basic policies or legislation at home and NO such legislation even under debate at national level, except the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) which has been debated and rejected since 1994, is hypocrisy of the highest order.

... I don't believe you will find employment and housing discrimination against GLBTs being allowed under U.S. federal law when it is a program involving federal funding....

You'd be wrong. While regulations were finally issued this year (without any "US federal law" being passed) prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual preference in any housing "program involving federal funding" (although State-funded housing programmes can be as discriminatory as they want) there is NO legislation concerning employment discrimination unless you are employed in Washington DC or work for the US Postal Service or in the Armed Forces. NONE

Edited August 18, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

..... Hillary Clinton's "Gay rights equals Human Rights" to a U.N. group was indeed historic and means a lot coming from the leading national power in the world today. .....

A great speech, definitely, but as far as any "leading" is concerned there has been NO leading by example and her talk about "In many places, including my own country, legal protections have preceded, not followed, broader recognition of rights. ... Laws have a teaching effect. Laws that discriminate validate other kinds of discrimination. Laws that require equal protections reinforce the moral imperative of equality. And practically speaking, it is often the case that laws must change before fears about change dissipate” has been just that - talk.

In June this year she said that "In the United States and around the world, progress is being made”.

"Around the world" - yes, massive progress on most continents over the last two or three decades and the last two or three years.

"In the United States" - well, since last year gays can now serve openly in the military and be killed equally alongside anyone else and in 2003 the US Supreme Court in a majority (6-3) verdict ended laws criminalising "homosexual conduct" in Texas (as well 13 other states) after the highest appelate court in Texas had upheld the law. This wasn't a general "sodomy" law, as it is often painted, but one specifically criminalising "deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex" that had been revised in 1973 when such "deviate" sexual acts had been de-criminalised for heterosexuals. DOMA, passed in 1996, has still not been repealed and is on the books.

Great, there's no discrimination against anyone wanting to parade down the street in their underwear making a spectacle of themselves and those who don't like it can express their disapproval by pigging out on fast-food-chicken, but national laws banning discriminating against LGBT in employment and housing are non-existent. "Laws that discriminate" have NOT been repealed or even debated and NO "laws that require equal protections" have been tabled.

I'm not gloating - I'm simply pointing out that "progress is" NOT "being made" in the US despite the speeches and mutual back-slapping. It isn't happening, and any interference in LGBT issues in other countries can hardly be effective when all those opposing change have to do is point out the USA's own lack of equal rights legislation.

Progress in some countries has slowed. In Australia, for example, the government's prevaricating over gay marriage debate and legislation is simply pathetic and they are starting to be made to look incompetent as well as intransigent - the difference is that Australians are happy to be honest about their own failings and to do something about it, instead of telling everyone else what to do without getting their own house in order first.

[Jingthing]

The topic is RUSSIA.

(Translation: I'm not even READING your off topic American oriented essays but if others are enjoying them, perhaps start a NEW TOPIC on the U.S. gay civil rights movement.)

Edited August 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Of course gay activists have enemies -- the anti-gay activists.

Now the anti-gay activists in Russia are suing pop star MADONNA for "offending" them at her recent concert in St. Petersburg.

A group of Russian activists are demanding 333 million rubles, or nearly $10.5 million, in damages from Madonna, saying they were offended by her Aug. 9 concert in St. Petersburg, when she showed support for gay rights. While Russia as a whole isn’t exactly gay friendly, the anti-gay sentiment is particularly strong in St. Petersburg, where a law passed earlier tis year that makes it illegal to “promote” homosexuality to minors, points out the Associated Press.

http://slatest.slate...petersburg.html

I love what Madonna says in this speech. I love that she invokes Martin Luther King and relates it directly to the international struggle for gay civil rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDfAM4IZJIE&feature=player_embedded

Edited August 20, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

The topic is RUSSIA.

(Translation: I'm not even READING your off topic American oriented essays but if others are enjoying them, perhaps start a NEW TOPIC on the U.S. gay civil rights movement.)

The topic is actually Gay Pride parades in Russia, not "RUSSIA", "gay activists" or "Madonna". My post concerned Gay Pride parades internationally, which US foreign policy now formally promotes, and has nothing to do with "the US gay civil rights movement".

PLEASE STOP TELLING US (AND I DO MEAN US) WHAT TOPICS ARE ABOUT HERE AND WHAT CAN OR CANNOT BE POSTED HERE. THIS IS NOT YOUR FORUM. YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR HERE. IF YOU THINK A POST BREAKS FORUM RULES, REPORT IT INSTEAD OF DERAILING EVERY THREAD FOR YOUR OWN ENDS.

[Jingthing]

...

PLEASE STOP TELLING US (AND I DO MEAN US) WHAT TOPICS ARE ABOUT HERE AND WHAT CAN OR

...

Dude, I have as much right as any other poster to express my opinion about what a thread is about and also my opinion when it has been rudely hijacked. You don't have to listen or agree, that is true. No problem with that.

I wasn't commenting on forum rules and when and if I use the report feature is a PRIVATE matter.

What DID happen here, in my opinion, was that this Russian oriented topic as defined in the OP encountered a blatant attempt at hijacking (Post 5) to a diss the Americans topic, totally unrelated to the news from RUSSIA. Really how many threads about how horrible America is, how stupid the people are, how pitifully uneducated they are, how their evil American drag queen gay activists there ruined the chances of equal gay rights there for 1000 years, how they are total hypocrites, etc., etc. does this gay forum need? (We got it!) Warning to the terminally literal minded: sarcastic exaggeration was employed in this paragraph.

Of course I think a Madonna speech in Russia which addresses gay oppression in Russia is 100 percent ON TOPIC to the thread.

That said, if others want to ride along with the blatantly off topic American bashing hijack, that's not my concern. But I just posted before to make it clear that I won't be playing along with that. Cheers, and please calm down.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Jingthing

[David006]

...

PLEASE STOP TELLING US (AND I DO MEAN US) WHAT TOPICS ARE ABOUT HERE AND WHAT CAN OR

...

Dude, I have as much right as any other poster to express my opinion about what a thread is about and also my opinion when it has been rudely hijacked. You don't have to listen or agree, that is true. No problem with that.

I wasn't commenting on forum rules and when and if I use the report feature is a PRIVATE matter.

What DID happen here, in my opinion, was that this Russian oriented topic as defined in the OP encountered a blatant attempt at hijacking (Post 5) to a diss the Americans topic, totally unrelated to the news from RUSSIA. Really how many threads about how horrible America is, how stupid the people are, how pitifully uneducated they are, how their evil American drag queen gay activists there ruined the chances of equal gay rights there for 1000 years, how they are total hypocrites, etc., etc. does this gay forum need? (We got it!) Warning to the terminally literal minded: sarcastic exaggeration was employed in this paragraph.

Of course I think a Madonna speech in Russia which addresses gay oppression in Russia is 100 percent ON TOPIC to the thread.

That said, if others want to ride along with the blatantly off topic American bashing hijack, that's not my concern. But I just posted before to make it clear that I won't be playing along with that. Cheers, and please calm down.

and what has gay rights and parades in Russia got to do with expat Thailand...just asking...:-)

[endure]

...

PLEASE STOP TELLING US (AND I DO MEAN US) WHAT TOPICS ARE ABOUT HERE AND WHAT CAN OR

...

Dude, I have as much right as any other poster to express my opinion about what a thread is about and also my opinion when it has been rudely hijacked. You don't have to listen or agree, that is true. No problem with that.

I wasn't commenting on forum rules and when and if I use the report feature is a PRIVATE matter.

What DID happen here, in my opinion, was that this Russian oriented topic as defined in the OP encountered a blatant attempt at hijacking (Post 5) to a diss the Americans topic, totally unrelated to the news from RUSSIA. Really how many threads about how horrible America is, how stupid the people are, how pitifully uneducated they are, how their evil American drag queen gay activists there ruined the chances of equal gay rights there for 1000 years, how they are total hypocrites, etc., etc. does this gay forum need? (We got it!) Warning to the terminally literal minded: sarcastic exaggeration was employed in this paragraph.

Of course I think a Madonna speech in Russia which addresses gay oppression in Russia is 100 percent ON TOPIC to the thread.

That said, if others want to ride along with the blatantly off topic American bashing hijack, that's not my concern. But I just posted before to make it clear that I won't be playing along with that. Cheers, and please calm down.

and what has gay rights and parades in Russia got to do with expat Thailand...just asking...:-)

Posts in the gay (and the ladies) forum don't necessarily have to be about Thailand.

[Scott]

There is getting to be way too much personal animosity between posters. You are not required to enter into a debate with those who simply will not agree with you. You can ignore them, you can report them

The alternative is for a moderator to step in and provide posters with a posting holiday.

[LeCharivari]

I still find it hard to understand how Gay Pride Parades can be taken by anyone as some sort of measure of how discriminatory (or non-discriminatory) a country is.

Russia - no Gay Pride Parades allowed; no national (or even local) anti-discrimination legislation; no widespread acceptance; open discrimination.

Thailand - minimal and decreasing interest in Gay Pride Parades (not that there ever has been much, apart from by the gay bars - the "activist" priority is, rightly in my view, increased and visible participation in mainstream parades); minimal national or local anti-discrimination legislation; widespread visibility and acceptance; little open discrimination.

UK - home of World Pride 2012 on 7 July - I must have blinked and missed it, though we Brits do love a good carnival (Notting Hill is the 26th and 27th of this month); comprehensive anti-discrimination legislation in all areas; widespread acceptance; little discrimination. Maybe now we've got it, we don't need to flaunt it; maybe people are just bored of it or by it.

Australia - Sydney Mardi Gras is the world's biggest and best known Gay Pride event; no national anti-discrimination legislation, except on a case-by-case basis; widespread acceptance; little discrimination. Mardi Gras's just fun for all concerned.

America - San Francisco Pride is second only to Sydney in fame and size; no national anti-discrimination legislation and limited local legislation in all areas; questionable acceptance; questionable discrimination.

Just a few examples. Just pointing out that Gay Prides are of different importance in different countries and to different people and its impossible to judge everybody and every country by the same yardstick, however important that yardstick may be to some people.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm going to call this in a very narrow specific way. The topic here is Russia. Further off-topic posts (and especially further posts of a personal nature) will earn posting holidays. The only reason that these holidays are not forthcoming at this moment is because all the objectionable material ends yesterday. I would advise the usual suspects to keep it that way.

PS, David006, you are the proud winner of a warning for violating the subforum guidelines which clearly state that commenting on a topic not being related to Thailand in the gay subforum is trolling. Please be familiar with subforum guidelines before posting (ESPECIALLY in this subforum).