Would You Consider This Cheating ?

[Butterfly]

Cheating? absolutely.

Disloyalty and dishonesty are big relationship killers, in my view.

And how!

Although, as a moderately not-so-old guy (mid30s) dating guys that are kinda young (mid20s), I'd have to say that realistically guys that age are going to cheat on you, almost without exception- too many hormones, too few brains. It's sort of the price you pay for dating someone in that age range. If it's not "cerebral," as Mr. Butterfly calls it, I don't mind turning a blind eye to a VERY little of it (perhaps in the same way as Kat). It's when it's a frequent behavior or there's another relationship competing with yours that I object to it absolutely (or if the man is over 30 and should have tamed his hormones or gotten smarter).

"Steven"

Yeah, the age thing is definitely a factor. So is it cheating really ? or just physical needs ? it seems that most hens will see this as "cheating" without trying to understand the fine prints, and "alienate" their men in the process. Love and Sex are not related, and it's interesting that a female member here has posted that without "sex" there is no relationship. I don't think this is true. Love in a relationship without sex can happen.

Although 'cheating' behaviour will always be a disappointment, it is worth bearing in mind that the sexual drive in people is not a product of our conscious mind, but rather acts on our subconscious and propels us all into situations where it can be satiated. In some people this drive appears stronger than in others, maybe some find it harder to control, or maybe some are tired of having to conform to a socially expected behaviour that runs contrary to their nature. In the battle that some wage between their subconscious instincts and conscious control of their behaviour, it is only human to fail occasionally, and many people do.

That's what I mean by "is it really cheating" ? is it really ? just another silly physical need to fulfill.

[Uma~~]

it's interesting that a female member here has posted that without "sex" there is no relationship. I don't think this is true. Love in a relationship without sex can happen.

The word relationship spans wider than boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife and sure, there are some very meaningful relationships without sex, but personally if I started a relationship with a man and wanted it to blossom, then to me it would not be consumated until we'd slept together.

[camerata]

The word relationship spans wider than boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife and sure, there are some very meaningful relationships without sex, but personally if I started a relationship with a man and wanted it to blossom, then to me it would not be consumated until we'd slept together.

Jeez, I wish women had had this attitude when I was a teenager.

I take it you're not a romantic then, Uma...

... sex is possibly the most important element of a relationship because without it the relationship would just be a strong friendship between two sexes.

On behalf of romantics the world over let me just say that love is the most important element of a relationship because without it the relationship would just be a strong friendship or a satisfying of biological needs between two sexes.

As for cheating on a partner, "selfish" is the right word. Guys like to claim the problem is their hormones, but actually it's their ego that leads them astray - the need to put another notch in the belt, to show they can still cut the mustard when at home the sex is starting to lose some of its excitement. Depending on the reason for it, I could possibly forgive a partner for cheating on me, but the relationship would never be the same again.

[Oishi]

I'm sure that I'm going to catch a lot of heat, but in my opinion, it's cheating. I'm a guy, and I'm not holier than though. I've been guilty of it in the past myself. It's still cheating. When you're involved in a relationship, it's all of you. There are no days off, no timeouts. That's why they call it fidelity. If your partner feels that a casual encounter with a bar girl doesn't count, I believe that in the long run, you'll find out that there's a lot more that he won't count. If he can't be faithfull to you know, he won't later.

Sorry guys! But the truth is the truth!!!

Agree!

[kat]

Cheating? absolutely.

Disloyalty and dishonesty are big relationship killers, in my view.

And how!

Although, as a moderately not-so-old guy (mid30s) dating guys that are kinda young (mid20s), I'd have to say that realistically guys that age are going to cheat on you, almost without exception- too many hormones, too few brains. It's sort of the price you pay for dating someone in that age range. If it's not "cerebral," as Mr. Butterfly calls it, I don't mind turning a blind eye to a VERY little of it (perhaps in the same way as Kat). It's when it's a frequent behavior or there's another relationship competing with yours that I object to it absolutely (or if the man is over 30 and should have tamed his hormones or gotten smarter).

"Steven"

Yeah, but I have mixed feelings about this. When I say very little, I mean very, very little of it. And also, I think I may agree about the age factor. I was in a very passionate relationship with a guy much younger, and I had to give him a bit more leeway, at the end of our 2-1/2 year relationship. And yes, I did turn a blind eye a couple of times, towards the end. But I am not a super, bionic, unattached specimen, but a woman; in the long run - it hurt me, and I had to cut him loose. I wasn't really hurt at the time, only because I did not feel threatened in the least by the girls that he chose. But I think it did damage my ability to form trusting relationships for a long time, and maybe even until this day. However, it also made me realize, I am deserving of a MAN, that has enough sense and experience to appreciate the woman that I am.

Why, are you in love, Butterfly?

Personally, I don't think I'd mind very much if it was a very occassional thing, but I think I am the exception among Western women.

However, there is no way I could date or be involved with a man who chronically patronized bar girls, brothels, or internet porn. It hints at more significant problems, and also an extreme objectification of women.

I am in love with Kat !!!!!!!!1

Don't get too happy. There is no way I would tolerate even a roving eye in my prescence, never mind constant philandering.

Ok let me tell it how it is.

If you are in a relationship it is with that person, not every other person that percy pecker tells you. It really isnt very difficult to say no.

If you cant take control of your loins then i am afraid you are not much of a man. If your feeling horny go home and spank the monkey while thinking of your wife, instead of jumping into the first available bed.

I have been completely faithful to my wife for the last 6 years and if i found out she had cheated on me she would be out the door, i have dedicated my life to her by saying my wedding vows and have no intention of ever breaking those vows, and i expect her to follow those same vows.

Sure the marriage might break down for other reasons but it will not be due to my infeidelity. I trust my wife 100% so i dont worry if she wants to go out and do something, because i am secure enough in my own mind to know that she loves me as i love her.

I believe that anyone that goes out and cheats is very insecure in their lives and relationships and they feel the need to prove to themselves that they are capable of sleeping around, and that they are still attractive to the opposite sex.

Well news flash it isnt big and it certainly isnt clever all you are doing is hurting the person you are supposed to love, grow up get a life and learn to control that thing that dangles between your legs

Yeah, Daleyboy's example is the type of man that most women hold as their ideal.

"Although 'cheating' behaviour will always be a disappointment, it is worth bearing in mind that the sexual drive in people is not a product of our conscious mind, but rather acts on our subconscious and propels us all into situations where it can be satiated. In some people this drive appears stronger than in others, maybe some find it harder to control, or maybe some are tired of having to conform to a socially expected behaviour that runs contrary to their nature. In the battle that some wage between their subconscious instincts and conscious control of their behaviour, it is only human to fail occasionally, and many people do. Others, like Butterfly, find life easier when they don't fight the battle, and who's to say both they and their partners don't live a more contented and happy life because of it?"

(END Fast Eddie's QUOTE)

But - and here is my ambiguity again - I also understand what Fast Eddie is saying here. I can understand what he is saying about failing occassionally, but I would never submit to a relationship of the type that Butterfly is describing, which Eddie uses as an example.

I guess in one case, I would see my partner or mate as a lover and a friend, where we share everything. I think a "failure" would be dealt with within the context of that relationship. If I could find a way to control or compromise on that occassional curiousity or desire to "fail" - very occassionally - a bar fine would be much easier to digest than some girl he seduced somewhere. But I could not make this a way of life.

In the case of Butterfly's rationale, he is a retro throwback to an era which I would never go willingly: i.e. do whatever you want, and lie so as not to be found out and hurt her (or, not to be found out and thrown out of the "game"). You have already hurt her by your blatant disrespect for her as a human being. I have met 17 and 18-year-old guys with more respect.

Sorry Butterfly, but I find this attitude to be one of the worst in men, because you have clearly illustrated here how you see women that you are involved with as nothing more than objects of sex or a collection of body parts, rather than people for whom you could feel respect, friendship and companionship. I think in your case you very well should separate love and sex, because you are obviously not emotionally mature enough to have sexual encounters that are not paid encounters, or with grown women, and you should keep it that way.

I'm sorry if I am coming across as a little rough, but I don't know how else to say it. I actually like Butterfly - as a non-sexual FRIEND, thank the gods

Edited January 29, 2006 by kat

[Butterfly]

No problem, kat, I understand what you are saying. I am not saying what I described before is my "personal" story or I advocate or encourage other men to follow such behaviors. I am interested to understand why it is really cheating.

However, from your comments you are assuming that all love relationship are strongly based on sex and this is where I differ. Also this is an interesting twist as when I was a teenager, girls would insist to fall in love first before going physical. As we age, those things have turn around.

My definition of cheating is to be "involved" romanticly with someone, not only physically. I feel that "love" in a relationship is the most important thing, not sex, and that sexual activities doesn't necessarily maintain that love, even for a woman. It's interesting to see that some women still feel that sex is central for a successful love relationship. This is where I think they are wrong. I think this is where their insecurity is revealed. If they feel they have to control their men mostly through sex, thinking that the "physical" connection will strengthen their "emotional" connection, then they have failed. It doesn't work for "most" men.

There is also another factor about age. As men age, they become even more "pervert". Men are born pigs, and it gets worse as they age. The only way for them not to turn into bigger pigs than they are already is to "castrate" them emotionally, a very delicate operation that requires a lot of skills and often failed to produce the expected results.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Butterfly

[Uma~~]

My definition of cheating is to be "involved" romanticly with someone, not only physically. I feel that "love" in a relationship is the most important thing, not sex, and that sexual activities doesn't necessarily maintain that love, even for a woman. It's interesting to see that some women still feel that sex is central for a successful love relationship. This is where I think they are wrong. I think this is where their insecurity is revealed. If they feel they have to control their men mostly through sex, thinking that the "physical" connection will strengthen their "emotional" connection, then they have failed. It doesn't work for "most" men.

Let us not overlook the fact that there is sex and there is making love. The two are very different, much the same as a mother and a mum are different - anyone with a womb can be a mother but only love makes a mum of a woman.

Anyone can have sex but only the fortunate get to make love with somebody.

[LaoPo]

Anyone can have sex but only the fortunate get to make love with somebody.

Well said, Uma! Some men ("I'm one ) don't understand the difference.

...testosteron?

LaoPo

[kat]

... If they feel they have to control their men mostly through sex, thinking that the "physical" connection will strengthen their "emotional" connection, then they have failed. It doesn't work for "most" men ....

What are you talking about? Suddenly, you have twisted this into women controlling men through sex, when that has not even come up. No one here is talking about manipulation or control. We are talking about a single fact: romantic love usually means attraction, which when it is towards a potential mate, means sexual attraction to most people.

I'm sure that most people would agree, and especially males, if we are dating and are interested, it is with the expectation that we could have a sexual relationship at some point. If not, then men will surely here the words: 'let's just be friends'. Why? Because, most women are not going to be romatically involved with someone that we are not sexually attracted to if we have to sleep with him.

That is the difference between lovers and friends. If you have a non-sexual romantic relationship, then that is very sweet but in general that is not how they start out.

[Sophon]

I am interested to understand why it is really cheating.

To me it's very simple. If your partner would think it's cheating then it is cheating.

Sophon

[Fast Eddie]

Anyone can have sex but only the fortunate get to make love with somebody.

Well said, Uma! Some men ("I'm one ) don't understand the difference.

...testosteron?

LaoPo

Well maybe some men, but in my experience men are far more inclined to seperate the two, and recognise the difference, than women are. But given the fact that male and female sexuality are governed by different areas of the hypothalamus, maybe that should not be surprising. Which kind of leads into Kat's comment to Butterfly

Sorry Butterfly, but I find this attitude to be one of the worst in men, because you have clearly illustrated here how you see women that you are involved with as nothing more than objects of sex or a collection of body parts, rather than people for whom you could feel respect, friendship and companionship. I think in your case you very well should separate love and sex, because you are obviously not emotionally mature enough to have sexual encounters that are not paid encounters, or with grown women, and you should keep it that way.

From dialogues that i have engaged in i have to say that i, and most of my male friends, find it easy to separate love and sex. Basically (even if some of them are not consciously aware), this is because the two are not one and the same, but rather it is generally regarded that the two are different emotion-motivation systems which sometimes interact to produce one of the most pleasurable emotional experiences available to us.

While it is not my cup of tea, i can still see how for some individuals paying for such encounters would appear to be the easiest way of attempting to avoid the combination of the neurobiological systems which regulate this facet of our behaviour, thereby hopefully fulfilling the sexual drive component whilst avoiding the romantic attraction and attachement components, if one hopes to maintain their current relationship (although admittedly, avoiding the active interrelation of these aspects is easier said than done).

Getting to the point, the separation of love and sex does not necessarily indicate any lack of emotional maturity, in my opinion. In fact it could be suggested that someone who is naturally aware of this difference, has an intuitive grasp of the biological instructions they are receiving at different times.

As an aside, we are all manipulated by our biology to an extent that, in my experience, the average person on the street has a very hard time coming to terms with, and in my opinion anyone who thinks that they are in conscious control of their emotional motivations, of a sexual nature, is deluding themselves. Although, of course, we do have a choice about how we proceed with our sexual behaviour.

It's probably also worth mentioning when attempting to explain the male tendency towards 'cheating' (polygynous) behaviour, that males have higher levels of vasopressin and testosterone than females, which leads to increased sexual eagerness, posessiveness and territorial behaviour. Like it or not ladies, there is a difference in the nature of the male and female sexual drive, it's not something men get to choose, and it doesn't go away either. Incidently, the dominant female sexual hormone is oxytocin, which is found to promote feelings of attachement, and from what i've read about it, it sounds like the ladies get the better end of the deal.

Sorry if i've rambled a bit, but it's late, i've just got back from the pub, and i've typed all this so now i'm going to post it

[Butterfly]

Hehehe, Fast Eddie, good explanation

so basically cheating is just a "relative" definition, wether we like ot not. For some men, not to be able to satisfy their sexual appetite, is like to deprive them of food and water. Why should they be blamed for that ? are they really responsible ?

Anyone can have sex but only the fortunate get to make love with somebody.

Well said, Uma! Some men ("I'm one ) don't understand the difference.

...testosteron?

LaoPo

Very true. Does this mean that a man can be technically faithful to his wife when he has sex with bar girls but still makes love to his wife ?

[Butterfly]

... If they feel they have to control their men mostly through sex, thinking that the "physical" connection will strengthen their "emotional" connection, then they have failed. It doesn't work for "most" men ....

What are you talking about? Suddenly, you have twisted this into women controlling men through sex, when that has not even come up. No one here is talking about manipulation or control. We are talking about a single fact: romantic love usually means attraction, which when it is towards a potential mate, means sexual attraction to most people.

Ok maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. In the long run, if women tend to give more importance to sex in a relationship than men, how can they expect this to work ? men will regard sex as a "commodity", women as a comfort of their relationship strength. When men lose their sexual appetite for their partner, women will think of this as the men losing interest in their relationship. This is not necessarily true. However, I can see here how this would send the wrong signals to your partner and how it could lead to serious problem in your relationship. Him cheating would only be a byproduct of his loss of apetite for his partner. Actually some have argued that more marriages would be saved if the men would get "side" actions instead of staying home and getting bored with the wife.

[Oye at Home]

From dialogues that i have engaged in i have to say that i, and most of my male friends, find it easy to separate love and sex. Basically (even if some of them are not consciously aware), this is because the two are not one and the same, but rather it is generally regarded that the two are different emotion-motivation systems which sometimes interact to produce one of the most pleasurable emotional experiences available to us.

Yes, of course it's easy for men to separate love and sex, when they are referring to themselves. (Actually, women can do the same thing, as long as they truly don't think they'll be any consequences).

But as a man, would you go for this: You have a committed relationship with a woman you both really care about, and are really attracted too. She has an ex-boyfriend she no longer loves, but still find very hot. The ex-boyfriend comes over, and you "wink and smile" (as someone so eloquently put on another post) and leave her to it with the boyfriend, while you go shopping? A lot of men want to say, sure, no problem, I can separate love and sex--but in practice--this doesn't work out too well!

[Sheryl]

From dialogues that i have engaged in i have to say that i, and most of my male friends, find it easy to separate love and sex. Basically (even if some of them are not consciously aware), this is because the two are not one and the same, but rather it is generally regarded that the two are different emotion-motivation systems which sometimes interact to produce one of the most pleasurable emotional experiences available to us.

Yes, of course it's easy for men to separate love and sex, when they are referring to themselves. (Actually, women can do the same thing, as long as they truly don't think they'll be any consequences).

But as a man, would you go for this: You have a committed relationship with a woman you both really care about, and are really attracted too. She has an ex-boyfriend she no longer loves, but still find very hot. The ex-boyfriend comes over, and you "wink and smile" (as someone so eloquently put on another post) and leave her to it with the boyfriend, while you go shopping? A lot of men want to say, sure, no problem, I can separate love and sex--but in practice--this doesn't work out too well!

Exactly! I very mich doubt that all these guys saying it shouldn't mater if it was just sex would be comforted by that reassurance if they found out their wife was having an affair...."Don't worry, dear...it was only sex. It just isn't exciting with you anymore and I have instincts to satify. But I still love only you." OK with that, guys? I don't think so...

Women are just as able to separate love and sex as men are. We just prefer not to, given a choice. Some men seem unable to combine the 2 effectively, or at least it takes some learning for them to, while for women it comes quite naturally.

But if love and sex are different things, love with sex is yet a third entity altogether, and more than the sum of its two components. It demands respect and fidelity...fidelity in the sexual and emotional sense.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Sheryl

[Oye at Home]

Women are just as able to separate love and sex as men are. We just prefer not to, given a choice. Some men seem unable to combine the 2 effectively, or at least it takes some learning for them to, while for women it comes quite naturally.

Sadly I don't believe combining love and sex comes quite naturally to women as a group. IF indeed women have a tendency to combine the two more then men, I think it's a learned response. How and why this came to be is an interesting study indeed!

But regardless of how they choose to conduct themselves, neither sex wants their attractive & loved partner to sleep around...

[britmaveric]

Always the danger you might actually fall for someone more than what you have in a committed relationship.

[Fast Eddie]

Exactly! I very mich doubt that all these guys saying it shouldn't mater if it was just sex would be comforted by that reassurance if they found out their wife was having an affair...."Don't worry, dear...it was only sex. It just isn't exciting with you anymore and I have instincts to satify. But I still love only you." OK with that, guys? I don't think so...

That's where the elevated responsiveness to vasopressin and elevated levels of testosterone in males, come into the picture once again. These are associated with an increase in posessiveness and territorial behaviour. That's why it is not rare for males to become agressive and violent when faced with such transgressions, and not rare for people to end up getting killed.

The male and female sexual drive is not the same, the biochemistry involved and subsequent experience are different. When a woman uses her emotional experience of her sexual drive as a reference point when considering male sexual behaviour she is doomed to misunderstanding.

[kat]

"Well maybe some men, but in my experience men are far more inclined to seperate the two, and recognise the difference, than women are. But given the fact that male and female sexuality are governed by different areas of the hypothalamus, maybe that should not be surprising. Which kind of leads into Kat's comment to Butterfly

Sorry Butterfly, but I find this attitude to be one of the worst in men, because you have clearly illustrated here how you see women that you are involved with as nothing more than objects of sex or a collection of body parts, rather than people for whom you could feel respect, friendship and companionship. I think in your case you very well should separate love and sex, because you are obviously not emotionally mature enough to have sexual encounters that are not paid encounters, or with grown women, and you should keep it that way."

... 1. Getting to the point, the separation of love and sex does not necessarily indicate any lack of emotional maturity, in my opinion. In fact it could be suggested that someone who is naturally aware of this difference, has an intuitive grasp of the biological instructions they are receiving at different times.

As an aside, we are all manipulated by our biology to an extent that, in my experience, the average person on the street has a very hard time coming to terms with, and in my opinion anyone who thinks that they are in conscious control of their emotional motivations, of a sexual nature, is deluding themselves. Although, of course, we do have a choice about how we proceed with our sexual behaviour.

It's probably also worth mentioning when attempting to explain the male tendency towards 'cheating' (polygynous) behaviour, that males have higher levels of vasopressin and testosterone than females, which leads to increased sexual eagerness, posessiveness and territorial behaviour. 2. Like it or not ladies, there is a difference in the nature of the male and female sexual drive, it's not something men get to choose, and it doesn't go away either. Incidently, the dominant female sexual hormone is oxytocin, which is found to promote feelings of attachement, and from what i've read about it, it sounds like the ladies get the better end of the deal.

1. I wasn't talking about the separation of love and sex as being immature, I was referring to the proscribed way of dealing with it: lies, deceit, and a tendency to objectify potential mates to the extreme.

2. I like it - the differences; I like when my men are just a little bit possessive, but maybe that's just me. You seem to assume that males are the most sexual creatures, but I think their sexual drives are quite shallow when compared to a woman's. They just crave it a lot more often, and with more partners, but women's sexual drive or response can actually be quite deep and intense, much more so than a man's, on average. I think women are definitely capable of separating love and sex, but the combination of the two, or the familiarity of a stable partner, enable us to experience our sexuality a lot better.

It's usually a clue when a man has not had a lasting sexual relationship with someone. He's probably spent most of his time barely hitting the tip of the, uhm, iceberg.

"Yes, of course it's easy for men to separate love and sex, when they are referring to themselves. (Actually, women can do the same thing, as long as they truly don't think they'll be any consequences).

But as a man, would you go for this: You have a committed relationship with a woman you both really care about, and are really attracted too. She has an ex-boyfriend she no longer loves, but still find very hot. The ex-boyfriend comes over, and you "wink and smile" (as someone so eloquently put on another post) and leave her to it with the boyfriend, while you go shopping? A lot of men want to say, sure, no problem, I can separate love and sex--but in practice--this doesn't work out too well!"

Excellent example. Thanks Oye

Edited January 30, 2006 by kat

[Fast Eddie]

You seem to assume that males are the most sexual creatures, but I think their sexual drives are quite shallow when compared to a woman's. They just crave it a lot more often, and with more partners, but women's sexual drive or response can actually be quite deep and intense, much more so than a man's, on average. I think women are definitely capable of separating love and sex, but the combination of the two, or the familiarity of a stable partner, enable us to experience our sexuality a lot better.

I don't assume that males are the most sexual creatures, just that the nature of their sexual drive is different. Actually, i agree with the rest of what you say, which was what i was kind of getting at when i said that it sounds like the ladies get the better end of the deal

[Lisa28]

I don't want to seem a complete plank, but can someone please explain what a bar fine is or what it constitutes? Might be a slight deviation from the previous few posts though....

L

[Oye at Home]

That's where the elevated responsiveness to vasopressin and elevated levels of testosterone in males, come into the picture once again. These are associated with an increase in posessiveness and territorial behaviour. That's why it is not rare for males to become agressive and violent when faced with such transgressions, and not rare for people to end up getting killed.

The male and female sexual drive is not the same, the biochemistry involved and subsequent experience are different. When a woman uses her emotional experience of her sexual drive as a reference point when considering male sexual behaviour she is doomed to misunderstanding.

"hel_l hath no fury..." so the saying goes. Aggressive and violent? Sadly, I've seen it here on more than a few occasions, and two where a fair amount of blood was drawn--in these cases, the man's blood. Although I'm sure either man or woman is capable of being aggressive and violent--what they do will depend on whether they think they can handle the consequences....

[Jai Dee]

I don't want to seem a complete plank, but can someone please explain what a bar fine is or what it constitutes? Might be a slight deviation from the previous few posts though....

L

Just for information (and yes it is off topic) a "bar fine" is a sum of money paid to the bar to enable a customer to take one of the ladies working there out of the bar.

Hope that clears that up...

[Polly]

[

That's where the elevated responsiveness to vasopressin and elevated levels of testosterone in males, come into the picture once again. These are associated with an increase in posessiveness and territorial behaviour. That's why it is not rare for males to become agressive and violent when faced with such transgressions, and not rare for people to end up getting killed.

The male and female sexual drive is not the same, the biochemistry involved and subsequent experience are different. When a woman uses her emotional experience of her sexual drive as a reference point when considering male sexual behaviour she is doomed to misunderstanding.

John Bobbit may disagree that this is a trait of men only!

[Butterfly]

I think women are definitely capable of separating love and sex, but the combination of the two, or the familiarity of a stable partner, enable us to experience our sexuality a lot better.

Irrelevant to cheating. Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate.

As for women cheating on their men, what's their excuse ? I could turn a blind eye on some occasions if the age difference was an issue or giving some leeway to a relationship about to explode because it being too exclusive. Would those women be as much "immature" as the men because of their little lies and "occasional" deception ? or are they just being cute because they are women "occasionally" chasing men ? I am sure your response will be different. I think you are biased in this regard as you see "most" men being potential "cheaters" because of their physical needs and natural "dishonnesty", while you would see women are just "exploring" their internal sensuality through different sexual partners. I hope I am wrong. So how woud you rate them ? How women who cheat on their men should be rated ? maybe it's a better question to find out what is the real meaning of cheating.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Butterfly

[britmaveric]

I think women are definitely capable of separating love and sex, but the combination of the two, or the familiarity of a stable partner, enable us to experience our sexuality a lot better.

Irrelevant to cheating. Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate.

As for women cheating on their men, what's their excuse ? I could turn a blind eye on some occasions if the age difference was an issue or giving some leeway to a relationship about to explode because it being too exclusive. Would those women be as much "immature" as the men because of their little lies and "occasional" deception ? or are they just being cute because they are women "occasionally" chasing men ? I am sure your response will be different. I think you are biased in this regard as you see "most" men being potential "cheaters" because of their physical needs and natural "dishonnesty", while you would see women are just "exploring" their internal sensuality through different sexual partners. I hope I am wrong. So how woud you rate them ? How women who cheat on their men should be rated ? maybe it's a better question to find out what is the real meaning of cheating.

Butterfy - how should ladies who cheat be treated - exactly the same as their male counterparts.

[Oye at Home]

As for women cheating on their men, what's their excuse ? I could turn a blind eye on some occasions if the age difference was an issue or giving some leeway to a relationship about to explode because it being too exclusive. Would those women be as much "immature" as the men because of their little lies and "occasional" deception ? or are they just being cute because they are women "occasionally" chasing men ? I am sure your response will be different. I think you are biased in this regard as you see "most" men being potential "cheaters" because of their physical needs and natural "dishonnesty", while you would see women are just "exploring" their internal sensuality through different sexual partners. I hope I am wrong. So how woud you rate them ? How women who cheat on their men should be rated ? maybe it's a better question to find out what is the real meaning of cheating.

Dishonesty is dishonesty, and there's no excuse, whether your a man or a woman. A liar's a liar--what's "cute" about that? You want to "explore your internal sensuality" than don't pretend to be in a committed relationship.

[kat]

I have to agree with Oye. A liar is a liar, in my book. And no, I don't think there is anything cutesy about people whether they be men or women, who deceive those whom they are supposed to care about.

And in regards to separating love and sex, I was continuing the dialogue started by someone else on the same point.

[Fast Eddie]

"hel_l hath no fury..." so the saying goes. Aggressive and violent? Sadly, I've seen it here on more than a few occasions, and two where a fair amount of blood was drawn--in these cases, the man's blood. Although I'm sure either man or woman is capable of being aggressive and violent--what they do will depend on whether they think they can handle the consequences....

John Bobbit may disagree that this is a trait of men only!

I haven't said that this a trait of men only, obviously not. I'd have to of spent my life living in an isolated cave, not to have first hand experience of that

What i was talking about was the 'increase' in those characteristics that is generally observed in men, seeing as two of you have quoted me i thought i'd clear up the confusion. I assume that neither of you are going to try and claim that that is not the case.

It's slightly off topic to this debate anyway, but i often hear women remark on the fact that the male reaction to their partners infidelity often seems to be even more pronounced, in general, than females'. There is a biological explanation for it, which is somewhat more compelling than the 'men are more immature, selfish, and prone to double standards' line of reasoning that i have observed on other threads in this sub forum. Just like there are biological explanations for individuals polygynous urges.

Which brings us to the point of the topic, 'what constitutes cheating?'. By definition, if you have a contract or agreement with another individual and then renege on your word, you are cheating that individual. The problem arises when some individuals are forced to make promises that run contrary to their nature. Can you expect to hold such an individual to their word? I can well believe that it must be an unsettling situation for some, and the whole situation is not always as simple as someone making a conscious decision that from now on they will abide by a certain code of conduct regardless of circumstances.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Fast Eddie

[Fast Eddie]

In all fairness, i should have added to my last post that i think that the problem also arises because some individuals have little intention of attempting to keep their word, and have little understanding of what love and respect really is. But not everyone who 'cheats' automatically belongs in that group.

That should be me just about done with this topic now