Poorly Skilled Drivers And The Law: Thailand

[eezergood]

And Nisa I'm not referring to the UN and it's politic I'm referring to UN/WHO which is not voted or vetoed! I could fill pages here but it would be pointless, with you anyway!

You should come here to Patong mate - I think you would have a heart attack, even worse than Qatar (I've lived there) and THOSE monkeys have totaly wreskless abandonment. Phuket is SPECIAL

[Asiantravel]

why is it that these threads always seem to end up at a personal level, give it a rest guys and just agree to differ

Two accidnts I have personally observed in Thailand involved both drivers on mobile phones, I observed as I walking to cross a road, I have seen many near misses, I also haven't been on the road any one day here and have not come across the aftermath of an accident

yes even if you give Thai drivers the benefit of the doubt and say they have reasonable skills

despite the pathetically poor standard of driver training here, they definitely don't have

enough skills to drive and speak on the mobile phone at the same time.

[cup-O-coffee]

There are a lot of good points here on what "should" be done, and there are also quite a few truthful and grim observations about these Thais who put themselves and everyone around them in life-threatening danger when they turn over an internal combustion motor.

Cowboys and Bovines

What the Cowboys SHOULD Behave Like

Cowboys are supposed to be riding herd on all this and maintaining an orderly flow.

Translated: The Police here

What the Bovines SHOULD Behave Like

Bovines are supposed to allow the cowboys to show them the way when the general herd knowledge does not provide this support the answers. The calves follow the cows, who in turn follow the bulls with bells or whatnot. Order is achieved and maintained with very little effort.

Translated: Motorists, in their respective lanes, are all supposed to go in one, fairly uniform direction at a pace that does not cause injury or alarm to those around them, and those who exit and merge the flow. Children are not allowed to operate a motor vehicle, since they are not at an age to distinguish right from wrong, or exercise self control and consideration for their behaviors and the consequences...period.

How the Cowboys Behave Instead

Instead, the cowboys, appearing to suffer from Lyme disease, remove their selves from their original duties and instead take up posts to single out certain bovines and take pot shots at them; and at all times being sure to remain near the herd unless absolutely necessary in order to avoid getting trampled to death.

Translated: Being far outnumbered by insane motorists, they cave in to the greater will of the motorists and degenerate to non-performance their traffic duties and responsibilities in order to avoid injury or death at the hands of these motorists. Instead, and to give them a sense of doing something, they exercise their skills at taking money and writing useless tickets to bloat the obsolete and FUBAR databases.

How the Bovines Behave INSTEAD

Instead, what we have here are cows, bulls and calves who (all in their stupid herd-minded way) run amok in a stampede of panic, of every variety of proportion you can imagine. Bulls, cows and calves all alike get in the way and either get trampled to death, broken, battered or cause a pile-up. The calves suffer the worst.

Translated: Having no consideration for anything or anyone beyond the immediate and uppermost single thought in their mind, Thai motorists demonstrate that they have no spacial abilities, no foresight as to the consequences of their intended immediate, no self-control, no moral and ethical restraint, no considerate thought for others, nay, even more no awareness of others around them, no ability to use mirrors, or to look in all directions before pulling forward, no ability to stop on red, or flashing red, or conjunction... just GO GO GO; and so on.

The Cause behind the Bovine's Behavior

The cause of the stampede is that the bovines all suffer mad cow or Lyme disease.

Translated: This could quite conceivably be due to a chronic case of bad culture; a culture that would not fit into, nor be accepted wholesale, in any other culture worldwide other than here. This culture breeds and nurtures stupidity and ignorance (the grandfathers of all other bad cultural behaviors); yet cleverly disguised under the euphemistic excuses such as acceptance, politeness, innocence, etc.

Nothing will ever change here any time soon just so long as the culture remains the same.

The utter and absolute LUNATIC, whom that article quotes, would be just as utterly, emphatically and galactically stupid enough to go further and blame the following Manufacturers for not developing idiot-proof technology so that his blessed bovines would remain safe, innocent and protected from themselves:

Manufacturers of road signs and stop lights: To FORCE the innocent Thais to obey their warnings

Manufacturers of reflective road paint, reflective decals light poles: To FORCE the innocent Thais to be guided by them

Manufacturers of railroad crossings: To FORCE the innocent Thais to patiently wait

Manufacturers of footpaths: To FORCE the innocent Thais to keep their motor vehicles off them

Manufacturers of concrete and asphalt: To FORCE innocent Thais to understand behavior on certain surfaces

Mother Nature: To FORCE the innocent Thais to understand weather conditions and how driving is affected

Manufacturers of guardrails and overpasses: To FORCE innocent Thais from driving through and off of them

Manufacturers of road barriers: To FORCE the innocent Thais from driving head-on into them

Manufacturers of Mobile devices: To FORCE the innocent Thais from using them while operating a vehicle

And so on...

OK. Flame out!

Edited September 15, 2012 by cup-O-coffee

[NangrongJ]

Anyone that quotes wikipedia is in desperate need of enlightenment! ''Usually'' ''indicating'' that's text speak! So what does the exclamation mark inside a warning triangle mean (uk)? The exclamation mark varies according to the context and conversation and I was using it to emphasise a point which I seem to be struggling to do with you as you cannot accept that Thailand has a shocking standard or driving, driver training, testing and compliance.

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make but anyone as badly informed as you and refers to wikipedia for facts is a source of amusement.

[eezergood]

+1

[NangrongJ]

Nisa - whilst we are ( or you are) talking ab out grammar, your badge states...''focus on the good while staying aware of the bad''. Do you think that makes sense?

[NangrongJ]

I've never been stalked before but keep coming Nisa, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be enjoying it as much as this! If you were real I'd keep you as a pet.

[Rosco911]

What a load of bull.

The problem is a total disregard of traffic laws, both by drivers and law enforcement.

Garbage......the laws aren't taught in the first place.....have you seen what's involved in the Thai driving test? It's a joke.

Agree the test is a joke and in most cases the licence is granted due to back handers and nothing to do with the drivers skill.

[Nisa]

At least things are going in the right direction...

But still a ways to go ....

But as long as you have a higher percentage of motorbikes on the road vs cars, you're going to see higher death counts .... especially with there still being so many cars.

http://www.thaiwebsi...araccidents.asp

Nisa, why don't you ask yourself: What decisive event took place in 2003 that not only stopped the rise in traffic related deaths but also initiated a rapid and continuous decline in numbers. If you find nothing then your statistic can rightfully be attributed to "creative accounting".

I've been visting Thailand since 2006 and took up permanent residence in August this year. Any change in traffic behaviour I've witnessed so far was for the worse.

Road deaths go up and down yearly in countries even when the over all trend is going down.

In Thailand the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is twice

http://en.wikipedia....hailand_by_year

In the USA the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is also two

http://en.wikipedia....in_U.S._by_year

In the UK the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is three

http://en.wikipedia....s_Great_Britain

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nisa

[eezergood]

Its not a test! Its a driving TRY, aim & steer

[draftvader]

Looking at those stats and having experienced time in the "top 3" countries whilst possessing a UK Driving Licence I have to say that more than 1 country is "cooking the books". Looks to me like Malaysia is being honest whilst India and Thailand have faulty calculators. I'm surprised that Indonesia is not up there with them. Having travelled extensively throughout Asia, The Americas, Europe and Australasia I can say that Southern and Eastern Asia top my personal danger list with India, Thailand and Indonesia being the scariest 3 by a LONG way. Take a bus from Bangkok to Had Yai, then take the local bus to the border. On the other side catch another public bus to the nearest town (forget the name) then catch an interstate bus onto KL. I promise you that you will feel a LOT more relaxed on the Malaysian side by the time you get to KL. For a start the roads are actually good quality and incorporate safety aspects in most areas.

Back to Thailand it should not surprise anybody to know that, for all the statements made by politicians/public/expats, NOTHING will change for a VERY simple and obvious reason. Money. More specifically car and oil sales. Start to limit the numbers of people that can drive or remove people from the roads for bad driving and you are starting to limit the amount of money to be made in these areas. Can you see anything changing whilst this motivator is there? The BIG people here have superbly experienced drivers and VERY safe cars to move around in. The BIGGER people even have the road closed to remove the dangers. The rest of us just keep on taking the risks every day whilst filling their pockets. Simple, effective and much more profitable.

[FarangTalk]

Remember those stats only include those that die at the scene of an accident, not those unfortunates that die as a result of their injuries.

The Police have admitted numerous times that the road death tolls are vastly under-reported, and are probably double what the stats show.

[richard_smith237]

I for one think in general Thai drivers are quite skilled. They can get very close to other vehicles and they have rather good judgement of the space 1" around their car. I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents.

BUT - Drivers in Thailand appear not to be able to predict very well: hesitation causes accidents, not identifying with the use of common sense that some things are just dangerous causes accidents - That attitude that 'Its ok I've done this before' kills...

I don't believe its the Thai driving skills that should be in question, rather the attitudes of those behind the wheel.

[FarangTalk]

Looks to me like Malaysia is being honest whilst India and Thailand have faulty calculators.

Bang on the cash son.

[NangrongJ]

The latest stats available are 2009. Yes we do ,look at trends as this gives a better indication but the methods of collecting information and data is changing but ultimately it has to come first from the said country and then be verified. Thailand has only one source and that;s the police. In the UK we have many sources DSA.IAM, DIA, RoSPA, THINK just to name a few. They all independently collect data and all seems to match up. Thailand will not allow outside sources to verify so there are conclusions to be drawn here. It's not always malicious as it is costly to gather such information and in some rural areas information isn't even collected.

The International Road Federation (http://www.irfnet.ch/) will be publishing new stats at the end of this month (I've already seen them but not possible to download). They work closely with the world bank UN/WHO and have some of the words leading experts onboard.

[Nisa]

Its not a test! Its a driving TRY, aim & steer

Actually there is no "Driving Test" and the closest comes to a fake gas and brake pedal to test reaction/reflex .. no aiming or steering.

[NangrongJ]

farang talk - you make a very good and valid point when you state ...''that these only include those who die at the scene''. The UN/WHO requirement is anyone who dies within 30 days and that's one of the points Thailand does not agree with Indeed, in some cases where proof is given, usually through civil litigation, this has included deaths many months afterwards.

[Nisa]

Remember those stats only include those that die at the scene of an accident, not those unfortunates that die as a result of their injuries.

The Police have admitted numerous times that the road death tolls are vastly under-reported, and are probably double what the stats show.

That is actually false and you can find numerous links on ThaiVisa to Thai stats and how they are derived and they are not only deaths at the scene. I forget the exact time but believe deaths are up to 30-days after the accident.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nisa

[smedly]

why is it that these threads always seem to end up at a personal level, give it a rest guys and just agree to differ

Two accidnts I have personally observed in Thailand involved both drivers on mobile phones, I observed as I walking to cross a road, I have seen many near misses, I also haven't been on the road any one day here and have not come across the aftermath of an accident

yes even if you give Thai drivers the benefit of the doubt and say they have reasonable skills

despite the pathetically poor standard of driver training here, they definitely don't have

enough skills to drive and speak on the mobile phone at the same time.

The truth of the matter is that for e.g. the UK system - most people will go through the cycle, driving instructor - take the test, some will go through it several times and some will never pass it

If you look at the reasons why the UK have such a system it is very very basic and can be broken down into three areas

To pass a test and obtain a driving licence you need to show -

You can control a motor vehicle safely

You understand how to apply that control on a public road

You know what all the signs mean and have an understanding of the highway code

This is all basic stuff and by no means makes you a good driver, that is why in countries like the UK there are constant government advertisements addressing aspects of road use that seem to be the cause of most accidents.

There are three stages of an accident - doing something wrong - loosing control - not being able to gain control again

Doing something wrong starts the chain - either you or another road user, this can generally be avoided if people adhere to the rules and drive safely and is why in the UK you have instruction and tests and also why you have the police to enforce the rules and discourage people from breaking them.

None of us are taught what to do if you lose control unless you have taken an advanced driving course (which I have), it will allow you to possibly regain control or help you avoid losing control in the first place

What I notice in Thailand is there is a very high incidence of the first stage of an accident "doing something wrong" and and extreme lack of enforcement, this doesn't always result in an accident in fact the skill level of a lot of drivers here is often quite good - I'd even go as far as saying better than UK, the Thai road awareness is high, in the UK people tend to relax more and are often caught off guard expecting everyone to do the right thing - when someone doesn't I'd say it more often results in an accident that it does here.

There are lots of ways to look at Thailands driving - I almost find it safer here because I am expecting people to do cazy things, some have mentioned on this thread about minivan drivers - I agree but the effect is I am always careful when I'm around them along with all the other hazzards I'm aware of

The driving test in the west does not make you a good driver it simply shows that you have a very basic ability to drive a car and understand the rules, I never took lessons and passed my car test first time

[FarangTalk]

there is no "Driving Test" and the closest comes to a fake gas and brake pedal to test reaction/reflex .. no aiming or steering.

Wrong again, there is a practical driver's test in an actual motor vehicle. I had to do it.

The Thai driver's test consists of; reaction tests, eyesight and colour blindness tests, video followed by written test (will vary depending on office), and practical test using a motor vehicle.

They made us drive around something that resembles a go-kart track. There is a hill start, stopping near a kerb and a reverse parallel park (which 70% failed. On observation, 95% were incompetent at this maneuver and just got lucky on the day and that is no exaggeration).

[NangrongJ]

Although we seemed to have digressed of the main topic I will elaborate on statistics. I mentioned the methods of collecting data were changing and that's because of the inaccurate data that came out of many Western countries and in particular the USA and UK. Why? Well those of us who have lived there will have noticed the rise in civil litigation claims, claims companies and specialist lawyers forcing claims on whiplash and highlighting minor injuries. The insurance companies are masters at collecting data and what came out of this was out of proportion. It now seems some injuring will not be included.

[draftvader]

At least things are going in the right direction...

But still a ways to go ....

But as long as you have a higher percentage of motorbikes on the road vs cars, you're going to see higher death counts .... especially with there still being so many cars.

http://www.thaiwebsi...araccidents.asp

Nisa, why don't you ask yourself: What decisive event took place in 2003 that not only stopped the rise in traffic related deaths but also initiated a rapid and continuous decline in numbers. If you find nothing then your statistic can rightfully be attributed to "creative accounting".

I've been visting Thailand since 2006 and took up permanent residence in August this year. Any change in traffic behaviour I've witnessed so far was for the worse.

Road deaths go up and down yearly in countries even when the over all trend is going down.

In Thailand the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is twice

http://en.wikipedia....hailand_by_year

In the USA the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is also two

http://en.wikipedia....in_U.S._by_year

In the UK the number of years deaths have gone up since 1999 is three

http://en.wikipedia....s_Great_Britain

Sorry Nisa. Got to stop you here. These stats are not comparable. Firstly they are compiled by agencies within the respective countries, secondly they are constructed differently. As an example take a look at the Thai data. This data states for 2004-2006 that they have used a "new definition of "registered vehicles"".

In the UK there is a comparison with the methodology for making unemployment fall by each government. They re-define unemployed. I have been made redundant and lost my job on a number of occasions (hence my career change). Each time I "signed on" I was described as a "jobseeker" and claimed "jobseeker allowance". Interestingly I was never officially unemployed as I always took employment again within the 6 months BEFORE you are officially unemployed. Think about this en masse. A person loses their job. The highest number of people are unemployed for 1 day because it is hard to see how they would get a new job that quickly. On the 2nd day that number drops and continues to do so throughout the 6 months. A fraction of people that lose their jobs are officially unemployed. This allows the government to report MASSIVELY lower data to the public to increase confidence.

Back to Thailand you can imagine how many accidents AREN'T reported with minor damage being settled by cash at the road-side and no police involvement unless there is a dispute. However in the UK and US most accidents will be reported to one insurance company or another and the police (as you need their incident number to make the claim and the UK/US legal system makes claiming worthwhile...and you feel that way when you pay the premiums!!!) therefore ensuring more accurate data.

It is nearly impossible to make any meaningful comparison using this data as the data is gathered in such wildly different manners.

The UK figures even factor in traffic levels (see 2010) so is probably pretty accurate.

The US data has a good comparative "fraction of population" that provides a clear picture of how dangerous the roads are with that figure making real progress over the past 20 years.

The Thai data has the majority of its down arrows in the years where they have redefined the main factor in the figures (5 arrows out of 6 in the a 3 year period). Take out this erroneous data and you have a meaningful statistic.

Just so you know this is my job. Mostly I apply this thinking to company strategies for a living, but this data interpretation is data interpretation. It is important to make data vague enough that it can be manipulated to please the target demographic.

[FarangTalk]

Remember those stats only include those that die at the scene of an accident, not those unfortunates that die as a result of their injuries.The Police have admitted numerous times that the road death tolls are vastly under-reported, and are probably double what the stats show.

That is actually false and you can find numerous links on ThaiVisa to Thai stats and how they are derived and they are not only deaths at the scene. I forget the exact time but believe deaths are up to 30-days after the accident.

No, it is absolutely correct.

According to the World Health Organisation, the death toll from road accidents in Thailand is among the worst worldwide.Officially, between 2000 and 2010, an average of 12,000 people were killed on the country’s roads each year, but as police record a death only if it occurs at the scene of the crash – rather than within 30 days as is accepted practice in most other countries – these figures are widely accepted to be distorted.The real figure is estimated to be closer to 20,000 annually.This compares with 3,000 deaths a year in the UK – a country with a similar sized population.The British Embassy in Bangkok confirms that last year 17 British nationals died in road traffic accidents in Thailand and a further 36 were seriously injured.Most back-packers are aware of the risks of riding motorcycles or scooters, but few are aware of the hazards of travelling by buses.According to the Thai travel industry’s trade publication TTR, coach operators plying their trade on Highway 1 are notorious for speeding and bus drivers are often under the influence of alcohol, pep pills and drugs.There are frequent accidents and highway police take little or no legal action against the companies that are usually owned by elite or powerful members of the Thai society who consider themselves above the law.

http://www.wordsonli...hailands-roads/

Edited September 15, 2012 by FarangTalk

[NangrongJ]

daftvader - Nail on the head. There are so many agencies providing so many different methods that it is now taking up so much time just to evaluate the methods of collecting data. And yes, whenever there is a change of government, in particular the uk then the methods change. That was one of the first things the Conservative's did.

[NangrongJ]

smedly - which advanced test in uk did you take? Just curious as I've been an examiner for 2 of them and taken all of them.

[FarangTalk]

From the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office official website.

An International Driving Permit or Thai driving licence is required to drive in Thailand.

In Thailand 124,855 people were killed in road traffic accidents between 2000 and 2010 meaning that on average there were over 12,000 deaths a year from road traffic accidents during this period. In the UK there have been on average about 3,000 deaths from road traffic accidents each year over the past decade. In any comparison of these statistics, you should note that there is a difference in the method of calculating statistics for road deaths in Thailand (at the scene of the accident) and the UK (within 30 days of the accident). The risk of death or injury on the road increases if you travel at night.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/thailand#roadtravel

Keep 'em comin' Nisa, I'll keep knocking 'em down.

[Nisa]

The latest stats available are 2009. <snip> Thailand has only one source and that;s the police. In the UK we have many sources DSA.IAM, DIA, RoSPA, THINK just to name a few.

Note the sources.

http://www.atransociety.com/2012/pdf/pdfSymposium2008/download/ppt/2._Dr._Pichai.pdf

[NangrongJ]

I've tried to explain to Nisa the complexity of gathering such information as it does not come from one source. The UK Embassy collects such data and contributes to IRF/UN/WHO but also insurance companies. I read last year about 3 Australians involved in an accident where the taxi-bus they were travelling in as passengers crashed whilst overtaking. They suffered broken bones and recovered but had great difficulties with the insurance claim as there was no record of the accident! It came down to the owner of the taxi bus company admitting it which took almost a year and he only admitted it when he realised he wouldn't have to pay anything.

[NangrongJ]

Ultimately the Thai Police provide the stats no matter who else is involved, have a think about that.

[Nisa]

From the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office official website.

An International Driving Permit or Thai driving licence is required to drive in Thailand.

In Thailand 124,855 people were killed in road traffic accidents between 2000 and 2010 meaning that on average there were over 12,000 deaths a year from road traffic accidents during this period. In the UK there have been on average about 3,000 deaths from road traffic accidents each year over the past decade. In any comparison of these statistics, you should note that there is a difference in the method of calculating statistics for road deaths in Thailand (at the scene of the accident) and the UK (within 30 days of the accident). The risk of death or injury on the road increases if you travel at night.

http://www.fco.gov.u...land#roadtravel

Keep 'em comin' Nisa, I'll keep knocking 'em down.

Yea and it is wrong, as I said, look at the stats from Thailand which define how the numbers are derived and their source and not your countries travel statement web page which has other inaccurate assumptions too.

I cannot find a working link but you can refer back to this thread or do your own search as it gets old showing searching out compiled data just to have people believe what they want anyway ... http://www.thaivisa....50#entry4948538

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nisa