U S Wants The Film "innocence Of Muslims" To Be Removed From Google

MaxYakov · September 22, 2012

@MaxYakov This topic is about the Islamic world response to a film and the extreme reaction that resulted. In this forum there are a large number of posts saying why do some people in the Muslim world get so offended as well as the supposition that Islam is the enemy of the West . So you still don't get the point I was making by using the words "Empathize with your enemy". To contribute to understand the context of my post I provided the definition of empathy below that is certainly not in vogue by many on this forum.

"Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another".

I trust you now understand. - over & out

Edit: Your post "Well we finally agree on something! Any ideas on how to 'empathize' with these 'nutcases' by any reasonable definition of the word?" No & I guess it will eventually lead to an attack on Iran's nuclear development facilities, unless Iran can conclusively prove they are not producing or attempting to produce weapons grade material.

Last I looked, this thread was about:

U S Wants The Film "innocence Of Muslims" To Be Removed From Google

As far as empathizing with the people protesting the film and their 'feelings' goes, I'm more concerned about their actions now and in the future, whatever their 'feelings' are. I'm not sure I have the 'capacity to recognize' their 'feelings' and I'm certainly not willing to take any responsibility for them. I'll think clinical psychiatrists may be better trained and experienced for that.

Using McNamara's definition of 'empathy', I predict more of the same actions by them unless something really 'dramatic' (maybe 'catastrophic' would be a better word) happens.

As far as McNamara's use of the 'empathy' word, goes I think he was in a situation similar to what the Gordon Gekko character in 'Wall Street' encountered: "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good". For the lack of a better word, eh? How about 'self-interest?' And to McNamara, how about 'statesmanship' or 'diplomacy?'

Edited September 22, 2012 by MaxYakov

Grumbles · September 22, 2012

I've had enough of this <deleted>. If the muslims aren't allowed to watch this type of movie for religious reasons , how the hell do they know what they are protesting and killing people for??

It's just another excuse to create havoc. All they are successfully doing is increasing anti muslim feelings around the globe.

I haven't watched the video. Why? Because I have more important things to do with my time. I couldn't give a rat's about it.

The more publicity and outrage it causes, the happier (and richer) the people behind the movie will be.

The sooner the US pulls out of these muslim countries that don't want them there anyway, the safer their people will be.

Smart move: Cut diplomatic ties (and aid) bring everyone home and send all the others back to their countries.

If your neighbour makes their dislike of you pretty clear, are you going to feed him and give him money, knowing full well that he's going to do you some serious damage at the first opportunity he gets?

simple1 · September 22, 2012

@ MaxYakov, talking of a potential Israeli strike again Iranian nuclear facilities did you see this in another thread?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-international-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

maidu · September 22, 2012

The Muslim community in the West, most of whom it appears have been seriously unsettled, if not shocked, by what has occurred, are being called upon to take some responsibility for the mostly young and mostly male yahoos in their midst who seem determined to tear down whatever goodwill has been built up between the Muslim communities and their fellow citizens. The non-Muslim majority in free societies are no longer going to accept the blame for the emotional insecurity of the Muslim youth. Muslim parents are going to have to look at themselves and ask what they and their peers have done to create this monster and what they are doing to delegitimize it..

Why don't we see Muslim communities in America ever rioting over all these perceived offenses against their prophet and religion? Is it because we have so many guns out on the streets and it wouldn't be a good idea flashing anti-American jihadi signs? Or is it because America gets the higher quality immigrants - the ones coming to build a better life through hard work, while in Europe and Australia they are going to get government handouts?

I don't see it as guns. Not a carrot-and-stick thing. Muslims in the US are mostly a reasonable bunch. They've acclimated in America, and most of them probably see the muslim uprisings as the infantile razzle that it is. Muslims need to come in to the 21st century. Many still cling to A.Komeini types as great thinkers. Komeini justified child rape, for Allah's sake, He said it was alright if the rapist's penis only penetrated the child's privates not past its 'crown'. Be careful if you take young daughters with you if you visit Iran. Here's a rant about another God, to refute the Islamic claim that 'There is no God but Allah'....

Gertrude Be Praised

SamSipEt · September 22, 2012

The best response to this whole sorry affair that I have seen so far

Edited September 22, 2012 by SamSipEt

softgeorge · September 22, 2012

It is fair, I think, to generalize that Muslims in Islamic countries favour Sharia as a foundation for strong and well-disciplined families and communities.

Well-disciplined - is that what they call honor killings and rioting?

apparently so, they call it civilisation islamic style.

simple1 · September 22, 2012

It is fair, I think, to generalize that Muslims in Islamic countries favour Sharia as a foundation for strong and well-disciplined families and communities.

Well-disciplined - is that what they call honor killings and rioting?

apparently so, they call it civilisation islamic style.

There are Muslim run charities in places such as Afghanistan, Pakistan and Jordan that provide shelter and support for women who believe they are at risk of the likes of honour killing. A very, very slow beginning, but people are making the effort at the same time putting their lives at risk.

thaibeachlovers · September 22, 2012

I am an atheist, I hate everything that religon stands for, I hate to the bone what it has done to millions of inocent people throughout mans sordid history, for supposidly such a good thing it has been responsible for more death and conflict than any other single thing - why don't people get that ?

I also believe in freedom of speech but that does not give me the right to insult or disrespect someones beliefs but equally these people who are protesting right now need to take a long hard look at themselves and see how a funny video compares to walking into a packed supermarket with a bomb strapped to their waist and blowing up woman and children, if they honestly think that their god approves this behavior then we are lost, I don't know how conflict can be solved throughout the world but I do know what is right and what is wrong.

Very soon on our planet something is going to snap, we already see dangerous alliances forming between countries, greed and power has already dealt a serious blow to world economies - what's next ?

What's next? War. But our species (and ants) are used to war. It's not all bad. We're already waaay beyond the carrying capacity of this one small planet. There are other ways to keep human populations from exploding too fast (pestilance, toxic chemicals, too small birth canals, drunken drivers, terror attacks, mature adults choosing to not have children, natural disasters, etc.) .....war is yet another way.

< We're already waaay beyond the carrying capacity of this one small planet.>

Very well put, but try getting a politician to admit that these days!

Another way is climate change ( whether caused by people or Gaia ) causing droughts in crop producing areas > mass starvation > billions die > population balance restored.

Steely Dan · September 22, 2012

Well we finally agree on something! Any ideas on how to 'empathize' with these 'nutcases' by any reasonable definition of the word?

No, this is why we have a clash of civilizations. Moderate and rational people may exist on both sides, but there are enough who aren't mainly who follow Islam who will never be rational.

thaibeachlovers · September 22, 2012

Again...as I have stated in other threads about this new Islamist

uprising....It ain't gonna end anytime soon. And these fools had

better realise that the US isn't gonna detain, arrest, incarcerate

the Coptic Christian mastermind because it goes the US

Constitution' Bill Of Rights...1st Ammendment. It would also

be good that if folks from the so called "Western World" try

to comprehend just how much Islam effects those who are

born into said religion. It would be nice if Muslims try and under-

stand the West but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon

either....Perhaps the old Randy Newman song " Political

Science" fits in here at this moment in the worlds history......

Link to the song....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGO42gvCSPI

Just watched "Fog of War" interview with McNamara, rule #1 empathise with your enemy. Right now definitely not happening on either side of the debate as anyone attempting to do is called an appeaser. Obama is trying, but being shouted down by the right of politics.

I just reviewed Lesson #1: Empathize with your enemy of the 'The Fog of War'. It was explained by McNamara by means of a review of the Cuban missile crisis and the need to reply either to a 'soft' message or a 'hard-line message' sent by the Kremlin to end the crisis. The decision was made to reply to the 'soft' message in order to give Khrushchev a rationale he could tell the Russian people to justify their leaving Cuba. Khrushchev could explain leaving Cuba by claiming that it prevented invasion and destruction by the USA.

As McNamara said in the 'The Fog of War' explaining Lesson #1 (transcribed by me from the soundtrack):

That's what I call empathy. We must try to put ourselves inside their skin and look at us through their eyes to understand the thoughts that lie behind their decisions and their actions. Khrushchev's advisors were saying 'there could be no deal unless you somewhat reduce the pressure on us when you ask us to reduce the pressure on you.'

I think that this is not exactly the kind of 'empathy' that most of us had in mind from your post. Wouldn't it be more fitting under the heading of "know your enemy?"

It appears as though this logic would more aptly apply to the Iranian nuclear effort. Would they back down from obtaining nuclear weapon capability? Can we 'empathize' with them on this issue, and give them an out? Is there really any way to reason with Islamic fanatics and isn't the 'The Fog of War' really not that analogous here since it's not Khrushchev, the Kremlin and the Russian people we're dealing with?

Incidentally, 'The Fog of War' has a downright eerie and hypnotizing soundtrack by Philip Glass and worth watching for the music alone, IMHO. McNamara is just ... well ... eerie. Anyway, it's history, so who cares?

I hope you were being sarcastic when you said who cares about history. As the saying goes, "those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it", or something like that.

thaibeachlovers · September 22, 2012

Again...as I have stated in other threads about this new Islamist

uprising....It ain't gonna end anytime soon. And these fools had

better realise that the US isn't gonna detain, arrest, incarcerate

the Coptic Christian mastermind because it goes the US

Constitution' Bill Of Rights...1st Ammendment. It would also

be good that if folks from the so called "Western World" try

to comprehend just how much Islam effects those who are

born into said religion. It would be nice if Muslims try and under-

stand the West but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon

either....Perhaps the old Randy Newman song " Political

Science" fits in here at this moment in the worlds history......

Link to the song....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGO42gvCSPI

Just watched "Fog of War" interview with McNamara, rule #1 empathise with your enemy. Right now definitely not happening on either side of the debate as anyone attempting to do is called an appeaser. Obama is trying, but being shouted down by the right of politics.

I just reviewed Lesson #1: Empathize with your enemy of the 'The Fog of War'. It was explained by McNamara by means of a review of the Cuban missile crisis and the need to reply either to a 'soft' message or a 'hard-line message' sent by the Kremlin to end the crisis. The decision was made to reply to the 'soft' message in order to give Khrushchev a rationale he could tell the Russian people to justify their leaving Cuba. Khrushchev could explain leaving Cuba by claiming that it prevented invasion and destruction by the USA.

As McNamara said in the 'The Fog of War' explaining Lesson #1 (transcribed by me from the soundtrack):

That's what I call empathy. We must try to put ourselves inside their skin and look at us through their eyes to understand the thoughts that lie behind their decisions and their actions. Khrushchev's advisors were saying 'there could be no deal unless you somewhat reduce the pressure on us when you ask us to reduce the pressure on you.'

I think that this is not exactly the kind of 'empathy' that most of us had in mind from your post. Wouldn't it be more fitting under the heading of "know your enemy?"

It appears as though this logic would more aptly apply to the Iranian nuclear effort. Would they back down from obtaining nuclear weapon capability? Can we 'empathize' with them on this issue, and give them an out? Is there really any way to reason with Islamic fanatics and isn't the 'The Fog of War' really not that analogous here since it's not Khrushchev, the Kremlin and the Russian people we're dealing with?

Incidentally, 'The Fog of War' has a downright eerie and hypnotizing soundtrack by Philip Glass and worth watching for the music alone, IMHO. McNamara is just ... well ... eerie. Anyway, it's history, so who cares?

I think you have missed the point and relevance to the current conflict in the ME. Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another as you highlighted with your example in negotiating with Khrushchev.

EDIT: Regard to Iran the President and his supporters are nutcases. The Iranian people attempted to replace the regime in their Arab Spring, but were brutally oppressed. BTW you do know that China, Russia, Pakistan & North Korea supply the technology to develop nuclear capability. Looks like the West has an endless supply of enemies

The "western" countries didn't do much to endear the people of China and Pakistan to them during the colonial era, plus many more that you don't mention like Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Yemen and a whole bunch more that are, surprise surprise, demonstrating against and attacking US interests. I wonder how long it is before it becomes a crusade against all ex colonial powers?

Soutpeel · September 22, 2012

The "western" countries didn't do much to endear the people of China and Pakistan to them during the colonial era,

Er...dont think there was a Pakistan during the colonial era, and would assume if China has a real beef with another country...it woud be Japan...

Rajab Al Zarahni · September 22, 2012

This is the recently expressed view of a responsible Muslim that I strongly agree with:

"It is this history of Christian Protestant bravery that led to the creation of pluralist and secular societies in the West, allowing for the first time in history for Muslims and Jews to settle there in large numbers - we were free to practise our religions freely. The barbarity of pogroms, witch-hunting, and burning heretics ended.

My fellow Muslims must understand this background. We cannot trample on the very freedoms that allow us to thrive as Muslims. Yes, it hurts when the Prophet is insulted. From Shakespeare to Thomas Paine, Western literature is full of negative references to Muslims as Moors, Turks, and followers of Mahomet.

Similarly, classical Arabic and Persian writings are replete with anti-Semitism and denial of Christ's divinity as the son of God. Yet, it is a remarkable feat that we in the West have accommodated all faiths and no faith.

This achievement cannot be reversed. Self-censorship is to reverse the gains made by our intellectual forefathers.

Just as Muslims are free in the West, Christians and other dissenters must be free in the East.

We Muslims killed some of our best luminaries because of clerical accusations of heresy, absence of freedom of thought.

From executing al-Hallaj in Baghdad to stoning Ibn Arabi in Damascus to banishing Bulleh Shah in the Punjab, the history is bitter.

They were Muslim martyrs to freedom of thought. As a Westerner and Muslim, I want to cherish these freedoms and secure liberty for future generations.

Ed Husain

simple1 · September 22, 2012

@thaibeachlovers: seems to me that a lot of people overlook that nearly all Arab/Islamic states have been colonised/occupied or experienced interference in their internal affairs by western countries during the last 100 years or so. My personal opinion is that the Islamic countries are to busy sorting out their internal problems to take any action against Western interests, excepting extremist terrorist groups.

Romney recently stated his view that Russia is the major strategic threat to US national security.

Soutpeel · September 22, 2012

This is the recently expressed view of a responsible Muslim that I strongly agree with:

"It is this history of Christian Protestant bravery that led to the creation of pluralist and secular societies in the West, allowing for the first time in history for Muslims and Jews to settle there in large numbers - we were free to practise our religions freely. The barbarity of pogroms, witch-hunting, and burning heretics ended.

My fellow Muslims must understand this background. We cannot trample on the very freedoms that allow us to thrive as Muslims. Yes, it hurts when the Prophet is insulted. From Shakespeare to Thomas Paine, Western literature is full of negative references to Muslims as Moors, Turks, and followers of Mahomet.

Similarly, classical Arabic and Persian writings are replete with anti-Semitism and denial of Christ's divinity as the son of God. Yet, it is a remarkable feat that we in the West have accommodated all faiths and no faith.

This achievement cannot be reversed. Self-censorship is to reverse the gains made by our intellectual forefathers.

Just as Muslims are free in the West, Christians and other dissenters must be free in the East.

We Muslims killed some of our best luminaries because of clerical accusations of heresy, absence of freedom of thought.

From executing al-Hallaj in Baghdad to stoning Ibn Arabi in Damascus to banishing Bulleh Shah in the Punjab, the history is bitter.

They were Muslim martyrs to freedom of thought. As a Westerner and Muslim, I want to cherish these freedoms and secure liberty for future generations.

Ed Husain

Do you want to provide a magnifiying glass with this ?

Rajab Al Zarahni · September 22, 2012