Visa-Rates For Atm Users

[puck2]

Most people look at the banks' currency rates when they would like to draw some money out of the Thai ATM., especially they look at T/T (=telex-transfer) of the bank buying rates. Picking the T/T-rate surely is not a mistake. This an indicator of the aproximate rate for the debiting in your bank account.

The T/T rates change sometimes frequently during the banks working hours. There can be differences from one local Thai bank to the next on the same day. But the VISA-exchange rates for cardholders will be exactly the same throughout the day. At the ATM of BBL you will get the same rate as at the ATM of SCB or KBANK, on the same day. It's independent of the day-time, in the morning (Thai time) it's the same rate as in the afternoon or evening.

But there can be a rate diffence concerning the location of the card issuing bank.

-- If you have a card from a US bank then this rates are applied

- If you have a card from a European bank (GB included !) then press the yellow marked "here" in the same window. Please note, I made a screenshot, you should open the website (URL - look at the top of my screenshot).

The location of the bank issuing your card determines

1. Visa's exchange rate. There can be differences between US - and Europe-rates

2. the time when the new daily rates are shown on Visa's website; for the USD not before 11 a.m. in summertime here in Thailand and for the European countries not before 5 or 6 a.m. (This depends on the time diffence between your bank issuing country in Europe and New Xork Time; I don't know this exactly, but I guess it; I'm to laisy to stand up in the early morning only for checking this).

All VISA-exchange rates have one (important) thing in common: they are fixed prior to the trading day. This is very usefull if you arn't in a hurry. You watch the tendency of the exchange rate.

- When the T/T-exchange rates of the local banks have an upwards trend for your currency supported by good economical news and the VISA rate is lower than the T/T rate - waite for the coming day(s). For exampel, the rating agencies lift the standard of the EURO or the USD.

- When the T/T-exchange rates have a downward trend of your currency because of negative economical news - go today to the ATM. Yesterday I went to the ATM, because I could expect a downward trend of the €, shown in the yesterday T/T tables of the Thai banks.

This should be some support for members not so experienced with the ATM exchange rates for VISA cardholders. Exchange rates for MASTER and other cards are different. The rates are fixed after the bank trading hours, the most important point.

All my comments don't consider bank fees, both Thai and foreign. I'm sorry for our Australian members, I don't know if their rates differ from the US rates and when the AUD-rates are shown on the VISA website.

[puck2]

Examples for today - before 11 am ->

The USD is now: 0,032519; --> 1 USD = 30,75125 THB

[puck2]

An update

- today in comparison with the T/T-exchange rates from SCB

Concerning Australian members:

- I don't know where I can get the reliable rates from for the AUD. The rates in my table above are from Visa Corp. and are connected to US bank card holders , therefore not reliable by 100% ????

[Swiss1960]

You put a lot of effort in that thread... and in general it is useful to find the approximate exchange rates that you might face... but fact is that your information is not correct...

Fact is that the exchange rate used to charge the cardholder is set by the card issuing bank (your home bank) and they are completely free to use whatever exchange rate they want. They can use the Visa / MC / Amex etc. exchange rates, but they can choose their own rates.

Example Switzerland: Big banks use the same exchange rate for all card brands, so if you do transactions (cash advance or retail) with Visa and MC on the same day, the same exchange rate will be used for all transactions, no matter whether their are differences between Visa and MC. It's the banks risk to choose the right exchange rate in order not to loose money when doing the reconciliation with Visa / MC.

Most big banks in Switzerland offer their customer better rates for USD and EURO than VISA and MC offer to them (as they are trading heavily in these currencies in the money market) and still gain money, but the add pretty heavy foreign exchange percentages to the transactions.

That is fact. The information you gave might be true for some banks, but not for all and if you REALLY need to know the exact exchange rates that you will be charged, you need to talk with your issuing bank and most banks will publish the exchange rates (and the various fees) on their websites.

[puck2]

....................

Fact is that the exchange rate used to charge the cardholder is set by the card issuing bank (your home bank) and they are completely free to use whatever exchange rate they want. They can use the Visa / MC / Amex etc. exchange rates, but they can choose their own rates.

Example Switzerland: Big banks use the same exchange rate for all card brands, so if you do transactions (cash advance or retail) with Visa and MC on the same day, the same exchange rate will be used for all transactions, no matter whether their are differences between Visa and MC. It's the banks risk to choose the right exchange rate in order not to loose money when doing the reconciliation with Visa / MC.

...................

Subject of this toppic is: VISA-rates and ATM

If all the big Swiss banks give you the same exchange rate, why ??? This would be a monopoly and not usual for competing banks.

The reason for applying the same rate for the card withdrawels is their (contract-) connection with VISA (or MC) !!! Read the contract of your card issuing bank. It's up to the banks to add or change some fees or details. But the currency rate is fixed by VISA/MC. The VISA-card clauses of my bank say: the exchange rate is fixed by VISA. And your contract?

If I'm not right, please give me the relevant (not private) details of your card withdrawels.

BTW, for my last ATM withdrawel here in Thailand my account was exactly debited by an amount with the before mentioned rate, .... and always the same before.

[Swiss1960]

....................

Fact is that the exchange rate used to charge the cardholder is set by the card issuing bank (your home bank) and they are completely free to use whatever exchange rate they want. They can use the Visa / MC / Amex etc. exchange rates, but they can choose their own rates.

Example Switzerland: Big banks use the same exchange rate for all card brands, so if you do transactions (cash advance or retail) with Visa and MC on the same day, the same exchange rate will be used for all transactions, no matter whether their are differences between Visa and MC. It's the banks risk to choose the right exchange rate in order not to loose money when doing the reconciliation with Visa / MC.

...................

Subject of this toppic is: VISA-rates and ATM

If all the big Swiss banks give you the same exchange rate, why ??? This would be a monopoly and not usual for competing banks.

The reason for applying the same rate for the card withdrawels is their (contract-) connection with VISA (or MC) !!! Read the contract of your card issuing bank. It's up to the banks to add or change some fees or details. But the currency rate is fixed by VISA/MC. The VISA-card clauses of my bank say: the exchange rate is fixed by VISA. And your contract?

If I'm not right, please give me the relevant (not private) details of your card withdrawels.

BTW, for my last ATM withdrawel here in Thailand my account was exactly debited by an amount with the before mentioned rate, .... and always the same before.

I am sorry, Sir, but you are completely wrong about that! I am working for a credit card Issuer and I know all the contracts and all the details of card transactions and payments in all details. UBS as one example of the big Swiss banks tells their customers, that they use the standard UBS foreign exchange rate for credit cards (and use the same rate for VISA and MC) and those are published daily on their website - and they DO deviate from the VISA and MC rates (wich themselves are different).

To clarify: I was unclear with my statement about big banks using the same rate... I meant that within each of the banks, they use the same rate for all their card products independent of the brand of card. Of course the rates differ from bank to bank as do the fees.

So the rate I get from UBS for a VISA card cash advance at what ever ATM worldwide is set by UBS and can (and mostly will) deviate from the T/T rate that VISA Europe Inc. will use to charge UBS for the cash advance.

[jpinx]

It's all very clear on visa.com. Choose the country your card was issued in and look for the details. Watch out for the little notes about banks making their own charges, etc.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just to reinforce what's been said above, when someone is using a regular VISA logo debit card at most any of the Thai bank ATMs, the EXCHANGE RATE you'll get will be set by VISA as the handler of an international currency transaction -- not by either the Thai bank or your home country bank.

Now, apart from the EXCHANGE RATE, there may be FEES assessed by either the Thai bank or your home country bank for a foreign card/currency transaction. For example, all the Thai commercial banks currently charge a flat 150 baht fee for non-Thai bank ATM card withdrawals, regardless of the amount withdrawn. And many U.S. banks, for example, charge a 1 to 3% foreign currency fee on any transactions (ATM or POS) done outside the U.S.

So, the best thing to do is use a home country credit or debit card that has no foreign currency fee. Examples in the U.S. include debit cards from Charles Schwab Bank and State Farm Bank, and credit cards from Capital One Bank and Pentagon Federal Credit Union.

And then on the Thai end, if possible, use AEON ATMs that are often located in Tesco and Big C shopping malls, which accept all VISA and MC logo cards but DO NOT charge the 150 baht withdrawal fee, because AEON is not a Thai bank even though it operates regular ATMs.

For that very reason, I try to avoid using Thai bank ATMs entirely for cash withdrawals with my U.S. bank cards, because I don't want to pay their 150 baht fee every time. But if I did ever have to use them with my non-Thai VISA or MC debit card, at least I wouldn't have to worry about which has the better exchange rate, because all their ATM rates for those transactions will be set by VISA or MC.

Just for the record, though, it is entirely different if you're doing a cash withdrawal with a foreign card INSIDE a Thai bank at the counter or at one of their currency exchange booths. For those kinds of transactions, the local bank is setting their own local exchange rates and, as stated, it will often change several times during the day and can vary considerably from bank to bank.

[Swiss1960]

It's all very clear on visa.com. Choose the country your card was issued in and look for the details. Watch out for the little notes about banks making their own charges, etc.

Yes... and that's exactly where you will find the small notes that say that the issuing banks may use the Visa rates or may not... and as I clearly outlined, there are banks - i..e UBS in Switzerland - that use their own foreign exchange sells exchange rates instead of the Visa or MC rates.

[Swiss1960]

Just to reinforce what's been said above, when someone is using a regular VISA logo debit card at most any of the Thai bank ATMs, the EXCHANGE RATE you'll get will be set by VISA as the handler of an international currency transaction -- not by either the Thai bank or your home country bank.

WRONG! Visa sets the rate to handle the international settlement of the transaction (including exchange rates) between the Acquiring bank (who is setting up the ATM) and the Issuing Bank (who sells the credit or debitr cards to the cardholders).

VISA (as well as MasterCard) do NOT interfere with what ever exchange rate (and additional fees) the Issuing bank will use towards the cardholder. That is called the free market... ONLY your Issuing bank decides and can tell you what rates they use! These can be but must not be the VISA / MC rates.

Sorry, guys... I am in that business for years...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I can't speak for whatever occurs with Swiss banks, but I definitely know the U.S. banks setup...

VISA and MC do the exchange rates... and the banks either do or don't add on fees.... like the foreign currency fee.

In the end, adding fees of course reduces a person's NET exchange rate in terms of funds received.

But when I make an ATM withdrawal in Thailand using an VISA card from some local bank in Texas or Michigan, it's NOT my local bank figuring out what exchange rate they want to give for the Thai baht that day...

In years of living here, many times over, I've done back to back ATM withdrawals (within one minute of each other) at the same ATM using different VISA cards from entirely different U.S. banks. And EVERY time, no matter what different pairs of cards I use (and I only use NO FEE cards), the net resulting exchange rates are identical.

If all my various home country banks were setting their own exchange rates, then I'd be getting different results for those back to back ATM withdrawals. But because VISA or MC is the one setting the exchange rates, the resulting withdrawal and rates come out identical every time.

Edited September 20, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Swiss1960]

I can't speak for whatever occurs with Swiss banks, but I definitely know the U.S. banks setup...

VISA and MC do the exchange rates... and the banks either do or don't add on fees.... like the foreign currency fee.

In the end, adding fees of course reduces a person's NET exchange rate in terms of funds received.

But when I make an ATM withdrawal in Thailand using an VISA card from some local bank in Texas or Michigan, it's NOT my local bank figuring out what exchange rate they want to give for the Thai baht that day...

Your local US bank might not use their own exchange rate and they might even not be allowed under some strange US consumer protection article... but from a global VISA / MC perspective they COULD do it and within Europe, many banks use their own rates.

Fees are just on top of it.. and you are correct that those fees make the difference (i.e. UBS adding 1.75% handling fee on foreign exchange transactions), not the few tens of a cent that the exchange rate might differ.

[jpinx]

Here's a handy page for interbank rates which gives you a basis for comparison..

http://www.xe.com/?c=THB&r=6

[JimGant]

ONLY your Issuing bank decides and can tell you what rates they use! These can be but must not be the VISA / MC rates.

Swiss, you're right for Switzerland (and maybe other European countries), but John is right for US banks.

The recently settled currency conversion class action suit against Visa and MC, and their issuing banks, is the reason. Yes, US banks could -- and did -- before this lawsuit use an exchange rate different from that provided by Visa or MC. The result, of course, was a 'spread' that provided the equivalent of a fee (nicely hidden) of 1 or 2 (or more!) percent. Today, all issuing bank fees, including 'implicit' fees due to rate spreads, have to be divulged by the issuing bank to the cardholder. Banks, however, find it simpler just to use -- and show -- the flat fees being imposed, without the bother of imposing, and divulging, the equivalent 'fee' from a spread.

From the Visa website:

The Visa rate is selected from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets or the government-mandated rate in effect one day prior to the applicable central processing date. Visa makes this rate available to issuing banks, which may adjust the rate in billing cardholders. The rate Visa makes available to issuing banks may vary from the rate Visa itself receives.

The last sentence is the one I find the most interesting, because, indeed, the published Visa rate for the day (per the website puck2 provided) has been, on average, 8 satang less than the Interbank Exchange Rate (IER). And the IER is certainly the rate achieved by both Visa and MC, what with their enormous volumes and clout. Thus, presumably, the issuing bank settles up with Visa at the published rate -- and Visa settles up with the acquiring banks at the IER. And pockets the "spread." Unless there's a secret handshake (?) with the issuing bank, that shares this spread -- at the expense of the cardholder, of course. But, this seems doubtful after the class action lawsuit, I would think -- at least in the US.

So, Swiss 1960 -- if a Swiss bank offers a better exchange rate to the cardholder than the rates provided by Visa and MC -- but has to settle up with Visa and MC at their provided rates -- presumably this is some kind of marketing 'loss leader,' made whole by hefty fees? What am I missing?

Also, on the Visa Europe site, where daily Visa rates are provided, there is this quote:

Your issuer may also refer you to this site as part of their compliance with the Payment Services Directive.

What is the Payment Services Directive? Something like the full disclosure of rates (and rate differences) now required in the US?

[Swiss1960]

ONLY your Issuing bank decides and can tell you what rates they use! These can be but must not be the VISA / MC rates

Swiss, you're right for Switzerland (and maybe other European countries), but John is right for US banks.

Thanks for that update, I thought it might have to do with the consumer protection in the US

So, Swiss 1960 -- if a Swiss bank offers a better exchange rate to the cardholder than the rates provided by Visa and MC -- but has to settle up with Visa and MC at their provided rates -- presumably this is some kind of marketing 'loss leader,' made whole by hefty fees? What am I missing?

Not really sure they are loosing money... a bank like UBS has such huge tradings in Euro or US$ (or GB£ as the third main currency with regards to credit card transactions), that they probably can offer better rates out of their overall trading and set their used daily rate below VISA but still make gains. And yes, the 0.9 to 2.5% foreign exchange fee that are charged by the different Swiss Issuers make up for any possible loss.

Also, on the Visa Europe site, where daily Visa rates are provided, there is this quote:

Your issuer may also refer you to this site as part of their compliance with the Payment Services Directive.

What is the Payment Services Directive? Something like the full disclosure of rates (and rate differences) now required in the US?

European Union Directive to provide a legal foundation for the SEPA (Single European Payments Area). Contains rules to make market entry easier for new competitors (at least that's what the EU commission thinks...) and regulates - just one example - that their may be no cross-border fees within EU / EURO countries. Also regulates HOW the transaction must be presented on the statement to the customer, outlining in detail rate used, where the rate came from and all the fees added on top.

As Switzerland is neither EU nor SEPA, we don't have to follow all that stuff.

[JimGant]

As Switzerland is neither EU nor SEPA, we don't have to follow all that stuff.

You guys do seem to have a way with sidestepping annoying involvements and problems:

No EU entanglement

No EURO involvement

No NATO involvement

Prettiest patch of land in Europe

Able to restrict mosque construction -- without crazies materializing

But, I guess if the Vatican gets invaded, you'll have to whip out your flamberges.

[Swiss1960]

As Switzerland is neither EU nor SEPA, we don't have to follow all that stuff.

You guys do seem to have a way with sidestepping annoying involvements and problems:

No EU entanglement

No EURO involvement

No NATO involvement

Prettiest patch of land in Europe

Able to restrict mosque construction -- without crazies materializing

But, I guess if the Vatican gets invaded, you'll have to whip out your flamberges.

Not if they transfer the money from the Vatican bank to Switzerland on time...

[JimGant]

But the VISA-exchange rates for cardholders will be exactly the same throughout the day. At the ATM of BBL you will get the same rate as at the ATM of SCB or KBANK, on the same day. It's independent of the day-time, in the morning (Thai time) it's the same rate as in the afternoon or evening.

Puck, I believe if you went to an ATM machine prior to 1101am (0001am New York time -- we're talking US issued cards), you would get the previous day's exchange rate, since the new rate is not yet in effect. So for today, 21 Sept, an early morning ATM hit would get you the Visa rate for 20 Sept, which was 30.71. Waiting until after 1100 would get you today's rate of 30.78

ATM pulls are near real time, unlike credit card transactions. So, if using your Visa credit card after 1100am today -- it will be 24 hours or so before the transaction finalizes; thus, you'll realize the next day's Visa rate. At least this has been my experience, with all shopping done between noon and 2:00pm (so I can buy booze ).

Here are some interesting numbers from both Visa and MC websites:

17 Sep: Visa: 30.751 MC: 30.554

18 Sep: Visa: 30.731 MC: 30.637

19 Sep: Visa: 30.751 MC: 30.586

Now, this is not two same-time snapshots, as MC does their FX math 12 hours after Visa. However, if you run the numbers for several months, smoothing out the FX bumps, you'll find that Visa beats MC by an average of 16 satang (with the baht in the 30-31 to the US dollar range).

Certainly no great shakes in money savings -- a MC without any fees would still beat a Visa card *with* fees. However, in a feeless race, it's interesting to see that MC makes a little more in the FX game than does Visa... at your expense.

Anyway, before I cut-up my MC ATM and credit cards, I did a same time-frame comparison with my Visa ATM and credit cards. The actual results I got were right on the money with the published website rates. I guess no real surprise, since blowing smoke probably not too wise after the class action suit. And, as advertised, the noon Visa ATM pull gets that day's published rate -- while a MC ATM pull at noon (and for the next 11 hours) gets the previous day's published rate.

And the average buying TT rate? That falls about in the middle of that 16 satang differential between Visa and MC.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the good info and comparisons, Jim.

[JimGant]

Just for the record, though, it is entirely different if you're doing a cash withdrawal with a foreign card INSIDE a Thai bank at the counter or at one of their currency exchange booths. For those kinds of transactions, the local bank is setting their own local exchange rates and, as stated, it will often change several times during the day and can vary considerably from bank to bank.

John, if you walk into a bank that allows you to swipe your foreign ATM/Debit card at the counter, that transaction will also use the published Visa or MC rates (we both understand the DCC option, but let's exclude that in this example -- as well as the Swiss option for issuing banks establishing exchange rates).

So, while I've never done a counter withdrawal in Thailand, it sounds like it's handled just as in the States, where you swipe your ATM card at the machine now found at every teller's position, and enter your PIN. Voila, it's treated the same as an ATM transaction accomplished in the machine outside the door -- but without the 150 baht surcharge programmed in. And, like the ATM operation outside the door, the transaction runs on the MC/Cirrus or Visa/Plus networks. The ATM cardholder gets the published rate of the day. And in both outside and inside transactions, the bank (assuming he owns the ATM machine) will get a "reverse interchange" fee for his troubles (40 cents or so, paid by the issuing bank to the Thai acquiring bank).

Obviously, the swipe machine at the bank's counter is not programmed as the one at Big C, i.e., in the Point of Sale mode -- since the bank is not selling something with a profit margin that would allow cost coverage for the 2% or so "swipe" (interchange) fee. Now, while the bank's counter machine is programmed in the "ATM" mode, not "POS" mode, whether or not you could use a "swipe and sign" (vs. PIN) mode -- I don't know. Not sure why not...

And, that the bank loses 150 baht for doing counter ATM operations is why we see examples here of being shown to the ATM machine when trying to do a counter operation. Also, kinda puts a value on their desire for your patronage....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Jim, I'm not a counter withdrawal type, because of the hassle of having to carry around one's passport bearing one's visa and such stamps, and the other attendant hassles.

But from what I've gathered from those posting here on doing such things, there seem to be two different kind of methods used by Thai banks when it comes to counter withdrawals: one is the swipe and sign method, similar to a POS transaction, as you mention above, and then members here have reported on a different method that seems to be based on filling out paper forms that the bank then processes, which also seems to be slower in its timeliness of processing.

I can't say I have any good idea for, these days, what portion of counter withdrawals are handled one way vs. the other. It may be that the paper forms method was the old method and the swipe machine method is the new method, and not all the branches/banks have caught up with it or... Or perhaps, they have a choice at the teller or branch level how to process those.

Since neither you nor I have ever done a counter withdrawal here in Thailand, it would be interesting to know first-hand what exchange rate methods are used in each case, and are they the same or different.

I will note, meanwhile, that among the U.S. banks that I follow, I've also seen an increasing trend lately to not only have the longstanding foreign currency or exchange fees that we all know and love, but now also seeing much more often "counter withdrawal" fees where the customer is charged extra for any "counter withdrawal" from a bank other than the one that issued their card, including foreign ones.

Perhaps the U.S. banks already caught on to customers disdain for getting charged an extra $2-$5 every time they want to withdraw their money from some other bank's ATM, and decided they needed to even the playing field by adding counter withdrawal charges as well.

[Swiss1960]

Obviously, the swipe machine at the bank's counter is not programmed as the one at Big C, i.e., in the Point of Sale mode -- since the bank is not selling something with a profit margin that would allow cost coverage for the 2% or so "swipe" (interchange) fee. Now, while the bank's counter machine is programmed in the "ATM" mode, not "POS" mode, whether or not you could use a "swipe and sign" (vs. PIN) mode -- I don't know. Not sure why not...

POS and ATM modes are different specifications and normally, you can't just "swap" from one mode to the other. It also requires different processing contracts whether you are a sales business or an ATM provider. If you want to do both, you need both contracts (but I am aware that some shops provide cash advance and process them as normal transactions, but this is really illegal from a VISA / MC point of view).

Interchange for normal sales flows from the acquiring (POS) bank to the issuing bank (guarantee for the payment) and interchange for cash advance flows from the Issuing bank to the acquiring (ATM) bank (for maintaing maschines with cash). Both interchanges are percenctages of the amount due.

Whether or not the terminal in a bank works in swipe mode, chip mode, signature mode or PIN mode depends on

a ) is the terminal able to go online and check the PIN ?

b ) is the terminal able to compare the PIN against the values on the Chip ("EMV" terminals)?

c ) does the card allow cash advance without PIN at all ?

d ) does the bank terminal allow a cash transaction with signature?

Basis is that both terminal (POS as well as ATM) and card have a so called CVM (Card Verification Method) printed on them, which contains all possible authorisation methods allowed. terminal and card will then negotiate with each other, which verification method to use

For cash advance, European cards mostly (95%) have the rule "Online PIN Verification" as the only accepted option for cash advance. Most European banks (60%) will NOT allow cash advance transactions with signature anymore and will decline them. Some European banks (30%) today even decline any cash transaction based on magstripe, as these are seen too dangerous (we call them "fallback" transactions, if the ATM is not able to read / deal with the chip).

That all said, depending on the technical specification of the terminal inside the bank and depending on what the card will accept for verification, you might or might not be able to do cash advance with signature in a bank... but since the banks in Thailand want to do business (and charge fees), they sometimes offer paper based cash withdrawl... they will then input the card number and amount and other values in their back office system and the transaction will arrive at the issuing bank as a so-called MOTO (Mail-Order / Telephone-Order) transaction... with is highly risky again and can be disputed by the cardholder most of the times and then the Thai bank will need to send all the paperwork with the signatures and probably copies of the ID to the Issuing bank to prove that the transaction was made by the genuine cardholder.

[Swiss1960]

sorry, duplicate...

Edited September 21, 2012 by Swiss1960

[JimGant]

they will then input the card number and amount and other values in their back office system and the transaction will arrive at the issuing bank as a so-called MOTO (Mail-Order / Telephone-Order) transaction... with is highly risky again and can be disputed by the cardholder most of the times and then the Thai bank will need to send all the paperwork with the signatures and probably copies of the ID to the Issuing bank to prove that the transaction was made by the genuine cardholder.

No wonder why they point to the outside ATM machine as you lumber towards the counter with passport and ATM card in hand.

POS and ATM modes are different specifications and normally, you can't just "swap" from one mode to the other. It also requires different processing contracts whether you are a sales business or an ATM provider.

I guess, then, banks are completely happy to have their swipe machines hardwired to the ATM position, seeing that POS would be of little use to them (the toasters you guys hand out are still gifts, and not sales, right? ).

Nice to have insider insight, Swiss. Thanks.

[Pib]

Lot of good info in this thread. For me, I use two different U.S. Visa debit cards to withdraw money at ATMs...I always use AEON ATMs here in Thailand....a Schwab Bank and State Farm Bank Visa debit card....both are "no foreign transaction fee" cards...the exchange rate provided is the Visa rate. A few days ago I used one card right after the other in the same ATM to withdraw the money....later that night I check the charge that had hit my accounts....it was the exact same charge to the penny and matched the Visa exchange rate....the rate always matches the Visa exchange rate. I've got a few other U.S bank issued Visa/Mastercard debit cards which do apply a foreign transaction fee of 0.5% to 3% (I never use them...they live in my safe), but they also use the Visa/Mastercard rate minus the applicable foreign transaction fee.

[puck2]

But the VISA-exchange rates for cardholders will be exactly the same throughout the day. At the ATM of BBL you will get the same rate as at the ATM of SCB or KBANK, on the same day. It's independent of the day-time, in the morning (Thai time) it's the same rate as in the afternoon or evening.

Puck, I believe if you went to an ATM machine prior to 1101am (0001am New York time -- we're talking US issued cards), you would get the previous day's exchange rate, since the new rate is not yet in effect. So for today, 21 Sept, an early morning ATM hit would get you the Visa rate for 20 Sept, which was 30.71. Waiting until after 1100 would get you today's rate of 30.78

ATM pulls are near real time, unlike credit card transactions. So, if using your Visa credit card after 1100am today -- it will be 24 hours or so before the transaction finalizes; thus, you'll realize the next day's Visa rate. At least this has been my experience, with all shopping done between noon and 2:00pm (so I can buy booze ).

...........

Certainly no great shakes in money savings -- .........

Jim, you are right. At this time - 11 a.m. here in T. (= New York after midnight) - the rates are changed, too. When NY changes from summertime to normal time (I believe in October?) it will be at 12 a.m. ; crazy, VISa's place of business is in California.

Surly, no great money savings in general. But there are exceptions. Last year, one day after the election (=4.July) the THB won against the Euro, visible by the TT rates. Reason: no fears of a putsch. But the VISA-rate was still higher, fixed on Saturday morning, valid until Tuesday (5.7.) at about 5 (or 6) a.m. Thai-time. This was a reason to go on Monday (or Tuesday until 5 a.m.) to the ATM.

The rate difference for the Euro between 19. and 20.September 2012 (--> #3) was 0,3 THB. Imagine, I had to change 5.000 €. The saving was then ~1.500 THB. One condition, like mentioned: the money transfer to your bank account should be nearly in real time.

Edited September 21, 2012 by puck2

[Swiss1960]

One condition, like mentioned: the money transfer to your bank account should be nearly in real time.

The concept of "real time" is not of interest for the exchange rate, as your transaction has day and time stamp that will be used for fixing the exchange rate to be used and that is independant of whether it is a POS or ATM transaction.

First step in a transaction is the authorization request from the acquirer to the issuer about the expected amount to be charged. That is done in a real time mode where the acquirer sends out the transaction and waits for the answer. Depending on the answer he will honour the transaction or not. When the issuer has authorized the transaction, he will normally make a reservation for that amount against your card account / bank account and will then be waiting for the clearing record to arrive some days later. The authorisation shall ensure that you can not overdraw your account and is specially important in the area of car rentals and hotel reservations.

The second step is the acquirer sending out the clearing transactions later, either later in the same day (he can do it once in the evening or many times, depending on his bookkeeping system) or even days later - he has up to 30 days to do the clearing (some smaller merchants collect transactions and only send them once a week, as the acquirer charges them a fixed fee for the submission of the clearing records independent on the number of transactions).

The third step is VISA / MC doing the settlement between Issuer and Acquirer (both having accounts set up with VSIA / MC for that specific purpose. That is the time VISA / MC will put in the "correct" exchange rate based on the transaction date and time. In a POS environment, the acquiring bank will now - after he received the money from VISA / MC - credit his merchant with the money.

Finally we have the clearing from the Issuer bank to the cardholder account. Issuing bank will now charge you with the final amount and will at the same time delete the outstanding authorisations from your account. The amount charged to you can vary from the amount that was "reserved" during authorization, again mostly in car rental or hotel transactions.

Even if you have a payment slip from returning your car / checking out of the hotel, that amount is not final and can change over time. Why? There can be charges for extra milage or filling up bas that have not be booked when returning the car or their could be extra charges from minibar / missing items in your hotel room. Unfortunately, this happens very often and our call center receives loads of complaints about these extra charges... that is also why nowadays, lot of hotels will let you wait during checkout and ask housekeeping to check your room before they do the checkout transaction.

[puck2]

One condition, like mentioned: the money transfer to your bank account should be nearly in real time.

The concept of "real time" is not of interest for the exchange rate, as your transaction has day and time stamp that will be used for fixing the exchange rate to be used and that is independant of whether it is a POS or ATM transaction.

...................

Maybe once you'll understand that we don't have VISA cards issued in Switzerland. Our cards are connected to card issuing banks applying the official VISA exchange rate!!! The money transfer is booked within seconds. When I return from the village ATM with my Visa-debitcard, then I can already compare the official VISA rate with the booked rate on my card account. Exactly the same ( 1 or 2 cents - no diffence)!

This "may" show you that real time (NY) is important for the time of the ATM withdrawel.

[Swiss1960]

One condition, like mentioned: the money transfer to your bank account should be nearly in real time.

The concept of "real time" is not of interest for the exchange rate, as your transaction has day and time stamp that will be used for fixing the exchange rate to be used and that is independant of whether it is a POS or ATM transaction.

...................

Maybe once you'll understand that we don't have VISA cards issued in Switzerland. Our cards are connected to card issuing banks applying the official VISA exchange rate!!! The money transfer is booked within seconds. When I return from the village ATM with my Visa-debitcard, then I can already compare the official VISA rate with the booked rate on my card account. Exactly the same ( 1 or 2 cents - no diffence)!

This "may" show you that real time (NY) is important for the time of the ATM withdrawel.

What you write about immediately seeing your transaction on your card account (real time authorization) and what I write about transactions that must NOT be real time does not contradict each other.

While ATM transactions are mostly online / realtime (99.999%), we see more and more offline POS transactions, specially for small amount transactions where the Chip on the card decides whether he will accept such a transaction without online approval. You will NOT see this transaction on your bank account until days later. Most such offline transactions occur with VISA paywave or MasterCard paypass transactions (contactless products).

This transaction will have the purchase date and time stamp attached and this date and time will be used to distinguish the exchange rate to be used (can be VISA / MC, T&T, bank specific depending on your country law / issuer procedures), but it still is an offline (not even near real time) transaction...

[Pib]

One condition, like mentioned: the money transfer to your bank account should be nearly in real time.

The concept of "real time" is not of interest for the exchange rate, as your transaction has day and time stamp that will be used for fixing the exchange rate to be used and that is independant of whether it is a POS or ATM transaction.

...................

Maybe once you'll understand that we don't have VISA cards issued in Switzerland. Our cards are connected to card issuing banks applying the official VISA exchange rate!!! The money transfer is booked within seconds. When I return from the village ATM with my Visa-debitcard, then I can already compare the official VISA rate with the booked rate on my card account. Exactly the same ( 1 or 2 cents - no diffence)!

This "may" show you that real time (NY) is important for the time of the ATM withdrawel.

Same in the U.S. Visa and Mastercard don't issue the cards; individual banks issue the Visa or Mastercard logo primarliy under rules/policies/fees set by that bank. I say primarily because Visa/Mastercard does have certain polices the banks must follow. The bank issued cards have either the Visa or Mastercard logo and use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rates. When I get money from the ATM its posted to my bank accounts almost immediately. My two no foreign transaction fee Visa logo debit cards issued by two different banks (Schwab and State Farm) match the Visa rate to the penny. About the fastest I've ever checked is right after I got the cards, got back home pretty quick...in less than 30 minutes...and the withdrawals were already posted on my bank account and based on the Visa exchange rate. I expect they posted to my account within seconds of the withdrawal occurring.