Biodiesel Plant

[gregj69]

I have been looking at setting up a community based biodiesel plant (1-5 t/day) but don't seem to able to get the numbers to add up right. Has anyone looked into this or are currently doing it that could advise me. Thanks for any info.

Cheers

Greg

[loong]

I've always thought it strange that I have never heard of this in Thailand.You would have thought it a possibility, especially as quite a high % of vehicles run on diesel.

Maybe diesel isn't expensive enough to make it economically viable.

I also see a lot of the large trucks are running on gas now, maybe another reason?

[aussieruss]

Hi Greg here in Australia there is a small bio plant to make diesel .they use used cooking oil .I think the unit is made in England .have a look in google PS heaps old oil around villages and markets rgds russell

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App

[jcw]

Used cooking oil will not work in Thailand. In many countries, oil is "cleaned" daily and then dumped and new used. In Thailand they just keep adding new as the level drops in the cookers. Finding used oil is next to impossible.

I wish you luck, it is meant to be great for the cars too.

[khwaibah]

Yes sir remember it will. B5, approximately 50 sating per lt cheaper than diesel. Shame PTT stopped producing it.

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdigest/2010/12/20/thailands-b5-blending-program-put-on-hold-due-to-palm-oil-shortage/

Edited September 19, 2012 by khwaibah

[Crossy]

The chap who takes away our used oil (yes it's changed regularly), puts it in his old Nissan pickup (30/70 with normal diesel I think), no treatment other than filtering. Apart from the exhaust smelling like fried fish it seems happy, wouldn't put it in my common-rail engine though.

Apparently the locals put it in the iron buffalo's too, again with little or no treatment.

OP do you have a regular source of cheap / free veggie oil (local Maccers / KFC maybe).

[IsaanAussie]

During the Thaksin regime this was a hot topic and there were pilot or community biodiesel plants setup in Chiang Mai and other places. There were also National plans to go to B10 by 2010/2011 and the vehicle manufactures were going to introduce B10 or even B20 capable diesel engines. Most petrol companies and several public companies launched plants to cater to the plans. Most plants are now idle and the diesel we use now is in fact B5.

The feed stock was to come from palm oil and that industry grew rapidly, a second vegetable source was supposed to be found in Jatropha. Soy is the source in many other countries and its price rocketed which generated a market for cheaper palm oils for cooking.

The reality is that the cost of production of biodiesel has always been higher than that of petroleum based stuff, even in the times of spikes, and the subsidy that was in place was not sustainable considering the need to import raw materials.

Equally markets for the byproducts like gylcerine did not emerge.

Sorry guys another good idea at the time that went bell-fang. I am speaking from a depth of knowledge on this having been heavily involved with the alternate fuels issues here some 12 years ago.

If like me you have a pre-common rail pickup and an older tractor, then think about running it on straight vegetable oil, conversion kits are cheap when I looked last. IMHO, as a farmer that has had a long hard look at this, the answer now is to grow peanuts or sunflowers and express the oil, either cook with it or drive using it and process the residues into animal feed meals.

IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

To the OP,

I looked into getting a mobile plant that could travel to the farms and process the fruit bunches, firstly for the raw oil and secondly for the residuals. In other words cut the logisitcs costs and increase the volumes. You can get trailer or truck mounted equipment that does exactly that. Then instead of transporting fruit bunches you would be using a fuel tanker that would otherwise being returning empty now full of oil looping past a biodiesel plant. The tankers (for the contamination critics) is usually washed out anyway as the fuel contained within each tank is different with each load.

Edited September 19, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[gregj69]

During the Thaksin regime this was a hot topic and there were pilot or community biodiesel plants setup in Chiang Mai and other places. There were also National plans to go to B10 by 2010/2011 and the vehicle manufactures were going to introduce B10 or even B20 capable diesel engines. Most petrol companies and several public companies launched plants to cater to the plans. Most plants are now idle and the diesel we use now is in fact B5.

The feed stock was to come from palm oil and that industry grew rapidly, a second vegetable source was supposed to be found in Jatropha. Soy is the source in many other countries and its price rocketed which generated a market for cheaper palm oils for cooking.

The reality is that the cost of production of biodiesel has always been higher than that of petroleum based stuff, even in the times of spikes, and the subsidy that was in place was not sustainable considering the need to import raw materials.

Equally markets for the byproducts like gylcerine did not emerge.

Sorry guys another good idea at the time that went bell-fang. I am speaking from a depth of knowledge on this having been heavily involved with the alternate fuels issues here some 12 years ago.

If like me you have a pre-common rail pickup and an older tractor, then think about running it on straight vegetable oil, conversion kits are cheap when I looked last. IMHO, as a farmer that has had a long hard look at this, the answer now is to grow peanuts or sunflowers and express the oil, either cook with it or drive using it and process the residues into animal feed meals.

IsaanAussie

The plan was to introduce increasing levels of biodiesel into the mix and have B5 by 2012 but they have backtracked the Thai long term plan because Thailands domestic production of Palm Oil was not enough even to maintain a stock for cooking oil. Incentive to change from rice or other crops to oil palm or jatropha is not there unless the farmers can get a decent price for their fruit so the only way to produce the oil or biodiesel fuels is if mineral oil prices increase dramatically. So much for the gov's alternative energy initiatives which don't seem to be viable, long or short term. Even at 6 baht a kilo it takes 5.5 - 6 kilos FFB to make one kilo CPO; that means 33 -36 baht just for the feedstock yet you can't get that much for the CPO and biodiesel sells for under 30 baht a litre. Even used cooking oil is around 25-28 bht/ltr. This doesn't include elec, water, labour, chemicals, in production costs plus the capital expenditure to set up. I know there is a very small amount to be made off the byproducts but still there is a loss. How does anyone make a profit on this? Including the major players?

Got me beat!

[Mosha]

Ranong should be great for palm. 18 months a year rainfall 555. Persuding folks to change is the problem. MIL has recently sold about 700 old rubber trees and replaced with rubber.

[jamescollister]

Bio fuel, the mention of it always makes me smile. Around 4 years ago, I was in contact with a South Kareon company, they had a secret project and wanted rubber tree seed/nuts.

E mails where going back and forth about setting up collection points etc, but never a gate price was mentioned.

Finally after months of going in circles with this hush hush project, they informed me they were ready to go and had set up a factory in BKK and a part joint venture was a possibility. How much could I supply, they wanted 20,000 tons in the first year and 40,000 in the 2nd year, the penny dropped bio diesel.

At the time we were in fact selling rubber nuts, for use as root stock, at $175 a ton. Now collecting rubber nuts is a thing done by kids and old women, for a bit of money. You get less than 200 kilos of seed drop per hector, so a lot of collecting for little return.

Wrote them and said, in order to get people to collect that volume, you would need to pay 9 or 10 Baht a kilo. !0,000 Baht a ton, plus handing and transport costs etc. So looking at around $400 US a ton.

Shock horror, they had done their numbers on $50 US a ton delivered to their factory, after all no one used the nuts really, they were free.

This was not a small want to be outfit, they just assumed that the poor down trodden masses would be happy to work for less than a Dollar a day. Jim

[thunder30101]

Getting the oil is the easy part, unless you can find the reactants- methanol and sodium or potassium hydroxide in large amounts you are not going to have any luck making your own.

[gregj69]

Getting the oil is the easy part, unless you can find the reactants- methanol and sodium or potassium hydroxide in large amounts you are not going to have any luck making your own.

Actually, getting the Methanol and NaOH or KOH is easy- just buy them but getting used cooking oil at the right price seems to be a major problem in any quantity (2-5 tons/day). Making any profit is harder. Might see how much I can get waste plastic/tyres for. Apparently can get up to 50% oil by weight.

cheers

Greg

[TommoPhysicist]

Palm fruit is currently being purchased from the farms down south at about 4.5bht/kg.

How can it not be cheaper to produce bio-diesel?

OK, I see greg has already answered me.

Edited September 19, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[gregj69]

Bio fuel, the mention of it always makes me smile. Around 4 years ago, I was in contact with a South Kareon company, they had a secret project and wanted rubber tree seed/nuts.

E mails where going back and forth about setting up collection points etc, but never a gate price was mentioned.

Finally after months of going in circles with this hush hush project, they informed me they were ready to go and had set up a factory in BKK and a part joint venture was a possibility. How much could I supply, they wanted 20,000 tons in the first year and 40,000 in the 2nd year, the penny dropped bio diesel.

At the time we were in fact selling rubber nuts, for use as root stock, at $175 a ton. Now collecting rubber nuts is a thing done by kids and old women, for a bit of money. You get less than 200 kilos of seed drop per hector, so a lot of collecting for little return.

Wrote them and said, in order to get people to collect that volume, you would need to pay 9 or 10 Baht a kilo. !0,000 Baht a ton, plus handing and transport costs etc. So looking at around $400 US a ton.

Shock horror, they had done their numbers on $50 US a ton delivered to their factory, after all no one used the nuts really, they were free.

This was not a small want to be outfit, they just assumed that the poor down trodden masses would be happy to work for less than a Dollar a day. Jim

Oh Well! The wife has already got some rubber and wants more. I was just hoping to make a few baht, boost the community, employ a few people and maybe do something good and sustainable for this country. Do you think someone would pay me to stand in the street and bash myself in the head with 2 bricks? Would be less frustrating. No. Bad idea. I would probably be done for not having a head bashing licence.

Greg

[TommoPhysicist]

The chap who takes away our used oil (yes it's changed regularly), puts it in his old Nissan pickup (30/70 with normal diesel I think), no treatment other than filtering. Apart from the exhaust smelling like fried fish it seems happy, wouldn't put it in my common-rail engine though.

Apparently the locals put it in the iron buffalo's too, again with little or no treatment.

OP do you have a regular source of cheap / free veggie oil (local Maccers / KFC maybe).

When I was in the UK and diesel was expensive, I used to put palm oil in my elderly Peugeot 205 turbo diesel, 50/50 in summer to 20/80 in winter. No problems at all (apart from breaking the law) ...... then the price of palm oil rocketed.

Edited September 19, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[gregj69]

Palm fruit is currently being purchased from the farms down south at about 4.5bht/kg.

How can it not be cheaper to produce bio-diesel?

OK, I see greg has already answered me.

At 4.5 bht/kg you could just make a little out of it if you were careful with your expenditure, I thinks.

Greg

[jamescollister]

Not sure on the costing, but coconut oil is good to pour straight in to a diesel engine, no real processing needed. As I was saying earlier in a post, you can make charcoal from the husks and oil from the meat. machinery for doing so is not that expensive and if like around here, most nuts are just left to rot on the ground. It could be viable. Jim

[Kiggs]

The biggest problem is the new engines that are being fitted to the cars/trucks. A what we call "conventional" diesel engine will run on anything you give it,as long as it will run through the fuel lines.

These new engines "Common Rail" engines are an altogether different kettle off fish! . I wouldnt put that Bio crap through anything i had unless it was the massy or an old Ford escort 1.8D

[thunder30101]

Commonrail engines run biodiesel just fine all it refers to is the fuel line running to the injectors is one piece. The only thing we dont run it in is a new ford f450 we bought last year and thats only because the fuel is pumped thru a high pressure fuel pump that is very sensitive to water. The older models used an oil pump. With a new fuel-water separator, not the crap one ford puts on it, it will be running dollar a gallon fuel. Way too many misconceptions on biodiesel out there. Its all in the quality of the fuel. Another thing if you start running even 5% bio you better get some fuel filters as biodiesel will clean your fuel system like nothing else clogging the filters.

[sezze]

Palm fruit is currently being purchased from the farms down south at about 4.5bht/kg.

How can it not be cheaper to produce bio-diesel?

OK, I see greg has already answered me.

Palm fruit is not the same like palm oil . It needs more then just crushing the fruit to get the oil . It needs steaming and a few other steps to make it to oil . For making the biodiesel you also have 2 types . 1 is pure diesel , with the oil being transformed to biodiesel and is more or less 100% the same like any other diesel in your engine . The other one is using the oil itself , which is usable but not in every engine and mostly mixed in with diesel itself .

[Mosha]

Palm fruit is currently being purchased from the farms down south at about 4.5bht/kg.

How can it not be cheaper to produce bio-diesel?

OK, I see greg has already answered me.

Seems to be up and down like a yoyo. Just been in to Ranong. I passed a depot advertising 3.80 Baht and 32 cetang/kg to pick it

Edited September 21, 2012 by Mosha

[kmike]

Greg,

I understand you want to setup a small business and so als help people when you employ them.

But as said by other posters the diesel price is not high in LOS and therefor difficult to get it successful I guess, however in Europe diesel prices are up every month and before not a lot of interest on Biodiesel but this is changing, I paid this morning 1.6 Euro for a liter that is over 60 thb.

We have a lot of small company's that start processing vegetable oils in to biodiesel, also they are in full demand on Jatropha seeds, why would you not plant Jatropha plants with your rubber trees.

This crop would work very good in LOS seeds would need only 7months before harvest the hot humid weather and rain are ideal, I have been following the different projects in Africa as Jatropha is a plant that can survive in the dessert, but in to hot climates the seeds stop growing as well so a lot op projects in Tanzania are stopped even the test fields in the UAE are abandonnent.

If you would grow them and export the seeds to Europe you would have no problem in selling them...

I could help in this PM if you need more information.

[jamescollister]

Greg,

I understand you want to setup a small business and so als help people when you employ them.

But as said by other posters the diesel price is not high in LOS and therefor difficult to get it successful I guess, however in Europe diesel prices are up every month and before not a lot of interest on Biodiesel but this is changing, I paid this morning 1.6 Euro for a liter that is over 60 thb.

We have a lot of small company's that start processing vegetable oils in to biodiesel, also they are in full demand on Jatropha seeds, why would you not plant Jatropha plants with your rubber trees.

This crop would work very good in LOS seeds would need only 7months before harvest the hot humid weather and rain are ideal, I have been following the different projects in Africa as Jatropha is a plant that can survive in the dessert, but in to hot climates the seeds stop growing as well so a lot op projects in Tanzania are stopped even the test fields in the UAE are abandonnent.

If you would grow them and export the seeds to Europe you would have no problem in selling them...

I could help in this PM if you need more information.

Think there is a thread here on Jatropha, met the guy [Aussie ] who was buying it and processing it in Thailand for export, but don't think it was for bio fuel. They were looking for contract growers at the time. Jim