Chalerm, Red-Shirts Stand Against Truth For Reconciliation Commission Of Thailand's Report

[Nickymaster]

Right, you didn't forget, you just want to sweep it under the rug.

"Perhaps because before they came to Bangkok they were already engaging in using terror as part of their toolbox? Or threatening to turn the capital into a sea of fire was a way of making people feel safe?"

Or perhaps because if you can convince the public that the "other side" are terrorists, you can more easily justify human rights abuses.

It's easy to convince people that a group is engaging in terrorism when that group has engaged in terrorism as a matter of fact. For example, threatening to blow up a gas tanker in the middle of a neighbourhood ("The red shirts opened the valves of the gas containers and prepared to set the tanker alight, Mr Tanawat said. They also parked a bus near the tanker, apparently to use it to feed the planned fire") or their "security" leader threatening with a grenade attack to the Army chief... whose office was soon after hit by a grenade attack amd who also was boasting of creating a "People's Army" to fight against the government.

"They also had a track record of using violence and deadly threats against their enemies."

Funny, so did the government of the day...

Care to show a cite on the threats from the government?

Discussing is sweeping under the rug - your logic is just stellar.

Violence by the gov't : try 2009's events. Do your recall Suthep's brainchild of the blue shirts or that the government used live rounds against the protesters then as well?

2010 did not happen in a vacuum.

Probably not but...

Stories of peaceful protestors simply looking for democracy don't sell well when their leader is Thaksin. (Thaksin can control and order them, therefore he is their leader. Simple at that Mr. tf).

Without Thaksin, the red shirt leaders, the violence, and them constantly breaking the law, I would have had sympathy and respect for their movement. Now I don't.

Neither do I have respect for people who claim the Red Shirts are victims of a trigger happy army. The red shirts are victims of a bunch of power-hungry narcissists.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Nickymaster

[gemini81]

Perhaps they should set up a new commission, the Disregarding-Everything-But-The-Truth-That-Fits-the-Redshirts Commission.

They already sort of did: it should be called: communist-mission (it would merge a graft.hungry commission hellbent on recycled pol pot communism under a different banner).

There are two tricks (but not too tricky, as they're red-shirts): play the victim to avoid the truth, and second, paint a pretty little picture with a name or slogan, like 'democracy" to those who have little knowledge of what it really is.

Edited September 21, 2012 by gemini81

[Pi Sek]

If the TV or Radio station is inciting violence and broadcasting fake video/audio, then I don't think it should be online.

I agree entirely. Informative media have the freedom to interpret facts as they see fit, but they have a responsibility not produce and disseminate lies, especially after it has been scientifically proven that the lie is a lie. (I'm specifically referring to the false Abhisit "ฆ่ามันหมด" voice clip.)

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

[nurofiend]

If they doubt the neutrality of the TRCT and want to reject the report, that's completely up to them.

My issue is the fact that they accept the parts where it says there's wrong doing on the part of Abhisit and the CRES while they dismiss the parts where it says there is also wrongdoing on the parts of the Red Shirts. You can't have it both ways.

i get what you're saying but hypothetically speaking if a report came out about something that involved you and you truly believed that not everything was true it it, you would be foolish not to say anything and just accept those parts because you know the other parts are true.

but i agree with you that if a person says "look this is true because this report tells the truth" and then say "but look this isn't true because this report is false and unnacceptable as being truthful." then it's having their cake and eating it really.

you do have a point there.

however it doesn't mean that nothing in the report is untrue. (obviously)

i'm just interested in what your answer to the below question is, just on a personal level:

.....questioned the TRCT's credibility and its ability to stay neutral, especially since it had been set up by a military-installed government.

as a reasonable person, is this something you would question and be wary about?

i think i've been pretty reasonable and balanced in my response to you.

so would you answer the question i've put to you?

[edwinchester]

Robert Amsterdam, who now works as legal counsel for the red-shirt Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship (DAAD), slammed the TRCT for suggesting in its report that former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra end his political activities.

Does Robert Amsterdam have a work permit, if he does not, than he should be arrested and punished. In accordance with the labor law.

Since when has living and working out of London required a Thai work permit?

He would officially need one if he made any televised statements or held any meetings here on Thai soil. Cos then its working in Thailand. There are 14 day work permits available for just these circumstances.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Can't see that being much of a problem under the current regime.

[tlansford]

If the TV or Radio station is inciting violence and broadcasting fake video/audio, then I don't think it should be online.

I agree entirely. Informative media have the freedom to interpret facts as they see fit, but they have a responsibility not produce and disseminate lies, especially after it has been scientifically proven that the lie is a lie. (I'm specifically referring to the false Abhisit "ฆ่ามันหมด" voice clip.)

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

OK, same one I'm thinking of.

Well, shameless that would have been - certainly he would have known that the audio had been faked. I can see where some UDD radio jock might not know - it was supposedly a very convincing job - but Jatuporn would have known about the analysis that proved it to be a fake.

[Buchholz]

I agree entirely. Informative media have the freedom to interpret facts as they see fit, but they have a responsibility not produce and disseminate lies, especially after it has been scientifically proven that the lie is a lie. (I'm specifically referring to the false Abhisit "ฆ่ามันหมด" voice clip.)

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

Yes, it was August 2009.

There's a thread on it:

Riot Audio Tape Doctored : PM

http://www.thaivisa....pe-doctored-pm/

that was well summarized by this post

webfact

Admin

67,740 posts

Posted 2009-08-28 09:43:25

Cunning stunt with opposite success.

This dirty attempt to manipulate will backfire at the Red brigades and its leaders!

Now they will lose the last straw of "credibility" (if the latter had ever existed)

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry2972279

[tlansford]

If the TV or Radio station is inciting violence and broadcasting fake video/audio, then I don't think it should be online.

I agree entirely. Informative media have the freedom to interpret facts as they see fit, but they have a responsibility not produce and disseminate lies, especially after it has been scientifically proven that the lie is a lie. (I'm specifically referring to the false Abhisit "ฆ่ามันหมด" voice clip.)

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

Hi - just a check - are you certain that it was jatuporn and that he had it played in 2010?

I was looking back at the information when the tape came out, and Jatuporn at the time did not play it at a rally because they had learned that the tape was doctored. That would make it very odd for him to play the tape, especially Jatuporn to do it, 7 months later at a rally.

[Insight]

I agree entirely. Informative media have the freedom to interpret facts as they see fit, but they have a responsibility not produce and disseminate lies, especially after it has been scientifically proven that the lie is a lie. (I'm specifically referring to the false Abhisit "ฆ่ามันหมด" voice clip.)

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

Hi - just a check - are you certain that it was jatuporn and that he had it played in 2010?

I was looking back at the information when the tape came out, and Jatuporn at the time did not play it at a rally because they had learned that the tape was doctored. That would make it very odd for him to play the tape, especially Jatuporn to do it, 7 months later at a rally.

It was definitely played at the rally in 2010. I cannot recall who was on the stage when it was played, but it was most certainly played.

[tlansford]

- deleted for quote limits -

when you refer to the faked Abhisit clip, do you mean the one released in August of 2009?

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly when it was released... but that sounds about right, it was referring to the 2009 protest. I do know that it was re-played by Jatuporn to incite more hatred on the Rajprasong stage in late April 2010, which is just shameless.

Hi - just a check - are you certain that it was jatuporn and that he had it played in 2010?

I was looking back at the information when the tape came out, and Jatuporn at the time did not play it at a rally because they had learned that the tape was doctored. That would make it very odd for him to play the tape, especially Jatuporn to do it, 7 months later at a rally.

It was definitely played at the rally in 2010. I cannot recall who was on the stage when it was played, but it was most certainly played.

Well, like I said, that would have been really stupid as everyone knew that it was faked.

But as far as I know, it has never been discovered who faked it.

[otherstuff1957]

The irony of this thread is that we have 100 posts discussing a report that the Thai Reds have dismissed as being completely wrong (except for the parts that they agree with) and the Democrats/Yellows/Army have been almost completely silent about.

I really don't think that this report or the UNs reaction to it are really going to have any impact on politics in Thailand.......... it's too balanced and impartial.

The forum Reds haven't learned something: They believe in the stated Redshirt ideals. They believe in justice and fairness and democracy...

but the Thai Redshirt leaders believe that Thaksin will pay them to say these things (probably correctly) and most of the Thai Redshirt followers believe (probably incorrectly) that Thaksin actually cares for them.

[Buchholz]

Initial political reaction to the report was mostly negative.

The strongest response came from the Red Shirt/UDD camp, the core supporters of the exiled Mr. Thaksin who were protesting in 2010.

At the report's launch, Red Shirt activists let loose a barrage of questions that were left unanswered at the close of the event.

Later, their representatives rejected all the recommendations

Wall Street Journal - September 19, 2012

*bold added*

Rather than the Red Shirts' rejection of all the recommendations, today's Suan Dusit Poll reveals 53.70% of the population said they agreed with the report.

.

[Buchholz]

Meanwhile, in light of its rejection of the TRCT report, the Pheu Thai Party has today stated a demand for a new investigation to be undertaken.

.

[Buchholz]

Thai MPs reject 2010 riot findings

Some Thai MPs in the ruling Puea Thai party are refusing to accept the findings of a Truth for Reconciliation Commission into the 2010 anti-government riots in which more than 90 people died. The Commission spent two years investigating, and found responsibility for the riots lay with both the government in power in 2010 and Red Shirt supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

But Professor Kanok Wongtrangan, Democrat Party MP, Member of the House Committee on National Reconciliation, told Connect Asia, that's caused fury among some Pueu Thai Party members. "First of all they rejected that the Red Shirts was one of the root causes of the incident," Wongtrangan said.

"Second they reject the existence of the Black Shirts or the black dressed persons who are involved in the killings of the people."

Continued:

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2012-09-24/thai-mps-reject-2010-riot-findings/1019916

Radio Australia - Sept. 24, 2012

.

[GentlemanJim]

It all begs the question, what can we do? I started looking at places in NZ today.

Kinda scary that these science fiction writers saw Thailand in 2040.

[philw]

Initial political reaction to the report was mostly negative.

The strongest response came from the Red Shirt/UDD camp, the core supporters of the exiled Mr. Thaksin who were protesting in 2010.

At the report's launch, Red Shirt activists let loose a barrage of questions that were left unanswered at the close of the event.

Later, their representatives rejected all the recommendations

Wall Street Journal - September 19, 2012

*bold added*

Rather than the Red Shirts' rejection of all the recommendations, today's Suan Dusit Poll reveals 53.70% of the population said they agreed with the report.

.

Which means that the polarisation of the country continues with effectively a 50:50 split in the overall politics and no sign of the emnity abating.

Time for some chaps to reconsider.

[Buchholz]

Initial political reaction to the report was mostly negative.

The strongest response came from the Red Shirt/UDD camp, the core supporters of the exiled Mr. Thaksin who were protesting in 2010.

At the report's launch, Red Shirt activists let loose a barrage of questions that were left unanswered at the close of the event.

Later, their representatives rejected all the recommendations

Wall Street Journal - September 19, 2012

*bold added*

Rather than the Red Shirts' rejection of all the recommendations, today's Suan Dusit Poll reveals 53.70% of the population said they agreed with the report.

Which means that the polarisation of the country continues with effectively a 50:50 split in the overall politics and no sign of the emnity abating.

Time for some chaps to reconsider.

Perhaps the new investigation that Pheu Thai Party is pushing for will go a long way in obtaining reconciliation. In the meantime, they can put a hold on that reconciliation for another couple years until the new investigation is concluded with findings more to their liking.

Meanwhile, in light of its rejection of the TRCT report, the Pheu Thai Party has today stated a demand for a new investigation to be undertaken.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Buchholz

[philw]

Absolutely.

Little chance for reconciliation I think.

It's clearly not in the hearts of the major players for either side.

[Buchholz]

Absolutely.

Little chance for reconciliation I think.

It's clearly not in the hearts of the major players for either side.

I haven't seen the opposition side rejecting all the TRCT recommendations.

Seems they are with the majority of the country that agrees with the report.

.

[hellodolly]

Initial political reaction to the report was mostly negative.

The strongest response came from the Red Shirt/UDD camp, the core supporters of the exiled Mr. Thaksin who were protesting in 2010.

At the report's launch, Red Shirt activists let loose a barrage of questions that were left unanswered at the close of the event.

Later, their representatives rejected all the recommendations

Wall Street Journal - September 19, 2012

*bold added*

Rather than the Red Shirts' rejection of all the recommendations, today's Suan Dusit Poll reveals 53.70% of the population said they agreed with the report.

.

Which means that the polarisation of the country continues with effectively a 50:50 split in the overall politics and no sign of the emnity abating.

Time for some chaps to reconsider.

On one side at least the other side just resist's it out of hand. The only time we are going to see a reconciliation is when Thaksin is dead and we have a whole new set of politicians. One's whom must take responsibility for their actions not thumb their nose at the nation because they are a minister and have a get out of jail pass. No matter what party they come from. This government is not even close to that yet it will be at least two more elections before we see a Government concerned about the welfare of the people.

That is my opinion.

[Thaddeus]

But Professor Kanok Wongtrangan, Democrat Party MP, Member of the House Committee on National Reconciliation, told Connect Asia, that's caused fury among some Pueu Thai Party members. "First of all they rejected that the Red Shirts was one of the root causes of the incident," Wongtrangan said.

"Second they reject the existence of the Black Shirts or the black dressed persons who are involved in the killings of the people."

It is statements like these that make your head spin (mine anyway).... it starts with "we dun nuffin rong" which is about as inaccurate as you can get, and then moves on to denying the existence of a group that one of their own leaders claimed to know who they were.

It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable.

[tlansford]

But Professor Kanok Wongtrangan, Democrat Party MP, Member of the House Committee on National Reconciliation, told Connect Asia, that's caused fury among some Pueu Thai Party members. "First of all they rejected that the Red Shirts was one of the root causes of the incident," Wongtrangan said.

"Second they reject the existence of the Black Shirts or the black dressed persons who are involved in the killings of the people."

It is statements like these that make your head spin (mine anyway).... it starts with "we dun nuffin rong" which is about as inaccurate as you can get, and then moves on to denying the existence of a group that one of their own leaders claimed to know who they were.

It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable.

"It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable."

In this case, the person spouting it is a Dem MP.

[Buchholz]

But Professor Kanok Wongtrangan, Democrat Party MP, Member of the House Committee on National Reconciliation, told Connect Asia, that's caused fury among some Pueu Thai Party members. "First of all they rejected that the Red Shirts was one of the root causes of the incident," Wongtrangan said.

"Second they reject the existence of the Black Shirts or the black dressed persons who are involved in the killings of the people."

It is statements like these that make your head spin (mine anyway).... it starts with "we dun nuffin rong" which is about as inaccurate as you can get, and then moves on to denying the existence of a group that one of their own leaders claimed to know who they were.

It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable.

"It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable."

In this case, the person spouting it is a Dem MP.

As you're fond of saying, rather than casting aspersions on the messenger, what about the message he brings?

Do you also reject the existence of the black shirts?

.

[Thaddeus]

But Professor Kanok Wongtrangan, Democrat Party MP, Member of the House Committee on National Reconciliation, told Connect Asia, that's caused fury among some Pueu Thai Party members. "First of all they rejected that the Red Shirts was one of the root causes of the incident," Wongtrangan said.

"Second they reject the existence of the Black Shirts or the black dressed persons who are involved in the killings of the people."

It is statements like these that make your head spin (mine anyway).... it starts with "we dun nuffin rong" which is about as inaccurate as you can get, and then moves on to denying the existence of a group that one of their own leaders claimed to know who they were.

It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable.

"It really does beggar belief, and I am left with only two choices, either the individuals that spout this are very clever manipulators of the herd, or they are just as dumb as the herd..... neither choice is either wholesome or palatable."

In this case, the person spouting it is a Dem MP.

Who is reporting on the PTP members claims, those are the basis of my comment, is that so hard to work out!